Melchiah
Member
"Good is a point of view, Anakin."
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Video Games Are Better Without Stories
- Thread starter RedlineRonin
- Start date
"Good is a point of view, Anakin."
More_Badass
Member
Just to answer this, yes, of course Mario is art. Why are you assuming that that debate excludes gameplay focused games? All games are art, even Call of Duty, and just like every other medium, being bad or derivative doesn't make it not art. And just like The Raid and Moonlight can excel in completely different ways, so can games. Tetris or Mario are as much examples of the art of games as Journey is
AudioEppa
Member
I try to refrain from going off, because this topic (that I've seen too many times) always gets my blood pressure high. Oh yeah I'm super super emotional about it. So the following is me in my goddamn feels.
Every person who either makes, and or writes about video games in the last 5+ years that keeps making these comments regarding what the industry should be. Seriously need to get the hell over it.
Gaming has evolved decade by decade. How it looks in 2017 is how the people want and like it. And when you look at the industry right now you see a shit ton of different games being released in the market across multiple platforms. Yet people still bitch because a few game developers cater to a million+ audience that like cinematic narrative stories, but why? Because it's directed like film or tv show? Oh the sleepless horror🙄
A lot of people don't care about a number of games such as Doom, Skyrim, Minecraft. And I don't know the exact numbers, But I'm pretty sure there is more 'gameplay focused' then story games. But there's no articles saying 'Video Games would be better without gameplay mechanics'
I just don't understand the need to attack games that want to make storytelling the primary focus.
All these years did it stop other kind of games from being made?
After a solid snake became an icon. Did Mario and Luigi have to get new second job?
It seriously can't be because of popularity, Because there's plenty of popular games that don't focus on story.
Within our gaming community it feels like there is a group of bitter individuals that no matter how many so called hardcore games that cater to them. They're never satisfied because others enjoy something different.
I hate to think what things could be like right now if many years ago certain story games never existed.
Every person who either makes, and or writes about video games in the last 5+ years that keeps making these comments regarding what the industry should be. Seriously need to get the hell over it.
Gaming has evolved decade by decade. How it looks in 2017 is how the people want and like it. And when you look at the industry right now you see a shit ton of different games being released in the market across multiple platforms. Yet people still bitch because a few game developers cater to a million+ audience that like cinematic narrative stories, but why? Because it's directed like film or tv show? Oh the sleepless horror🙄
A lot of people don't care about a number of games such as Doom, Skyrim, Minecraft. And I don't know the exact numbers, But I'm pretty sure there is more 'gameplay focused' then story games. But there's no articles saying 'Video Games would be better without gameplay mechanics'
I just don't understand the need to attack games that want to make storytelling the primary focus.
All these years did it stop other kind of games from being made?
After a solid snake became an icon. Did Mario and Luigi have to get new second job?
It seriously can't be because of popularity, Because there's plenty of popular games that don't focus on story.
Within our gaming community it feels like there is a group of bitter individuals that no matter how many so called hardcore games that cater to them. They're never satisfied because others enjoy something different.
I hate to think what things could be like right now if many years ago certain story games never existed.
Unaha-Closp
Member
If there is no Story in a video game I am 99% more likely to not play it. Pure gameplay mechanics is all well and good but what if it had a Story too?
So if Stories go the way of the Dodo - then that will be my sign to get out of playing video games.
So if Stories go the way of the Dodo - then that will be my sign to get out of playing video games.
Pankratous
Member
No story, no purchase.
I'm there for the story.
I'm there for the story.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Pretty much this. I probably wouldn't totally quit, but gaming would move way down my hobby list.
I do like some pure gameplay things like the occasional puzzler or fighter, so I'd still play those. But 95%+ of my gaming is with narrative driven titles so those going away would just push me away and even more into movies, shows and books.
RedlineRonin
Member
Really? You can say that absolutely? With 100% certainty?
I just find it odd.
For example, I dl'd Totally Accurate Battle Simulator last night. It's Alpha and you can get it free from the dev's website right now.
It was totally fun to just screw around with. It's a sandbox in the truest form,and has no story at all and was really fun. I'll totally throw them $20 or something when it's out, even if it's just a bunch more of what's already there; units, "levels" etc.
