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[Alexios]

I mean, sure you can't play GTAIII or San Andreas on Dreamcast at their wonderful ~20 fps as on the mighty PlayStation 2 since it was discontinued before AAA development really took off but you can play all these and many more gems so Dreamcast held its own while it lasted and holds up
​

 

[Alexios]

And the real bump reason, Shiren Gaiden is being fan translated. Great RPG-like (rogue-like in this case) games are few and far between on the system despite some of the heavy hitters it got so good to see. Wonder if Capcom's epic 7 part El Dorado Gate saga will ever get the same treatment.


Skim the last video for (Japanese) gameplay, it's pretty traditional as rogue-likes go as the whole Shiren the Wanderer series is but does tend to have more of a story and events in JRPG style (but nowhere near a normal JRPG) unlike most western made games in that genre, if I'm not mistaken here.​

 

[Alexios]

Two 2nd rate nice looking Dreamcast racers are Vanishing Point and 4 Wheel Thunder. Vanishing Point was also on PlayStation, its name comes from its engine tech that the devs boasted has no pop in. The Dreamcast version still looks low poly but is extensively updated with much higher quality textures and other flat 2D assets (ie fences, trees, etc.). The car models also have see through windows with somewhat visible interiors and the framerate is of course doubled (though I seem to remember the game chugs here and there I'm not entirely sure and it's largely fine going by videos like below). It's kind of like the difference between Sega GT on Dreamcast and Sega GT on Xbox (but only visually, the content is the same here). 4 Wheel Thunder was initially not a Thunder game and was retrofit as one. It's not as chaotically fun as Hydro but it has a super nice engine with 60fps, VGA support, nice lighting effects and a great draw distance. Some of the courses are boring but others are really cool looking and they have shortcuts to find and grab all the nitros. It's way better than 4x4 Evo or whatever 4x4 game people like trashing Dreamcast for but it's hard to find good videos.
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[frankefrum]

I’m sure this has been mentioned, but Soul Calibur on Dreamcast made absolutely no sense at the time. The graphics were not just 1 generation ahead of the completion, I’d argue it was 2 generations ahead of the next closest console fighting game.

In a day when arcade fighting games always had some kind of graphical downgrade when they made their way to home consoles, Soul Calibur managed to absolutely demolish its arcade counterpart and literally rewrite the book on graphical expectations for consoles.

 

[Deerock71]

Nah. It's V-RAM

In the

vs. the PS2.

 

[TLZ]

Mmmmmmm....

 

[The Stig]

I remember it blowing me away at the time though I was at the perfect age (15).

The game that really blew me away was soul calibur. Especially the mode where you watch the characters show off their skills. especially amazing was the guy with 2 nunchaku

 

[cireza]

And the real bump reason, Shiren Gaiden is being fan translated. Great RPG-like (rogue-like in this case) games are few and far between on the system despite some of the heavy hitters it got so good to see. Wonder if Capcom's epic 7 part El Dorado Gate saga will ever get the same treatment.


Skim the last video for (Japanese) gameplay, it's pretty traditional as rogue-likes go as the whole Shiren the Wanderer series is but does tend to have more of a story and events in JRPG style (but nowhere near a normal JRPG) unlike most western made games in that genre, if I'm not mistaken here.​

Great news, I love this series. There is a translation of the 4 game (PSP) in the works as well (by the same person it seems), and I am looking forward to it. Going to try the DC demo.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I’m sure this has been mentioned, but Soul Calibur on Dreamcast made absolutely no sense at the time. The graphics were not just 1 generation ahead of the completion, I’d argue it was 2 generations ahead of the next closest console fighting game.

In a day when arcade fighting games always had some kind of graphical downgrade when they made their way to home consoles, Soul Calibur managed to absolutely demolish its arcade counterpart and literally rewrite the book on graphical expectations for consoles.

Yes but Soul Calibur Arcade wasn't exactly impressive. It ran on a modified PS1. The original version wasn't anywhere near Model 3 or Naomi graphics to begin with. TTT got the same treatment on PS2, it was developed within 6 months IIRC and it eclipsed the Arcade version. Both games were kind of enhanced the same (though Tekken Tag might've been enhanced even more, looking at the stages), but SC had more fluid animations and 8 way run also in the arcade so it gave a better impression in motion I think.

