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[Neff]

So you're saying that Sony/ND mislead people deliberately?

I'm saying that ND showed people what they wanted to see- an impossible dream.

 

[Dictator93]

Its far from the best PPAA solution

WebMs are bigger so open in the new page, for even better comparison.

Ryse
http://a.pomf.se/owwgio.webm
http://a.pomf.se/vrbhfg.webm

Uncharted 4
http://a.pomf.se/tjecun.webm

And i recorded it in around 20fps [need to finally get a time to order a PC] and postAA like SMAA T1x scales with framerate, so it would even look better in 30 and the best in 60hz.

Ps. Ryse one is without motion blur!

Indeed.

 

[RooMHM]

So you're saying that Sony/ND mislead people deliberately?

Of course it s so obvious. So many fanbiys and people willing to forgive anything, the potential backlash is just ridiculously inferior to the amount of hype and blind good press it got. It s just pure lying.

 

[Ricky_R]

I'm saying that ND showed people what they wanted to see- an impossible dream.

Is that a yes?

 

[Winterfang]

Fuck this is just like the MCC thread that got bumped. People just taking the piss LOL.

 

[Synth]

and see, that's the thing. knowing that these are new generation consoles you'd think that 60fps could be made possible alongside 1080p resolution, WITHOUT having to sacrifice graphics.

This is literally impossible, regardless of what specs you have.

 

[The Artisan]

This is literally impossible, regardless of what specs you have.

PC games haven't been doing it?

 

[vesvci]

Of course it s so obvious. So many fanbiys and people willing to forgive anything, the potential backlash is just ridiculously inferior to the amount of hype and blind good press it got. It s just pure lying.

Oh yea, because we know of the horrible and awful games that come out of Naughty Dog. Awful, just horrible games.

 

[No Love]

thanks.

and see, that's the thing. knowing that these are new generation consoles you'd think that 60fps could be made possible alongside 1080p resolution, WITHOUT having to sacrifice graphics.

driveclub is a great game though. we'll just have to wait and see when the wizards (ND) put out their final product to see what the Ps4 is truly capable of.

You need to think logically, as most people haven't been: How are you going to get 60 fps and 1080p WITHOUT sacrificing graphics? It literally makes no sense. You're on a closed paltform. You have X amount of resources. You can distribute them to A, B, and C. There has to be a balance.

There is no magic "button" that gets you 1080p AND 60 fps. Here's why: No matter what, no matter how powerful the system is, you can ALWAYS sacrifice resolution and FPS in order to get better asset quality (textures, models, geometry, etc).

I wish people would use their brains and realize it's not a lack of talent, it's not because it's ND's first game. If they want to push the envelope, then they have to cut it down to 30 FPS. It's simple.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Its far from the best PPAA solution

WebMs are bigger so open in the new page, for even better comparison.

Ryse
http://a.pomf.se/owwgio.webm
http://a.pomf.se/vrbhfg.webm

Uncharted 4
http://a.pomf.se/tjecun.webm

And i recorded it in around 20fps [need to finally get a time to order a PC] and postAA like SMAA T1x scales with framerate, so it would even look better in 30 and the best in 60hz.

Ps. Ryse one is without motion blur!

Okay I see that there. Still things to improve. Vegetation looks flatter and more scraggy in Ryse though.

 

[viveks86]

I'm sure ND are very aware of what they can and can't do regarding hardware limitations.

They are not sure. They said so themselves in their last podcast. No idea how you are sure then.

And I think (and many also realistically thought so at the time) that a 20 hour game which looked as good as the E3 demo would be a financial and technical impossibility.

Ok? Just like anybody is skeptical when they see something unprecedented, even if it's possible.

But who cares? It probably did its intended job.

How did it do its intended job if it's creating bad PR right now before game release? If positive PR affects console sales, doesn't negative PR affect it too? Or does it apply only when it suits your argument?

And on that note, what else are Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo's E3 showings for if not to generate cumulative interest in their hardware?

This is such a broad statement that one could dismiss absolutely anything shown at E3 as PR bullshit. That's a level of cynicism that I'd rather avoid since it yields nothing constructive.