Most of my favorite games of all time (ME:2, Nier: A, UC4) are there because they have amazing stories. Stories are super important to me. I just wouldn't ever say no to a game just because it didn't have one.
ivan.k
Member
Maybe you should read more books then
seems very limiting
If your entangled, entitled feelings of how videos games should be aren't able to withstand dissenting voices then maybe I'm not the one that needs to take a break from such "critical conversation
AudioEppa
Member
When it comes to 'no story, no purchase' I agree with that with mindset, but then it gets technical like what is the actual story about.
Overall story is the 1 of 2 big selling points. Next is camera angle.
Now when it comes to sandbox / open world games. For me personally all that freedom bores me. I would find maybe 5 minutes at the most of entertainment from just doing something random. Stories missions keep me focused and I have more fun as the plot progresses.
Because it blends gameplay and narration together in a way where missing one of them would significantly weaken the entire thing.
Some of it's strongest emotional scenes can only happen because of your interaction with the game, because you're not only an onlooker watching the characters. You are choosing their actions (to a certain degree, ofc there are regular cutscenes as well).
And Ending E is straight up impossible to recreate in a movie and is the most powerful moment in the entire game, which I don't really want to spoil.
I think it's fine that the author has this opinion. However, I don't think it's fair to impose on or expect this line of thinking from the game creators around the world. Each of the developers has his or her own answer to push the craft of game as a medium forward. This diversity can only be beneficial to gaming as a whole.
Everyone consumes interactive media for a wide variety of reasons. The narrative being one of them. Video games, being interactive media is the culmination of all previous art forms guided by interactivity. Saying that it shouldn't have narratives is akin to saying films should focus on cinematography and not scripts, or songs should focus on music rhythms and not care about lyrics.
That has nothing to do with preferring games to have heavy narrative elements.
Everyone consumes interactive media for a wide variety of reasons. The narrative being one of them. Video games, being interactive media is the culmination of all previous art forms guided by interactivity. Saying that it shouldn't have narratives is akin to saying films should focus on cinematography and not scripts, or songs should focus on music rhythms and not care about lyrics.
That has nothing to do with preferring games to have heavy narrative elements.
RedlineRonin
Member
Interesting. Different strokes, and all...
I'm with you on defining what a story is about. Or even more broadly, what we mean by "story."
E.g. you could argue the "story" in ME2 is horrendous, if you're talking about the main plot, but i personally consider it one of the best stories of all time, based on the individual plot lines of each character, culminating in some awesome loyalty missions.
Similarly, I think some folks aren't a huge fan of the broader plot that's in UC4, but for me, the "story" of the relationship between Nate and Elena is one of the single best portrayals of a real relationship in games, and 100% why I love that game.
Maybe even using the term "story" is just too ubiquitous and broad?
Missed this excellent take a few pages back, but you're absolutely right.
I think this is the challenge that games uniquely face, is how to make the bolded interesting from a gameplay standpoint.
I eluded in the OP, but I don't agree with a large majority of what the article says (same with most on this forum, I'm sure). That being said, there's validity to some criticism of "why" for a specific medium. Sure, a default position can be "why not," but i think the real challenge is what do you do with the bolded above to justify making it a game, versus a movie/book/poem/whatever.
And do you actually do disservice to one of those topics by building an interactive experience that is hampered by technical issues, poor writing etc? I don't know those answers. I know I want to play the types of games you're referencing. I just don't know how to make them that justifies them being interactive experiences? I don't think that story + interactivity = automatically better than just story. It has to be done right.
There are some games that I wish had less story. There are some games that I think could have benefited from more narration. Most are fine as they are.
As long as your narrative fits your game's play-style, there is room for both.
My biggest pet peeve in gaming is in-game tutorial-itis. Give me an in-game reference database, or do what FFXV did and shove the Tutorial into an optional game mode, but don't force me to spend the first few hours of the game proceeding through a set of tutorials aimed at someone who has never played your series (or even the genre) before.
I have way more tolerance for cutscenes than I do forced tutorials.
As long as your narrative fits your game's play-style, there is room for both.
