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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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T

theSlacker

Member
Giever said:
However, I didn't do terribly much research, and it turns out to plug into that converter, I need a European Scart. However! My US SNES isn't happy with a European Scart.
Click to expand...

Why not? Is something wrong with your snes? Just pick up one of the snes cables with euro scart that that retro_console_accessories ebay seller sells when she puts them back in stock. Wouldn't need one with the separated audio out either with that other adapter that you are going to get.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Giever said:
So this isn't totally about upscalers or anything, but does anyone know where I could get a Japanese Scart to European Scart converter? I believe that's what I need.

Here's the deal: I have a Sony PVM-2530, which has a wonky input that necessitated (as far as I could tell), the purchase of this: http://www.retrogamingcables.com/sony-pvm-scart-converter.html

However, I didn't do terribly much research, and it turns out to plug into that converter, I need a European Scart. However! My US SNES isn't happy with a European Scart.

So, ultimately, I think what I'll end up needing is either an all in one cord that properly comes out of the US SNES while remaining Euro Scart on the other end (as seen here, I believe, but they are always out of stock: http://www.retrogamingcables.com/super-nintendo-ntsc-rgb-av-scart-cable-av-lead-cord-for-sale.html ), or I would need a typical Japanese Scart or whatever, for the US SNES, and a Jap-to-Euro Scart converter, so that I can get it into the D-Sub thing for my Sony PVM-2530.
Click to expand...
Your US SNES should be perfectly compatible with European SCART cables.

It's just that US TVs never had a SCART input. Your PVM does (apparently - through that converter), so Euro SCART should work fine.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Yea a European scart cable will work, but it has to be wired for ntsc consoles as far as I know.

http://www.consolegoods.co.uk/
Check the Super Nintendo accessories section and he has euro scart cables for NTSC consoles in stock. I've ordered a bunch of stuff from him. Good guy.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If you live in North America and are using Japanese (Micomsoft) scalers, I'm wondering why you'd want to bother with SCART at all instead of JP 21-pin.

EDIT: Nvm, somehow completely missed that he was talking about a particular TV input.
 
G

Giever

Member
theSlacker said:
Why not? Is something wrong with your snes? Just pick up one of the snes cables with euro scart that that retro_console_accessories ebay seller sells when she puts them back in stock. Wouldn't need one with the separated audio out either with that other adapter that you are going to get.
Click to expand...

I don't know why not. It just shows absolutely no image whatsoever. :( I don't think it's the PVM itself, as I tested it earlier. Though the only way I can test it is with the S-Video input, so I suppose something could be wrong with the actual CMPTR input I'm trying to utilize.

EDIT: Alright, I think I get what's going on, and why I'm so confused. There are Japanese and European Scart cables, but not all Euro Scart cables are necessarily PAL. I would need an NTSC European Scart cable to connect my US SNES to that converter to the PVM-2530. I think that's right? So the reason the current Scart cable I'm using isn't giving me any image, is because it's probably for PAL SNESs? I'm just not very knowledgeable about this subject matter, and I was getting the whole Jap/Euro thing confused with the whole NTSC/PAL thing.
 
S

STG!

Member
Giever said:
I don't know why not. It just shows absolutely no image whatsoever. :( I don't think it's the PVM itself, as I tested it earlier. Though the only way I can test it is with the S-Video input, so I suppose something could be wrong with the actual CMPTR input I'm trying to utilize.
Click to expand...

Do you have any other consoles to test? US SNES can be a little particular about the cable, I know I tried a couple myself until I found one that worked. Although I would make sure you can get a picture on your PVM first just to play it safe, and try hooking something up through S-Video. :)

Edit: Oh, and hey buddy:

Sixfortyfive said:
If you live in North America and are using Japanese (Micomsoft) scalers, I'm wondering why you'd want to bother with SCART at all instead of JP 21-pin.
Click to expand...

I replied back to you in the other thread about the XCapture-1. ;-)
 
B

Beckx

Member
Quick question: I ordered one of the Genesis 2 compatible RGB SCART cables from retro_gaming_accessories on eBay. I am assuming that these are Euro-SCART not JP21, and that I'll need the Euro SCART to mini-DIN adapter to connect to Framemeister. (Already have one of those on order, too.)

Can anyone confirm?
 
S

STG!

Member
I'm pretty sure all their cables they sell on eBay are wired for EU SCART, but it never hurts to ask them directly just to completely confirm that.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Solaris got back to me; the order's cancelled, but for the inconvenience, they'll throw in the DIN->component adapter I was trying to order for free. I feel really guilty about it, but I think I'll take them up on it.

