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UK PoliGAF |OT3| - Strong and Stable Government? No. Coalition Of Chaos!

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Spaghetti

Member
That's not what the report is recommending though? The recommendation is that people be paid electronically instead of in cash so that it's easier to track their earnings and tax them accordingly.

Like, I am not at all a fan of May or the Tories, but there is really nothing wrong with this proposal.
Again, nobody is advocating not paying taxes.

I said "if this is implemented in the next few years without a rebalancing of other tax plans".

Corporation tax restructuring has to come first. This is hardly revolutionary socialism. It was only 12 years ago that a corporation with profits over £1.5 million paid 30%.
 

CCS

Banned
Again, nobody is advocating not paying taxes.

I said "if this is implemented in the next few years without a rebalancing of other tax plans".

Corporation tax restructuring has to come first. This is hardly revolutionary socialism. It was only 12 years ago that a corporation with profits over £1.5 million paid 30%.

Surely ensuring people pay the tax they should (and this includes closing loopholes used by corporations and high net worth individuals) should take priority over changing the rates they should be paying?

Basically, I'm advocating for the government focusing on both the recommendation in the report and making it harder for those with lots of money to legally avoid tax, after which focus on adjusting the actual rate of tax.
 
Like, I am not at all a fan of May or the Tories, but there is really nothing wrong with this proposal.

It's the same magician shit though. Constantly pointing us in the wrong direction...

IT'S THE IMMIGRANTS, IT'S THE DISABLED, IT'S THE CASH IN HAND WORKERS, IT'S THE BENEFITS SCROUNGERS, IT'S NHS TOURISTS.

It's fucking nothing.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Surely ensuring people pay the tax they should (and this includes closing loopholes used by corporations and high net worth individuals) should take priority over changing the rates they should be paying?

Basically, I'm advocating for the government focusing on both the recommendation in the report and making it harder for those with lots of money to legally avoid tax, after which focus on adjusting the actual rate of tax.
People who work cash in hand cannot be the first priority for raising tax revenues when corporation tax sinks to a 17% flat rate.
 
Again, nobody is advocating not paying taxes.

I said "if this is implemented in the next few years without a rebalancing of other tax plans".

Corporation tax restructuring has to come first. This is hardly revolutionary socialism. It was only 12 years ago that a corporation with profits over £1.5 million paid 30%.

Why though? If I'm in a leaky boat I'm going to prioritise fixing the leaks over deciding how big of a bucket I should be using to chuck water over the side.
 

CCS

Banned
People who work cash in hand cannot be the first priority for raising tax revenues when corporation tax sinks to a 17% flat rate.

You didn't read my post. My point is that the priority has to be ensuring that those who aren't paying the tax they should do, regardless of how much they're earning. Reducing loopholes for corporations will do more to bring in tax rather than increasing the tax rate on them.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Why though? If I'm in a leaky boat I'm going to prioritise fixing the leaks over deciding how big of a bucket I should be using to chuck water over the side.

This analogy doesn't work, though. Cash-in-hand and tax avoidance are both leaks, but cash-in-hand is a few punctures and tax avoidance blew the bloody doors off.
 
This analogy doesn't work, though. Cash-in-hand and tax avoidance are both leaks, but cash-in-hand is a few punctures and tax avoidance blew the bloody doors off.

I'm not talking about cash-in-hand vs tax avoidance though. I'm talking about cash-in-hand vs tax rate variation. Spaghetti keeps talking about raising corporation tax, as if this prevents that from happening. I take your point on the previous page about a finite number of legislative hours in the day, but surely raising a tax rate is a stroke of Hammond's pen?
 

Theonik

Member
This analogy doesn't work, though. Cash-in-hand and tax avoidance are both leaks, but cash-in-hand is a few punctures and tax avoidance blew the bloody doors off.
To put it into perspective HMRC estimated the tax gap in 2016 to be about £34bn while the figure could of course be either more or less since they don't know what they aren't collecting. Same applies to the cash in hand estimates!
 