My biggest pet peeve in gaming is in-game tutorial-itis. Give me an in-game reference database, or do what FFXV did and shove the Tutorial into an optional game mode, but don't force me to spend the first few hours of the game proceeding through a set of tutorials aimed at someone who has never played your series (or even the genre) before.
I have way more tolerance for cutscenes than I do forced tutorials.
AudioEppa
Member
My game of the generation. U4 💙
Yeah their relationship was always the highlight of whole series for me. Honestly it was the motivation to keep going and see how they develop them. Anything else enjoyable was a bonus.
Well the big, primary reason people say it couldn't work in any other medium is a massive spoiler, but I guess there are other small things such as:
- Multiple playthroughs/routes that stack upon one another
- Concepts such as saving or dying being recontextualized in regards to you playing as an android (You save your memory through scattered access points instead of you being able to save everywhere. If you die, it takes your most recently uploaded memory (the last time you saved), and puts you in a new body, leaving you to have to retrieve your old body if you want the data/memories (chips and EXP) equipped to it.)
- Route B minor spoiler
Early on in Route A, your partner 9S says he's recording you configure your settings, such as brightness, volume, etc. In Route B, you go through this again, only you view the recording instead of configuring it once again.
Etc. etc.
Some of the listed can be replicated to some extent in another medium, but it works far more effectively in a game due to the gameplay mechanics intertwining with the characters and world you're in.
I'd like to point out something in the last of us that couldn't be done as well in a movie.
When you get to the end and it looks like they are going to make you choose between saving Ellie and possibly saving humanity. While they don't give you that choice the fact you think you are about to have make the choice puts you in Joel's shoes and let's you feel the same choice he's feeling. I was raging because I wanted to save Ellie but I also wanted to save humanity. And while I think joel as a character probably wasn't as conflicted (I'm pretty sure saving humanity was not near as important as saving some one he cared about) as it was it let me feel how it might be like to be in his shoes. I was about to (or thought I was) make that choice. A movie couldn't do that as well as I just sit back and let the character make his choice. I may disagree with the choice but I don't get to feel the unfairness in having to be the one to make the choice. In fact I was relieved when I realized that it was not going to be in my hands.
Se_7_eN
Member
Lol, Book of Memories for the Vita didn't have a story, at least I don't think it did.... And that is why I never bothered with it. Well, that and because it looked terrible.
Personally, I play a lot of games FOR the story. So this article does not relate well with me.
Sure they are. Storytelling is storytelling.
Films adapt novels and plays all the time, and we're free to compare which we think accomplish their narrative goals - by the standards of their own medium, but also by the standard of the story itself. Did they accomplish what they set out to tell? And were they helped or hampered by their narrative choices?
I'm not saying TLOU is bad or even average. It's good! But it's also... well, generic dystopic pastiche.
And this is one of the limits of videogames; you have to set the story within something where there's constant action and violence - and 99.99% of stories just aren't like that. Severly hampers what you can do with pacing. Even the greatest war films aren't wall to wall violence, you know? IT's what happens in between the action scenes that gives the action weight.
It's why the best videogame stories are still in WRPGs imo, because they offer choice and consequence. The "action" is dialogue trees and conversations, and dialogue is the most common form of establishing storytelling.
Games that openly acknoweldge that the player has no agency, and dispenses with the illusion that there is any player freedom at all (Portal!!!) also succeed really well.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
If a game has a story, then fine, but to me gameplay always should come first no matter the genre. I sometimes even feel that developers are trying to compete more with Hollywood instead of trying to create a truly great interactive experiences. A great story is definitely a bonus to me, but quality gameplay should be mandatory imho. I just do not understand the gamers who feel that a great playing game is terrible because something like the writing is lackluster or the story is forgettable. Was it fun though? Gameplay keeps me and most other players coming back consistently. Why do you play COD over and over. Why do people put hundreds of hours into Street Fighter and Tekken? I put a plethora of time into certain games because they are enjoyable to me, not because of the story. A great story is memorable and admittedly can add to the package, but it doesn't keep me coming back to play the game though. Think of it this way. How many times do you play fighting games online or with your friends? Ok, how many times do you play the story modes with those characters? Having a captivating story and amazing gameplay is great, but developers to me shouldn't be pressured to have excellent gameplay and award winning stories and that is where a lot of gamers expectations are unfortunately and to me it is not realistic and even unfair to the creators.
