Support NeoGAF

[dreamcastmaster]

That's not true, lots of guys will take anything and still end up with nothing.

One day they'll hopefully realize that being desperate is not an attractive trait.

 

[Snagret]

I never said that it would. I was making the oh-so-controversial remark that having sex is probably better than not having sex.

And my message is that's an incorrect assumption to make. Sex (the pursuit of it, the physical feeling of it, the emotional feelings surrounding it, the societal expectations for our feelings of it and how much we should/shouldn't be having of it) is a complicated subject. It isn't "just better" and people who have regular, casual sex aren't automatically leading more fulfilling lives than people who do not.

 

[Not]

I'd rather get action and then be denigrated and excluded than not get any action and be denigrated and excluded.

You say that. And I understand that impulse to want to experience something at least once before you can apply rationality to your decisions. Personally, I always need to learn the hard way, that's just how I'm wired.

Think about the long term though with the "being a woman" thought experiment. You've had sex, but now certain people might label you as something negative for the rest of your life. Compare this to being a guy and eventually having sex way later than you wanted to, but no one looks down on you for finally scratching that itch that most humans have.

Typically, nothing in our bodies is more important than reproducing, because that was the common trait in all of our ancestors that got us here. But if you can look beyond that and transcend, being alive and conscious can be so much more rewarding outside of sexual fulfillment. You might even find that sexual fulfillment follows as a byproduct, especially if you're no longer pining for it above all else.

 

[T_V_H]

I'd like to think most white men that feel marginalized don't go alt right. I don't have any hard numbers or anything to back that up though. I think you (hopefully) have outlets of some sort... and honestly, isn't GAF kind of a group?

I'd like to think so too, that being said these individuals often sadly turn to self harm. Be it alcohol, drugs or suicide. I've seen it hapen more than once and I'm sure I'll see it again.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I know this is obvious to most of you, but for the rest of the audience, LionPride's point here isn't just to pile onto the people saying that women have it easy. He's pointing out the hypocrisy in saying "telling men that sex is easy is a problem because it makes them feel inadequate" and then turning around and saying that sex is easy for women.

...Is it actually arguable that it's not easier, though? As one of my friends eloquently put it, "men would fuck a McRib." There are gender roles that hit women harder (slut-shaming, for example), but from a pure supply-versus-demand standpoint, there's always going to be more thirsty dudes than women absent very unbalanced dating pools (e.g., the far more limited options black women have in the dating pool, both because of lingering racist attitudes, and to the fact that a lot of black men are incarcerated.)

Nothing I've said in this thread moves things away from upbringing or other external factors. My only goal is to move the solution end of the discussion as far away from "they just need to get laid" as possible.

The most regressive societies on earth make sure their men get a wife who they can do whatever they want with. The extremist attitudes towards women only get worse in those circumstances.

We have bigger fish to fry than the pure idea that not enough soft white boys are getting laid. There are deeper problems to solve.

Oh, on that score I agree. I mean I get the sentiment of "just get them laid community service", but it's ultimately not anyone's personal obligation to do that, and it's not a long-term structural solution.

I don't think arranged marriage deserves to get thrown in with this discussion, though. There's lots of research that shows that arranged marriage couples aren't fundamentally less happy than chosen ones, e.g. [1][2] Of course, we aren't talking about coercive marriages of child brides, either, but that seems like an argument that doesn't really relate to the issues of angry males in this case.

As for "there are bigger fish to fry", I kind of disagree. This issue is at the intersection of a lot of others, so if its an end goal it stands to improve a lot of related issues we're talking about (lack of education, dealing with social isolation in young people, working to remove outdated gender roles and expectations.) Not to mention I'd very much like more egalitarian and liberal-minded young white guys to replace the old ones.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I'd like to think most white men that feel marginalized don't go alt right. I don't have any hard numbers or anything to back that up though. I think you (hopefully) have outlets of some sort... and honestly, isn't GAF kind of a group?

GAF is a mixed bag. There's a lot of positivity and inclusiveness, but there's also a lot of shaming of socially awkward people, virgin-shaming, and the language of toxic masculinity - pussy, "less of a man", bitch, etc.

This thread over in gaming side is a recent example of how GAF still doesn't hesitate to pick on the weird kid.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

GAF is a mixed bag. There's a lot of positivity and inclusiveness, but there's also a lot of shaming of socially awkward people, virgin-shaming, and the language of toxic masculinity - pussy, "less of a man", bitch, etc.