To put it into perspective HMRC estimated the tax gap in 2016 to be about £34bn while the figure could of course be either more or less since they don't know what they aren't collecting. Same applies to the cash in hand estimates!

I've always wondered how they work that out. Same with things like benefit fraud. Like, if they knew about it, wouldn't they stop it? And if they don't, how do they estimate its existence?
 

CCS

Banned
This is going nowhere, so lemme ask this; why are some of you okay with a 17% flat corporation tax rate?

I'm "okay" with it in that calibrating corporation tax in order maximise revenue is tricky given the effects on investment and location decisions, and so there are more reliable and simpler gains to be had from prioritising tackling corporate tax avoidance.
 
This is going nowhere, so lemme ask this; why are some of you okay with a 17% flat corporation tax rate?

Well...I'm not really. I think 17% is fine for small businesses though. God knows it's hard enough starting a business these days, there's so many expenses to cover. I'd be quite happy for it to ramp up somewhat for larger concerns. We do it for personal income so I don't see the problem with applying the same sort of reasoning to businesses too.

Edit:

I've always wondered how they work that out. Same with things like benefit fraud. Like, if they knew about it, wouldn't they stop it? And if they don't, how do they estimate its existence?

I estimate the gypsy economy to be worth around £82bn, and not a penny paid in tax smh
 

Zaph

Member
I've always wondered how they work that out. Same with things like benefit fraud. Like, if they knew about it, wouldn't they stop it? And if they don't, how do they estimate its existence?

I imagine you can get a very, very rough estimate by looking at how much money is moving through the economy, consumer spend, GDP etc, and work backwards?
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
I've always wondered how they work that out. Same with things like benefit fraud. Like, if they knew about it, wouldn't they stop it? And if they don't, how do they estimate its existence?

As to why they don't stop it, it's almost certainly because it'll cost more to police it than they'd make back from the increased revenue.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I would personally advocate eliminating all tax and replacing it with LVT but that's just me. 🤔

Isn't enough. The sum value of the UK's unimproved land is approximately £8trn; the rental value is approximately £160bn. The UK's net government spending is just over £790bn, so you've got a £630bn shortfall.

LVT is great and desirable but there would need to be other forms of taxation.
 

Theonik

Member
I've always wondered how they work that out. Same with things like benefit fraud. Like, if they knew about it, wouldn't they stop it? And if they don't, how do they estimate its existence?
Well if you're really curious you can read their 74 page report on this subject here as well as their breakdown.

Isn't enough. The sum value of the UK's unimproved land is approximately £8trn; the rental value is approximately £160bn. The UK's net government spending is just over £790bn, so you've got a £630bn shortfall.

LVT is great and desirable but there would need to be other forms of taxation.
I wouldn't necessarily advocate the immediate elimination of other forms of taxation but eventually all other tax can and should be abolished. One tax I would immediately abolish though is VAT. For the time being I'd leave corporate tax be, maybe consider an increase to 20% but the trouble with corporate tax is it's difficult to enforce progressive taxation because unlike individuals that are indivisible corporations can and would exploit subsidiaries to lower their rate if they had progressive taxes. Income tax brackets could also be tweaked but the trouble with those and well same trouble with corporate tax is they introduce deadweight loss into the economy, they mostly impact business especially if you go for higher incomes. (If my tax increases by 1% I'm getting that back in a payrise pronto)
 
As to why they don't stop it, it's almost certainly because it'll cost more to police it than they'd make back from the increased revenue.

I imagine that's true, but the difficulty (read: expense) must come in gathering the evidence to demonstrate it's occurring - which you'd think they'd need to do to some degree to get these statistics.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Fine, but only out of respect for Crab, who's just opened up about his nomadic lifestyle on this very page.

I was in university, it was cheaper than halls and I didn't have to pay council tax.
 

theaface

Member
I'm "okay" with it in that calibrating corporation tax in order maximise revenue is tricky given the effects on investment and location decisions.