 

[Alexios]

D2 also looks pretty good, especially for being relatively early software and the studio's (and faux trilogy's) previous work being so far removed from real time 3D. It's not that far from Code: Veronica although of course has sections far worse and less polished in both visuals and gameplay.
​

 

[Alexios]

Dreamcast art
​

 

[Alexios]

I'm starting to appreciate Maken X more. It's got some real nice 3D models, especially major characters and bosses and while the environments have that Atlus dungeon crawler quality to them, made of assembled blocks and corridors with some puzzles here and there, there are occasionally much nicer vistas with bigger rooms, multiple adjacent or open areas without walls, more elaborate architecture, more organic themes or themes with more clutter objects. It's also a multiple paths/endings game but regardless I feel like it shows Dreamcast could have had a nice Metroid Prime-like game with a similar engine and more effort in the environments, maybe combining some of the techniques used in Phantasy Star Online's areas and how they're also segmented and divided in rooms and corridors yet often more organically. It's ~60fps so they could even drop to 30 for improved visuals...


It's real hard to find good, proper aspect ratio and 60fps footage without commentary or any other flaws though. And boy that English VA sucks. Apparently the game's been censored a lot to change story elements to not have stuff like christianity and the pope etc. as they used to do back then.​

 

[CGNoire]

Dude?.....NFL2k looked like a real Broadcast for a minute if seen from across a room playing on a CRT. Anyone who walked into a Gamestop/Funcoland circa 1999 knows this......so ya you could say it looked powerfull enough.

 

[CGNoire]

This is not the case.... it was not more powerful. The VooDoo 3 was already out half a year before Dreamcast.... Dreamcast
had a GREAT texturing setup though and I would say for the amount of texture memory it had it did incredible.
However... even the Matrox G400 which was the originally intended GPU for the system was more powerful in many aspects.

The reason PC games often did not look as good as what the Dreamcast had was because it was impossible to create a PC game to ONLY run on the
newest, best hardware and sell many copies. You had to have a BASE target system and every thing after that was increases in resolution, texture filtering
etc... You wouldnt create a game that can only run on the best video card on the market. Thats what always made the console keep up with the PC during
the first part of a generation- and stands today as well.

Yep this is why years into the new millenium we still had games on PC with good texture work (abundant memory) but blocky ass characters still when compared to PS2.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

Dude?.....NFL2k looked like a real Broadcast for a minute if seen from across a room playing on a CRT. Anyone who walked into a Gamestop/Funcoland circa 1999 knows this......so ya you could say it looked powerfull enough.

Truth. There was nothing like it at THAT time. I was playing that on 9/9/99.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

It was extremely powerful in 1998/1999. It held its own against the top 3D Arcades at the time. It had 8x the video ram and 8x the system ram compared to the PS1 for example. And could handle around 3 - 6 million polys vs PS1's 90K Textured.

 

[Henry Panic]

It was extremely powerful in 1998/1999. It held its own against the top 3D Arcades at the time. It had 8x the video ram and 8x the system ram compared to the PS1 for example. And could handle around 3 - 6 million polys vs PS1's 90K Textured.

PC was holding against arcades at the time, it means nothing. Arcades were on the way out

It was a powerful console but pretty much any console in development around the same time as the Dreamcast ended up stronger than the arcade. DC going first was in it's benefit because it would have sold worse otherwise.

Yep this is why years into the new millenium we still had games on PC with good texture work (abundant memory) but blocky ass characters still when compared to PS2.

Both of you are speaking myths. PC always has games taking advantage of higher end hardware, just more people had the lower end so you saw those games talked about more.

Now these days that might not be the case, but back then up until 2009 it did. Before 98 it was always better than consoles on either end because consoles just got into 3D.

 

[CGNoire]

PC was holding against arcades at the time, it means nothing. Arcades were on the way out

It was a powerful console but pretty much any console in development around the same time as the Dreamcast ended up stronger than the arcade. DC going first was in it's benefit because it would have sold worse otherwise.



Both of you are speaking myths. PC always has games taking advantage of higher end hardware, just more people had the lower end so you saw those games talked about more.

Now these days that might not be the case, but back then up until 2009 it did. Before 98 it was always better than consoles on either end because consoles just got into 3D.

Max payne 1
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Jedi Outcast
...shit even Unreal 2 The Awakening was some blocky ass shit.

Tons of blocky ass PC exclusives/lead Platform.

 

[Henry Panic]

Max payne 1
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Jedi Outcast
...shit even Unreal 2 The Awakening was some blocky ass shit.

Tons of blocky ass PC exclusives/lead Platform.

You didn't refute or address a single thing I said.

 

[CGNoire]

You didn't refute or address a single thing I said.

I dont think you understood my original point at all. I must admit I dont know what your point was other than the hardware was faster on pc...ok. it sure wasnt being utilized with the end result being blocky ass games for half a decade.

 

[CGNoire]

You didn't refute or address a single thing I said.

