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[jmga]

Ex-Valve Rich Geldreich has written on his blog about the significant impact Valve's Linux initiative had on the industry.

He and Gabe wrote this blog post more than 4 years ago exposing their results with OpenGL and Linux vs Windows. That blog post raised alarms at Microosoft, such is that they even paid a visit to Valve.

Gabe Newell himself wrote a lot of this post in front of me. From what I could tell, he seemed flabbergasted and annoyed that the team didn't immediately blog this info once we were solidly running faster in OpenGL vs. D3D. (Of course we should have blogged it ourselves! One of our missions as a team inside of Valve was to build a supportive community around our efforts.) From his perspective, it was big news that we were running faster on Linux vs. Windows. I personally suspect his social network didn't believe it was possible, and/or there was some deeper strategic business reason for blogging this info ASAP.

I stood behind Gabe and gave him all the data concerning GL vs. D3D performance while he typed the blog post in. I was (and still remain) extremely confident that our results were real. We conducted these tests as scientifically as we could, using two machines with the same hardware, configured in precisely the same way in the BIOS's, etc. NVidia and AMD were able to reproduce our results independently. Also, I could have easily made L4D2 on Linux GL run even faster vs. Windows, but we had other priorities like getting more Source1 games working, and helping Intel with their open source GL driver. From what I understand, Linux has some inherent advantages at the kernel level vs. Windows that impact driver performance.

...

A few weeks after this post went out, some very senior developers from Microsoft came by for a discrete visit. They loved our post, because it lit a fire underneath Microsoft's executives to get their act together and keep supporting Direct3D development. (Remember, at this point it was years since the last DirectX SDK release. The DirectX team was on life support.) Linux is obviously extremely influential.

It's perhaps hard to believe, but the Steam Linux effort made a significant impact inside of multiple corporations. It was a surprisingly influential project. Valve being deeply involved with Linux also gives the company a "worse case scenario" hedge vs. Microsoft. It's like a club held over MS's heads. They just need to keep spending the resources to keep their in-house Linux expertise in a healthy state.

Full blog post: http://richg42.blogspot.com.es/2017/01/the-faster-zombies-blog-post.html

Read of Phoronix: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Steam-Linux-Zombies-Back-Story

 

[etta]

That's good, right?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

"That blog post raised alarms at Microsoft, such is that they even paid a visit to Valve."

Aren't they like in the same building/vicinity? Atleast they were when I visited them...

Must've been a fun walk to Valve lol.

 

[tuxfool]

It would be interesting to compare whether windows graphics performance has improved since then, and if so, by how much. You'd need a static setup to compare across windows versions, but it is doable.

 

[JaseC]

"That blog post raised alarms at Microosoft, such is that they even paid a visit to Valve."

Aren't they like in the same building/vicinity? Atleast they were when I visited them...

Must've been a fun walk to Valve lol.

Not quite.

 

[Zedox]

That's what competition does. I'm glad that they did.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Not quite.

You just blew my mind! Thanks! Clearly, I went here instead, which is a 10 minute walk.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mtc/locations/seattle.aspx

 

[Glass Rebel]

It was either this or Half-Life 3, huh

This is super interesting though, Gabe out here playing chess.

 

[Caayn]

They loved our post, because it lit a fire underneath Microsoft's executives to get their act together and keep supporting Direct3D development (Remember, at this point it was years since the last DirectX SDK release. The DirectX team was on life support.)

Imagine how much further DirectX could've been if this didn't need to happen.

Even if Valve's Linux efforts haven't paid off yet for themselves it means that it has paid of for us the consumers. Light a fire under the giant's ass and get them into a production position again.

Fine example of competition and how it matters, even if they do different things.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Competition is good.

 

[JaseC]

You just blew my mind! Thanks! Clearly, I went here instead, which is a 10 minute walk.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mtc/locations/seattle.aspx

There's no need to be abrasive. I was just answering your question and assumed that by "Microsoft" you meant "Microsoft HQ" rather than "A Microsoft building" since Google Maps says the distance between the two is a 10-minute drive, so it fit your recollection that they're close together. More relatively close rather than physically close, granted, but close all the same.

 

[jelly]

Microsoft are the worst when they are on top. They just give up.

 

[Zedox]

Microsoft are the worst when they are on top. They just give up.

That's usually how most companies are...example: Apple, it's like they aren't even trying seriously anymore. Intel, bleh.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

There's no need to be abrasive. I was just answering your question and assumed that by "Microsoft" you meant "Microsoft HQ" rather than "A Microsoft building", and since Google Maps says the distance between the two is less than a 15-minute drive, it fit your recollection that they're close together.

