Can't be a watcher on the wall if there isn't a wall
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
Can't be a watcher on the wall if there isn't a wall
I always chalked that up to Cersei lying to Cat. But it's just as likely that it's just a continuity error.
Edit: Just remembered that Robert actually confirmed that they lost the child.
Wasn't it three children by Jaime? Maybe it was Robert's.
demosthenes
Member
Wasn't it three children by Jaime? Maybe it was Robert's.
The child that died, in the show was roberts.
IggyChooChoo
Member
I mean it's a big, important House in the richest part of Westeros. But frankly that castle was even bigger than I wouldve imagined it. Very cool, though.So if Sam does take over from his father how much of a fortune is he looking at here?
The castle when we saw it looked pretty fancy.
What's more likely is that Jon will dismiss Sam from the Night's Watch to take back his rightful titles because he was forcefully put into the Night's Watch without having committed a crime.
I don't think Jon has that power. However I wouldn't be surprised if the Night's Watch disbands after WW's running through them. Or if the WWs get permanently defeated, all their watches will come to an end. No WW's, wildlings are an ally now. Don't need NW.
DarkJediKnight
Member
I don't think Jon has that power. However I wouldn't be surprised if the Night's Watch disbands after WW's running through them. Or if the WWs get permanently defeated, all their watches will come to an end. No WW's, wildlings are an ally now. Don't need NW.
Jon is King and Castle Black is in the North. He has every power to dismiss the vows. Especially since he never committed a crime to be there.
Ohhhhh, very fucking interestingSo if Sam does take over from his father how much of a fortune is he looking at here?
The castle when we saw it looked pretty fancy.
DarkJediKnight
Member
I don't think Jon has that power. However I wouldn't be surprised if the Night's Watch disbands after WW's running through them. Or if the WWs get permanently defeated, all their watches will come to an end. No WW's, wildlings are an ally now. Don't need NW.
That's very possible as well. But Night's Watch is a prison system. People are sent there to service the realm instead of being put to death. It's as much a cultural significance as it is a place to keep wildings out.
DarkJediKnight
Member
I mean it's a big, important House in the richest part of Westeros. But frankly that castle was even bigger than I wouldve imagined it. Very cool, though.
Yea. The Horn Hill castle was massive. Like a built in city. Looked bigger than Highgarden or Casterly Rock.
Jon is King and Castle Black is in the North. He has every power to dismiss the vows. Especially since he never committed a crime to be there.
So I'm taking the thing about Night's Watch not taking any sides in Westerosi politics, and members deserting NW = death, as kind of a sign as a King wouldn't be allowed to come and take a member like that. Though now that I think about it, that's not really addressed (in the show, not sure about books - feel free to correct). You could say Jon's reason for denying Stannis not being "NW will kill me" as King's being allowed to, though.
Though with Jon's and Edd's relationship, it'd be all gravy.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
So I'm taking the thing about Night's Watch not taking any sides in Westerosi politics, and members deserting NW = death, as kind of a sign as a King wouldn't be allowed to come and take a member like that. Though now that I think about it, that's not really addressed (in the show, not sure about books - feel free to correct). You could say Jon's reason for denying Stannis not being "NW will kill me" as King's being allowed to, though.
Though with Jon's and Edd's relationship, it'd be all gravy.
i think grrm has said there have been people released from their vows in some fan question thing. don't remember has it been mentioned in the books themselves.
What's more likely is that Jon will dismiss Sam from the Night's Watch to take back his rightful titles because he was forcefully put into the Night's Watch without having committed a crime.
Nah that's not a thing. Lots of people join the Watch without committing crimes. Sam could've just run away to Essos if he wasn't welcome at home, joined up with the Second Sons or become a traveling mummer or I dunno maybe the Iron Bank would take a nerd like him.
Sam went north and he said the words, that was his choice. He could be released for any number of reasons but not "you were coerced into it".
Ocarina_117
Banned
The show will end with the white walker thread eradicated.
With no threat beyond the wall, I doubt there will be a need for a nights watch at all.
I also expect winter beyond the wall to cease and the lands be settled.
With no threat beyond the wall, I doubt there will be a need for a nights watch at all.
I also expect winter beyond the wall to cease and the lands be settled.
Yea. The Horn Hill castle was massive. Like a built in city. Looked bigger than Highgarden or Casterly Rock.
Horn Hill was so big no one realized their priceless family sword was stolen.
Horn Hill was so big no one realized their priceless family sword was stolen.
See, shit like that is why the season being rushed hurts
I bet Randyll Tarly would've been a legendary tantrum thrower
Nah that's not a thing. Lots of people join the Watch without committing crimes. Sam could've just run away to Essos if he wasn't welcome at home, joined up with the Second Sons or become a traveling mummer or I dunno maybe the Iron Bank would take a nerd like him.
