Gemüsepizza
Member
It's faster than the Xbox 360, but PS4 has 4GB RAM with 192GB/s.
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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...
- Thread starter Shikoro
- Start date
It's faster than the Xbox 360, but PS4 has 4GB RAM with 192GB/s.
oversitting
Banned
I thought they only did the 2 side so they can fit them on the DIMM. On an actual motherboard, shouldn't they just be able to stick them in a circle around the cpu/gpu?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Which is why it wouldn't be done, surely? It would increase the launch price.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
And convinced Bungie to scrap the work they were doing for the Mac and bring it over to their console. Without Ed Fries I seriously doubt they would have been so successful.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
16 RAM chips is if they use 4 Gbit (4 x 16 / 8 = 8GBytes) DDR3 2133 chips, 16 RAM chips is more than likely not an option, it complicates your motherboard design and drives up board cost, this cost will likely be carried for the entire life of the console IE die shrinks will not help reduce it.
The second issue I was pointing out with the speculated bandwidth is that you require a 256bit bus to achieve it, this means you cannot shrink the chips down below a certain size or the bus will not physically fit, so you are stuck with a moderately sized chip in the latter part of the consoles life.
One more thing that bothers me about the proposed design is single thread performance is still vital, crap single thread performance means crap multithread performance, means crap performance. Hence I dont get the reason MS would have gone with a CPU of only 1.6 Ghz.
oversitting
Banned
Can Crusher
Banned
It would've bombed hard without Halo.
Death Dealer
Member
It think it's in the mid 200 range. And strangely, discounting the edram, the rsx die was actually considerably larger than xenos. Yet was mostly outperformed. Xenos unified shaders were a game changer. It's going to take an even bigger game changer for MS's system to equal Sony's with seemingly only 2/3 of the GPU logic die area. Last gen, I think on paper things looked more evenly matched. Sony seemed to follow conventional wisdom this time around and built the best gaming system it could using capable but not heavily bespoke parts like Cell. The Xbox seems like the more exotic configuration time time, it's built with many other capabilities besides gaming in mind. And will probably have a full windows operating system with many PC like functions.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Thanks for that. Much more readable/understandable than my attempts.
oversitting
Banned
you can shrink the bus just like any chip. they have 256bit bus in the 28nm gpus same with the 40nm ones. The buses take up more relative space but the whole chip gets much smaller.
you can switch the chips with a small controller redesign. Saying they are stuck with 16 chips is like saying if you upgrade your PC from 4 GB of ram to 8 GB and it won't work.
Single thread performance isn't vital. the 360 and the ps3 has horrible single threaded performance and they worked fine.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Most likely
Can Crusher
Banned
Really?
Like really really? People were saying PS3 was gonna turn 360 into smoke.
Brakes my heart that such a man wouldn't be given his worth by the company.
Makes it unlikely but not impossible. MS might go for it.
You can easily shrink it down to 8 chips later when those chips are available.
Higher resolutions, less performance hit with transparencies, more effects are possible, etc.
Phire Phox
Banned
When are the Orbis specs supposed to be leaked?
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Robbie Bach's answer to the question of what he thinks gaming will look like in 10 to 15 years is also interesting:
Robbie Bach said:
It's still not been ten years, but it seems he was spot on, and even without him, Microsoft (together with the rest of the industry) keeps moving in that direction.
Nobody knows. VGLeaks said "soon".
You cannot shrink a bus my point is sometime in the future you cannot shrink the chip down below a certain area, nothing directly to do with feature size. So for instance at 14nm you could shrink the chip down to say 100mm^2 but you cannot route 256 bit bus into an area that small so you cannot have the chip of 100mm^2 you instead have to go for 140mm^2. So large parts of the die are redundant with the only features in there being for routing wires. So yes you can keep going down in node size / feature size but your chip area will have to remain at a certain size.That is my understanding anyway.
Oh did I say you are stuck with 16 chips my bad I meant you are stuck with a 256bit bus, 16 chips on a board just drives up your initial cost. If MS are going for 8GBytes then I assume there are 8 Gbit ram chips around even top of the range GPUs don't ship with 16 chips on one board - maybe special editions but nothing for the mainstream anyway.
Their single thread performance was not horrible if you optimised your code, Mr Carmack touched on this in a round about manner in his Quakecon interview - he said you could go away and tune your code on a console and come out with a 100% performance increase but on PC with the same optimisation you got a 2% increase, why? The CPUs on PC do a good job of optimising code on their own and hiding latency and increasing throughput. The processors on current gen systems were not bad but they lacked OoOE which the programmer was expected to compensate for look at them they both run at high clock speed. How much further ahead are we from 3.2Ghz their issue width is a few steps behing top of the range PC CPUs but given the time they were released I dont even think we had Quad cores at the time.
My beef with the proposed CPU is it is most likely less than half as wide as Haswell, and runs at less than half the clockspeed no amount of code optimisation for single thread performance can mask that. So you rely on MT performance but by its very nature if you have poor ST performance you have poor MT performance - see Bulldozer.
