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[VFX_Veteran]

Yes it does. EDIT: NVM, just saw your other post

Weren't you the guy who tried to say that there was no way Shadow Fall was using area lights prerelease, only to be floored by them in game?

Yea.. and? Area lights using SSR is pretty easy to do (you can see the shape of them in the reflection). True area lights that I was mentioning are the ones used in film.. that is, they cast soft shadows by importance sampling the area of the light.. And guess what? That's NOT in KZ:SF (or any game).

 

[ROUGE_BLOCK]

I knew The Witcher 3 could be 900p as well on ps4. I have missed some update?

I remember a thread specifying the PS4 version of the Witcher 3 was going to be in 1080p, the very same comment from CDPR stated they wanted nearly the same experience across both the consoles.

This was a couple months ago and I am a recent lurker turned member here so I'm not sure which witcher 3 thread it was.

 

[xtradi]

that's a cop out. I won't believe anything until there is credible sources. It's so easy to just create theories and drum up conspiracies based on anonymous sources. Sure, most of them end up being true in the end but it's still not valid to jump the gun.

I'll wait until this is proven true before making comments.

Then I'll wait until the AC:Unity is on sales before buying it.

Would these numbers be the same if both PCs were paired with the same laughably underpowered CPU's and maybe the games were near 100% utilization of the CPU's?

It would be irrelevant because console don't have problem like Direct X unoptimised draw calls that use up more CPU resources. Mantle and Direct X 12 aim to alleviate these problem somewhat.

 

[RoboPlato]

Yea.. and? Area lights using SSR is pretty easy to do (you can see the shape of them in the reflection). True area lights that I was mentioning are the ones used in film.. that is, they cast soft shadows by importance sampling the area of the light.. And guess what? That's NOT in KZ:SF (or any game).

I never realized that you were referring to the ones in film versus the technique that they used. You should probably explain more what you mean when you reject a specific definition of something like here with GI and previously with area lights.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I never realized that you were referring to the ones in film versus the technique that they used. You should probably explain more what you mean when you reject a specific definition of something like here with GI and previously with area lights.

You are right.

For those that want an explanation of these terms so that we are all on the same page as far as graphics features in games.

There are 2 types of lighting. 1) Direct lighting and 2) Indirect lighting.

Direct lighting is surfaces that receive light from a light source from a direct path meaning you can draw a straight line from for example, the sun to the ground. Or a flashlight that hits a wall in front of it. When we talk about Drive Club having GI, we are really talking about direct light from the sun and sky. This is NOT global illumination. It's direct lighting.

Indirect lighting is light that has hit a surface directly, and then bounced off that surface carrying the surfaces color to another surface that is then illuminated by that second bounce. There are two forms of indirect lighting: 1) Diffuse and 2) Specular (or reflections). Many games are starting to use Specular indirect lighting -- which is just screen-space reflections. Looking through a mirror, or a wet surface that reflects a car, etc.. this is all specular indirect.

The hard part is diffuse indirect. No other game has done this until Alien:Isolation has come out. Unreal Engine 4 used a technique that was too taxing to do in realtime hardware so they scrapped it. Every game bakes out this indirect diffuse (Far Cry 3, Crysis 3, TLOU, etc.) into what is called "light maps". Or they used "light probes" that have illumination baked into them and then the game accesses these probes.

Alien is the exception:

Here is a video I made showing off the indirect diffuse bounce in real-time.

Video 1: Notice how I shine the flashlight onto the red trashcan, but the light gets bounced onto the wall making the wall illuminate with a red color.

http://youtu.be/9nGO_B68yrU

Video 2: Here is a shot where I have entered a completely dark room. I turn on the flashlight and the light bounces off the wall in front of me and scatters light all around lighting up the room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJtqa7NDqBI&feature=youtu.be

Video 3: I'm in a room where light from a fire is illuminating this portion of the room even though the fire is in the hallway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPDRJtCK9Ps&feature=youtu.be

Any game that boasts doing this should have clear indicators just like the UE4 demos. Going outside, you should be able to get next to a wall and say, your uniform is red and the sun is hitting it. It should illuminate the wall next to you with a red color as you walk along the wall. That's why UE4 had several colored objects being hit by a light source and then illuminating surfaces with those colors.