This thread over in gaming side is a recent example of how GAF still doesn't hesitate to pick on the weird kid.

Yeah, you're right. I just tend to stay on the OT side primarily at this point.

 

[Snagret]

...Is it actually arguable that it's not easier, though? As one of my friends eloquently put it, "men would fuck a McRib." There are gender roles that hit women harder (slut-shaming, for example), but from a pure supply-versus-demand standpoint, there's always going to be more thirsty dudes than women absent very unbalanced dating pools (e.g., the far more limited options black women have in the dating pool, both because of lingering racist attitudes, and to the fact that a lot of black men are incarcerated.)

I think unless we have hard data to support this claim, hinging the assumption that women can have sex more easily than men on anecdotal evidence isn't such a great idea. Especially once you start introducing factors like sexual assault and social stigma of promiscuity. If anything, (anecdotally) women have it much, much harder when it comes to sex because pursuing sex is a much more dangerous venture for women than it is for men. Not even getting into the pressure women face to maintain their physical attractiveness, and the much narrower definition therein of what attractiveness looks like on a woman.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

It's this exact mindset that actually creates the very people this topic is talking about. If it was this easy (and it's obviously not), then there wouldn't be a discussion. You really think every sexually frustrated young male HASN'T tried the above? I'm tired of people who obviously have never had any issues attracting women saying bullshit advice like this. It's only making the problem worse.

There are many factors involved and very rarely when I meet these sexually frustrated men are the above problems ever actually an issue. It's much more complicated than that.

I get this is a touchy subject, and I certainly wasn't trying to diminish anyone's individual struggle, but I just want to state on the record that I am not someone "who obviously [has] never had any issues attracting women." I'm a late bloomer myself. My post was meant to be a hopeful one. Apologies to anyone who felt put down by it; that was not my intention.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

...Is it actually arguable that it's not easier, though? As one of my friends eloquently put it, "men would fuck a McRib." There are gender roles that hit women harder (slut-shaming, for example), but from a pure supply-versus-demand standpoint, there's always going to be more thirsty dudes than women absent very unbalanced dating pools (e.g., the far more limited options black women have in the dating pool, both because of lingering racist attitudes, and to the fact that a lot of black men are incarcerated.)

True or not, it's still indirectly shitting on people who are already looked down on.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

Think about the long term though with the "being a woman" thought experiment. You've had sex, but now certain people might label you as something negative for the rest of your life. Compare this to being a guy and eventually having sex way later than you wanted to, but no one looks down on you for finally scratching that itch that most humans have.

Ah, yes, the countless women who have sex once and then are ridiculed for the rest of their lives for it.

Typically, nothing in our bodies is more important than reproducing, because that was the common trait in all of our ancestors that got us here. But if you can look beyond that and transcend, being alive and conscious can be so much more rewarding outside of sexual fulfillment. You might even find that sexual fulfillment follows as a byproduct, especially if you're no longer pining for it above all else.

I honestly don't even know what to say to this. Being alive/conscious is not a rewarding experience for me. As far as I'm concerned this paragraph has no relevance to my life. On top of that, "transcending" my desires and hoping they just fall into my lap at some point down the line seems remarkably close to how I ended up where I am today.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I think unless we have hard data to support this claim, hinging the assumption that women can have sex more easily than men on anecdotal evidence isn't such a great idea. Especially once you start introducing factors like sexual assault and social stigma of promiscuity. If anything, (anecdotally) women have it much, much harder when it comes to sex because pursuing sex is a much more dangerous venture for women than it is for men. Not even getting into the pressure women face to maintain their physical attractiveness, and the much narrower definition therein of what attractiveness looks like on a woman.

This starts getting into what is "natural" versus what is ingrained cultural factors.

I guess a better way to phrase it is—do you believe if we solved all our lingering issues with sexism (and hey, racism too, since we're wishing on a unicorn) and woke up the next morning: do you think women would engage in sex as often or as much as men?

I agree overall research into "true" numbers and the impact of the factors you mention are pretty thin. I still see the "men have X+N partners in their lifetime, women have X partners" statistics thrown out all the time, even though basic logic tells us those discrepancies make no sense and one or more likely both sexes are lying for any number of factors (shame, bravado, keeping up with the joneses, etc.)

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

I have terrible news for you.

Sex won't change this.

No shit. I never said that it would.