So, would gamers tolerate with terrible, frustrating, putrid and boring gameplay as long as the story was intriguing to them? I know I wouldn't, especially if I wasn't enjoying the game or getting really agitated by it.
So, would gamers tolerate with terrible, frustrating, putrid and boring gameplay as long as the story was intriguing to them? I know I wouldn't, especially if I wasn't enjoying the game or getting really agitated by it.
I think the issue is that narrative and cinematics don't really play to the strength of the medium. Some gameplay-oriented people view videogame stories as those that should emerge from the gameplay itself (like Super Metroid) rather than those that have non-interactive cutscenes (like MGS). So they criticize the cutscene focus of some games because they don't use the possibilities of what the medium can confer on the user.
Personally, I see their point. I prefer games that have a "reverse-auteur" emphasis on player agency and tool set. When the "author" of a videogame inserts himself too much into the game, I tend to lose interest. That doesn't mean it's wrong and I don't like the fact those games exist (they're great games). But I do reserve the right to politely criticize them.
As far as what the industry "should" be....I agree with you. I think the industry already is as it should be. We have more variety than ever before and great games are released by the fist-full every month now. I've even enjoyed many narrative-driven games like Chrono Trigger and Zelda (which is one of my favorite series ever).
More_Badass
Member
Fun gameplay isn't the be-all-end-all of what makes a game enjoyable though. Being fun isn't the ultmate measure. Being engaging is, and you don't need "fun" gameplay to be engaging
And to answer your question, I play CoD and shmups and puzzlers for completely different reasons from why I play a Life Is Strange or Gone Home. Just like one can enjoy movies for different reasons
Baleoce
Member
He is on point.
Spot on.
Stilton Disco
Member
Nothing turns me off a game faster than a complete lack of any kind of narrative driving the gameplay. If all I'm doing is keeping my hands busy like that, I'd rather be making something, cooking, or completing household chores.
Saying that, games without stories can be fun, disposable distractions, especially mobile/handheld titles that allow you to kill time you'd otherwise be wasting in question or on journeys, but never truly stay with me or hold my interest for long.
A good story, well realised characters or just a loose plot to follow will hold my interest and keep me engaged for hundreds of hours though, and stick with me for years, even decades, long after the muscle memory and briefly distracting busywork of simply gameplay has gone from my recollection.
Saying that, games without stories can be fun, disposable distractions, especially mobile/handheld titles that allow you to kill time you'd otherwise be wasting in question or on journeys, but never truly stay with me or hold my interest for long.
A good story, well realised characters or just a loose plot to follow will hold my interest and keep me engaged for hundreds of hours though, and stick with me for years, even decades, long after the muscle memory and briefly distracting busywork of simply gameplay has gone from my recollection.
Miniature Kaiju
Member
"Do. Or do not. There is no try." Yoda confirmed Sith. (more like Obi-Wan is a myopic, hypocritical Jedi).
DirtyLarry
Member
Apparently I am in the minority here but I have always said I do not care at all about stories in video games, and I stick by that sentiment. I will not argue the fact that if it does have a good story it makes it that much more compelling, but I guess that is where things get interesting, as I do not believe many games at all have anywhere near what I consider to be a good story.
I also am a bit older and read a whole lot. A whole lot.
I also come from a time where games had no story at all besides what was either on the cover or a brief sentence or two before the game began. And I was/am fine with that.
I play games to do just that, play them. Story has never mattered. Again, if it has a decent story besides gameplay, yes, I am a bit more engrossed. But some games I have enjoyed over the years I believe the story has been awful, and I am okay with that.
I also am a bit older and read a whole lot. A whole lot.
I also come from a time where games had no story at all besides what was either on the cover or a brief sentence or two before the game began. And I was/am fine with that.
I play games to do just that, play them. Story has never mattered. Again, if it has a decent story besides gameplay, yes, I am a bit more engrossed. But some games I have enjoyed over the years I believe the story has been awful, and I am okay with that.