It's a very complex technique, so mad props to the dev that can do it like Creative Assembly.

 

[Marlenus]

Would these numbers be the same if both PCs were paired with the same laughably underpowered CPU's and maybe the games were near 100% utilization of the CPU's?

I would expect the performance delta to remain roughly the same unless they were totally CPU limited at both settings, in which case the performance would be the same regardless of resolution. This is why I say that if Xbox One can do it at 900p the PS4 can at 1080p. If the game is a stuttering mess on Xbox One at 900p though I would not expect the PS4 to handle it gracefully at 1080p.

The only technical explanation for 900p on both (assuming the Xbox One can maintain a locked, or even a steady, 30 FPS) was the idea that they are memory limited. I do not think it is the case but if they were maxing out memory usage at 900p then it does make technical sense.

 

[Memorabilia]

Lol @ the dev's supposed quote. Is this a confirmed source? I can hardly believe any real dev would issue such a long non-answer that seems to give no good explanation for similar performance on hardware with significant differences and then expect anyone with basic knowledge to believe this.

In the end, the real world difference between an HD 7770 and HD 7850 is significant. Checking frame-rate differences between various games cranked to the max on both cards tells the layman most of what he needs to know.

 

[Memorabilia]

I would expect the performance delta to remain roughly the same unless they were totally CPU limited at both settings, in which case the performance would be the same regardless of resolution. This is why I say that if Xbox One can do it at 900p the PS4 can at 1080p. If the game is a stuttering mess on Xbox One at 900p though I would not expect the PS4 to handle it gracefully at 1080p.

The only technical explanation for 900p on both (assuming the Xbox One can maintain a locked, or even a steady, 30 FPS) was the idea that they are memory limited. I do not think it is the case but if they were maxing out memory usage at 900p then it does make technical sense.

Exactly.

 

[R_Deckard]

Would you guys stop saying that! Drive Club does NOT have global illumination!!

You are right.

For those that want an explanation of these terms so that we are all on the same page as far as graphics features in games.

There are 2 types of lighting. 1) Direct lighting and 2) Indirect lighting.

Direct lighting is surfaces that receive light from a light source from a direct path meaning you can draw a straight line from for example, the sun to the ground. Or a flashlight that hits a wall in front of it. When we talk about Drive Club having GI, we are really talking about direct light from the sun and sky. This is NOT global illumination. It's direct lighting.

Indirect lighting is light that has hit a surface directly, and then bounced off that surface carrying the surfaces color to another surface that is then illuminated by that second bounce. There are two forms of indirect lighting: 1) Diffuse and 2) Specular (or reflections). Many games are starting to use Specular indirect lighting -- which is just screen-space reflections. Looking through a mirror, or a wet surface that reflects a car, etc.. this is all specular indirect.

The hard part is diffuse indirect. No other game has done this until Alien:Isolation has come out. Unreal Engine 4 used a technique that was too taxing to do in realtime hardware so they scrapped it. Every game bakes out this indirect diffuse (Far Cry 3, Crysis 3, TLOU, etc.) into what is called "light maps". Or they used "light probes" that have illumination baked into them and then the game accesses these probes.

Alien is the exception:

Here is a video I made showing off the indirect diffuse bounce in real-time.

Video 1: Notice how I shine the flashlight onto the red trashcan, but the light gets bounced onto the wall making the wall illuminate with a red color.

http://youtu.be/9nGO_B68yrU

Video 2: Here is a shot where I have entered a completely dark room. I turn on the flashlight and the light bounces off the wall in front of me and scatters light all around lighting up the room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJtqa7NDqBI&feature=youtu.be

Video 3: I'm in a room where light from a fire is illuminating this portion of the room even though the fire is in the hallway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPDRJtCK9Ps&feature=youtu.be

Any game that boasts doing this should have clear indicators just like the UE4 demos. Going outside, you should be able to get next to a wall and say, your uniform is red and the sun is hitting it. It should illuminate the wall next to you with a red color as you walk along the wall. That's why UE4 had several colored objects being hit by a light source and then illuminating surfaces with those colors.

It's a very complex technique, so mad props to the dev that can do it like Creative Assembly.

