Support NeoGAF

[Alexios]

I mean, sure you can't play GTAIII or San Andreas on Dreamcast at their wonderful ~20 fps as on the mighty PlayStation 2 since it was discontinued before AAA development really took off but you can play all these and many more gems so Dreamcast held its own while it lasted and holds up

I edited the timestamps, Crazy Taxi 2's last missions take you through the whole city (in impressive speeds & 60 fps), Skies of Arcadia's intro at the start is amazing but the timestamp shows one of many cool effects it casually throws, F355's intro is sweet but so is the Long Beach course etc.

I couldn't find a better quality or quicker Le Mans video showing all it has going for it with real time day/night cycles, lighting, flare, glowing, rain, lens, reflection etc. effects in full 24 car races so that comparison with the PC version of that era will have to do since it includes all of that stuff.

PSA: When looking for Dreamcast footage be mindful of the state of the hardware (or emulation quality which I avoid, I'm only not certain about Sakura Taisen 4 above but decent footage of those games is rare). A DOA2 video I've since replaced, either due to a worn drive or because of a modded Dreamcast with the loading issues some drive replacement devices seem to have, often paused the image while taking longer than normal to load the next scene. It both looked wrong and the music got completely desynced so the last intro part was silent, here's Crazy Taxi chugging on a similarly problematic Dreamcast. Many more games look great, the Shenmues, Maken X, Grandia II or Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2 and even some of the better PS1 ports are tranformed on Dreamcast while low budget/effort stuff like the Atomiswave's bootleg Initial D wannabe Faster than Speed look solid too, showing it wasn't so hard to do well on the system (some of the best graphics are in launch window games after all, then again almost its whole life was a launch window being so short) but most companies just didn't care or even have the know how at the time, pioneering times for 3D and all.

Random footage for the hell of it. I wonder how a 3rd game would have looked on Dreamcast, it seems the one engine flaw, that is the draw distance, Genki fixed for Daytona USA 2001 which has no real pop in while still looking great and slick, with detailed daytime backgrounds and 40 rivals too.

Just as the three Aero Dancing/AeroWings games improved over time on DC, a 3rd racer of this sort would have probably blown socks off (and if they brought back the drifting from Drift King '97 on Sega Saturn that would probably have made it one of my favorite racing games ever but oh well).​

 

[Fat Frog]

DOA2 enhancement:

Post in thread '"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers' https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...y-with-interesting-numbers.39321/post-2336338
DOA2 is the limit my ass

 

[Alexios]

Those are pretty sweet animations and character design for that era. They'd have probably sold more people with mermaid asses than with a dolphin too, oh well.

Esppiral's DOA2 mod is cool but aesthetically I'd go with vanilla for most things except some of the smaller improvements with less changes, it's still neat to see it.

 

[Fat Frog]

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

A question that has always been asked by Dreamcast fans is ''Which game is the most shimmering-king on the platform?''

Shimmering is natural in complex games where using mipmapping becomes prohibitive. It's also an artistic choice because mipmapping and filters blur the background, .and consume a lot of memory too.

Half Life on DC uses mipmapping the ps2 version don't, for this and other reasons it is clearer even when operating in interlaced.
Unreal Tournament PS2 uses .

Normally when a game doesn't use it there will be shimmering. Shenmue 1 doesn't use it but its art leaves a pleasant result, different from Shenmue 2, the king of shimmering on the Dreamcast for sure.

 

[Leopold]

It was. Shenmue 2 was such an amazing leap that it marked my gaming life until now. The geometry and textures were way beyond the previous gen.

 

[Fat Frog]

Esppiral
You just added a few vegetation .
Could you make a palm tree Tekken Tag like stage ? Since Tekken Tag's grass is 2D, i guess it won't be difficult for the Dreamcast to run it.

 

[ManaByte]

For me it was the first time I felt like I had an actual arcade machine at home. Super fast and responsive and had some great games on it. Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Powerstone, House of the Dead etc. Wicked console.

People who weren't around for the era don't get this point. In 1999 arcades still existed and the chase for "arcade perfect" is something that dominated ports on the PSX and Saturn, specifically the Capcom fighters. The DF debates ofthe time were Capcom fighter comparisons in GameFan between the PSX and Saturn versions. The Japanese Saturn ended up winning the Capcom fighter wars due to the RAM cart that never made it to the US allowing arcade perfect ports.