Was definitely being too harsh on them... I'm just really unused to ordering things from Japan. ._.; Thanks for the support, though, guys.

Beckx said:
Quick question: I ordered one of the Genesis 2 compatible RGB SCART cables from retro_gaming_accessories on eBay. I am assuming that these are Euro-SCART not JP21, and that I'll need the Euro SCART to mini-DIN adapter to connect to Framemeister. (Already have one of those on order, too.)

Can anyone confirm?
Click to expand...
IIRC she explicitly says they're wired for EU SCART, but can rewire them for JP21 at no additional cost if requested. If you didn't request that, they're EU SCART for sure, and you'll need the adapter you ordered.
 
B

Beckx

Member
Yeah, when I placed the order I tried to ask the questions through the buyer message section, so she probably missed it.

Glad everything worked out with Solaris - they are really great.

------------------

Edit: is anyone using a SCART or mini-din extension cable that you'd recommend?
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Is anybody in this thread interested in buying an official GameCube component cable for less than the going rate on eBay? I'm going to hit the B/S/T thread and then eBay if I don't have any takers here, but I'd rather sell to a GAFer if I can.

EDIT: Sold
 
B

Beckx

Member
AuthenticM said:
RGB is component, right ? I don't recall older systems having that. Or is it something else ?
Click to expand...

Nope, it's not component - it's an older non-HD standard RedGreenBlue, and Master System, Genesis, SNES and other systems can output a RGB signal with the proper cable (others, like NES and N64, can do it with mods). Basically allows you to get the most stable 240p output from these systems with the best color. Devices like the Framemeister deinterlace & upscale that signal for modern TVs.

The tier list for signal quality for classic consoles, from worst to best: RF, Composite, S-Video, RGB.

Lots more info in the OP and especially here.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
AFAIK, component is generally on par with RGB, though. It can even handle HD and progressive resolutions that RGB can't (I think?)
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Shadow Hog said:
AFAIK, component is generally on par with RGB, though. It can even handle HD and progressive resolutions that RGB can't (I think?)
Click to expand...

Theoretically RGB color separation is better than Component (YPbPr). And correct me if I'm wrong but for HD content over HD resolutions you can get RGB output over HDMI, right?
 
A

AuthenticM

Member
Beckx said:
Nope, it's not component - it's an older non-HD standard RedGreenBlue, and Master System, Genesis, SNES and other systems can output a RGB signal with the proper cable (others, like NES and N64, can do it with mods). Basically allows you to get the most stable 240p output from these systems with the best color. Devices like the Framemeister deinterlace & upscale that signal for modern TVs.

The tier list for signal quality for classic consoles, from worst to best: RF, Composite, S-Video, RGB.

Lots more info in the OP and especially here.
Click to expand...

Ah, thanks !
 
V

VXLbeast

Member
Just trying to make sure I understand this right. I'm about to buy a (no doubt US) SNES, and certainly wouldn't mind some good picture quality. These are the cables I need (http://www.retrogamingcables.com/super-nintendo-ntsc-rgb-av-scart-cable-av-lead-cord-for-sale.html), but my (US) TV does not have this input, it not being PAL and all. So what I would need is an up-scaler which converts the signal for my TV. Did I understand this right? As I feel like I have misunderstood somewhere along the way.

Signed,
Someone who is very excited to play Secret of Mana for the first time.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
sixteen-bit said:
Theoretically RGB color separation is better than Component (YPbPr). And correct me if I'm wrong but for HD content over HD resolutions you can get RGB output over HDMI, right?
Click to expand...

see, yeah, my understanding was that component was kinda like compressed RGB (?) but the color separation was what stood out. could be wrong, but yeah, having PS2 & GC over component, ive never looked at the colors & said "i want to try them in RGB" personally

rothgar said:
For those with a Framemeister and an NES, how good is the upscaled composite signal from the NES?
Click to expand...

as BocoDragon taught me: it does what it can with the signal, which is to say, you can make it fit your TV right & add scanlines and such...but it doesn't save the washed out/limited look of the colors that messes it up for me. oversan wasnt so bad on the games i played but the colors man...we really need a cheaper RGB solution soon. Retron 5 may have to do, if it makes it out.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
STG! said:
I replied back to you in the other thread about the XCapture-1. ;-)
Click to expand...
I saw, thanks. Definitely going to pick one up and try it out myself.

sixteen-bit said:
Theoretically RGB color separation is better than Component (YPbPr). And correct me if I'm wrong but for HD content over HD resolutions you can get RGB output over HDMI, right?
Click to expand...
RGB is superior to YPbPr, yes. I think component cables may actually be able to carry both of those kinds of signals too (HDMI definitely can), but don't quote me on that.
 