 

[CountAntonius]

I do think it odd that straight white guys get the excuse of a lack of sex, but gay guys who go through far worse aren't blowing the shit out of churches and mosques. Hell, I went through years of agony as a teenager dealing with my sexuality, including the fact I couldn't even tell people or contemplate having sex. Same goes for young black straight men who face exactly the same issues - yet to see them walk into a congregation and start shooting.

They don't have an extremist group targeting them , including them and giving them purpose. The entire point of this conversation isn't that only white straight males feel these feelings but that white straight males are being targeted by these hate groups because they are easy targets do to the emotional distress anyone of any race, gender or orientation can feel.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Pro tip: If you think you understand a woman's experience of anything and you're not a woman, you are wrong.

 

[Not]

I honestly don't even know what to say to this. Being alive/conscious is not a rewarding experience for me. As far as I'm concerned this paragraph has no relevance to my life. On top of that, "transcending" my desires and hoping they just fall into my lap at some point down the line seems remarkably close to how I ended up where I am today.

I guess I'm not addressing the actual problem for you. Don't really know where to go from here. Appreciate the perspective though.

 

[Snagret]

This starts getting into what is "natural" versus what is ingrained cultural factors.

I guess a better way to phrase it is—do you believe if we solved all our lingering issues with sexism (and hey, racism too, since we're wishing on a unicorn) and woke up the next morning: do you think women would engage in sex as often or as much as men?

I agree overall research into "true" numbers and the impact of the factors you mention are pretty thin. I still see the "men have X+N partners in their lifetime, women have X partners" statistics thrown out all the time, even though basic logic tells us those discrepancies make no sense and one or more likely both sexes are lying for any number of factors (shame, bravado, keeping up with the joneses, etc.)

I'm honestly not sure how to answer that, or even take a guess at it. Not because it's an offensive question, mind you, I just don't think I'm qualified to speak for women as a whole that way (beyond what I'm doing right now, which is recognizing the issues women face that many men refuse to acknowledge). I just think sexual assualt is especially overlooked in these statements of women having an easier time than men, given that it's something that informs an enormous amount of the way women think about potential sexual partners, and it's a factor that's literally non-existent for men in the same situation. It's important to recognize that men have collectively taught women to be extremely cautious about who they sleep with, a lesson most men will never need to internalize. Of course, I speak as a man who can only speak on what I've heard women say. I'd prefer it if a women came in and spoke on these issues for herself instead of me speaking for them.

 

[Maledict]

They don't have an extremist group targeting them , including them and giving them purpose. The entire point of this conversation isn't that only white straight males feel these feelings but that white straight males are being targeted by these hate groups because they are easy targets do to the emotional distress anyone of any race, gender or orientation can feel.

Um, that was my point...

There has to be other factors influencing this, because similar groups in equal or worse positions don't react in the same way. Whether it's outside groups exploiting them or societal and cultural issues, there has to be something more.

(I don't agree that external groups are the sole reason though because it has to have started somewhere...)

 

[LionPride]

Yeah, you're right. I just tend to stay on the OT side primarily at this point.

Like OT doesn't have it's share of absurd dumbassery, as this very thread shows?

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

Didn't you say you'd rather get laid and be rejected than not get laid and be rejected? It's on a pedestal over other fulfilling things in life if that's the dichotomy you live with.

Yes. My point was that, if all else was unchanged, I'd probably be happier having sex than not having sex. I don't think it's that outlandish of an opinion to have.

Do you have someone to talk to who isn't as... I'm gonna make an assumption here, as relentlessly negative as the lonely people in those communities you mentioned?

No, and, honestly, I mostly lurk on those aforementioned communities kinda like I do here on Gaf.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Didn't you say you'd rather get laid and be rejected than not get laid and be rejected?

'Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.

Of course he would prefer getting laid than not at all. It's like asking if he'd rather be ill and poor, or ill and rich. Of course he'd pick the latter.

 

[LionPride]

Like, coming from someone who has been deemed attractive by people, but has had trouble in the relationship department until last year, who is in high school...we don't care. People have friends, even the kids who are weird, like you gotta watch out for them because they make bomb threats type of weird, have friends. People here do not give a damn if you smashing or not. No. One.

I've had to explain this to many people, but relationships don't give you validation. Fucking doesn't give you validation, you are not somehow better because you busted a nut. Don't go blaming women and minorities because you don't/can't have sex, it really ain't that goddamn serious. No one will care, now should you probably learn how to have social skills and use them? Yes, definitely. Being around a bunch of angry men upset they can't get laid won't fix that though.