Sega's Model 3 was the creme of the crop for arcade machines at the time, so Sega made NAOMI: not quite Model 3 but close and the DC was the home version of that. So yes, the DC was an arcade machine at home. It's just a shame that we never got the Scud Race home port, but that was another dumb decision by Sega. The port began but Sega cancelled it due to shift away from arcade ports.

 

[th4tguy]

DC would be the equivalent of N64 pro, with ability to push higher resolutions and none of the limitations around texture handling/ physical carts. It made the leap to PS2 have less of an impact but at the same time, did not/ could not compete with the power of PS2/Xbox/GC once devs had a good handle on the new hardware.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

A question that has always been asked by Dreamcast fans is ''Which game is the most shimmering-king on the platform?''

Shimmering is natural in complex games where using mipmapping becomes prohibitive. It's also an artistic choice because mipmapping and filters blur the background, .and consume a lot of memory too.

Half Life on DC uses mipmapping the ps2 version don't, for this and other reasons it is clearer even when operating in interlaced.
Unreal Tournament PS2 uses .

Normally when a game doesn't use it there will be shimmering. Shenmue 1 doesn't use it but its art leaves a pleasant result, different from Shenmue 2, the king of shimmering on the Dreamcast for sure.

You sure you're not just confusing shimmering with aliasing? When you say "shimmering" I think of a heat wave effect, and a lot of racing games did it that gen.

People who weren't around for the era don't get this point. In 1999 arcades still existed and the chase for "arcade perfect" is something that dominated ports on the PSX and Saturn, specifically the Capcom fighters. The DF debates ofthe time were Capcom fighter comparisons in GameFan between the PSX and Saturn versions. The Japanese Saturn ended up winning the Capcom fighter wars due to the RAM cart that never made it to the US allowing arcade perfect ports.

Sega's Model 3 was the creme of the crop for arcade machines at the time, so Sega made NAOMI: not quite Model 3 but close and the DC was the home version of that. So yes, the DC was an arcade machine at home. It's just a shame that we never got the Scud Race home port, but that was another dumb decision by Sega. The port began but Sega cancelled it due to shift away from arcade ports.

Which is funny because they still did a home port (remake even) of Daytona USA, an arcade racer. But I can see why they'd choose that, with its brand name, over Scud Race.

Though, Daytona 2 content should've been added to the remake IMHO.

DC would be the equivalent of N64 pro, with ability to push higher resolutions and none of the limitations around texture handling/ physical carts. It made the leap to PS2 have less of an impact but at the same time, did not/ could not compete with the power of PS2/Xbox/GC.

Dreamcast was a lot more capable than the N64; M2 would've been closer to an N64 Pro and part of the reason that system was cancelled was because Dreamcast was right around the corner and overshadowed it completely in performance.

I'd say DC was more competitive with PS2/Xbox/GC than most give it credit for. It's just that the system didn't survive long enough commercially to be tapped to the same extent as those other ones. I think DC could've handled VF4: EVO, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Billy Hatcher, GunValkyrie etc. with just a few changes in areas. Or earlier PS2 3P games like MGS2 and FF X, for that matter, if they had DC versions (again with some changes here and there).

It's late-2003/2004-onward bigger-budget PS2 games that probably would've been problem for Dreamcast matching visually. The GT4s, MGS3s, God of Wars etc. Or RE4 on Gamecube, or Pitch Black & DOA: Ultimate on OG Xbox. Those are the kind of games I think Dreamcast would've struggled to match visually even with top resources & talent on it, but by that point it'd of been around 5/6 years old and that would've been expected.

Plus, the next SEGA console would've launched sometime in 2004 anyway (maybe late 2003 in Japan).

 

[ManaByte]

Which is funny because they still did a home port (remake even) of Daytona USA, an arcade racer. But I can see why they'd choose that, with its brand name, over Scud Race.

Though, Daytona 2 content should've been added to the remake IMHO.

They cancelled both the Scud Race and Daytona 2 home ports due to Sega wanting to move towards console exclusives and away from arcade ports. Scud Race was shown running on the DC so work on the port was done when it was cancelled.

 

[Randall365]

It was a few years too late - PC graphics cards were just taking off. If you were in it for the tech, the Dreamcast wasn’t that impressive - compared to Half Life, X Wing Alliance etc. The gaming library meant that anyone with a PS1 would likely choose to wait for the PS2.