Adam_Vania
Banned
to this day i remember playing Assassin's Creed IV for the first time. it was my first AC game and i was enthralled. here i was, a pirate, running through tropical jungles, scouring beautiful lagoons, etc.
then they took my VR headset off and i was in a fucking office building just like my work. i was forced to sit and spend the next 10 minutes pretending to listen to fake coworkers instead of living my ultimate pirate fantasy.
it was the main reason i never finished that game. amazing, incredible, best pirate game ever, and it was utterly ruined by the idiotic meta story.
then they took my VR headset off and i was in a fucking office building just like my work. i was forced to sit and spend the next 10 minutes pretending to listen to fake coworkers instead of living my ultimate pirate fantasy.
it was the main reason i never finished that game. amazing, incredible, best pirate game ever, and it was utterly ruined by the idiotic meta story.
AudioEppa
Member
I get it and it's totally cool that people like games for different reasons. For me, I love a good cutscene. It's a nice break between the actual controlling part. I can relax in my chair, have some snacks and watch a mini film that recharges me to continue on.
Also I have no general problem with criticizing story games, or any video game. But my one issue I see repetitively happening in our community is people criticize specific types of games that are not developed for them in mind.
It's like if I played some random MMORPG and complained about it after. That's dumb on me because already know I hate those kind of games, so I don't play them.
This industry is big enough for any game can fit in and people should have enough sense to just avoid with doesn't satisfy their personal preference. Creating articles like the one this thread is based on is pointless. The medium is great right now. And I say that as somebody who doesn't have a lot of games on the market that I want to play. Naughty Dog can't whip up more Uncharted every six months. Telltale can't release new episodes weekly. And Rockstar will never have a new game out on a yearly released schedule.
But this is where I appreciate the pure gameplay types of games. With multiplayer titles such a rocket league and call of duty. It helps pass time waiting for the next story game I want to play.
You know, I disagree with the claim in the OP since stories do well for some games, but cookie-cutter hollywoodesque stories in games that bring nothing really interesting to the table by taking themselves too seriously when they shouldn't are to blame to me, we definitely need less of those around.
As others have said in the thread, something well thought out like Last of Us is OK, but maybe we need less Mass Effects around the industry, you know what I'm saying? Nothing against Mass Effect, it's just that the game all around thinks of itself as if its story was some ultra-hot shit that everyone should want to jump on but in the end the dialog feels amateurish, the plot and the characters feel like they were designed by teenagers with too much money to burn, and the whole thing feels... eh, for lack of a better word.
Like if you had taken all of the manpower that produced the whole story and repurposed it into making the core game and its mechanics richer, maybe it'd been better. Simplify the story, make it barebones like Rayman Legends...
As others have said in the thread, something well thought out like Last of Us is OK, but maybe we need less Mass Effects around the industry, you know what I'm saying? Nothing against Mass Effect, it's just that the game all around thinks of itself as if its story was some ultra-hot shit that everyone should want to jump on but in the end the dialog feels amateurish, the plot and the characters feel like they were designed by teenagers with too much money to burn, and the whole thing feels... eh, for lack of a better word.
Like if you had taken all of the manpower that produced the whole story and repurposed it into making the core game and its mechanics richer, maybe it'd been better. Simplify the story, make it barebones like Rayman Legends...
MrS
Banned
Missing out on a lot of great games i.e. Resogun, N++, Destiny, Salt and Sanctuary, Overwatch, Thumper, Rocket League and Nioh.
Personally, my favourite games this gen have been devoid of story (see above) but I've loved a lot of the story-focused Q1 2017 games we've had such as P5, Nier and Horizon. It seems way too limiting and arbitrary to say "I'll only buy story-focused games" or "I'll only buy games that aren't story-focused".
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Bloodborne. Most of the story in that game is conveyed through you moving about the world and interacting with things.
You could adapt anything into a movie, but for Bloodborne to work as a movie you would have to completely overhaul the way it's told.
Kadayi
Banned
For a game to engage me nowadays I generally need some skin in it in terms of a narrative investment. Whether that's an RPG like ME, adventure like LIS or something a bit more emergent like CK2 or XCOM2.