If your saying that the hardware being released at that time like geforce 2 and 3 where way faster than thats correct. But outside of tech demos those took forever to bear fruit.

 

[Henry Panic]

I dont think you understood my original point at all. I must admit I dont know what your point was other than the hardware was faster on pc...ok. it sure wasnt being utilized with the end result being blocky ass games for half a decade.

I clearly said your suggestion that there weren't any games made for stronger PCs was wrong. You were saying that PC games in general looked worse because you generalized all PC games for being compatible with the lowest set ups which isn't true.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Launching between PS1 and PS2 was a death sentence.
It was Sony who decided when and how a new console would get started. And I say this as someone who owned the most powerful console of them all: the Xbox.

 

[RAIDEN1]

I only found out few days ago, that there were plans to port the Jurassic Park lost world game to the Dreamcast, but to flesh it more out than what you got in the arcade game! (That pun was intended ) Might have been a great addition to the Dreamcast catalogue

 

[Danknugz]

haven't gone through the whole thread and not sure if someone mentioned, but this was also in the twilight zone time back in the late 90s when consoles were far more of a better gaming experience than PC, people now who try and say console gaming > PC gaming now, would love to be able to go back then because back then it was objectively true.

 

[Danknugz]

This is not the case.... it was not more powerful. The VooDoo 3 was already out half a year before Dreamcast.... Dreamcast
had a GREAT texturing setup though and I would say for the amount of texture memory it had it did incredible.
However... even the Matrox G400 which was the originally intended GPU for the system was more powerful in many aspects.

The reason PC games often did not look as good as what the Dreamcast had was because it was impossible to create a PC game to ONLY run on the
newest, best hardware and sell many copies. You had to have a BASE target system and every thing after that was increases in resolution, texture filtering
etc... You wouldnt create a game that can only run on the best video card on the market. Thats what always made the console keep up with the PC during
the first part of a generation- and stands today as well.

there's no question that PCs always had hardware light years ahead of console, but that was due to non gaming related applications for the most part. the software side of things and abstraction layers in the OS designed for desktop publishing / office work always hindered game development in windows and that didn't change until sometime round windows 7 iirc.

for me it wasn't a huge deal because i mainly played quake2/3 and other non console FPS single player games around that time, but I always loved the ease and convenience of consoles for traditional console games like the mario's/GTA/resident evils , and I definitely felt that way about Dreamcast and that it ran games better than I would expect them to run in win9x at that time.

 

[CGNoire]

You were saying that PC games in general looked worse because you generalized all PC games for being compatible with the lowest set ups which isn't true.

Why where major PC games still blocky so long after Ps2 had alot of high poly characters if there werent aimed to keep lower end pc hardware compatable?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

When I rented it, I played Armada. Awesome game, but cruely hard.

This game would be perfect if made a generation later with twin stick analogs. The game just didnt feel right with one analog stick moving and a face button to fire. I don't think the game had strafe or lock, so it was kind of impossible to move and shoot efficiently when the alien ships could do that.

 

[Alexios]

When I rented it, I played Armada. Awesome game, but cruely hard.

This game would be perfect if made a generation later with twin stick analogs. The game just didnt feel right with one analog stick moving and a face button to fire. I don't think the game had strafe or lock, so it was kind of impossible to move and shoot efficiently when the alien ships could do that.

Pretty sure the later PC Armada Online had the same scheme. It's kinda like asking for Asteroids to be a twin stick shooter. Half the point is its thrust and velocity systems and the other half the rpg type stuff. It's just not what they were going for or they'd have used the single-stick-FPS scheme where you'd move with the face buttons like WASD and aim all around with the analog stick or something, or make every ship's main weapons a turret you can rotate and fix a la Shock Troopers' shooting direction holding or tapping the button independent of the movement or just anything to show they try to decouple thrusting direction from shooting direction in any way, however clunky due to the lack of a second stick, but they didn't even try so that was a design choice just like Asteroids.

 

[Elysion]

The Dreamcast was probably one of the most balanced and efficiently designed consoles of all time, but I would argue it could’ve been significantly more powerful if Sega had wanted it to be. Remember, the DC launched in the US at only $199 (¥29.000 in Japan), while both the PS1 and PS2 launched at $299 (¥39.800 in Japan). That $100 gap could’ve made a huge difference; Sega possibly could’ve included a DVD drive for an extra $100, or a bigger GPU with more RAM, or maybe they could’ve gone much further with the VMU concept and essentially turned the controller into a full-blown handheld device with its own battery, color screen and cartridge slot.