The controller looked like absolute shite too - like a child designing an N64 controller.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Metal Gear Solid 2 says, the Dreamcast wasn't as powerful as some may think (saying that though at the time it would have probably have been the closest a console would have come to bringing the original Daytona as close to perfection as possible...)

 

[Shut0wen]

Very powerful, wasnt really that far off a ps2

 

[TGO]

It's was a Midgen refresh but it was designed to bring arcade quality to your home and it achieved that.
although it did have it's advantages over other consoles that would release later due to some good decisions with ram
Now the PS2 was powerful but it was built during a time when 3D graphics was evolving in leaps and bounds, everyone always states the obvious of the GCN & Xbox being more powerful as if they would be lesser
But Xbox & GCN launched only 1/2 years later and had tech that simply didn't exist when the PS2 was being was being developed
You're looking at 2 consoles that went into development in 1998/99 Vs 1994/95
When you put it onto perspective the PS2 was Monster considering what it could do in comparison.
Development was just too long for it which would be a disadvantage in the end.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

DC would be the equivalent of N64 pro, with ability to push higher resolutions and none of the limitations around texture handling/ physical carts. It made the leap to PS2 have less of an impact but at the same time, did not/ could not compete with the power of PS2/Xbox/GC.

it was a complete generational leap. ''N64 Pro'' is the N64 plus the expansion pack (allowing higher resolution like the pro consoles do).
however later consoles opened up a much wider gap

 

[CuteFaceJay]

The calaber of games that were shipped on that system were impeccable.

I've yet to see a system release with a line up of games that could match the Dreamcast. It was hit after hit after hit.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

For a home console to complete with and stay active as many years as PS1 (yes 1) it was NOT.

its a beautiful console. I make Custom Dreamcast Consoles as a hobby with HDMI mod. maybe I will post my collection some time in future.

Please do.

 

[Team Andromeda]

They cancelled both the Scud Race and Daytona 2 home ports due to Sega wanting to move towards console exclusives and away from arcade ports. Scud Race was shown running on the DC so work on the port was done when it was cancelled.

I don't think that is the reason myself. No doubt car rights was an issue for Scud Racer . I don't think work was ever started on a home DC port of Daytona USA. I think that was more to do with the Arcade game not doing that well in the Arcades

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Another question that fans always ask is ''Could the PS2 run Shenmue 2?''

sigh, the ps2 can replicate and improve the geometry of any game present on the DC.

So yes, a port is totally possible

it can also add lighting effects and buffer effects, which Shenmue does to a very limited extent.

The big question would be IQ and Textures.
If the PS2 version was released before 2002 it would certainly not have progressive scan.

So jaggies would be present, although the DC version has jaggies too.

 

[bumpkin]

The PS2 wasn’t on the market yet so yes, it was powerful at the time. It was leaps beyond the PSOne and N64.

 

[ManaByte]

The big question would be IQ and Textures.
If the PS2 version was released before 2002 it would certainly not have progressive scan.

Q & A With Dead Or Alive 3 Creator, Tomonobu Itagaki - IGN

Most of our IGNXbox readers already know who Tomonobu Itagaki is; as the most outspoken Japanese man in the video game industry next to Hiroshi Yamauchi, Itagaki is not afraid to speak his mind and back up his opinionated views with his high-quality video game products. And as many of you know...

www.ign.com

IGNXBOX: Ever since your statements in our last interview, there have been a few developers talking more about you. There have been some - without mentioning any names - that say they would love to port your game to another next generation console - PS2 or Game Cube - just to prove you wrong that Dead Or Alive 3 can be done faithfully on another console. Have anything to say about that?

TI: First of all I'd like to offer a lucrative position with Team Ninja to developers who make such a claim. I know for a fact that it is impossible to port DOA3's contents to PS2 without degrading the quality drastically. I'll have a better chance of mimicking it on the Gamecube but it will never be as good as the Xbox version. One obvious reason is the lack of hard drive in other systems.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Another question that fans always ask is ''Could the PS2 run Shenmue 2?''

sigh, the ps2 can replicate and improve the geometry of any game present on the DC.

So yes, a port is totally possible

it can also add lighting effects and buffer effects, which Shenmue does to a very limited extent.

