dragonelite
Member
How can we know man windows and OSX are closed source.
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Valve engineer confirms Linux-based Steambox for 2013, could appear at GDC or E3
- Thread starter alexandros
- Start date
How can we know man windows and OSX are closed source.
PepperJack
Banned
I'd be interested what Valve has to say about handling the back catalogue.
In general, I got back into PC gaming because the indie scene is off the hook now. I think I'm not alone in saying that indie releases interest me more than big company releases. A lot of these indie titles are linux compatible, or could likely be ported with a small team.
As well, Valve might write something like an optimized WINE for current non-linux games - it's a long shot - but maybe something like that will be possible.
Last I remember, when the PS3 moved to being non-backwards compatible, people started yelling and shouting - but look at how successful the PS3 is. Basically, valve is releasing a *new* console, much like one would release a non-backwards compatible PS3. Only in this case, there will still be a rather large library of games available from the bat, cross platform play, and more developers will likely jump ship and make their games compatible with linux. Couple that with frequent steam sales, and the possibility of incorporating netflix, hulu etc. and also steam's own movie library (just an idea) with similar steam sales - it will be glorious.
So stop hating. Finish playing your backlogs and get aboard the steam boat. pun intended.
In general, I got back into PC gaming because the indie scene is off the hook now. I think I'm not alone in saying that indie releases interest me more than big company releases. A lot of these indie titles are linux compatible, or could likely be ported with a small team.
As well, Valve might write something like an optimized WINE for current non-linux games - it's a long shot - but maybe something like that will be possible.
Last I remember, when the PS3 moved to being non-backwards compatible, people started yelling and shouting - but look at how successful the PS3 is. Basically, valve is releasing a *new* console, much like one would release a non-backwards compatible PS3. Only in this case, there will still be a rather large library of games available from the bat, cross platform play, and more developers will likely jump ship and make their games compatible with linux. Couple that with frequent steam sales, and the possibility of incorporating netflix, hulu etc. and also steam's own movie library (just an idea) with similar steam sales - it will be glorious.
So stop hating. Finish playing your backlogs and get aboard the steam boat. pun intended.
Valve could've used BSD, which is actually more under a more commercially friendly license/more stable/well-coded, but their decision to use Linux is a clue that they intend this to be an Android-esque hybrid platform with "official" hardware (think Nexus devices) as well as third party options because BSD is not compatible with a lot of hardware. I would also assume that Valve would let PC gamers install it on their built PCs.
Also, significant portions of OSX are open source.
Also, significant portions of OSX are open source.
There are a lot larger advantages for it to be Windows than Linux... main problem is licensing for the OS, which would be large part of the price of the box at the end.
There is really no need to sugar coat this.... it is purely financial decision, which any other company would have made as well.
Tears For Fears
Banned
No one in their right mind would buy EA. That's a sinking ship. Even as a deterrent.
If they really polish stuff, it's fine. Ubuntu is a pretty easy OS to use. It's when drivers don't work and other apps don't work is when Linux is a problem. Which is why I mostly use Windows.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Your existing Steam catalog likely won't run on the thing. And if it's a traditional console business model where the hardware is sold at a loss I wouldn't expect those famous Steam sales on this box for quite awhile either.
Baconsammy
Banned
If it can't play my wife's games (World of Warcraft, Diablo 3), it's not going to even be an option for me.
GravityMan
Member
There is very little chance that the Steambox will succeed. I doubt it does any better than the Ouya. Reasons:
1) There is next-to-no market for it. PC gamers will already have a PC and will simply buy or build new PCs when appropriate. 85% of console gamers are CASUAL gamers. They are the type to hook up the console with the supplied cables (even if they're composite!), turn it on, stick in the disc and play. Heck, many console games don't even know what XBLA, PSN or Wiiware/VC is. They don't know nor care about sub-30 FPS, screen tearing, AA or sub-HD resolutions. The remaining 15% are core gamers...but at least half of them still prefer the plug-in-and-play nature of consoles, plus a sizable # of them strongly prefer Japanese games, and not many of those are on Steam/PC. We're left with only a sliver of gamers (probably no more than 1 or 2 million) that would be interested in a Steambox.