Pure Tory propaganda. It isn't tricky at all. The UK's corporation tax rates are significantly lower than all other G7 nations and would've remained this way even under Labour's proposals, so why is it so unpalatable to make that change?

If the Brexit shitstorm wasn't happening, what reason would companies have for looking elsewhere if the UK still offered the most competitive (albeit slighter higher than previously) rates? By any other metric pre-Brexit, the UK was a very attractive proposition for businesses, particularly as the gateway between the US and the EU.

Incidentally the Tory line about scaring off companies from investing in the UK if we hike up corporation tax is, frankly, hilarious. They talk the same talk about taxation and scaring companies away at the same time as going full steam ahead with a hard Brexit and scaring off everyone.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Students don't pay that on land mate :-D

Discount only, not everyone was a student where I was thinking of staying. One of my mates wanted to houseshare but he'd gone into full-time work while I decided to continue the pauper's life.
 
When the law was first considered they didn't take hermit crabs into consideration so they tax them for both the shell and the dwelling.

I'm reminded of that bit in Breaking Bad where the junkyard guy is arguing with Hank that the motorhome is actually a "domicile".

Discount only, not everyone was a student where I was thinking of staying. One of my mates wanted to houseshare but he'd gone into full-time work while I decided to continue the pauper's life.

Ah, fair dos. I've thought about houseboat life sometimes. They're like the mirage of rightmove.com - the only thing that'll show up in Bristol city centre for under £150k. The missus wouldn't go for it though.

Erm, I'll stop derailling now.
 

Theonik

Member
Discount only, not everyone was a student where I was thinking of staying. One of my mates wanted to houseshare but he'd gone into full-time work while I decided to continue the pauper's life.
You could always be that guy and rightfully claim that students are exempt from council tax and have your mates pay for your bit.
 

Horsefly

Member
My understanding was that the council would split the tax by the number of residents and then discount the portions that applied to the students.

Pretty sure something similar happened in my life.. hard to be sure though
 

Theonik

Member
My understanding was that the council would split the tax by the number of residents and then discount the portions that applied to the students.

Pretty sure something similar happened in my life.. hard to be sure though
No. Council tax is levied on the property based on its improved value (is supposed to be but the system used is pretty bad but that's a different matter)

They base this on the assumption of two adults, for council tax purposes, living in the property. When a student comes in they are excluded from the count. If there is less than 2 adults left after all people are removed you get a 25% discount so in the worst case you could be two adults living in a 4 bedroom house, paying tax on the value of that, but get no discount on council tax while the students only add to the value of the house through their occupancy of the two rooms but are not liable for any tax. Or even worse actually 1 working person with 3 students would still have to pay 75% of the tax and be solely liable for all of it.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Ah, fair dos. I've thought about houseboat life sometimes. They're like the mirage of rightmove.com - the only thing that'll show up in Bristol city centre for under £150k. The missus wouldn't go for it though.

It was pretty fun tbh, but wouldn't recommend it for more than one person, it gets super cramped.
 

Horsefly

Member
No. Council tax is levied on the property based on its improved value (is supposed to be but the system used is pretty bad but that's a different matter)

They base this on the assumption of two adults, for council tax purposes, living in the property. When a student comes in they are excluded from the count. If there is less than 2 adults left after all people are removed you get a 25% discount so in the worst case you could be two adults living in a 4 bedroom house, paying tax on the value of that, but get no discount on council tax while the students only add to the value of the house through their occupancy of the two rooms but are not liable for any tax. Or even worse actually 1 working person with 3 students would still have to pay 75% of the tax and be solely liable for all of it.

Ah right, that makes sense... and now that you've said that it's put some clarity around what I was referring to as well :D
 

CCS

Banned
Pure Tory propaganda. It isn't tricky at all. The UK's corporation tax rates are significantly lower than all other G7 nations and would've remained this way even under Labour's proposals, so why is it so unpalatable to make that change?