 

[xxracerxx]

You need to think logically, as most people haven't been: How are you going to get 60 fps and 1080p WITHOUT sacrificing graphics? It literally makes no sense. You're on a closed paltform. You have X amount of resources. You can distribute them to A, B, and C. There has to be a balance.

There is no magic "button" that gets you 1080p AND 60 fps. Here's why: No matter what, no matter how powerful the system is, you can ALWAYS sacrifice resolution and FPS in order to get better asset quality (textures, models, geometry, etc).

I wish people would use their brains and realize it's not a lack of talent, it's not because it's ND's first game. If they want to push the envelope, then they have to cut it down to 30 FPS. It's simple.

Thank you.

 

[Synth]

PC games haven't been doing it?

No PC games haven't been doing it. Every PC in existence could put far more shit on screen at 30fps than they can at 60fps. The difference however is that many PCs are simply more powerful than any of the software they're running requires.

This same thing applies to the consoles as well, as long as they're running something simple enough to not strain them.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Yeah I didn't expect UC4 to be at 60FPS. I didn't care at all if UC4 was at 60. All UC games have been completely fine at 30. While I like 60 of course, for UC games, I just don't expect it at all, and i'm fine with it....


Then they did this.... Honestly, I don't even know why they showed us a trailer saying it ran at 60FPS and 1080p if they knew they probably wouldn't achieve that. Now I'm still fine that UC4 is probably going to be at 30FPS, but this situation just kind of irks me.

It'd be cool if it worked like TLoU Remastered.

 

[Demon Ice]

No they don't. Stop.

Yes they do. Stop.

 

[KKRT00]

Okay I see that there. Still things to improve. Vegetation looks flatter and more scraggy in Ryse though.

Put U4 webm in new tab, its greatly resized here, so shimmer is even reduced.

There is different kind of vegetation in Ryse, i just dont have time to make full comparison. You have things like this in Ryse after all and AA behaves the same.
http://i2.minus.com/iHNBi1qkJEQui.png
http://i2.minus.com/ipVqLeJyu4hNf.png
http://i6.minus.com/iVh2p7iolZHKF.png

And its flatter, because its much further away and its Low settings, so shading is even worse and LOD. I will do proper comparison in future, on new PC probably.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

You need to think logically, as most people haven't been: How are you going to get 60 fps and 1080p WITHOUT sacrificing graphics? It literally makes no sense. You're on a closed paltform. You have X amount of resources. You can distribute them to A, B, and C. There has to be a balance.

...

No PC games haven't been doing it. Every PC in existence could put far more shit on screen at 30fps than they can at 60fps. The difference however is that many PCs are simply more powerful than any of the software they're running requires.

...

These are two great, succinct, comments that lay it bare.

 

[KOHIPEET]

Th real creator of all this madness: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=142766653&postcount=1102

Funny enough it's very close to home and was supposed to be a joke

Neogaf

A GAF member made it as a joke because people were crying downgradathon!

Adding an explanation of the joke should be mandatory from now on here on GAF.

 

[RooMHM]

Oh yea, because we know of the horrible and awful games that come out of Naughty Dog. Awful, just horrible games.

This is not related at all to the matter in question.

 

[viveks86]

No they don't. Stop.

Yes they do. Stop.

Am I wrong to hope at least one of you would actually explain what you are trying to say and why?

 

[The Artisan]

You need to think logically, as most people haven't been: How are you going to get 60 fps and 1080p WITHOUT sacrificing graphics? It literally makes no sense. You're on a closed paltform. You have X amount of resources. You can distribute them to A, B, and C. There has to be a balance.

There is no magic "button" that gets you 1080p AND 60 fps. Here's why: No matter what, no matter how powerful the system is, you can ALWAYS sacrifice resolution and FPS in order to get better asset quality (textures, models, geometry, etc).

I wish people would use their brains and realize it's not a lack of talent, it's not because it's ND's first game. If they want to push the envelope, then they have to cut it down to 30 FPS. It's simple.

I understand this much, but the question I was implicating was, if the Ps4 came out with top of the line hardware, would it be able to do a higher framerate and the answer is still no.