2) If the specs are too weak then nobody will care about the Steambox. If the specs are too strong (e.g. far better than next-gen Sony/MS consoles) then the Steambox will be very expensive, and thus will be DOA.
3) Development costs are already through the roof. Steambox will just cause dev costs to rise even more, to make Linux/OpenGL compatible versions of their games. It'll be a hard sell for publishers.
4) Valve is a small company of only a few hundred employees, and they also don't have the financial resources of companies like MS, Sony, etc. Can they devote the significant amount of R&D necessary to Steambox to make it work. I'm skeptical. Much of their staff is focused on making games and managing Steam. Now if Valve is partnering with another company to make Steambox a reality, that's a different story.
5) Due to Linux, it won't have much of a library initially. Sure, the available library could possibly grow quite a bit after a couple of years...but since Steambox is a new player to the game, I think it has to make a positive commercial splash early on for it to catch on with gamers and devs. Most of them will take a skeptical wait-and-see approach. I do not think Steambox makes that splash. Valve can attempt to entice with sweetheart deals and whatnot, but those will only go so far.
I'm all for companies trying new things, and I know that big things start small...but Valve shouldn't bother with a Steambox. The risk of failure is just too great, and a company like them can't afford to absorb many significant flops. Stick to what they're already good at, which is games and Steam.
I'd love to be wrong, because the idea sounds great at first thought...but I just don't see it.
1) There is next-to-no market for it. PC gamers will already have a PC and will simply buy or build new PCs when appropriate. 85% of console gamers are CASUAL gamers. They are the type to hook up the console with the supplied cables (even if they're composite!), turn it on, stick in the disc and play. Heck, many console games don't even know what XBLA, PSN or Wiiware/VC is. They don't know nor care about sub-30 FPS, screen tearing, AA or sub-HD resolutions. The remaining 15% are core gamers...but at least half of them still prefer the plug-in-and-play nature of consoles, plus a sizable # of them strongly prefer Japanese games, and not many of those are on Steam/PC. We're left with only a sliver of gamers (probably no more than 1 or 2 million) that would be interested in a Steambox.
2) If the specs are too weak then nobody will care about the Steambox. If the specs are too strong (e.g. far better than next-gen Sony/MS consoles) then the Steambox will be very expensive, and thus will be DOA.
3) Development costs are already through the roof. Steambox will just cause dev costs to rise even more, to make Linux/OpenGL compatible versions of their games. It'll be a hard sell for publishers.
4) Valve is a small company of only a few hundred employees, and they also don't have the financial resources of companies like MS, Sony, etc. Can they devote the significant amount of R&D necessary to Steambox to make it work. I'm skeptical. Much of their staff is focused on making games and managing Steam. Now if Valve is partnering with another company to make Steambox a reality, that's a different story.
5) Due to Linux, it won't have much of a library initially. Sure, the available library could possibly grow quite a bit after a couple of years...but since Steambox is a new player to the game, I think it has to make a positive commercial splash early on for it to catch on with gamers and devs. Most of them will take a skeptical wait-and-see approach. I do not think Steambox makes that splash. Valve can attempt to entice with sweetheart deals and whatnot, but those will only go so far.
I'm all for companies trying new things, and I know that big things start small...but Valve shouldn't bother with a Steambox. The risk of failure is just too great, and a company like them can't afford to absorb many significant flops. Stick to what they're already good at, which is games and Steam.
I'd love to be wrong, because the idea sounds great at first thought...but I just don't see it.
AHA-Lambda
Member
That's exactly my first thought, but then I thought how hard/impossible it was for SONY to sell the PSP Go - because retail knew they would not make any additional $ on games afterward.
Imagine how hard it will be to distibute those boxes? Especially if you are NOT Sony and does not have +250M playstations sold...
If I was VALVe I would not let that critical part of the business to partner just crossing my fingers...
I'd choose a key one and I would chose him as much for it's hardware building history as for it's distribution network.
Like Google did with MOTOROLA or the NEXUS brand.