You are confusing many things here, having a light bounce onto another area from a static object could just as easily be baked into the texture and your other examples are also incorrect as the Fire is SSR that has not been occluded from the corridor (hence why you can see it in reflection and not in person) with the specular luminance simply being prioritised by your torchlight and this could all come from baking or light probes.

DC has GI in the game you can see this from your headlights bouncing off cars onto walls in the game and the way the light changes based on the angle in the scene or how the dash/hands are reflected in the windscreen as the light bounces back. GI is more than just a one to one bounce it is how light can bounce and light other areas in a scene. GI can be faked/ Part realtime or full realtime, no game runs full realtime GI.

For a great example of this at work look at the Voxel cone tracing system (similar to the UE4 method dropped) in use in Tomorrows children, you can see below the way the bounce light increases the detail in the building on each subsequent bounce, this is how it works from the direct source in this case the sun as below;

OFF

1Bounce

2Bounce

3Bounce

EDIT: as Pictures did not work!

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I'm not confusing anything. The terms I used are fact and if you don't believe me, look them up. I deal with this stuff everyday so I'm 99.9% sure of my terms.

You are confusing many things here, having a light bounce onto another area from a static object could just as easily be baked into the texture

Just because it can be baked doesn't mean it is. Alien isn't baking anything. Read their technical article on their lighting. Also look at DF website for their take where they explicitly say all lighting is dynamic (i.e. NOT baked).

and your other examples are also incorrect as the Fire is SSR that has not been occluded from the corridor (hence why you can see it in reflection and not in person)

I know of the SSR on the floors. I'm talking more of the diffuse bounce and not the specular. If you have the game, walk around using a blow torch and blow fire in a dark hallway. It will light up the hallway and bounce light around lighting other surfaces indirectly.

with the specular luminance simply being prioritised by your torchlight and this could all come from baking or light probes.

Again, Alien doesn't use baked probes. They create them instantly. The technique is called "Instant Radiosity".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2VEdSv-wUI

DC has GI in the game you can see this from your headlights bouncing off cars onto walls in the game and the way the light changes based on the angle in the scene or how the dash/hands are reflected in the windscreen as the light bounces back.

That's indirect reflections (i.e. SSR) and NOT diffuse reflections.

GI is more than just a one to one bounce it is how light can bounce and light other areas in a scene.

GI is just that. It is indirect lighting on a surface. Period.

Theoretically reflections, refractions, and shadows are all examples of global illumination, because when simulating them, one object affects the rendering of another object (as opposed to an object being affected only by a direct light). In practice, however, only the simulation of diffuse inter-reflection or caustics is called global illumination.

Interreflection

Diffuse interreflection is a process whereby light reflected from an object strikes other objects in the surrounding area, illuminating them. Diffuse interreflection specifically describes light reflected from objects which are not shiny or specular. In real life terms what this means is that light is reflected off non-shiny surfaces such as the ground, walls, or fabric, to reach areas not directly in view of a light source.If the diffuse surface is colored, the reflected light is also colored, resulting in similar coloration of surrounding objects.

In 3D computer graphics, diffuse interreflection is an important component of global illumination. There are a number of ways to model diffuse interreflection when rendering a scene. Radiosity and photon mapping are two commonly used methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_reflection

GI can be faked/ Part realtime or full realtime, no game runs full realtime GI.

This is simply false.

For a great example of this at work look at the Voxel cone tracing system (similar to the UE4 method dropped) in use in Tomorrows children, you can see below the way the bounce light increases the detail in the building on each subsequent bounce, this is how it works from the direct source in this case the sun as below;

Yes, and this game isn't out yet. Otherwise I would have included it. Again, it's getting the results of what Alien is doing, only it's being lit by an outside light source (i.e. a directional called the Sun) instead of a flashlight.

 

[R_Deckard]

Ok if you do this 99.9% of the time you need to be more accurate or less aggressive in your posts.

You said and I quote:-

Would you guys stop saying that! Drive Club does NOT have global illumination!!

I then proved it does by stating how it works and what GI actually is and then you changed your point to Indirect Diffuse light. GI is Indirect Light of which Diffuse or specular are parts there of, not having one does not negate it. That said it does have this as you can read in the DF article:-

while the ice packs spread across the Norwegian landscape, losing their midday sheen as indirect light comes into contact with the surface

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-vs-driveclub

I'm not confusing anything. The terms I used are fact and if you don't believe me, look them up. I deal with this stuff everyday so I'm 99.9% sure of my terms.