Sega was too conservative with their price target for the DC imo. I guess it was an understandable reaction after the high price and manufacturing costs of the Saturn had wiped out their profits and market share. Unfortunately, they overcorrected too hard in the other direction.

Then again, I‘m not sure if stronger hardware would’ve been enough to weather the hype of the upcoming PS2. What Sega needed was the 3rd party support Sony managed to attract on PS1, and which was carried over into PS2. Sega should’ve done whatever it takes to get EA sports games on DC. They should’ve also tried to make a deal with Square to port their FF games to Dreamcast. Imagine Dreamcast versions of FF7-9! FF8 and 9 could‘ve released day and date with the PS1 versions, since those games came out out after the DC launched. Same with MGS, which could’ve been a DC launch title. Capcom was one of the few 3rd parties who fully supported the DC; they even made exclusive games like RE Code Veronica and Powerstone. The DC needed more of that.

 

[Henry Panic]

Why where major PC games still blocky so long after Ps2 had alot of high poly characters if there werent aimed to keep lower end pc hardware compatable?

You still aren't reading and getting the point. You're asking me a question on something I never spoke of before.

You generalized ALL PC games, all I said was there are PC games that were clearly better looking that did not have the problem.

I take this to be your limited knowledge of PC gaming for the time outside commonly mentioned titles.

 

[Henry Panic]

The Dreamcast was probably one of the most balanced and efficiently designed consoles of all time, but I would argue it could’ve been significantly more powerful if Sega had wanted it to be. Remember, the DC launched in the US at only $199 (¥29.000 in Japan), while both the PS1 and PS2 launched at $299 (¥39.800 in Japan). That $100 gap could’ve made a huge difference; Sega possibly could’ve included a DVD drive for an extra $100, or a bigger GPU with more RAM, or maybe they could’ve gone much further with the VMU concept and essentially turned the controller into a full-blown handheld device with its own battery, color screen and cartridge slot.

Sega was too conservative with their price target for the DC imo. I guess it was an understandable reaction after the high price and manufacturing costs of the Saturn had wiped out their profits and market share. Unfortunately, they overcorrected too hard in the other direction.

Then again, I‘m not sure if stronger hardware would’ve been enough to weather the hype of the upcoming PS2. What Sega needed was the 3rd party support Sony managed to attract on PS1, and which was carried over into PS2. Sega should’ve done whatever it takes to get EA sports games on DC. They should’ve also tried to make a deal with Square to port their FF games to Dreamcast. Imagine Dreamcast versions of FF7-9! FF8 and 9 could‘ve released day and date with the PS1 versions, since those games came out out after the DC launched. Same with MGS, which could’ve been a DC launch title. Capcom was one of the few 3rd parties who fully supported the DC; they even made exclusive games like RE Code Veronica and Powerstone. The DC needed more of that.

This is a bad point.

Sega did $199 for market share and we're losing money on that price hoping to make up for it, but they couldn't because their games were selling poorly.

There wasn't an "extra" $100 Sega could use on the hardware.

Some argue they would have had a stronger console with the 3DFX deal than what they chose, but power wasn't the Dreamcast problem in the marketplace, it was already dead when that became obvious.

The problem was no one wanted Sega's games in the majority of cases. The few exceptions themselves were also limited and died quickly at their peaks on the Dreamcast.

There is wayyyy too much evidence that people didn't want the games at this point to pretend there was more nuance.

 

[nkarafo]

Max payne 1
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Jedi Outcast
...shit even Unreal 2 The Awakening was some blocky ass shit.

Tons of blocky ass PC exclusives/lead Platform.

All i know is that i was playing Quake 3 on my 1999 built PC with a VooDoo 3 card, at 75fps (on a 75hz monitor) at highest settings and 800 x 600 resolution while my friend had to settle with the Dreamcast version at 480p and 30fps.

 

[Team Andromeda]

All i know is that i was playing Quake 3 on my 1999 built PC with a VooDoo 3 card, at 75fps (on a 75hz monitor) at highest settings and 800 x 600 resolution while my friend had to settle with the Dreamcast version at 480p and 30fps.

The typical unfair PC comparison. The GFX card alone most prob cost more than the DC did. I've never seen why people need to compare a console to a PC.

 

[Esppiral]

The Dreamcast is 1997 hardware though...

 

[Deerock71]

All i know is that i was playing Quake 3 on my 1999 built PC with a VooDoo 3 card, at 75fps (on a 75hz monitor) at highest settings and 800 x 600 resolution while my friend had to settle with the Dreamcast version at 480p and 30fps.

PC Master Race just doesn't know when to quit. Bet the VooDoo 3 by itself cost more than the Dreamcast did.