Just my 2 cents
What if Valve took the apple/amazon route and sold it directly though their own site? It would require heavy and effective marketing to promote to the average consumer but if/once it works then other retailers would then fall in line, just like what has happened with the Kindle and iPad.
Actually, yeah this is a fair point. What about non Steam games like from Blizzard, UPlay, GFWL and Origin? I assume these just won't be available?
That's their most profitable time. Both Valve and the devs.
This system will probably fall on its face. If it doesn't, one of the other three will be knocked out. The market cannot sustain 4 consoles. I guess it'll come down to specs vs MS/Sony, price, and how the third-party support is. Half-Life 3 exclusive would be huge, but Valve will have to grow its first-party.
Baconsammy
Banned
Depends on how it's sold. If it's sold as a console that can play PC games but can't play all PC games, it will bomb hard and fast. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they wont do something that dumb.
you sound awful.
GotEmRunnin
Member
Why couldn't Valve have some heavily tweaked version of wine or some other software they've been working on that could play the entire steam library? I'm not saying it's possible; I'm just throwing out another opinion as opposed to the "It can't / If it can't play my older games it'll fail camp"
Captain Tuttle
Member
So why not have the sales 24/7/365?
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Valve's goal isn't direct competition with either XB/PS4, it's to move away from their own reliance on Windows to keep their business intact and reach more customers. I'm taking this from the top since there seems to be very little understanding of why Valve are doing what they're doing here.
There are 2 areas they are addressing with their move into hardware:
1) Attempting to detach themselves/enthusiast PC game development from Windows - This is the most obvious one. Microsoft have taken early steps in creating a walled garden within Windows (Windows Store) where a % cut of all purchases within store apps goes to Microsoft (as with the app store on Apple's iOS). As Valve are already a store holder they cannot feasibly operate within the Windows Store (as an example, if Valve sold a 3rd party game through a hypothetical Steam app on Windows Store there would first be a percentage cut given to MS before the remainder of revenue goes to Valve and the publisher of the game).
Right now Valve can still release their applications as traditional Windows desktop apps and all purchases are split only among themselves and their partners, but this could change in the next 5-10 years, especially in an environment where the desktop is starting to get lumped in with tablet computing and treated almost as a legacy mode(e.g. the Windows 8 Metro UI). Valve can either wait (and hope that elements of their business model don't come under threat) or can start taking action to diversify the PC ecosystem outside of Windows (this is crucial due to the number of enthusiast gamers who are currently using Windows primarily for games).
2) Valve have an interest/investment in new peripherals they wish to push - Valve have been developing a number of pieces of hardware that they're going to reveal in 2013 that aren't just a "steambox". These are their patented controller and their biofeedback sensor (a little background on the sensor system is here and the controller patent was posted earlier). They also have staff attached to the Oculus Rift project so I imagine VR support is going to be an early and important feature, and likely the "killer app" that will differentiate them from consoles alongside HL3. Gabe Newell said last year that he was sick of the lack of meaningful innovation within the PC hardware space - I think these 3 pieces of hardware will indicate the innovation they are looking towards. I think Valve also want to create a new controller standard for PCs that isn't simply the existing xbox controller (especially since that console generation is ending).
The Steambox coming out of all this is most likely a framework spec that multiple vendors can build hardware around which runs a Steam-oriented Linux distro. The end user of the system could then either put Windows onto a partition if they wanted, swap out parts or install other services (e.g. Origin, Blizzard software, etc). What Valve will show off as a "Steambox" later this year will likely be their target spec box to match or exceed next-gen consoles, along with their controller and possibly a VR-enabled demo of HL3 as a "killer app" (I would definitely expect HL3, the VR depends entirely on the state of development of the Oculus Rift). The controller, biofeedback sensor, VR compatibility etc are all USB devices independent of the Steambox itself and so can be sold to all existing Steam users.
It's important not to think of this as a mass-manufactured console, Valve do not develop and sell the hardware (they do not have the manpower or resources). It's an operating system with a target spec that multiple hardware companies develop around, somewhat like the current market for Android hardware (so for example there could be a tower-style Steambox which exceeds the base spec, a HTPC Steambox or PVR Steambox designed for living rooms, etc). For that reason expect it to be expensive relative to XB3/PS4, and do not expect a console-style launch or major advertising campaigns (or console-level sales, either).