No PC games haven't been doing it. Every PC in existence could put far more shit on screen at 30fps than they can at 60fps. The difference however is that many PCs are simply more powerful than any of the software they're running requires.

This same thing applies to the consoles as well, as long as they're running something simple enough to not strain them.

With this in mind, I don't think people shouldn't be giving the devs so much shit for not getting to 60fps. It's one thing when they say they'll do it and then shy away from that statement, but some of the things I've read and seen elsewhere is a little too much.

Uncharted's always been 30fps, 60fps would've been a great addition but if they can't do it, fine. The end product will still be a tremendous feat.

 

[rashbeep]

thanks.

and see, that's the thing. knowing that these are new generation consoles you'd think that 60fps could be made possible alongside 1080p resolution, WITHOUT having to sacrifice graphics.

Uh, no. Consoles by design are limited and you will always have to make compromises somewhere.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

It's not a wildly abstract concept.

You have a fixed amount of resources. You want more of one thing? Fine. You'll need to have less of something else.

 

[SimpleGamer]

You need to think logically, as most people haven't been: How are you going to get 60 fps and 1080p WITHOUT sacrificing graphics? It literally makes no sense. You're on a closed paltform. You have X amount of resources. You can distribute them to A, B, and C. There has to be a balance.

There is no magic "button" that gets you 1080p AND 60 fps. Here's why: No matter what, no matter how powerful the system is, you can ALWAYS sacrifice resolution and FPS in order to get better asset quality (textures, models, geometry, etc).

I wish people would use their brains and realize it's not a lack of talent, it's not because it's ND's first game. If they want to push the envelope, then they have to cut it down to 30 FPS. It's simple.

We need this at the top of the next page.

 

[vesvci]

This is not related at all to the matter in question.

You're saying that ND/Sony mislead people? I'm bringing to question the track record of ND. Have they not made great games in the past? Have they put out trashy games?

Why would they purposely mislead customers and throw away their reputation? There's a big difference on purposely misleading, and attempting to max out potential.

 

[DirtyLarry]

I don't know man, the image below shows some pretty jarring differences, so it's not just about the framerate.

Spoiler

I grabbed that image from somewhere, I'm not the author, please don't shoot.

I cannot help but envision a 12 year old kid wearing XBox Pajamas with a Sunset Overdrive hoodie on a pirated copy of Photoshop Elements on a Dell branded Alienware Laptop with a desktop image he took in Forza Horizon 2 while the Halo theme song is playing in Windows Media Player making this image in his bedroom all while his mother is telling him it is time to get ready for bed.

 

[The Artisan]

I cannot help but envision a 12 year old kid wearing XBox Pajamas with a Sunset Overdrive hoodie on a pirated copy of Photoshop Elements on a Dell branded Alienware Laptop with a desktop image he took in Forza Horizon 2 while the Halo theme song is playing in Windows Media Player making this image in his bedroom all while his mother is telling him it is time to get ready for bed.

...lol

I think it was one of gaf who made it, and it was just for kicks.

 

[RoKKeR]

I cannot help but envision a 12 year old kid wearing XBox Pajamas with a Sunset Overdrive hoodie on a pirated copy of Photoshop Elements on a Dell branded Alienware Laptop with a desktop image he took in Forza Horizon 2 while the Halo theme song is playing in Windows Media Player making this image in his bedroom all while his mother is telling him it is time to get ready for bed.

You are trying way, way too hard.

It's a joke.

 

[bananafactory]

I don't know man, the image below shows some pretty jarring differences, so it's not just about the framerate.

Spoiler

I grabbed that image from somewhere, I'm not the author, please don't shoot.

This was a joke image, SMH

 

[Hoje0308]

You need to think logically, as most people haven't been: How are you going to get 60 fps and 1080p WITHOUT sacrificing graphics? It literally makes no sense. You're on a closed paltform. You have X amount of resources. You can distribute them to A, B, and C. There has to be a balance.

There is no magic "button" that gets you 1080p AND 60 fps. Here's why: No matter what, no matter how powerful the system is, you can ALWAYS sacrifice resolution and FPS in order to get better asset quality (textures, models, geometry, etc).