K

Kamaji

Member
Anyone got a link to a web shop that sell PAL scart contacts? I have a PAL Snes and would like to make the most of the experience on my LED TV. I've heard that the quality differs which is mainly why I ask.
 
P

Pappasman

Member
My euro adapter got here and I've finally been able to use the framemeister properly with RGB. Holy crap, this thing is outstanding. The first game I played was Yoshi's Island and I was totally blown away.

Now I really want to build up my retro collection. I'm not really interested much in next-gen at the moment and the framemiester has really rejuvenated my interest in playing and collecting old games.
 
P

Pappasman

Member
Are there any differences between the different genesis models in the way they use RGB? Is there a specific model I should look for?
 
B

Beckx

Member
Pappasman said:
Are there any differences between the different genesis models in the way they use RGB? Is there a specific model I should look for?
Click to expand...

Not really on the RGB side but big differences on sound quality. Check the guides at retroRGB.com. The short answer: early Model 1s (the "High Definition Graphics" model) are best for sound, but buy a boosted sync cable to avoid jailbars; if you buy other Model 1s or Model 2s, some can have really terrible sound compared to the early Model 1.

Oh, and Model 3 doesn't output RGB without a mod.

I currently have one of the terrible Model 2s but hopefully replacing it with either a 3/4 MB Model 2 or an HDG Model 1 today.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Pappasman said:
Are there any differences between the different genesis models in the way they use RGB? Is there a specific model I should look for?
Click to expand...

Model 1 Geneses only output stereo from the front headphone jack. Doesn't really affect video alone, but if you want to pull RGB and Stereo sound from the same cable they make a specialized one that pugs into both the front headphone jack and the 8-pin DIN AV connector in the back.

Beckx said:
Oh, and Model 3 doesn't output RGB without a mod.
Click to expand...

Model 3s don't output stereo either.
 
M

Madao

Member
i forgot to mention it last week when i got them but i got the D-terminal cable for Wii to hook it up to the XRGB mini.

what a difference. the Wii now look leagues better than before and the input lag has been reduced greatly. i've played few games so far but things are almost unreal. the price of all this stuff has been worth it once everything is working. i didn't get to use the D-terminal to component adapter since the XRGB only has 1 D-terminal input but i don't use the GC Game Boy Player much anyway so i'm fine for now.

speaking of cable differences, where does the D-terminal stand compared to Component? is it equivalent or are there differences? i have no way to test both on equal conditions so it would be good if anyone knows.
 
Y

Yes Boss!

Member
D-terminal and component are the same thing...just different connection.

Yeah, and a Wii, component, an XRGB Mini are one of the best things ever in gaming.
 
R

Ramune

Member
Beckx said:
Not really on the RGB side but big differences on sound quality. Check the guides at retroRGB.com. The short answer: early Model 1s (the "High Definition Graphics" model) are best for sound, but buy a boosted sync cable to avoid jailbars; if you buy other Model 1s or Model 2s, some can have really terrible sound compared to the early Model 1.

Oh, and Model 3 doesn't output RGB without a mod.

I currently have one of the terrible Model 2s but hopefully replacing it with either a 3/4 MB Model 2 or an HDG Model 1 today.
Click to expand...

Sounds horrible! What do these jailbars Iook like? I have a non-HDG model 1 (the one considered 2nd best according to Sega-16 apparently), and tried my it and these cables on a couple of PVMs I'm supposed to be receiving soon and I didn't notice anything other than an extremely clear, sharp and clean image and the subtle scanlines that seem trademark of an RGB monitor. Especially coming from the RF switchbox picture I was accustomed to as a kid.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Like this:

svideo_sonic2titleawk0q.jpg

svideo_sonic2ehz10jj4o.jpg

svideo_sonic2jailbars8rjqx.jpg
Click to expand...
Pay close attention to the blues.