If the Brexit shitstorm wasn't happening, what reason would companies have for looking elsewhere if the UK still offered the most competitive (albeit slighter higher than previously) rates? By any other metric pre-Brexit, the UK was a very attractive proposition for businesses, particularly as the gateway between the US and the EU.

Incidentally the Tory line about scaring off companies from investing in the UK if we hike up corporation tax is, frankly, hilarious. They talk the same talk about taxation and scaring companies away at the same time as going full steam ahead with a hard Brexit and scaring off everyone.

Corporation tax revenue as a % of GDP in the UK has only a minimal correlation with the actual corporation tax rate. It's nowhere near as simple as you are painting it.
 

theaface

Member
Corporation tax revenue as a % of GDP in the UK has only a minimal correlation with the actual corporation tax rate. It's nowhere near as simple as you are painting it.

I wasn't talking about GDP and taxation revenue, you are. My argument is simple; UK-based corporations pay significantly less tax as a percentage of profit than other wealthy nations, so why shouldn't we increase the rate?

0128_corp_tax_rates-full.gif


What is complex about the above?
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Corporation tax revenue as a % of GDP in the UK has only a minimal correlation with the actual corporation tax rate. It's nowhere near as simple as you are painting it.

In a competitive market, the amount of profit at any given point should be almost entirely random, so you're looking for the correlation between t(pi) and t where (pi) has a random distribution. You're not going to see that relationship until you have a rather large sample!
 

CCS

Banned
I wasn't talking about GDP and taxation revenue, you are. My argument is simple; UK-based corporations pay significantly less tax as a percentage of profit than other wealthy nations, so why shouldn't we increase the rate?

0128_corp_tax_rates-full.gif


What is complex about the above?

And my point is that there's no point in raising the tax rate just for the sake of raising it. The corporation tax rate should be set to whatever level maximises tax revenue.

In a competitive market, the amount of profit at any given point should be almost entirely random, so you're looking for the correlation between t(pi) and t where (pi) has a random distribution. You're not going to see that relationship until you have a rather large sample!

Fair point, still think my argument holds :p
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
I imagine that's true, but the difficulty (read: expense) must come in gathering the evidence to demonstrate it's occurring - which you'd think they'd need to do to some degree to get these statistics.

As the chaps above have said, they work out that there's a shortfall via the amount of money moving around and how much of that is unaccounted for. It's fuzzy and not 100% accurate, but it gives you an idea.

In terms of stopping it, you're talking about evidence gathering on a far more granular level over a long period of time. It's the same reason why benefit fraud is so rarely stopped except in the most ridiculously high value and blatant cases. You could assign a fraud officer to a window cleaner and end up spending £50k to get back £2,000.
 

theaface

Member
And my point is that there's no point in raising the tax rate just for the sake of raising it.

Well, of course. The same logic would apply to any form of taxation. Why do we have taxes at all? To fund public services obviously. And everybody knows that the government currently collects less money than it needs to spend which is, of course, problematic. So you have to make choices about how to balance the scales. You could, for example:

1. Cut your spending
2. Increase income tax
3. Increase corporation tax
3. Close loopholes and exploits within the taxation system

Now, the right answer is probably a bit of all of the above in moderation and targeted in the right way. For example, number 2 doesn't seem fair to expand an income tax band to encompass the very poorest in society, but does seem fairer to ask the uber-rich top 5% to pay a little bit more out of their vast sums of wealth.

We've seen from the last 7 years what happens when you only go after number 1. It doesn't work. Things have a breaking point. So the answer must be that you need to boost your income somehow.

So again, I ask you, is the right way to do that to go after the 'pennies' with things like the bedroom tax and abolishing cash-in-hand payment, OR go after more substantial revenues by increasing taxation on corporations who both already exploit the system and currently enjoy a significantly reduced tax rate compared to our G7 peers?

How can you defend NOT doing that? How is that raising taxes purely for the sake of it?
 

Uzzy

Member
BBC? More like the Biased Bastard Conservatives!