There are 2 areas they are addressing with their move into hardware:
1) Attempting to detach themselves/enthusiast PC game development from Windows - This is the most obvious one. Microsoft have taken early steps in creating a walled garden within Windows (Windows Store) where a % cut of all purchases within store apps goes to Microsoft (as with the app store on Apple's iOS). As Valve are already a store holder they cannot feasibly operate within the Windows Store (as an example, if Valve sold a 3rd party game through a hypothetical Steam app on Windows Store there would first be a percentage cut given to MS before the remainder of revenue goes to Valve and the publisher of the game).
Right now Valve can still release their applications as traditional Windows desktop apps and all purchases are split only among themselves and their partners, but this could change in the next 5-10 years, especially in an environment where the desktop is starting to get lumped in with tablet computing and treated almost as a legacy mode(e.g. the Windows 8 Metro UI). Valve can either wait (and hope that elements of their business model don't come under threat) or can start taking action to diversify the PC ecosystem outside of Windows (this is crucial due to the number of enthusiast gamers who are currently using Windows primarily for games).
2) Valve have an interest/investment in new peripherals they wish to push - Valve have been developing a number of pieces of hardware that they're going to reveal in 2013 that aren't just a "steambox". These are their patented controller and their biofeedback sensor (a little background on the sensor system is here and the controller patent was posted earlier). They also have staff attached to the Oculus Rift project so I imagine VR support is going to be an early and important feature, and likely the "killer app" that will differentiate them from consoles alongside HL3. Gabe Newell said last year that he was sick of the lack of meaningful innovation within the PC hardware space - I think these 3 pieces of hardware will indicate the innovation they are looking towards. I think Valve also want to create a new controller standard for PCs that isn't simply the existing xbox controller (especially since that console generation is ending).
The Steambox coming out of all this is most likely a framework spec that multiple vendors can build hardware around which runs a Steam-oriented Linux distro. The end user of the system could then either put Windows onto a partition if they wanted, swap out parts or install other services (e.g. Origin, Blizzard software, etc). What Valve will show off as a "Steambox" later this year will likely be their target spec box to match or exceed next-gen consoles, along with their controller and possibly a VR-enabled demo of HL3 as a "killer app" (I would definitely expect HL3, the VR depends entirely on the state of development of the Oculus Rift). The controller, biofeedback sensor, VR compatibility etc are all USB devices independent of the Steambox itself and so can be sold to all existing Steam users.
It's important not to think of this as a mass-manufactured console, Valve do not develop and sell the hardware (they do not have the manpower or resources). It's an operating system with a target spec that multiple hardware companies develop around, somewhat like the current market for Android hardware (so for example there could be a tower-style Steambox which exceeds the base spec, a HTPC Steambox or PVR Steambox designed for living rooms, etc). For that reason expect it to be expensive relative to XB3/PS4, and do not expect a console-style launch or major advertising campaigns (or console-level sales, either).
I'd imagine the user never even sees anything of the OS. It'll boot straight to an X server running just Steam Big Screen - no desktop environment. The Steambox default installation will probably not even include a DE. Just the kernel, the X server, all required libraries and Steam itself.
I H8 Memes
Member
There are a lot of things you can point at and say this is the reason a Steambox will fail. But over time I've learned to never doubt Gabe and Valve.
eot
Banned
I think this is as much about the Xbox as it is Windows 8. Valve have made it abundantly clear that they don't like dealing with Microsofts crap when it comes to supporting their games on the 360. Gabe has a habit of proving people wrong when they don't want to listen to him. Remember the 50% off weekend deal right before DICE he did just to prove a point in his keynote? I think Valve's convinced a more open model is better for everyone and if the console makers won't listen they're not going to waste their breath trying to convince them, they're going to prove why they're right.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Valve doesn't even make enough exclusive stuff beyond even Microsoft, the weaker of the big three in my opinion, to ever make me want a SteamBox. I imagine the thing is going to be marketed towards the "I want to PC game but..." less tech-literate crew, and hyper Valve fanboys that will follow Gaben into the abyss if necessary.