 

[Henry Panic]

The typical unfair PC comparison. The GFX card alone most prob cost more than the DC did. I've never seen why people need to compare a console to a PC.

You could get better graphics on a PC than most DC games with a cheap card after 1999.

 

[nkarafo]

The typical unfair PC comparison. The GFX card alone most prob cost more than the DC did. I've never seen why people need to compare a console to a PC.

PC Master Race just doesn't know when to quit. Bet the VooDoo 3 by itself cost more than the Dreamcast did.

Sure but i was responding to the person who claimed PC users were playing worse looking games.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sure but i was responding to the person who claimed PC users were playing worse looking games.

It depends on the game, doesn't it? I doubt they were many better looking NFL or Vs fighting games on the PC at that stage, but then so many DC games were ported to the PC and looked better has part of SEGA's PC range.

I've never got why people look to compare the both. A console is not a PC and a PC is not a console and I've always seen it has unfair to compare the both, unless one wants to compare a FM Towns Marty I guess.

 

[Henry Panic]

It depends on the game, doesn't it?

The part you missed was that ALL PC games were generalized by the user, he didn't argue depending

 

[nkarafo]

It depends on the game, doesn't it?

Yes.

PCs always had better looking/performing FPS games.

Dreamcast had better looking VS Fighting games.

Speaking of 3D VS games, it also helped that western developers didn't know how to make a proper one back then. What were the best ones made by the west at the time? Mace The Dark Age? MK4? Nothing looked or moved as gracefully as the top Japanese stuff like Soul Calibur or DoA 2.

 

[Team Andromeda]

The part you missed was that ALL PC games were generalized by the user, he didn't argue depending

I didn't miss any part thanks. Like I said it depeneded on the game

 

[Team Andromeda]

Yes.

PCs always had better looking/performing FPS games.

Dreamcast had better looking VS Fighting games.

Speaking of 3D VS games, it also helped that western developers didn't know how to make a proper one back then. What were the best ones made by the west at the time? Mace The Dark Age? MK4? Nothing looked or moved as gracefully as the top Japanese stuff like Soul Calibur or DoA 2.

I agree and that's why I said it depended on the game. I think by the time of the XBox western devlopers had really got up to speed on Vs fighters. In late 1998 or early 1999 not many Japanese or Westeren developers had the skill set to push 3 million or more polygons per sec, which is a often overlooked aspect

 

[The Stig]

this thread has inspired me to hook up my DC to my PC monitor. i also had NO IDEA dynamite cop came out on DC. Im playing it now. i loved that game and die hard arcade.

 

[CGNoire]

All i know is that i was playing Quake 3 on my 1999 built PC with a VooDoo 3 card, at 75fps (on a 75hz monitor) at highest settings and 800 x 600 resolution while my friend had to settle with the Dreamcast version at 480p and 30fps.

No argument from me i agree

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

It was an amazing system and very well engineered. One of the key things I remember about it is that I believe is was the first console to only render what is visible to the viewer, where other consoles were having to rendering everything even if it cannot be seen. It sucks that Dreamcast had such a short life, but I did have a lot of fun playing it and still remember those fun times!

 

[CGNoire]

You still aren't reading and getting the point. You're asking me a question on something I never spoke of before.

You generalized ALL PC games, all I said was there are PC games that were clearly better looking that did not have the problem.

I take this to be your limited knowledge of PC gaming for the time outside commonly mentioned titles.

Ok where talking about stuff.

I see what your saying now.

 

[diffusionx]

It was an amazing system and very well engineered. One of the key things I remember about it is that I believe is was the first console to only render what is visible to the viewer, where other consoles were having to rendering everything even if it cannot be seen. It sucks that Dreamcast had such a short life, but I did have a lot of fun playing it and still remember those fun times!

no, all consoles culled, the PowerVR culled in a different and perhaps more efficient way but drawing only what can be seen was standard to all 3D engines.

 

[Alexios]

I tried recording Aero Dancing i native quality footage, I feel it's a Dreamcast showpiece yet there aren't many quality videos without emulation or other issues, but RetroArch's recording for some reason churns out videos that playback at 2x speed for me so here are some high res screens instead. The game scales up great in high resolution, I like just letting it run the demos which are usually dogfights in random conditions, 1 on 1 or 2 vs 1 or something along those lines, so it's easy to get some really impressive scenes with that but naturally random snapshots don't really do this justice. There are all kinds of effects, weather, contrails etc. and the draw distance seems infinite in less populated maps. Urban areas like in the last screenshot have obvious but understandable pop in for the 3D buildings, otherwise even bases and other assets in other maps are visible from afar.

 

[Alexios]

Some more.