That is without taking into account the 32MB eSRAM. Don't forget, the ps3 had a little over double the available bandwidth of the 360 (48 vs 22.4) but the 10MB eDRAM, limited as it was both in size and capability, more than made up for the difference. The eSRAM of the 720 is about 3.2x large and from all indication, a lot more useful than the eDRAM in the 360.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I also really liked Allard. His enthusiasm was always so palpable.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
You wanna see the same thing posted for the fifth time?
Death Dealer
Member
From what I see, the Orbis GPU looks stronger compared to Durango's than Xenos was compared to RSX. Last gen they both had 512mb total ram. Next gen PS4 with straightforward 4GB unified GDDR5 at 192GB/s seems more optimal than 8GB of DDR with a 32MB ESRAM. The ESRAM plus move DMA will help out a lot with bw shortcomings, but developers will have to make their game conform to its quirks. I guess the superb MS SDK will help. DDR3 was a compromise for 8GB. MS went with the slow DDR-3 ram plus esram buffer because it allowed to them to afford 8GB, enough for their greater ambitions. From what I've read, the GPU would struggle to even use more than 3-4 GB of it anyways, so it is good to reserve a lot of it for kinnect 2, plus all of the apps and other functions they'll make for the OS.
oversitting
Banned
Lol, if you have that post bookmarked from the guy who said that, come back in 5 years and we can laugh at him.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Haha no kidding. Is there any mystery left? I guess other than them revamping something it all seems to be there.
Death Dealer
Member
There is a limit to how much it can access in a frame. You won't get higher res textures or more draw distance if the GPU can't keep up. All it will do is cache.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Good thing then that games also use the CPU, not just the GPU.
That would be the Xbox 540 stage.
All very true points, but even with eSRAM, Orbis is rumored to have higher bandwidth. What you're saying can help with transparencies, but not with resolution where fill rate is king. Maybe we'll get games that render at 1440p and downsample to 1080p at first.
Q
Queen of Hunting
Unconfirmed Member
not sure if this means anything but the xbox insider emails say 2013 on xbox and not xbox360
grimshawish
Banned
I remember this very very differently.
I remember a bunch of mental people shouting at a brick wall and generally being treated worse than even being laughed at, they were being ignored.
Think about it little more. If OS is taking 3GB, that will lower effective gaming bandwidth to mere 42 GB/s (six 4gbit DDR3 chips less). That's 1.4GB of data per one frame in 30fps game, or 700MB per one frame in 60fps game. PS4 will always have access to 3.2GB of data per one frame in 60fps game. That is a big difference THAT WILL MATTER.
shinobi602
Member
Jesus how fast time flies.
I swear it feels like yesterday when DDR3 was new hotness. Now it's shit apparently lol.
I swear it feels like yesterday when DDR3 was new hotness. Now it's shit apparently lol.
Can Crusher
Banned
You must be trying to rewrite history.
The only time shit got bad for Sony was when 599 dropped. Until then, it was gonna be gaming nirvana, and it was gonna be the most advanced console by far, and the Cell was gonna blow the 360 away.
Want to sign up?
Ironchef3500
Banned
Can Crusher
Banned
But none of what you are saying will probably happen, so why try so hard to convince people that it will?
Take a break.
Ironchef3500
Banned
I don't think I'd pass the physical, I'm too old. But you kids enjoy it, I remember those Sega/Nintendo wars...back on topic, I didn't see a blast processor on that diagram.
Nobody knows what will happen. All bets are viable. This is GAF.
Jake Tower
Banned
Begun, the Console Wars have.
I'm not afraid.
There is no need for the rumored part, it does have higher bandwidth than the 720. What makes me interested in the tech specs of the 720 will be how it goes about mitigating the low bandwidth situation. The eSRAM has a role to play in it and so does some of the Data Move Engines, atleast going by the posts of proelite, aegies and most especially, ERP from B3D. If they can design the console to eliminate the bandwidth disadvantage, then it will be an interesting system I think. I am always fascinated by the whole 'working around limitation', 'doing more with less' and 'maximizing available resources' mentality. You should read the "Xenos Demystified" article on B3D, it goes indepth into the design and choices MS and AMD (ATi at the time) made in developing Xenos. One of my favorite tech article.
Proelite
Member
Battle of Midway.
Are you strong enough?
Are you petty enough?
Idk man you look a little too green for the console war. Can you survive e3?
Hope someone is old enough to get the space balls reference.
Sorry I don't. But appropriate name for a system war.
It's all about data move engines now.
You will be
grimshawish
Banned
Maybe it depends where you were having conversations.
Cell was always treated pretty questionably. Any time fanboys are shouting a random word they don't understand and never explaining what or why is a signal really.
I've no doubt Sony fans were saying stuff like that but overall am pretty sure everyone expected it to be pretty damn close.