Sam went north and he said the words, that was his choice. He could be released for any number of reasons but not "you were coerced into it".
He wasn't really coerced, rather threatened. His father was going to kill him in a "hunting accident" if he didn't join the Watch, as he believed it would be the only way for his son to gain any sort of honor is his eyes.
demosthenes
Member
Are we going to find out why Lyanna didn't tell her dad and brother she wasn't kidnapped?
Because her father was going to marry her to Robert?
John Dunbar
correct about everything
Are we going to find out why Lyanna didn't tell her dad and brother she wasn't kidnapped?
i am shocked if anyone, gurm included, can make the rhaegar/lyanna "romance" make a lick of sense. it's plot contrivance: the love story.
Stallion Dan
Member
Don't need have done a crime, you just say the vow and you join.Jon is King and Castle Black is in the North. He has every power to dismiss the vows. Especially since he never committed a crime to be there.
Lord of Castamere
Member
Horn Hill was so big no one realized their priceless family sword was stolen.
He's such a badass that he doesn't the sword. Valyrian Steel is for whimps.
i am shocked if anyone, gurm included, can make the rhaegar/lyanna "romance" make a lick of sense. it's plot contrivance: the love story.
Going to be mighty hard to make Rhaegar look like anything but a monster. And Lyanna is just a moron that got her family killed and started a war.
Because her father was going to marry her to Robert?
Great reason to start a war!
Going to be mighty hard to make Rhaegar look like anything but a monster. And Lyanna is just a moron that got her family killed and started a war.
Well the whole theory in the book-verse is that Rhaeghar read a lot of prophecies, maybe he knew of Azor Ahai and the threat of the Great Other? He had to fulfill his destiny and "save the world" so to speak through the union of ice and fire.
DarkJediKnight
Member
Because her father was going to marry her to Robert?
If I was getting married to Robert, I'd fake a kidnapping or two.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I just saw that the graphic novel adaptation of The Mystery Knight just came out. Anyone read it yet? I absolutely love the Hedge Knight and Sworn Sword gn's and this is made by the same team. I just think Mystery Knight, from what I remember, is the weakest of the three Dunk & Egg tales. But it's been a while since I read it.
Great reason to start a war!
Wars have started for far less.
Wars have started for far less.
And so the 100 year war between Gigglepoo and duckroll began.
Napalm_Frank
Member
If I was getting married to Robert, I'd fake a kidnapping or two.
Robert supposedly back then was hot as fuck doe.
Are we going to find out why Lyanna didn't tell her dad and brother she wasn't kidnapped?
She was "kidnapped" I don't think they ever saw her again until that one scene that Bran saw.
And running around trying to make the 8.Robert supposedly back then was hot as fuck doe.
Robert supposedly back then was hot as fuck doe.
Bob was definitely the partying, muscle-bound frat bro of Westeros. Was probably a good time with him around, but definitely not husband material. If you could combine all the Baratheon brothers into 1 entity, you'd probably come up with an awesome guy.
Well the whole theory in the book-verse is that Rhaeghar read a lot of prophecies, maybe he knew of Azor Ahai and the threat of the Great Other? He had to fulfill his destiny and "save the world" so to speak through the union of ice and fire.
Getting a secret annulment from your sick wife and turning your two children into bastards is pretty monstorous no matter what a prophecy said.
She was "kidnapped" I don't think they ever saw her again until that one scene that Bran saw.
She could have sent them a raven saying "I'm fine, don't start a war."
I mean it's not like Lyanna was dying of childbirth the whole dang time. It's super crazy she never sent Ned a letter.
It's pretty contrived that they just eloped and didn't bother to tell anyone after the fact. I'm trying to think of a reason and I can't. I'm not sure it sits well with me that Rhaegar managed to dissolve his marriage unilaterally either. You'd think only the king would have the authority to do that, or the high septon.
It was the high septon.It's pretty contrived that they just eloped and didn't bother to tell anyone after the fact. I'm trying to think of a reason and I can't. I'm not sure it sits well with me that Rhaegar managed to dissolve his marriage unilaterally either. You'd think only the king would have the authority to do that, or the high septon.
It's pretty contrived that they just eloped and didn't bother to tell anyone after the fact. I'm trying to think of a reason and I can't. I'm not sure it sits well with me that Rhaegar managed to dissolve his marriage unilaterally either. You'd think only the king would have the authority to do that, or the high septon.
The annulment really bothers me. We know the Targs converted to The Faith of the Seven (though they kept the incests and gave up polygamy) and we know annulments aren't allowed in that religion. Yes, the King was crazy, but if we're looking at real-world parallels (of which ASoIaF has many), King Henry VIII started a new church because he wasn't allowed to get a divorce.
It just seems way too convenient that he got an annulment.
It was the high septon.