Bastards Broadcasting Communism more like.

So it looks like there's a desire amongst MPs to stay in EURATOM now. Which is good. The only problem is that we've already given formal notice to leave it, and it's quite possible the only way to stop us leaving it would be to amend or revoke the Article 50 notification.

That'd be a fun can of worms to open up.
 

TimmmV

Member
It was overwhelmingly one party and one age group in particular though. I disagree with cyclops here, I think it's definitely branded as a conservative led issue. After all, the fact the campaign turned into a blue on blue fight was one of the big problems according to the analysis.

I also think that as the older generation who voted for this die off, it's going to be natural to blame the party of old people for this.

I hope you're right! Just don't have much faith this will tar the Tories for very long, because basically nothing ever really does :(
 

twofoldd

Member
Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) visa application fee (standard service, not priority/premium), by year:

2007: £750
2008: £750 (no increase)
2009: £820 (9.3% increase)
2010: £840 (2.4% increase)
2011: £972 (8.6% increase)
2012: £991 (2% increase)
2013: £1051 (6% increase)
2014: £1093 (4% increase)
2015: £1500 (37% increase)
2016: £1875 (25% increase)
2017: £2297 (22.5% increase)

Supposedly will rise to £3,250 in 2019.

Scared to think how much it will be in 2022 if my wife and I decide to stick around. Non EU visa fees are fucked up.
 
Supposedly will rise to £3,250 in 2019.

Scared to think how much it will be in 2022 if my wife and I decide to stick around. Non EU visa fees are fucked up.

<sigh> Tell me about it. Also all the money you spend getting to the point where you can even apply for ILR (NHS surcharge, anyone?). It's like they've found the one fee that they can just increase indefinitely.
 
Do you want to remember something depressing? Especially if you're travelling any time soon.

10 years ago you got over $2 for a single £1!
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=10Y

Now it's just $1.28 for a £1.

And 10 years ago you got 1.48 Euros for a single £1.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

Now it's just 1.12 Euros for a £1.

The 2008 crash and the bank bailouts + quantitative easing fucked the pound enough as it was. Brexit is just the ugly icing on the toxic cake.

I'm all set for a very expensive European holiday in a couple of weeks.

To be fair though, 2007 wasn't real, as we found out in 2008.
 

Dougald

Member
<sigh> Tell me about it. Also all the money you spend getting to the point where you can even apply for ILR (NHS surcharge, anyone?). It's like they've found the one fee that they can just increase indefinitely.

A friend of mine nearly got deported for being £1 under the minimum bank balance for a single day. A man who is a lawyer and pays tens of thousands in tax a year

He would have been deported as well were he not a lawyer



Do you want to remember something depressing? Especially if you're travelling any time soon.

10 years ago you got over $2 for a single £1!
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=10Y

Now it's just $1.28 for a £1.

And 10 years ago you got 1.48 Euros for a single £1.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

Now it's just 1.12 Euros for a £1.

The 2008 crash and the bank bailouts + quantitative easing fucked the pound enough as it was. Brexit is just the ugly icing on the toxic cake.

I'm all set for a very expensive European holiday in a couple of weeks.

It's made all my USD investments look like I've made a huge profit though
 

twofoldd

Member
<sigh> Tell me about it. Also all the money you spend getting to the point where you can even apply for ILR (NHS surcharge, anyone?). It's like they've found the one fee that they can just increase indefinitely.

Yeah. The system is horrible and a complete mess.

The fees are exorbitant (they actually make a decent amount of money on settlement visas - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/606616/Unit_cost_table_2017.pdf), communication is horrible (only way to reach UKVI is to pay £5.48 to email them or pay £1.3x per minute to ring them, and they're unable to give any information anyway), the application forms and supporting documents are confusing, and the system is slow as hell (paid £600 to get my wife's visa in 15 working days - on working day 61 and still waiting with no way to escalate or complain - just gotta wait).

And it's probably going to keep getting worse still over time. :\
 
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