I'm sorry, I'm actually being straight forward lol (Fuck me, I need to sleep). You did blow my mind and I'm thankful because I was visiting Valve when I bumped into MS building nearby, and said to myself "Neat! Microsoft!". I went and asked for "Free copy of Windows 9" (this was before Windows 10 was even announced lol), and they laughed and said "Top Secret!". And now, after all those years, I realized that I didn't even visit MS... :/

So yeah, thanks!

 

[JaseC]

I'm sorry, I'm actually being straight forward lol. You did blow my mind and I'm thankful because I was visiting Valve when I bumped into MS buildimg, and said to myself "Neat! Microsoft!". I went and asked for "Free copy of Windows 9" (this was before Windows 10 was even announced lol), and they laughed and said "Top Secret!". And now, after all those years, I realized that I didn't even visit MS... :/

So yeah, thanks!

Ah, right, haha. No harm, no foul.

 

[Sapiens]

That's good, right?

Good and bad. It keeps gaming dominant on Windows, which I generally stay away from. I would much prefer Linux to be the main gaming OS.

 

[ChryZ]

It's not just Linux though. Vulkan supports Windows, Linux, OSX, Android, etc ... Dx12 is Win10 only.

 

[justsomeguy]

Microsoft are the worst when they are on top. They just give up.

It's ... more nuanced than that. Priorities and people change, rather than it being an active "get to the top and give up" policy. sometimes a big external event is what is needed to shift those priorities again and that's what seems to have happened here.

That's in the old days anyway - nowdays the culture is more responsive, open to feedback both internal and external and people are encouraged to try, to experiment and to treat failures as learning opportunities not as things to be criticised for. This is directly down to Satya and his influence IMO.

 

[Sad Affleck]

What is the state of Valve's Linux push today? How is SteamOS these days?

 

[LelouchZero]

Wow this is really cool to hear about! Incredible really, I love their push for Steam on Linux!

Not quite.

Wow I had no idea they were so close!

 

[sugarhigh4242]

What is the state of Valve's Linux push today? How is SteamOS these days?

It's mostly the same experience as Big Picture Mode on any OS. It lags behind PS4 by a lot, but it's usable. There's no Rest/Standby feature, which kinda sucks. The game library picked up significantly this year with games like Deus Ex, Firewatch, Rocket League, and others. Major publishers like EA, Activision, Ubisoft, and Bethesda are not supporting SteamOS yet, which is probably the biggest mark against it.

 

[BriareosGAF]

This is directly down to Satya and his influence IMO.

Directly, eh?

Wow I had no idea they were so close!

It's more amusing to me how close Bungie and Valve are. FWIW I find the Studio campus at MSFT a bit of a pain; the traffic around it sucks and I can never figure out where the hell anything is when I'm walking from building to building. Also the commons is a little creepy... having a mall on your office grounds is just... really weird.

Always fun to play "count the Teslas" when you're near Bellevue/Redmond though.

 

[Tecnniqe]

I'm sorry, I'm actually being straight forward lol (Fuck me, I need to sleep). You did blow my mind and I'm thankful because I was visiting Valve when I bumped into MS building nearby, and said to myself "Neat! Microsoft!". I went and asked for "Free copy of Windows 9" (this was before Windows 10 was even announced lol), and they laughed and said "Top Secret!". And now, after all those years, I realized that I didn't even visit MS... :/

So yeah, thanks!

Windows 9 so secret we don't even know what it is to this day!

 

[Metal-Geo]

It's not just Linux though. Vulkan supports Windows, Linux, OSX, Android, etc ... Dx12 is Win10 only.

OSX?

 

[ChryZ]

OSX?

Fine, macOS ... you know what I meant.

 

[gamz]

Fine, macOS ... you know what I meant.

I think he means does it support osx. I think?

 

[empyrean]

I think he means does it support osx. I think?

As far as I'm aware Vulkan doesn't support OS X natively as Apple would be required to put out a driver that supports it which it won't due to metal.

 

[JaseC]

As far as I'm aware Vulkan doesn't support OS X natively as Apple would be required to put out a driver that supports it which it won't due to metal.

Yeah, Apple was actually listed as one of the supporting companies initially but later dropped out.

 

[Lazaro]

I'm guessing Apple like Nintendo and Sony use OpenGL code to build their own high-performance APIs.

 

[Crayon]

What is the state of Valve's Linux push today? How is SteamOS these days?

Warming up still. Almost half of the top 100 were on Linux this year.

 

[M3d10n]

I'm guessing Apple like Nintendo and Sony use OpenGL code to build their own high-performance APIs.

No, Apple created their own graphics API called "Metal" and basically left their OpenGL support to rot. Since Apple makes the GPU drivers for OSX themselves, they have total control over what and what isn't supported.