At least Gaben has his Windows 8 axe to grind now rather than the ridiculous "bin the PS3 now, its done!!" baby+bathwater incident of yore.
At least Gaben has his Windows 8 axe to grind now rather than the ridiculous "bin the PS3 now, its done!!" baby+bathwater incident of yore.
I H8 Memes
Member
What will be hilarious is if this thing is a success and all of a sudden MS decides to finally put all the Halo games on Windows.
This is what I was thinking.
A Desktop Environment seems pretty dumb for something that is only meant to play games on a TV.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, unless you think that they are going to modify the kernel. I doubt they will. I mean, at most, they will probably make drivers (which can be closed source.) As far as commercial viability goes, the license doesn't matter. But Linux is more popular, which is probably why a lot of things use it (servers/home routers/etc.)
i'd actually prefer Valve's exclusive stuff over Microsoft's.
Valve stuff that i like = Left 4 Dead, Counterstrike, Half Life, DOTA 2, Portal, Team Fortress.
Microsoft stuff that i like = Halo is decent ...then what? Forza maybe, but i don't really care about that. Fable is okay, i guess.
Microsoft is by far the worst out of all the console space for exclusive titles, imo.
Valve stuff that i like = Left 4 Dead, Counterstrike, Half Life, DOTA 2, Portal, Team Fortress.
Microsoft stuff that i like = Halo is decent ...then what? Forza maybe, but i don't really care about that. Fable is okay, i guess.
Microsoft is by far the worst out of all the console space for exclusive titles, imo.
Yep. It'll also keep the memory footprint and OS overhead to a minimum, getting quite a bit more performance out of whatever configuration they're targeting compared to running Windows on the same machine.
Just from my original understanding of these points:
Impossible to tell. New and crazy software/hardware is always being released. Steam was looked at the same way originally.
Wii had weak specs...who knows how they plan on marketing this. But we're talking Linux, so barrier to hardware is a lot lower.
Just like above, even though the compatibility costs make sense, linux runs software good on lower-end hardware. It will make that cost effective. Not to mention the OS is also extremely cost-effective.
Valve is surely fine in that department.
Usually, launch games for new hardware wouldn't be announced this early. More than likely they've already got that in the bag for the official announcement. I wouldn't worry.
I'm stoked for this competition.
Impossible to tell. New and crazy software/hardware is always being released. Steam was looked at the same way originally.
Wii had weak specs...who knows how they plan on marketing this. But we're talking Linux, so barrier to hardware is a lot lower.
Just like above, even though the compatibility costs make sense, linux runs software good on lower-end hardware. It will make that cost effective. Not to mention the OS is also extremely cost-effective.
Valve is surely fine in that department.
Usually, launch games for new hardware wouldn't be announced this early. More than likely they've already got that in the bag for the official announcement. I wouldn't worry.
I'm stoked for this competition.
Baconsammy
Banned
Good job forgetting about the tons of great XBLA titles. I got a Steambox over an Xbox, I'd want those games too.
I H8 Memes
Member
I wonder how likely it is that this is going to be a Streambox. Linux in the box handling the stream from Valve.
I think you have it backwards.
Everyone (almost) interested in PC gaming has Steam.
They want to increase the amount of people using Steam. To people who only play games on consoles.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Most indie XBLA titles are MS published because they had to be to get on the service.
Most seem more than happy to self publish on Steam when their arbitrary exclusivity period is up.
I don't really think you can use XBLA titles as 'Microsoft exclusives' to be honest.
No, I'm saying the opposite. They're going to embrace the stock Linux kernel because of the breadth of hardware it supports, as well as the open development since they're not big enough to support an operating system on their own in addition to the other things they do. If they wanted to make a "console" then there'd be little reason to use Linux.