Fair to say I don't do much in the way of Multiplayer these days. Though I think that's a reflection of getting old and life priorities changing.
Fair to say I don't do much in the way of Multiplayer these days. Though I think that's a reflection of getting old and life priorities changing.
More_Badass
Member
What is a Hollywood-esque story? Do you mean like a blockbuster: Bombastic, slight characterization, and so on? There are myriad action thrillers on book shelves like that too (Matthew Reilly's books, James Rollins' Sigma Force, Jack Reacher, Maberry's Joe Ledger, etc); that isn't something unique to Hollywood or film. And I don't think many would agree with saying "just take those kinds of books out of book stores, just stop writing them or just write less of them"
How many "Mass Effects" do we even have in this industry? You make it sound like it's rampant to have series with that kind of scope.
Gunslinger
Member
I think most genre can do without story. But some really need it. Imagine playing an rpg with no story. Or single player only games. It would be pretty boring and just another online grinding game.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I think that MOST (something like 99%) games have pretty bad / bland stories. But I think it is still necessary most of the time so the game can justify itself (the world, the missions, and stuff).
In the other hand, I much prefer a game to focus on it's gameplay mechanics rather than story. I think the main thing on a video-game is the interaction the player has with it, reason why the gameplay mechanics should always come first.
However, the best games usually have both: a good story and good gameplay. And when a dev mmanages to get both right, oh boy, it usually turns out to be very remarkable (Persona, The Last of Us, Metal Gear Solid, etc.).
In the other hand, I much prefer a game to focus on it's gameplay mechanics rather than story. I think the main thing on a video-game is the interaction the player has with it, reason why the gameplay mechanics should always come first.
However, the best games usually have both: a good story and good gameplay. And when a dev mmanages to get both right, oh boy, it usually turns out to be very remarkable (Persona, The Last of Us, Metal Gear Solid, etc.).
Video games are a medium. Like every medium, we all come to it for different things, and that's fine. Mediums are big and contain multitudes. There's plenty of room for every kind of game, and every kind of story within the medium, and none of them are right and none of them are wrong.
You may not like games with minimal gameplay. Someone else may not likes games with minimal story. You're both right, because it's nothing but a personal preference.
Play the games you like, don't play the ones you don't, and quit trying to shrink the medium to fit your preferences.
You may not like games with minimal gameplay. Someone else may not likes games with minimal story. You're both right, because it's nothing but a personal preference.
Play the games you like, don't play the ones you don't, and quit trying to shrink the medium to fit your preferences.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
timetokill
Banned
The way you keep using reductive, and what arguments you are applying it to, suggests you don't understand the meaning of the term. More_Badass, meanwhile, understood what I meant by those comments and came back with a more substantive argument -- something you are either unwilling or unable to provide. My words are without pretense -- I am aiming to elucidate the author's meaning when it appears that the common reaction in here is to confuse "better without" to mean "should never have." Your perspective, meanwhile, is simply to dismiss and mock, in fact engaging in the exact kind of reductive behavior you claim to dislike. As far as perspective goes, hopefully you realize that yours is one of projection. If you don't have anything of substance to say about the article itself, and instead want to attack me personally, feel free to take it to PMs. Or, you know, chill the fuck out.
I don't think the author is arguing in favor of shrinking the medium at all. He is not claiming that certain games should not be made. The argument is one of the merits of the medium itself and not necessarily particular examples of it, though he obviously points to Finch in particular to illustrate why it is the use of the medium that makes it effective, and not the narrative itself.
While I love Portal, and several other games that I have loved have used this as their central "point" (Bioshock being one of them, which makes its point and then frustratingly offers no solution whatsoever). I worry that is in danger of becoming trite, if it hasn't already.
Once again, your first instinct is to arrogantly claim that I don't even understand the words I am using. Because that is your primary method of argumentation: not responding to the criticism, but claiming your opponent's arguments are invalid. Then you desperately, cloyingly, attempt to corral support by complimenting someone who had disagreed with you. Your arguments, on their face, are incredibly self-serving. You aren't aiming to elucidate anything, you are aiming to conceal yourself in someone else's legitimacy. As far as chilling the fuck out goes... maybe find a mirror?