As shown above you are confusing them!

Just because it can be baked doesn't mean it is. Alien isn't baking anything. Read their technical article on their lighting. Also look at DF website for their take where they explicitly say all lighting is dynamic (i.e. NOT baked).



I know of the SSR on the floors. I'm talking more of the diffuse bounce and not the specular. If you have the game, walk around using a blow torch and blow fire in a dark hallway. It will light up the hallway and bounce light around lighting other surfaces indirectly.



Again, Alien doesn't use baked probes. They create them instantly. The technique is called "Instant Radiosity".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2VEdSv-wUI



That's indirect reflections (i.e. SSR) and NOT diffuse reflections.



GI is just that. It is indirect lighting on a surface. Period.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_reflection



This is simply false.



Yes, and this game isn't out yet. Otherwise I would have included it. Again, it's getting the results of what Alien is doing, only it's being lit by an outside light source (i.e. a directional called the Sun) instead of a flashlight.

Again name me a game that runs Full realtime GI on everything, Tomorrows children only runs it on static objects not on characters.

And GI as you have quoted is made up of more than just this one part

These algorithms model diffuse inter-reflection which is a very important part of global illumination; however most of these (excluding radiosity) also model specular reflection, which makes them more accurate algorithms to solve the lighting equation and provide a more realistically illuminated scene.

For example the caustic refraction can be seen in Driveclub on rivers/streams illuminating and reflecting on the underside of bridges.

The issue here is you are coming from an off-line / Movie side in which case most things are a "cheat" to create the image but if the process works from a calculation of Indirect light it IS a form of GI made up of more than one component, again from your own linked Wiki article

In real-time 3D graphics, the diffuse inter-reflection component of global illumination is sometimes approximated by an "ambient" term in the lighting equation

 

[thechristoph]

i like video games you guys

 

[R_Deckard]

i like video games you guys

me too sorry if that comes across argumentative not my intention.

 

[thelastcrusader]

i like video games you guys

I like videogames where the publishers don't gimp your version.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Ok if you do this 99.9% of the time you need to be more accurate or less aggressive in your posts.

I'm not trying to be aggressive with my posts, but I certainly don't take a liking to someone telling me I'm confusing my terms..

I then proved it does by stating how it works and what GI actually is and then you changed your point to Indirect Diffuse light. GI is Indirect Light of which Diffuse or specular are parts there of, not having one does not negate it. That said it does have this as you can read in the DF article:-

GI, in practice, and what games currently are struggling with is indirect diffuse bounce. Period. SSR isn't really considered GI IMO since it has more to do with the material than it does light bouncing off of surfaces.. But ok.. I'll say this is debatably an element in GI.. But please don't tell me I'm confusing things. That's simply untrue.

Again name me a game that runs Full realtime GI on everything, Tomorrows children only runs it on static objects not on characters.

If you could turn on the flashlight ALL the time in Alien, then it would be creating light probes on the fly everywhere you go. To me, that's full realtime GI. SSR is already implemented in the game so that's a wash.

And GI as you have quoted is made up of more than just this one part

I don't include caustics as that's something not even thought of yet in video games.

For example the caustic refraction can be seen in Driveclub on rivers/streams illuminating and reflecting on the underside of bridges.

I will download DriveClub tonight and see what you are talking about. Caustics are specular bounces, not refraction.

 

[JordanN]

Again name me a game that runs Full realtime GI on everything, Tomorrows children only runs it on static objects not on characters.

Wait, it's just static objects? Ah man, that's no fun. I thought the whole point to realtime GI was to work with dynamic objects.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Wait, it's just static objects? Ah man, that's no fun. I thought the whole point to realtime GI was to work with dynamic objects.

I think he means that the objects (like the cave) are not moving. But it can still be dynamic if the sun moves and the illumination inside the cave changes.

 

[AndyD]

I think he means that the objects (like the cave) are not moving. But it can still be dynamic if the sun moves and the illumination inside the cave changes.

I think he means on characters which are dynamic in a scene.