I wish people would use their brains and realize it's not a lack of talent, it's not because it's ND's first game. If they want to push the envelope, then they have to cut it down to 30 FPS. It's simple.

I'm a little surprised by how often this has to be explained on a forum for enthusiasts.

 

[StevieP]

You're saying that ND/Sony mislead people? I'm bringing to question the track record of ND. Have they not made great games in the past? Have they put out trashy games?

Why would they purposely mislead customers and throw away their reputation? There's a big difference on purposely misleading, and attempting to max out potential.

I don't think anyone's implying that ND makes shitty games. They don't. Even if you're not a fan of their current output, like me (RIP Jak), one can acknowledge that they make polished and highly regarded titles.

However, game framerate targets have to be decided during your scoping stage (as in, pre production).

That trailer, like many many e3 trailers from many different companies/developers, was bullshit. It's not a bad thing to call out bullshit, even from a developer with a good track record.

 

[Portugeezer]

Heh

I am annoyed by this mostly because I was frequently using Uncharted 4 in debates about 60fps and console abilities because ND is a studio that I hold in such high regard. I feel like an idiot for saying that.

Me too, but now we know ~10 months before launch that it most likely won't be 60fps... At least now if it ever turns out to be 60fps it will be a genuine surprise.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Put U4 webm in new tab, its greatly resized here, so shimmer is even reduced.

There is different kind of vegetation in Ryse, i just dont have time to make full comparison. You have things like this in Ryse after all and AA behaves the same.
http://i2.minus.com/iHNBi1qkJEQui.png
http://i2.minus.com/ipVqLeJyu4hNf.png
http://i6.minus.com/iVh2p7iolZHKF.png

And its flatter, because its much further away and its Low settings, so shading is even worse and LOD. I will do proper comparison in future, on new PC probably.

Considering one is in a tropical location and the other is temporate, I expect U4 to have a lot more variety.

I know you are never going to admit to anything ever looking worse on a Crytek game, but I think it is pretty obvious that the vegetation is inferior. In Ryse, animations when the character interacts with the vegetation is basic and the hit detection is pretty poor, low res on plants is pretty obvious close up, grass, etc, looks pretty chunky and scraggy (well Luzula can be chunky), the geometry planes on the bushes stick out. I am being nitpicking, Ryse is stunning, but I think all these things are done better in the U4 footage.

 

[The Artisan]

I don't think anyone's implying that ND makes shitty games. They don't. Even if you're not a fan of their current output, like me (RIP Jak), one can acknowledge that they make polished and highly regarded titles.

However, game framerate targets have to be decided during your scoping stage (as in, pre production).

That trailer, like many many e3 trailers from many different companies/developers, was bullshit. It's not a bad thing to call out bullshit, even from a developer with a good track record.

He wasn't saying ND makes shitty games, he was saying ND aiming also made everyone's expectations that high. 'the following footage was captured directly from a Ps4" and then showing those visuals is directly implying that's what it is going to be like.

And I have faith it will be, minus the 60fps.

 

[phanphare]

How did it do its intended job if it's creating bad PR right now before game release? If positive PR affects console sales, doesn't negative PR affect it too? Or does it apply only when it suits your argument?

you're comparing the backlash in this thread to E3?

 

[viveks86]

you're comparing the backlash in this thread to E3?

No. I'm comparing it to the potential backlash when this becomes public knowledge. I just meant "now" as the period when people are realizing that ND may not deliver on the idea sold initially. Whenever this gets officially confirmed, people will make a lot of us for sure. You think the press won't plaster this all over the internet when it happens? Right now we are just speculating based on their uncertainty, so it will stay under the radar

 

[vesvci]

]I don't think anyone's implying that ND makes shitty games.[/B] They don't. Even if you're not a fan of their current output, like me (RIP Jak), one can acknowledge that they make polished and highly regarded titles.

However, game framerate targets have to be decided during your scoping stage (as in, pre production).

That trailer, like many many e3 trailers from many different companies/developers, was bullshit. It's not a bad thing to call out bullshit, even from a developer with a good track record.