And again, women don't have it easier when it comes to dating. At all.

 

[TestOfTide]

Some of you are focusing on the wrong thing.


The reason that so many young white males end up alt-right isn't simply because of insecurity.

It's because so many see in their cultures that whoever is the biggest bully ends up being successful, so they emulate that into themselves, including into their political views.

You want to see less guys turn into alt-right douchebags? Then you need to see bullying fixed so that less people get the idea that being a bully is how one succeeds in life.

 

[Pizza]

Pretty much. These guys take any slight of rejection very seriously. It starts with them getting gently rejected at the bus stop and ends with a full on violent assault that seems random and uninitiated, but in actually is a result of years and years of studying how to conquer the world through unreliable, uncaring sources and being told, "nah, not really but thanks for playing".

mediocre white men are lashing back and its gonna take the whole neighborhood to stop them. Unfortunately, it starts at home and their fellow white friends aren't doing shit to stop it despite the typical, obvious signs.

A friend of mine fell into this pit and there was just no saving him. Every time we Skyped he'd have some awful shit on his second screen that he'd talk to me about. Like another friend of mine tried to help too, but he'd laugh at the both of us as he spent all his time being supreme on message boards and bringing runescape to play at his community college

Once my other friend started sliding down the slope I tapped out, its abhorrent that the same boiling cesspool that shat out rage comics and mlp culture has now taken a big steamy alt right shit that's gained mainstream support and legitimization. Lots of those boards are just brainwashing echo chambers that have now spilled into the real world.

Like that time I saw "u mad bro" written on a car bumper with stickers, flanked by troll faces. Except worse


Tldr frustrated people with not great social lives flock to burgeoning communities like this and actively emulate the people that are finally talking to them.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Like OT doesn't have it's share of absurd dumbassery, as this very thread shows?

Sure. But it ain't 4chan or the bowels of Reddit.

 

[LionPride]

A friend of mine fell into this pit and there was just no saving him. Every time we Skyped he'd have some awful shit on his second screen that he'd talk to me about. Like another friend of mine tried to help too, but he'd laugh at the both of us as he spent all his time being supreme on message boards and bringing runescape to play at his community college

Once my other friend started sliding down the slope I tapped out, its abhorrent that the same boiling cesspool that shat out rage comics and mlp culture has now taken a big steamy alt right shit that's gained mainstream support and legitimization. Lots of those boards are just brainwashing echo chambers that have now spilled into the real world.

Like that time I saw "u mad bro" written on a car bumper with stickers, flanked by troll faces. Except worse


Tldr frustrated people with not great social lives flock to burgeoning communities like this and actively emulate the people that are finally talking to them.

True, which is why I'm happy when I see people admit that while they were falling down the assclown hole, it was mostly fixed by an outside support system and getting a better social life

It's okay to be socially stunted, not okay to not try and make advancements towards becoming a person who can pick up social cues and shit

 

[Snagret]

No, it isn't, it just reads a bit like the lack of sex is particularly getting under your skin, given the context of this thread.

If you can acknowledge that you'd get something out of being secually active, there are likely other things in life you could extract some joy out of.

Perhaps you don't fall into this category but a lot of redpiller/incel/etc. types seem to have hit a phase of obsession with the fact that they're not having sex, as if it iso the foremost thing on their mind at all times. It's like a death spiral at that point.

Self pity is incredibly unattractive, it's a potent combination of narcissism and cynicsm. It's also almost like a drug, it's cathartic on some level which is addictive. Opening yourself up to self-pity is a slippery slope that's really hard to come back from. My only advice to that Coyote, aside from accepting that not having sex doesn't have to leave some huge, gaping hole in your life, is to stay the fuck away from wallowing in self-pity. It's emotional posion.

That, and he should probably talk to a therapist. It sounds like he's got some serious issues with depression.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Like, coming from someone who has been deemed attractive by people, but has had trouble in the relationship department until last year, who is in high school...we don't care. People have friends, even the kids who are weird, like you gotta watch out for them because they make bomb threats type of weird, have friends. People here do not give a damn if you smashing or not. No. One.

I've had to explain this to many people, but relationships don't give you validation. Fucking doesn't give you validation, you are not somehow better because you busted a nut. Don't go blaming women and minorities because you don't/can't have sex, it really ain't that goddamn serious. No one will care, now should you probably learn how to have social skills and use them? Yes, definitely. Being around a bunch of angry men upset they can't get laid won't fix that though.