So, that makes three Mantle-like APIs: Metal, DX12 and Vulkan.

Of course, people already began working on Vulkan-Metal wrappers, so you can re-use the Vulkan code on OSX, but using Metal under the hood.

 

[Durante]

The whole Vulkan/Metal episode reminds me of just how full of shit Apple is. Too bad they seem to be Microsoft's aspiration these days.

 

[Joezie]

Awesome to hear. Here's to another year of a growing Linux game catalogue!

 

[Crayon]

The whole Vulkan/Metal episode reminds me of just how full of shit Apple is. Too bad they seem to be Microsoft's aspiration these days.

Yeah fuck all that.

 

[Poohblaster]

I'm mad at Valve for not making games I like anymore.

Screw their stupid science projects like Linux, Steam Machines, and VR.

 

[Trojan]

Based Gaben. Even though Linux gaming never caught, the very fact he made this a priority at Valve influenced Microsoft in a way that made the landscape better. What a good calculating move that was.

 

[Arulan]

That's good to hear, but I fear Microsoft's move is now one of slow change to get the closed-platform they desire.

Thanks Valve!

 

[MrCunningham]

That's good, right?

It is in my world.

I hate to post this again, but Vulkan is showing that it has a lot of prospects for the future. Just take a look at how well Doom 2016 runs under the Wine compatibility layer using native Vulkan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hnI6KGTfjI

 

[Sad Affleck]

Is Vulkan gaining any traction? Very few games are using it and many big games are missing from the Linux platform. Shouldn't progress be faster with Valve pushing for Linux adoption?

 

[MrCunningham]

Is Vulkan gaining any traction? Very few games are using it and many big games are missing from the Linux platform. Shouldn't progress be faster with Valve pushing for Linux adoption?

Vulkan is definitely gaining some traction, but right now the specs and not completely locked down and are still in development. It is still early times for the API. But Doom really makes a good case for what potential the API holds. UE4 has Vulkan functionality and even the Unity Engine have Vulkan betas available.

 

[jmga]

Is Vulkan gaining any traction? Very few games are using it and many big games are missing from the Linux platform. Shouldn't progress be faster with Valve pushing for Linux adoption?

There are several important developers from DICE and other relevant studios giving active feedback about the Vulkan API and shader compiler at github.

So at least they are trying.

Microsoft also said HLSL 6 compiler would be open source, and Shader Model 6 features are already on SPIR-V or listed for next release, so there won't be any reason to use D3D12 over Vulkan in the medium term when they release a HLSL6 to SPIR-V compiler based on MS official tools.

 

[collige]

The whole Vulkan/Metal episode reminds me of just how full of shit Apple is. Too bad they seem to be Microsoft's aspiration these days.

I mean, I understand why they went ahead with Metal given the state of Vulkan at the time, but their GPU support in general is just embarrassing. They could at least stop using an OpenGL version from 2010.

 

[Crayon]

Based Gaben. Even though Linux gaming never caught, the very fact he made this a priority at Valve influenced Microsoft in a way that made the landscape better. What a good calculating move that was.

The state of Linux gaming now would have been completely unbelievable 3 years ago. It caught on and it's going very well.

 

[Turin Turambar]

So competition works. Good.

 

[MJLord]

The state of Linux gaming now is completely unbelievable 3 years ago. It caught on and it's going very well.

I was almost tempted to make the switch over the holidays.

I booted up my Win10 machine and the bloody thing took 5 minutes to start after an update, once it had it started, it spawned a background process to run another installer for an update!

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

It's kind of a shame that Valve's SteamOS/Steambox initiative seems to have failed, as Windows is the big sticking point with me and PC Gaming.

If I build a PC, I want to built it to play games only. SteamOS being an operating system tuned just for doing that sounded amazing, but alas it looks like that dream is more or less dead.

No, Apple created their own graphics API called "Metal" and basically left their OpenGL support to rot. .

Which is a fucking shame, because it leaves relatively light games like Team Fortress 2 nigh unplayable on even modern Mac hardware.

 

[Gaogaogao]

it would be cool if valve could get behind vulkan, after doom I'm a believer.

 

[Somnid]

MS needs to build a half-life clone and blog about it.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Good and bad. It keeps gaming dominant on Windows, which I generally stay away from. I would much prefer Linux to be the main gaming OS.

You, I like you.

 

[Nzyme32]

it would be cool if valve could get behind vulkan, after doom I'm a believer.

They've been behind it from it's inception. Whenever Valve get round to releasing more content via Source 2 (seemingly this year), you can expect Vulkan to be a large part of it as they said along with the engines announcement.