I'm not taking it as someone implying that ND makes bad games, but my point is that if they were misleading people, why the need? Why would they need to do that? Everyone is pretty much aware of ND's abilities and quality of games. Why would they want to sell brass as gold? I don't see the need.

I think if anything, they may have been caught up in their own success. Targeted something much higher than they could achieve, and of this they may very well be guilty. Purposely misleading is a whole different ballgame.

 

[phanphare]

No. I'm comparing it to the potential backlash when this becomes public knowledge. I just meant "now" as the period when people are realizing that ND may not deliver on the idea sold initially. Whenever this gets officially confirmed, people will make a lot of us for sure. You think the press won't plaster this all over the internet when it happens? Right now we are just speculating based on their uncertainty, so it will stay under the radar

personally I don't see the gaming press giving this too much coverage but I'd definitely welcome that. informing gamers about stuff like this going on is ideally why gaming journalists should exist.

 

[KKRT00]

Considering one is in a tropical location and the other is temporate, I expect U4 to have a lot more variety.

I know you are never going to admit to anything ever looking worse on a Crytek game, but I think it is pretty obvious that the vegetation is inferior. In Ryse, animations when the character interacts with the vegetation is basic and the hit detection is pretty poor, low res on plants is pretty obvious close up, grass, etc, looks pretty chunky and scraggy (well Luzula can be chunky), the geometry planes on the bushes stick out. I am being nitpicking, Ryse is stunning, but I think all these things are done better in the U4 footage.

I dont know how You went from flatness on distant trees and my explanation that there is not only flat vegetation, so the AA doesnt flicker, to the rant about fidelity of assets.
Sure, U4 will have more varied assets, it was not rushed for launch in 1.5 year, but other thing You said is just not true, its a pity that Ryse doesnt have free camera.
Vegetation bend and clip through objects heavily on both games, no matter how You slice it.

 

[Synth]

No. I'm comparing it to the potential backlash when this becomes public knowledge. I just meant "now" as the period when people are realizing that ND may not deliver on the idea sold initially. Whenever this gets officially confirmed, people will make a lot of us for sure. You think the press won't plaster this all over the internet when it happens? Right now we are just speculating based on their uncertainty, so it will stay under the radar

I dunno... how many sales of a game do you imagine are ever actually lost as a result of our little "downgrade!" tantrums? I honestly can't imagine it being worth measuring at all.

On the other hand, show people a MGS4, Killzone 2, Motorstorm etc (not I'm not saying MGS2 was off the mark at all), and you can have a pretty big impact on how people view the console's abilities for a rather long time window... and in most cases people won't care when they look back, because some title somewhere during the console's life will probably deliver something along those lines.

e.g. Everything about the PS2's reveal, and the impact it had on the Dreamcast.

 

[Lord Error]

Its far from the best PPAA solution

WebMs are bigger so open in the new page, for even better comparison.

Ryse
http://a.pomf.se/owwgio.webm
http://a.pomf.se/vrbhfg.webm

Uncharted 4
http://a.pomf.se/tjecun.webm

And i recorded it in around 20fps [need to finally get a time to order a PC] and postAA like SMAA T1x scales with framerate, so it would even look better in 30 and the best in 60hz.

Ps. Ryse one is without motion blur, on Low so with low shading and LOD!

Ryse's PAA makes things look very blurry in comparison though. Whatever they're using in UC4 doesn't make things blurry, but resolves better than any other PPAA solution that keep image sharp looking.

 

[Lord Error]

double post.

 

[viveks86]

informing gamers about stuff like this going on is ideally why gaming journalists should exist.

We can agree on that

I dunno... how many sales of a game do you imagine are ever actually lost as a result of our little "downgrade!" tantrums? I honestly can't imagine it being worth measuring at all.

Agreed. I never believed it would have had much impact on sales one way or the other. Was using his logic to make a point.

On the other hand, show people a MGS4, Killzone 2, Motorstorm etc (not I'm not saying MGS2 was off the mark at all), and you can have a pretty big impact on how people view the console's abilities for a rather long time window... and in most cases people won't care when they look back, because some title somewhere during the console's life will probably deliver something along those lines.

e.g. Everything about the PS2's reveal, and the impact it had on the Dreamcast.