And again, women don't have it easier when it comes to dating. At all.

I think you're mistakenly projecting your intelligent, reasonable perspective on the rest of society. Toxic masculinity is a societal problem, and it isn't sustained solely by virgins and loners.

Secondly, it's always been socially acceptable to be a virgin in high school. It's when they hit their 20s that they start being viewed negatively.

 

[LionPride]

Self pity is incredibly unattractive, it's a potent combination of narcissism and cynicsm. It's also almost like a drug, it's cathartic on some level which is addictive. Opening yourself up to self-pity is a slippery slope that's really hard to come back from. My only advice to that Coyote, aside from accepting that not having sex doesn't have to leave some huge, gaping hole in your life, is to stay the fuck away from wallowing in self-pity. It's emotional posion.

That, and he should probably talk to a therapist. It sounds like he's got some serious issues with depression.

Self-pity is so damn harmful. The moment I stopped with all of my self-depricating humor, I became a better guy overall. My confidence shot up, I carried myself differently, just better overall. Now that isn't to say a lot of that didn't have to do with me obsessively exercising to not be chubby and having a style of dress that got out of all/majority black and more into colors, but hey, the way you think about yourself will have an impact on how others see you.

You think you're an unlovable piece of shit? You an unlovable piece of shit.

You think you're a decently attractive guy/gal who just goes through life enjoying it? People will view you positively

Just the way it is

I think you're mistakenly projecting your intelligent, reasonable perspective on the rest of society. Toxic masculinity is a societal problem, and it isn't sustained solely by virgins and loners.

Secondly, it's always been socially acceptable to be a virgin in high school. It's when they hit their 20s that they start being viewed negatively.

Toxic masculinity is a huge problem, a lot of it comes from virgins, loners, and just overall scummy people.

 

[airmangataosenai]

It is utterly terrifying to me how many military aquaintances I used to talk with who once were either moderately liberal or politically neutral are now posting shit from Milo Yiannopolis and the British Info Wars guy. The real turning point on my Facebook feed was Kaepernick, thats when I started noticing a huge shift, especially on people posting Tomi Lahren, the video she did on jhim got over 60 million views and a million shares.

I try to speak up when I see falsehoods posted but a lot of these guys are too far down the rabbit hole to recognize they might be wrong.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Toxic masculinity is a huge problem, a lot of it comes from virgins, loners, and just overall scummy people.

A lot of it does come from virgins and loners, but they're a cog in a bigger machine. Toxic masculinity manifests in fraternities, the army, everywhere.

It's not something that exists solely on the fringes of society.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

The reason these white kids tend to join these groups isn't because they were initially racist or women hating but because these groups gave them something to blame for their frustrations. Much like other radicalized terrorists who had friends of other races only to be manipulated into hating and hurting those they once cared for.

+1.

 

[gfxtwin]

Question for those who think men and/or white and/or straight who feel alienated, socially stunted and depressed (but not so fargone as to be radicalized) need to suck it up: What are your thoughts on the possible roles that dysfunctional and outright abusive childhoods and possible experiences of sexual abuse play in shaping someone into having toxic qualities (and only when that happens - sometimes it doesn't, of course)?

Do you think that can be a reasonable/understandable context causing someone to have those personality traits? Or various other forms of trauma that might not be apparent in a day to day interaction with someone that plays a role in shaping their personality disorders?

What do you do with someone like that, who might seem negative or toxic at times but is wanting/attempting to adopt a more positive/loving attitude and doesn't want to be that way? Are they deserving of empathy or sympathy?

 

[LionPride]

A lot of it does come from virgins and loners, but they're a cog in a bigger machine. Toxic masculinity manifests in fraternities, the army, everywhere.

It's not something that exists solely on the fringes of society.

I guess it's because of my positive experiences with Frats, but at worst I have seen dudes just doing dumbass shit to impress those around them

Not to say that it doesn't exist, just thinkin about it from my perspective. It is everywhere though

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Question for those who think men and/or white and/or straight who feel alienated, socially stunted and depressed (but not so fargone as to be radicalized) need to suck it up: What are your thoughts on the possible roles that dysfunctional and outright abusive childhoods and possible experiences of sexual abuse play in shaping someone into having toxic qualities (and only when that happens - sometimes it doesn't, of course)?

Do you think that can be a reasonable/understandable context causing someone to have those personality traits? Or various other forms of trauma that might not be apparent in a day to day interaction with someone that plays a role in shaping their personality disorders?