And yes license matters, but that's really a different discussion I suppose. The GNU GPL is hostile to commercial participants regardless of what its proponents try to say.
steams indie/arcade section would blow XBLA out of the water
maybe use all of that Age of Empires goodwill and make a real RTS competitor to SC2
steam has a huge library but only us nerds still using dinosaur PCs can play them. this isn't for us, just like how most next-gen consoles are probably not going to be for us
Baconsammy
Banned
Given the large number of good ones, I think I can. And it looks like Microsoft's direction with Windows 8/Xbox is to make them playable on those two platforms only. If so, that immediately negates any reason I have to buy a Steambox. I can get Steam and Windows 8 by making my own PC. Not sure who this is actually aimed at, and I won't know until they officially say who its being made for. I personally don't see PC gamers going for it, nor do I think console gamers will buy it, especially if the games you can play is limited by the OS.
Yeah, I dont get it.
If it doesn't have the XBLA games I want/love, it wont blow anything out of the water.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
They have a daily deal and midweek madness 24/7. But that's beside the point. Why don't regular stores have a sale 24/7? After all, Christmas sales and shit are super duper profitable! Same reason. Some people are willing to buy at full price, then you do periodic mass sales to pull the crowds.
diffusionx
Gold Member
But this is "Steam." It's not the same without that huge library.
It's the idea of getting products at "tremendous discounts" for "a limited time only" that makes people spend, spend, spend for stuff they neither want nor need. Marketing 101.
Uhh, they do. You'll notice that Valve always has something sale. It didn't used to be like that, it used to be that most days nothing was on sale on Steam. If you mean why isn't every game permanently on sale price there are 2 reasons. 1) it would make the advertising effect of being on sale disappear and 2) people respond not only to the direct price they pay but also how much "cheaper" it is, this is why you get retail stores that mark up prices right before holiday sales so that they can later write 50% off! and get a sales boost.
We're already getting repeat sales constantly as it is now. Imagine the same thing with the Linux games!
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
That's going to harm their support and people wanting to work under those contractual obligations, not help it.
Why don't you give some examples? Because its pretty much Fez at this point in time, and that exclusivity period is ticking down.
The license for the kernel doesn't really matter that much. If it really did, BSD would be more popular in commercial applications than BSD would. The only time the license would really bother you is if you modified the kernel... AFAIK, there are very few Linux specific libraries/programs. At least, open source libraries/programs.
I mean, there's nothing stopping them from going with BSD; they could pick hardware that the kernel works with (though, it was never my impression that BSD had significantly more missing driver problems than Linux does). A lot of the libraries would work in BSD as well...
I dont see why this is the case. The kernel has a low footprint and it works. Perfect for a console.
1. The idea is to make new people interested in Steam.
2. Using Windows would mean reliance on a competitor who has the potential to pull the rug out from under them.
3. The point is to expend Steam's reach.
Chuck Norris
Banned
How arrogant they think they can cause such a shift in PC developmentra times away from Windows. Dead on arrival.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
It doesnt seem to offer the consumer anything, but for Valve and Gabe and whoever else wears the trousers in that often trouser-less environment, its a power play pure and simple. They dont want to be answerable to any of the console makers or indeed Microsoft with Windows as the main PC platform or Apple. Theyre hoping their fanatical fanbase has enough momentum to carve a path into a future where they simply do not have to give a shit and they get to call the hardware/OS shots.
I can forsee many will follow because Gaben is about as close to "the current Steve Jobs" figure you can get. Whole lotta upset in the console and PC world, and I feel theres going to be far more losers (devs and consumers both) than there are winners.
there's that dust game and splosion man, which are probably very good games but lol if that's supposed to be competitive to steams huge library.
it's probably better if it starts off with a fresh empty library. it makes it much more similar to a traditional console release with the slow drip
Baconsammy
Banned
Trials, Lumines Live, Trials Evolution, Shadow Complex, Ms Splosion Man, Splosion Man to name a few. Now keep in mind that I'm not saying Steam/PC dont have great indie games. I'm just saying why I, and others, value their current consoles. If we have to give up games to make this change, it won't work. And on top of that if the OS they've choses screws backwards compatibility and cuts me off from Blizzard games, that's a no-go for sure. I don't know who would want that.
It extends nothing if straight out of the box you tell people that they can't play the same games Steam PC players have access to.
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