But Uncharted trailer would have had that effect even at 30 fps. How many additional console orders do you think they gained last year because UC4 was 60 and not 30? I think we are talking negligible numbers all around. Which is why I feel there is no intentional deception here.

 

[Dictator93]

Ryse's PAA makes things look very blurry in comparison though. Whatever they're using in UC4 doesn't make things blurry, but resolves better than any other PPAA solution that keep image sharp looking.

You sure about that? This screen is 1080p with Ryse Temporal AA being on. (textures on medium my Rig is VRAM limited).

I really do not think that is so very blurry.

 

[Lord Error]

You sure about that? This screen is 1080p with Ryse Temporal AA being on. (textures on medium my Rig is VRAM limited).

I really do not think that is so very blurry.

Well it has what looks like a 0.5 gaussian blur layer on top of everything. That's how it looks to me, and I know I'm not alone in that. Even KKR100 was saying that Ryse's Xbox One blurry look was more due to AA than due to it being 900P.

Very blurry was an exaggeration, but I meant that it doesn't have that crisp look.

 

[ship it]

You are trying way, way too hard.

It's a joke.

yea seriously. I think that image needs a disclaimer now.

 

[KKRT00]

Ryse's PAA makes things look very blurry in comparison though. Whatever they're using in UC4 doesn't make things blurry, but resolves better than any other PPAA solution that keep image sharp looking.

Blurriness of Ryse really depends on a level, because of different types of post-processing. Similar to why The Order looks so blurry.

Sure SMAA T1x makes image more blurry, especially on screenshots, but in gameplay its really not that blurry.
But the AA resolve is leaps and bounds over anything released. I'll take small blurriness over any aliasing any day of a week i'm not making screenshots

What a pity we cant turn off grain filter for example in Ryse, it would make clearer how much blurry is SMAA T1x.

---
This a difference basically on screenshots
http://i6.minus.com/ibhMNoZj0BdN70.png
http://i2.minus.com/i7Xy8ViQEwEGq.png

In motion its smaller.
--

Even then, the TAA has a post sharpen variable. So you can take away its softness if you desire.

Thats true, i have not experimented with sharpness command yet.
I'll maybe make comparison in future between no AA, and TAA with different level of sharpness.

 

[Dictator93]

Well it has what looks like a 0.5 gaussian blur layer on top of everything. That's how it looks to me, and I know I'm not alone in that. Even KKR100 was saying that Ryse's Xbox One blurry look was more due to AA than due to it being 900P.

Very blurry was an exaggeration, but I meant that it doesn't have that crisp look.

A crisp look can basically only be achieved by using super sampling in my experience. The trade off exist.

Even then, the TAA has a post sharpen variable. So you can take away its softness if you desire.

Thats true, i have not experimented with sharpness command yet.
I'll maybe make comparison in future between no AA, and TAA with different level of sharpness.

and SSAA please

 

[Teletraan1]

May the record show I would be TOTALLY into an optional 60-ish mode with some lower-quality components (even as an unlockable mode), assuming 60 ends up being unrealistic.

I would also like this. Scale back Drakes ball hair moving in the wind and other stupid shit like that and give me 60.

 

[Synth]

But Uncharted trailer would have had that effect even at 30 fps. How many additional console orders do you think they gained last year because UC4 was 60 and not 30? I think we are talking negligible numbers all around.

True, but I doubt it hurt at all. Uncharted 4 (with those graphics) at 60fps was a very big deal around here at the time, because it basically showed the PS4 displaying graphics miles ahead of anything shown for the Xbox One, whilst also being twice the framerate of whatever the best looking Xbox offering was shown at the time.

We, as a community, are a lot better at hyping things up, than we are about getting our disappointment across. And early into a console generation it's very easy for perceptions to be set, that last a very long time, even when circumstances change (just ask MS about that, lol).

Anyway, I'm not saying they did mislead deliberately, but I also don't think it'd be all that strange if they did. I mean, it's not like anyone working on Killzone 2, Motorstorm, Madden '06 etc really thought the final game was going to resemble what they were showing. So why show it? Because excitement > disappointment.