The big question would be IQ and Textures.
If the PS2 version was released before 2002 it would certainly not have progressive scan.

So jaggies would be present, although the DC version has jaggies too.

Well, DC seemed to have better color depth to textures and it had better video output to TV than the PS2, so that would've helped a bit in image quality.

But yeah, in areas like geometry, particle effects, lighting...a PS2 version of Shenmue would've been noticeably improved over the Dreamcast one if it wasn't a rush job of a port.

I don't think that is the reason myself. No doubt car rights was an issue for Scud Racer . I don't think work was ever started on a home DC port of Daytona USA. I think that was more to do with the Arcade game not doing that well in the Arcades

I don't think most Model 3 games were that profitable in general, because most operators just stuck with the Model 2. And once the NAOMI was ready, those who would've upgraded to Model 3 setups just skipped it altogether and went to the NAOMI because it was cheaper.

In a lot of ways the NAOMI is to Model 3 what the Wii was to GameCube: a repackaging of prior (more expensive) tech becoming cheaper thanks to Moore's Law and component prices dropping over time. Though NAOMI had more extensive changes to it than the Wii did, in terms of underlying tech & specifications.

It was basically a very different architecture aiming for general throughput performance of the Model 3.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Yes it was. Heck Virtua Tennis looked better than the new Top Spin. And that was a 25 year old game.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Well, DC seemed to have better color depth to textures and it had better video output to TV than the PS2, so that would've helped a bit in image quality.

The differences between Shenmue and a hypothetical Shenmue on PS2 would be analogous to Ecco The Dolphin IMO.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Compared to PS1 Dreamcast was next-gen. I knew PS1 gamers who were mind blown with Soul Calibur graphics. PS2 was a mid-gen console compared to Dreamcast, but not in the first games which were mostly disapointing graphically as PS2 was notoriously hard to code for.

But still Dreamcast big games had better textures! no games had ever Shenmue / Sonic adventure textures quality on PS2. Even Titles like MGS2, ICO or Jak & Daxter had to do tricks with low resolution and repeated textures. You could notice it when you knew what to look for.

 

[Alexios]

The differences between Shenmue and a hypothetical Shenmue on PS2 would be analogous to Ecco The Dolphin IMO.

Not seeing anything DC can't do there. Also must be using bad emulator or settings because there is a water hitting shore effect on DC (it does lod in relatively close) and while there isn't any obvious shimmering texture on the level terrain the lighting itself does shift around as a water caustics effect, though for some reason it's not applied in the very first level compared here (still it's wrong to say there's no effect on the ground for the whole game on DC, Deep Fighter does it similarly too). I bet they could have improved effects on DC with another year or two like they had for the PS2.

Here's emulator captures of my own showing the DC effects (that obviously I didn't mod in, open in new tabs and alternate to see the light shifting around). There's a lot of bad Dreamcast footage out there (when I post videos it's real hardware) both from bad emulation and from bad hardware.

 

[Unknown?]

It was a few years too late - PC graphics cards were just taking off. If you were in it for the tech, the Dreamcast wasn’t that impressive - compared to Half Life, X Wing Alliance etc. The gaming library meant that anyone with a PS1 would likely choose to wait for the PS2.

The controller looked like absolute shite too - like a child designing an N64 controller.

Revisionist nonsense. In 1998 the DC had games that looked better than PC games of that era.

 

[Hudo]

The Dreamcast was stronger than all of GAF combined, at least. Which is, I know, an incredibly low bar. But still...

 

[The Stig]

Power had nothing to do with the Dreamcast's lifespan. They ran out of money, period.

also death by a thousand cuts from piracy

 

[Fafalada]

Shimmering is natural in complex games where using mipmapping becomes prohibitive.

While 'artistic' choice definitely played a part - the 'prohibitive' makes no sense.
'Not' using mipmaps had a steep performance cost on all GPUs of that generation (up to 70%) - so memory saving came with a performance penalty.

Even Titles like MGS2, ICO or Jak & Daxter had to do tricks with low resolution and repeated textures.

I'm not getting into the whole debate as 24 years later, it's still the same circular arguments on all sides - but you picked some of the worst examples of PS2 textures as the 'benchmark'.

 

[Alexios]

'Not' using mipmaps had a steep performance cost on all GPUs of that generation (up to 70%) - so memory saving came with a performance penalty.