I have to say I really enjoy your guys' analysis even though I don't understand all of it. At the end of the day it seems that a number of recent games are really pushing the lighting envelope in ways that it was not done before. Not all of them do all the "techniques" but even doing some seems to improve the visuals and experience.

 

[R_Deckard]

I'm not trying to be aggressive with my posts, but I certainly don't take a liking to someone telling me I'm confusing my terms..



GI, in practice, and what games currently are struggling with is indirect diffuse bounce. Period. SSR isn't really considered GI IMO since it has more to do with the material than it does light bouncing off of surfaces.. But ok.. I'll say this is debatably an element in GI.. But please don't tell me I'm confusing things. That's simply untrue.



If you could turn on the flashlight ALL the time in Alien, then it would be creating light probes on the fly everywhere you go. To me, that's full realtime GI. SSR is already implemented in the game so that's a wash.



I don't include caustics as that's something not even thought of yet in video games.




I will download DriveClub tonight and see what you are talking about. Caustics are specular bounces, not refraction.

OK sorry if that came across "having a go" I was not and for that I apologise.

Yes GI is more than just indirect diffuse or indirect Specular it is built up of various elements and with PBR now being far more common and most likely the "norm" this gen it will improve immensely.

Again not arguing but caustics are reflections or refractions from or through a curved object/surface i.e. water surface reflecting back onto objects or light shining through a glass.

The Alien Isolation process with Light Probes to allocate the radiosity is very impressive for sure.

Wait, it's just static objects? Ah man, that's no fun. I thought the whole point to realtime GI was to work with dynamic objects.

I think he means on characters which are dynamic in a scene.

I have to say I really enjoy your guys' analysis even though I don't understand all of it. At the end of the day it seems that a number of recent games are really pushing the lighting envelope in ways that it was not done before. Not all of them do all the "techniques" but even doing some seems to improve the visuals and experience.

Yes correct it is only on the objects and buildings in the scene, the process for something as dynamic as this will take alot more time and effort. This and many more games will seriously improve Realtime Lighting in games, I am really looking forward to the GI implementation in AC:Unity.

 

[luca_29_bg]

just for curiosity, P.T has global illumination ? The lighting is incredible in that demo, i really hope that silent hills will have something similar!

 

[VFX_Veteran]

OK sorry if that came across "having a go" I was not and for that I apologise.

No worries.

Yes GI is more than just indirect diffuse or indirect Specular it is built up of various elements and with PBR now being far more common and most likely the "norm" this gen it will improve immensely.

I guess this is where our semantics differ. In the film industry, just implementing a BRDF that's energy conserving (i.e. PBR) isn't a part of global illumination. Also, environment lighting is still direct lighting from the sky. We don't consider that in the GI equation either.

Again not arguing but caustics are reflections or refractions from or through a curved object/surface i.e. water surface reflecting back onto objects or light shining through a glass.

Yes, and it's simulating light passing through that surface being bent by some index of refraction and then either reflecting or refracting onto another surface. Once it hits the other surface, in the specular case, the other surface will get illuminated by that light. This is seen on an ocean floor. Again, that's indirect light since the other surface wasn't hit by the light directly. Refraction isn't caustics.

Yes correct it is only on the objects and buildings in the scene, the process for
something as dynamic as this will take alot more time and effort.

If that's the case, then yea, no one will be able to tell the difference between that technique and baked light maps.

This and many more games will seriously improve Realtime Lighting in games, I am really looking forward to the GI implementation in AC:Unity.

But it's baked.. they said it themselves.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

just for curiosity, P.T has global illumination ? The lighting is incredible in that demo, i really hope that silent hills will have something similar!

I doubt it. The lighting does look impressive though. I can go back over that demo and see if it behaves like Alien:Isolation.

 

[luca_29_bg]

I doubt it. The lighting does look impressive though. I can go back over that demo and see if it behaves like Alien:Isolation.

Thanks, i played a bit of Alies isolation and maybe because the poligonal edges on the enviroments break the immersion for me and because i don't live in a spaceship but in a apartment, i found much more impressive P.t. The detail on the objects is perfect! I hate polygonals edge! Cross finger for silent hills to have house, hospital, and whatever Kojima will do, with a really high details!

P.s it's possible to have the p.t detail in a complete game right ? Or it's possible only in a really small environments ?

 

[luca_29_bg]

Edit. Double post!