Oh right. But then you wonder what was the high septon doing with them, or why would he collude with Rhaegar in the first place.
How do you know the Seven don't do annulments?
There'd be Lord/Ladies annulling their marriages all over the place with all the dodgy septons around if that were the case but there's been 0 mention so far, just seems pretty convenient. Legitimatising bastards seems a lot more common on the other hand.
The annulment really bothers me. We know the Targs converted to The Faith of the Seven (though they kept the incests and gave up polygamy) and we know annulments aren't allowed in that religion. Yes, the King was crazy, but if we're looking at real-world parallels (of which ASoIaF has many), King Henry VIII started a new church because he wasn't allowed to get a divorce.
It just seems way too convenient that he got an annulment.
Appears Kings can do it.
Divorce in Westeros is not common.[102] Nonetheless, a king is able to put his queen aside – even if she has given birth to his children – and marry another.[103][104]
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs
Cersei ain't a villain. She's a real person and that's all there is to it. Any SOB who says otherwise lacks empathy. The woman lost three children and her father in the space of like 3 years. Yeah she wernt a little nuts but let's give her a chance, Jamie will bring her back to reality.
Both sides amirite?
Oh right. But then you wonder what was the high septon doing with them, or why would he collude with Rhaegar in the first place.
Remember that it was speculated that Rhaegar secretly commissioned the Tourney of Harrehnall, so he could gather all of the Lords to discuss removing his father from the position of king and installing himself. It wouldn't be a stretch, at that point, for the High Septon to begin to see Rhaegar as the one he should answer to, with an inevitable change in power brewing behind the scenes.
I guess it would also follow that along with removing his father, Rhaegar would set aside Elia and marry a new queen.
The annulment really bothers me. We know the Targs converted to The Faith of the Seven (though they kept the incests and gave up polygamy) and we know annulments aren't allowed in that religion. Yes, the King was crazy, but if we're looking at real-world parallels (of which ASoIaF has many), King Henry VIII started a new church because he wasn't allowed to get a divorce.
It just seems way too convenient that he got an annulment.
From the damn books
Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"
"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."
So the High Septon has the power to annul marriages and the current High Septon in that conversation does what the ruling class tell him. So not hard to imagine the high septon in Rhaegar's day did what his crown prince wanted.
So much for the tolerant Freefolk.Cersei ain't a villain. She's a real person and that's all there is to it. Any SOB who says otherwise lacks empathy. The woman lost three children and her father in the space of like 3 years. Yeah she wernt a little nuts but let's give her a chance, Jamie will bring her back to reality.
Rhaegar was going to sacrifice a child. Only the KG would ever know it happened.It's pretty contrived that they just eloped and didn't bother to tell anyone after the fact. I'm trying to think of a reason and I can't. I'm not sure it sits well with me that Rhaegar managed to dissolve his marriage unilaterally either. You'd think only the king would have the authority to do that, or the high septon.
So is there evidence that annulments can be performed after a marriage has been consummated? Are there other children who have been de-legitimized? I know the reverse happens (Blackfyre, Ramsay Bolton, etc). I don't remember hearing anything about that but there are a bunch of books with a lot of words.
"Divorce in Westeros is not common.[77] Nonetheless, a king is able to put his queen aside even if she has given birth to his children and marry another.[78][79]"
This makes it sound like a king can get a divorce but an annulment is an entirely different matter.
"Divorce in Westeros is not common.[77] Nonetheless, a king is able to put his queen aside even if she has given birth to his children and marry another.[78][79]"
This makes it sound like a king can get a divorce but an annulment is an entirely different matter.
Dusk Soldier
Member
In medieval times, divorce and annulment were considered the same thing. They didn't have divorces like we have today, both words were used interchangeably to mean anullment.So is there evidence that annulments can be performed after a marriage has been consummated? Are there other children who have been de-legitimized? I know the reverse happens (Blackfyre, Ramsay Bolton, etc). I don't remember hearing anything about that but there are a bunch of books with a lot of words.
"Divorce in Westeros is not common.[77] Nonetheless, a king is able to put his queen aside even if she has given birth to his children and marry another.[78][79]"
This makes it sound like a king can get a divorce but an annulment is an entirely different matter.
---
What most likely happened with Rhaeghar and Lyanna is that knocked her up accidently, and kidnapped her to hide the pregnancy. While in hiding they decided to get married to legitimize their child.
In medieval times, divorce and annulment were considered the same thing. They didn't have divorces like we have today, both words were used interchangeably to mean anullment.
---
What most likely happened with Rhaeghar and Lyanna is that knocked her up accidently, and kidnapped her to hide the pregnancy. While in hiding they decided to get married to legitimize their child.
Huh. I had no idea. Does that mean Rhaegar's first two kids were de-legitimized? Or would they have been still considered true born?