I wish the Shenmues used mipmaps, they're such an eyesore because they don't and at such low resolutions at the distances mipmaps come in you don't see any texture detail without them anyway, just a jumbled rough shimmering mess of lines, hard disagree with DF's John here about this matter...

 

[Dane]

also death by a thousand cuts from piracy

IMO piracy while it was a bigger issue than Playstation due to being softmod, it was probably their least issue. they didn't have money to keep the saturn afloat with respirators in the west until fall 99.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

While 'artistic' choice definitely played a part - the 'prohibitive' makes no sense.
'Not' using mipmaps had a steep performance cost on all GPUs of that generation (up to 70%) - so memory saving came with a performance penalty.


I'm not getting into the whole debate as 24 years later, it's still the same circular arguments on all sides - but you picked some of the worst examples of PS2 textures as the 'benchmark'.

You are a professional dev.

I would like to understand why Half Life, Evil Twin , other games on PS2 have superior textures to DC.
This is the configuration of both.

DC 8mb vram, 16mb ram, low cpu, gpu
PS2 4mb vram (I know is a cache) 32mb ram, more cpu, more gpu

Half Life
DC version
GD-rom (1gb) compressed vq textures, mipmaps, x polygons per frame, 640x480i (p when using vga box)

PS2
CD-rom (700mb)
palletized textures (which is the ps2's natural compression) no mipmap, however, textures are higher resolution than those of the DC.
512x448i (p using gsm) more polygons per frame.



notice more polygon per frame and better texture.

Is it possible, using maximum effort and time to replicate Dreamcast textures in real games 1:1 ?

 

[Esppiral]

Of course It was powerful at launch a generational leap, don't get misleaded by the awful psx ports....

 

[NT80]

It's was a Midgen refresh but it was designed to bring arcade quality to your home and it achieved that.
although it did have it's advantages over other consoles that would release later due to some good decisions with ram
Now the PS2 was powerful but it was built during a time when 3D graphics was evolving in leaps and bounds, everyone always states the obvious of the GCN & Xbox being more powerful as if they would be lesser
But Xbox & GCN launched only 1/2 years later and had tech that simply didn't exist when the PS2 was being was being developed
You're looking at 2 consoles that went into development in 1998/99 Vs 1994/95
When you put it onto perspective the PS2 was Monster considering what it could do in comparison.
Development was just too long for it which would be a disadvantage in the end.

Mid gen refresh? I can't understand this. Dreamcast games looked amazing compared to the prior generation and only got better as it went on. A much much bigger upgrade than what I'm seeing with the current gen today relative to it's last gen. The consoles of that generation also came out years apart unlike the the current gen and the last one. GC and Xbox came out 3/4 years after the DC but are part of the same generation.

 

[Fafalada]

Is it possible, using maximum effort and time to replicate Dreamcast textures in real games 1:1 ?

There are many variables (depending on the game) but as a general rule of thumb - for games where levels are discretely loaded - physical memory was the limitation.
DC primarily relied on (portion of)8MB VRam as shuffling textures in/out from main Ram was relatively slow, so it'd only really work if game was already designed around streaming, and PS2 primarily relied on (portion of)32MB of main memory (Again, anything more than that would require streaming of some sort).

If focus is on texture resolution - best case, DC would have a 2:1 advantage in compression - and - somewhere in the realm of 4-5x less available memory to store them in.
If you wanted to go for a closer-match quality AND resolution - the compression delta could go up to 4:1*, but that should still allow matching the two with available memory.
There's no particular reason it couldn't be matched 1:1 (using max effort the textures should really be better on the PS2).
While on topic - mipmaps are something all systems back then benefited from using - so games without them really aren't what I'd consider 'best effort' for either system.

*I'm simplifying a lot here of course.
DCs compression had some limitations on shape/size that meant titles frequently mixed and matched other formats. Likewise on PS2, some types of textures could be compressed better for quality/size (two notable examples are animated textures and skyboxes for instance). There's also how other things were stored in memory (PS2 having hw-geometry compression etc.) so I'd consider that ratio a worst case and it would likely be lower in real world.

 

[Fat Frog]

You sure you're not just confusing shimmering with aliasing? When you say "shimmering" I think of a heat wave effect, and a lot of racing games did it that gen.