This is S-Video, mind, not RGB.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Madao said:
i forgot to mention it last week when i got them but i got the D-terminal cable for Wii to hook it up to the XRGB mini.

what a difference. the Wii now look leagues better than before and the input lag has been reduced greatly. i've played few games so far but things are almost unreal. the price of all this stuff has been worth it once everything is working. i didn't get to use the D-terminal to component adapter since the XRGB only has 1 D-terminal input but i don't use the GC Game Boy Player much anyway so i'm fine for now.

speaking of cable differences, where does the D-terminal stand compared to Component? is it equivalent or are there differences? i have no way to test both on equal conditions so it would be good if anyone knows.
Click to expand...
Maybe an ignorant question but - are using this setup to play VC games? Are are using an emulator via custom FW or something?
 
R

Ramune

Member
Wow! I never seen those vertical bars at all! Just the horizontal scanlines. Is this a problem with Model 1s in general or just S-Video and below?
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Ramune said:
Wow! I never seen those vertical bars at all! Just the horizontal scanlines. Is this a problem with Model 1s in general or just S-Video and below?
Click to expand...

You won't see jailbars on composite or RF, the image is too soft.

It's apparent in RGB or S-Video (if you have an S-Video mod or Micomsoft RGB->S-video transcoder, as Genesis doesn't output S-video stock).
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
That said, a friend's videi recordings feature jailbars for some reason, and he certainly isn't sporting RGB or S-Video.

However, apparently a boosted sync cable will eliminate the issue with RGB, so there's that, I guess.
 
P

plc268

Member
kiun said:
Just got my framemeister, this little device is awesome. Question, is "meister" mode the only way to get scanlines ?

the wiki http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER mentions how scanlines can be enabled in the other modes as well
Click to expand...

It's true, you can enable scanlines in the rest of the modes. Just press the C button you'll get a "V Line On Off" dialog. Select on, and you got scanlines. When in meister mode, scanlines are always on, and you can't turn them off.

Also, if you want scanlines, don't go for 1080p. Scanlines are bugged at this resolution and only look fine on 720p.
 
G

GayForMaster

Banned
Hey guys, if an SCART simply goes inside a TV (in europe), that means it carries video and audio signals right?

Is it possible to just convert SCART to hdmi for us pleb murricans or does that degrade the quality too much?
 
E

El Pescado

Member
If I have a RGB modded SNES and an XRGB-mini do I need a Scart-to-RGB converter if I'm in the US or do I just need to find me some GameCube RGB cables?
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
El Pescado said:
If I have a RGB modded SNES and an XRGB-mini do I need a Scart-to-RGB converter if I'm in the US or do I just need to find me some GameCube RGB cables?
Click to expand...

You need either a euro rgb scart cable with a scart to jpn 21 pin converter, or a jpn 21 pin cable for your console. Just getting a jpn 21 pin cable is probably your best bet.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Either way, you don't want Gamecube component cables for a SNES. They're designed to work with the Gamecube, and that's it; the connector doesn't fit in any other console. Besides, the chip for converting the signal to the appropriate output format is directly on the cable, so it'd probably be confused with whatever the other consoles put out.

(Also, there really isn't such a thing as Gamecube RGB cables; the only ones I know of are component cables that were modded to output RGB instead of YPbPr. Not sure why you'd bother, but evidently somebody out there did.)
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Shadow Hog said:
Either way, you don't want Gamecube component cables for a SNES. They're designed to work with the Gamecube, and that's it; the connector doesn't fit in any other console. Besides, the chip for converting the signal to the appropriate output format is directly on the cable, so it'd probably be confused with whatever the other consoles put out.

(Also, there really isn't such a thing as Gamecube RGB cables; the only ones I know of are component cables that were modded to output RGB instead of YPbPr. Not sure why you'd bother, but evidently somebody out there did.)
Click to expand...

Those are 2 seperate things. The SNES cable I have is a modified GameCube RGB cable I believe. It has the same multi out as all the other Nintendo stuff. The component cables can be modified to output RGB on an NTSC GameCube console. Why you'd want to output RGB instead of component, I'm not really sure. I suppose color seperation would be better on RGB.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Shadow Hog said:
Either way, you don't want Gamecube component cables for a SNES. They're designed to work with the Gamecube, and that's it; the connector doesn't fit in any other console. Besides, the chip for converting the signal to the appropriate output format is directly on the cable, so it'd probably be confused with whatever the other consoles put out.

(Also, there really isn't such a thing as Gamecube RGB cables; the only ones I know of are component cables that were modded to output RGB instead of YPbPr. Not sure why you'd bother, but evidently somebody out there did.)
Click to expand...

PAL Gamecubes are capable of RGB out the regular AV port. No S-video though. North American GCNs are the opposite; S-video capable but no RGB from the analog video port.
 
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