As for your point that "the common reaction in here is to confuse 'better without' to mean 'should never have'", I would argue that we all perfectly understand his position, and we just strongly disagree. That many of us think it would be a mistake to "abandon the dream of becoming narrative media". Because it isn't a dream., there are already games that succeed brilliantly in that respect. That is why this article gets my back up, because it spits on the excellent work people are doing right now. I want games to be diverse, I want them to offer different experiences, some of those experiences should absolutely be narratively driven.
Melchiah
Member
I wish more people remembered that.
timetokill
Banned
You might notice that's only happening with you, because you're the only person who seems to be digging this hole. Again, if you just want to bitch at me, take it to PMs and stop derailing the thread. If you want to discuss the article, please do. I'm not going to keep doing this in this thread.
Also the idea that I'm complimenting More_Badass just to corral support is fucking hilarious XD He reacted like an adult. Take heed.
The Last Wizard
Member
Whatever buddy, I struggle to finish a game when I'm not invested in it's story. It works for some games where the story isn't given straight to you but it needs to be there. The day games don't have stories is probably when I check out.
You keep agitating like a child, and then posture as if you are taking some moral highroad. You are a real piece of work... If you want to PM me, go ahead. However, I am going to still call you out on your puerile nonsense.
As for you only being dissmissive towards me...
timetokill said:
Those three quotes are from the last three pages of this discussion thread. Because you just can't help yourself...
I did some say some in the community mate, not all. And because some do, any time the art discussion comes up, here's a laundry list of stories this medium has told, but barely any conversation on why the game, the mechanics, are an art form themselves.
But your Raid and Moonlight example, to me misses a pretty fundamental difference. The Raid doesn't achieve what it tries to do by being less of a movie, it's not like they just phone it in on the camera work or something. Can't speak to that movie, but what makes John Wick, a badass action movie, is as much the cinematography and fight choreography as is "main character does cool shit", the film also happens to have a distinct look to help it stick out.
Some of these story driven games, do it by being less of a game or at least interactive. I agree with your general stance that not all games need to be "fun", I don't think fun is the best description for even the best mechanical games. Sometimes the satisfaction is the brutal competition, the challenge of it all, but at the end of the day I want the interactive elements to be a meaningful part of the expereince.
They need to be fun or engaging or interesting or compelling, or whatever, and often I feel some of these low mechanics/story driven adventure games don't actually achieve their goal of making the interaction a significant part of the gameplay. And that to me is a huge short coming.
You mentioned Life is Strange, and no it's not the most perfect example, but that Kate sequence made my interactions and my ocd nature to explore every room an important part of the experience.
Learning the bible passage from exploring her room and reading through her shit was pretty significant in getting her to not kill herself. And it's a sequence I can fail by virtue of her dying. It's a meaningful choice, and it's a reward for the more observant player while punishing those just trying to coast and ignore everything.
It's not something the game does every time, as I feel the later dialogue puzzles (I guess you can call them that) aren't nearly as interesting, but on a basic level: cool, no harm no foul. You told a story that I got to be an active participant in. All on board with that.
In the case of The Walking Dead, less so. A lot of my choices are a parlor trick, and when the game tries to pretend my choices matter in ep 5 with that little sit down, it just comes off super ridiculous from a writing standpoint because it so clearly just reads like "look at the decisions you made over the course of these 5 episodes,, yep, real choices fam".
It's why my general long ass post, was more about it's fine that these games exist, but like anything else I think the critics in this medium could stand to be more critical of these type of games. Because they should answer questions like "how does the gameplay tell the story?" or "Is the story told effectively through its interactive elements" , because that's where I'm non negotiable. That's the unique thing about this medium, why ever should it be the after thought? Fun isn't the end all be all to this medium, but interactivity is. And any game that makes me feel that I would have been better off watching this, than playing it is a pretty significant short coming to me.
too long; didn't read - You are right in saying all games don't need to be fun, but I do think all games need the interactive aspect to be an important aspect of what makes the game work. If that makes sense.