Which is funny because they still did a home port (remake even) of Daytona USA, an arcade racer. But I can see why they'd choose that, with its brand name, over Scud Race.

Though, Daytona 2 content should've been added to the remake IMHO.



Dreamcast was a lot more capable than the N64; M2 would've been closer to an N64 Pro and part of the reason that system was cancelled was because Dreamcast was right around the corner and overshadowed it completely in performance.

I'd say DC was more competitive with PS2/Xbox/GC than most give it credit for. It's just that the system didn't survive long enough commercially to be tapped to the same extent as those other ones. I think DC could've handled VF4: EVO, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Billy Hatcher, GunValkyrie etc. with just a few changes in areas. Or earlier PS2 3P games like MGS2 and FF X, for that matter, if they had DC versions (again with some changes here and there).

It's late-2003/2004-onward bigger-budget PS2 games that probably would've been problem for Dreamcast matching visually. The GT4s, MGS3s, God of Wars etc. Or RE4 on Gamecube, or Pitch Black & DOA: Ultimate on OG Xbox. Those are the kind of games I think Dreamcast would've struggled to match visually even with top resources & talent on it, but by that point it'd of been around 5/6 years old and that would've been expected.

Plus, the next SEGA console would've launched sometime in 2004 anyway (maybe late 2003 in Japan).

Yup, a 5 years life cycle would have been enough for the DC anyway. (98-2003)

MGS3 and GOW a problem ?

Not at all and for several reasons:

- They are quite impressive games but monochromic and late (2004-2005 > Dreamcast end cycle would be fine in 2003)

- Price, price, price...
2001 Xbox DOA3 graphics nuked PS2 fighters from A to Z,until the end of time : DOA2 (lol), 2002 Tekken 4, VF4, 2003 VF4 Evo, Soulcalibur 2, 3...

Xbox graphics nuked the PS2 from the start with a $300 launch price (like the PS2).

Graphics didn't save the Xbox.

Ok, some people can find VF4 Evo on PS2 faaar more beautiful than DOA2 on DC (i don't, maybe a bit more impressive but i don't like PS2 IQ).
And what ? That's it ?

People forget a major element in this (unfair) comparison :

Price, price, price !

Dreamcast = $200
PS2 = $300
It's not a Saturn vs Playstation situation, Dreamcast launch price was 30% cheaper than the PS2.

On top of that, Dreamcast price was even cheaper ($150?) when the PS2 arrived...

The PS2 was twice the price...

Is there a fighter on the PS2 that can justify twice the price over DOA2.

I don't think so.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Is there a fighter on the PS2 that can justify twice the price over DOA2.

Let me understand.
for example what separates 5th gen fighting games from 6th gen fighting games? In your opinion describe

What does XB's DOA3 do that DC's DOA2 doesn't in your opinion?
After answering these two, I will ask you the third.

 

[Unknown?]

Yup, a 5 years life cycle would have been enough for the DC anyway. (98-2003)

MGS3 and GOW a problem ?

Not at all and for several reasons:

- They are quite impressive games but monochromic and late (2004-2005 > Dreamcast end cycle would be fine in 2003)

- Price, price, price...
2001 Xbox DOA3 graphics nuked PS2 fighters from A to Z,until the end of time : DOA2 (lol), 2002 Tekken 4, VF4, 2003 VF4 Evo, Soulcalibur 2, 3...

Xbox graphics nuked the PS2 from the start with a $300 launch price (like the PS2).

Graphics didn't save the Xbox.

Ok, some people can find VF4 Evo on PS2 faaar more beautiful than DOA2 on DC (i don't, maybe a bit more impressive but i don't like PS2 IQ).
And what ? That's it ?

People forget a major element in this (unfair) comparison :

Price, price, price !

Dreamcast = $200
PS2 = $300
It's not a Saturn vs Playstation situation, Dreamcast launch price was 30% cheaper than the PS2.

On top of that, Dreamcast price was even cheaper ($150?) when the PS2 arrived...

The PS2 was twice the price...

Is there a fighter on the PS2 that can justify twice the price over DOA2.

I don't think so.

Tekken 5 was to PS2 that Tekken 3 was to PS1. It blew away all the other Tekken games in graphics.

 

[BlackTron]

It was a few years too late - PC graphics cards were just taking off. If you were in it for the tech, the Dreamcast wasn’t that impressive - compared to Half Life, X Wing Alliance etc. The gaming library meant that anyone with a PS1 would likely choose to wait for the PS2.

The controller looked like absolute shite too - like a child designing an N64 controller.

Ehh my family had 3 1999 PCs in it that came with Nvidia Rivas which were used for a variety of contemprary games from Xwing Alliance to the Sims.

Despite this all were simply dumbfounded by DCs graphics. To such an extent I think it's the last time we were shocked at a graphical upgrade. The PC had games that were designed more like PS1/N64 Pro lol. DC is trading blows with PS2

 

[diffusionx]

It was a few years too late - PC graphics cards were just taking off. If you were in it for the tech, the Dreamcast wasn’t that impressive - compared to Half Life, X Wing Alliance etc. The gaming library meant that anyone with a PS1 would likely choose to wait for the PS2.

The controller looked like absolute shite too - like a child designing an N64 controller.

I had a Voodoo 2 SLI setup in 1999 and both the games you mentioned and Soul Calibur was the best looking game on the planet. It just was.

 

[Fat Frog]

Tekken 5 was to PS2 that Tekken 3 was to PS1. It blew away all the other Tekken games in graphics.

I find Tekken 5 pretty cool actually (gameplay and graphics)...

It's just that i don't see late PS2 2005 games like T5 or GOW (as impressive as they are) as as an existantial threat for a 98 console like the Dreamcast:

DC would have been fine with a 98-2003 life cycle, it's also far cheaper than the PS2 (a good argument for millions of gamers...a second life like the madter system in europe?).

Also, i mean... DOA3 nuked PS2 fighters since 2001. In 2005, except the big boys (Sony, Square, Capcom, Konami, Namco)most PS2 game graphics were seen as "so so"(to stay polite) and that was fine because there were huge amount of fun gems...

In 2005, i don't remember a single friend impressed by PS2 graphics (only a few "not bad" but we were annoyed by the alliasing and blurry image), we couldn't wait for next gen trailers.

I was impressed by FFX in 2001 but mostly for aesthetic reasons and then the Xbox happened.(DOA3...4 years later, it was impossible for me to be blown away by Tekken 5, GOW. I witnessed model 3 1996 Scud Race . I'm hard to impress )

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Yup, a 5 years life cycle would have been enough for the DC anyway. (98-2003)

MGS3 and GOW a problem ?

Not at all and for several reasons:

- They are quite impressive games but monochromic and late (2004-2005 > Dreamcast end cycle would be fine in 2003)

- Price, price, price...
2001 Xbox DOA3 graphics nuked PS2 fighters from A to Z,until the end of time : DOA2 (lol), 2002 Tekken 4, VF4, 2003 VF4 Evo, Soulcalibur 2, 3...

Xbox graphics nuked the PS2 from the start with a $300 launch price (like the PS2).

Graphics didn't save the Xbox.

Ok, some people can find VF4 Evo on PS2 faaar more beautiful than DOA2 on DC (i don't, maybe a bit more impressive but i don't like PS2 IQ).
And what ? That's it ?

Technically I'd say Tekken 4 & 5 outdo both Soul Calibur and DOA2 on Dreamcast, but they were both also later releases on PS2. Tekken Tag Tournament might've had more detailed models than Soul Calibur and DOA2 but it lacked real 3D backgrounds as a sacrifice to achieve it.

People forget a major element in this (unfair) comparison :

Price, price, price !

Dreamcast = $200
PS2 = $300
It's not a Saturn vs Playstation situation, Dreamcast launch price was 30% cheaper than the PS2.

True. Tho, PS2 was its cost in large part to the DVD-ROM. If they cut that out they probably could've shaved at least $50 off the launch MSRP. Might've cut it close trying to go $199 though without losing a hefty bit on early PS2 units.

FWIW, apparently SOJ wanted Dreamcast to launch in America @ $249, but Bernie Stolar announced $199 and the reception was so positive that SEGA basically stuck with that in fear of backlash if they went higher. Plus it's not like they had the clout to get away with raising the price after $199 was announced; they just couldn't afford to take a potential PR blunder like that after Saturn and so close to Dreamcast's U.S release.

On top of that, Dreamcast price was even cheaper ($150?) when the PS2 arrived...

The PS2 was twice the price...

Is there a fighter on the PS2 that can justify twice the price over DOA2.

I don't think so.

I dunno man; Tekken 5 was realllly awesome when it came out, especially the PS2 port. I'd say it's easily in the running for Top 3 fighters that whole generation: VF4 EVO and Guilty Gear XX/Accent Core would probably be the other picks, for me. Then maybe Melee and Soul Calibur 2 to round out the Top 5.

 

[ManaByte]

People called the JPN release of TTT “Tekken Jag Tournament” for a reason.

 

[Alexios]

Tekken Tag Tournament might've had more detailed models than [...] DOA2

It didn't though, not at all, DOA2 DC characters beat them all in polycounts and every Tekken after TTT had lower polygon models too (and also less painstacking detailing to stuff like the different specular settings to account for different materials etc.), as did the impressive VF4 ports.

And even so in DOA2 you can get 3 characters on screen in the tag mode, in TTT one first disappears. It did top Sc as it's a really modest Dreamcast game tech wise, it was their first (and last) big DC/next gen game after all and paved the way for TTT in terms of character modeling etc.

Modelers simply got better at utilizing less polygons for better form (and not wasting polygons for unseen things like 3D teeth in TTT). VF3tb DC character polycounts are similar to the PS2's VF4 ports (and eclipse Sc's) yet the game looks far more crude, since it's an older 1996 pioneer.

People called the JPN release of TTT “Tekken Jag Tournament” for a reason.

The western release just traded it for extra blur. People always love major widespread flaws in Sony systems but trash every imperfection elsewhere, from the polygon and texture warping and gaping geometry seams on PS1 to the blurry, aliased, low res & low quality video output of 2.

 

[Fat Frog]

Technically I'd say Tekken 4 & 5 outdo both Soul Calibur and DOA2 on Dreamcast, but they were both also later releases on PS2.

Soulcalibur was impressive at the time but not an example for the age, it was a rushed port (only a few months dev, check the release dates of the arcade original...and the DC release.)

DOA 2 is a better example (1999 Naomi game):
Tekken 4 has lower character polycount than DOA2:

According to Beyond3D, DOA2 characters are almost 3X Soulcalibur...

Tekken 5 is pretty cool as i said but nothing breathtaking. Of course, backgrounds are more detailed than DOA2 since there are multiple layers in DOA2:
Reduce DOA's level size and you'll get more details as well...
Produce a new Dreamcast DOA with 2004 tools and you'll again have graphic improvements. The guy on youtube is already enhancing DOA2 with better textures, higher polycount, new lights, effects, normal mapping and he has a lot of new ideas

I'm not downplaying T5's graphics, i was just seeing great graphics since 1996 Scud Race... So, i found the T5 art pretty cool (waterfalls, Treasure stage and the following T6 on ps3 was pretty lackluster) but nothing mindblowing. It's good but it was...2005.

 

[Thaedolus]

I had a Voodoo 2 SLI setup in 1999 and both the games you mentioned and Soul Calibur was the best looking game on the planet. It just was.

I think there’s some revisionist history going on…I also always had a top end PC my whole life but when the Dreamcast launched, it was a leap. I was excited to show it off because people were slack jawed when they saw it. My friend’s mom thought NFL2K was a live football game at first glance. I loved me some PC gaming, but nothing in 99 touched what Dreamcast was putting out.

 

[Trunx81]

The first screenshots from the DC blew me away when I saw them in a magazine back in the day. Virtua Fighter 3 seemed like HD for me. Played Crazy Taxi to death later when I got the DC.

To answer the question about power: Could Resident Evil 4 be ported?

 

[Fafalada]

The western release just traded it for extra blur.

Technically yes, but that was what every DC game did on SDTV displays too.
Sony's always had a rather - hands-off - approach with these things though instead of automating it through OS/SDKs.
PS2 CRT filters, PS3 scaler, PS4 boost mode, and most recently PS5 LFC.
And really - except for PS3 case - they've always been primarily software problems that they choose to leave up to developers. And while some like the flexibility, it's obvious the more you leave things up to developers, the less consistent results you get.

the blurry, aliased, low res & low quality video output of 2.

I assume you mean 'how things were rendered' by 'video-output'.
Because the actual video out on PS2 was rather great, and it did VGA up to 960P and HD 1080i signals as well.