What do you do with someone like that, who might seem negative or toxic at times but is wanting/attempting to adopt a more positive/loving attitude and doesn't want to be that way? Are they deserving of empathy or sympathy?

I'm sure the vast majority of people who hold toxic views have understandable reasons for having them. Be it upbringing, culture, trauma, mental illness, what have you. I believe all people are worthy of empathy and understanding--unless they externalize their demons and begin taking them out on other people. Even then, such a person is not beyond redemption.

And, at least for me, any person who seeks to become a better person is worthy of respect, let alone sympathy. I don't care how far you have to go. You're trying. That's all you can do in life.

 

[enoki]

Self pity is incredibly unattractive, it's a potent combination of narcissism and cynicism. It's also almost like a drug, it's cathartic on some level which is addictive. Opening yourself up to self-pity is a slippery slope that's really hard to come back from. My only advice to that Coyote, aside from accepting that not having sex doesn't have to leave some huge, gaping hole in your life, is to stay the fuck away from wallowing in self-pity. It's emotional poison.

That, and he should probably talk to a therapist. It sounds like he's got some serious issues with depression.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Pau]

I've never spoken to a man that thought he was "owed" sex, aside from here on NeoGaf. The issue is that if a man reaches a certain age without having sex, he's openly mocked as a failure or, at the very least, a weirdo. I can't say I've ever heard of women having to deal with that.

Hi, I had to deal with that. So did my sister. My sister tried since she was in middle school to get a boyfriend. Going out, clubbing, even online dating. It wasn't until after college that guys started reciprocating and it wasn't like it was a flood of them either.

I was made fun of in middle and high school by both guys and girls because no one liked me. I asked out guys (who believe me weren't exactly models themselves) and got shot down every time.

The reason you don't think women go through this because ugly girls might as well be invisible as far as straight men are concerned.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

My only advice to that Coyote, aside from accepting that not having sex doesn't have to leave some huge, gaping hole in your life, is to stay the fuck away from wallowing in self-pity. It's emotional posion.

That, and he should probably talk to a therapist. It sounds like he's got some serious issues with depression.

I never said that it did. It may be indicative of the huge, gaping hole in my life, but not the direct cause of it.

The reason you don't think women go through this because ugly girls might as well be invisible as far as straight men are concerned.

Hi, I had to deal with that. So did my sister. My sister tried since she was in middle school to get a boyfriend. Going out, clubbing, even online dating. It wasn't until after college that guys started reciprocating and it wasn't like it was a flood of them either.

I was made fun of in middle and high school by both guys and girls because no one liked me. I asked out guys (who believe me weren't exactly models themselves) and got shot down every time.

Since the poster below me pointed out that I came across as an asshole (or, at least, more of an asshole than I meant to be), I figured I would clear something up. Yes, I was obviously wrong about women not experiencing virgin shaming. My view of these things is admittedly distorted by my habits and (nonexistent) social life. I'm sorry that you had to deal with shitty people in middle/high school. I know better than most people that being shunned and ridiculed by your peers on a daily basis can ruin your life. But, I don't think "ugly" girls are invisible to me, and I chose to take it personally. If you (or anyone else) want to ignore this after my initial response, I understand. But, I just wanted to clarify as best I could.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

Not just a lack of interest in the experiences of women, but flagrant disregard...

Good luck, guy.

I'm not exactly fond of someone who knows nothing about me telling me why I think a certain way, nor do I enjoy the gross generalization about ugly girls being invisible to straight men. That's why I didn't quote her entire post. She clearly has gone through what I was talking about. I could've made that post a bit more clear.

 

[Lowmelody]

The patriarchal history of denying female sexuality lead to centuries of conditioning women to be ashamed of their body and needs while celebrating those of the men. The effect of which leads to the status of men being seen as the chasers and women as the prey and by extension, women as rewards for male prowess. Men seek out and feel inadequate when they cannot 'catch' and this builds into frustration when the predator/prey dynamic leads them to believe that women don't need to do anything except 'be caught'. This seem unfair to them and they lash out. Women on the other hand have to deal with being perused constantly along the risky nature of men that feel entitled to catch them. Women have to merely choose 1 man out of 10 to potentially piss off 9 that proceed to take their anger out on other women. This reduces the amount of women that want to be noticed as available as the risks for just living a healthy life are infinitely higher for women.

So while men feel frustrated that they have to 'work' for sex, women are frustrated because that's always been the primary method of defining and controlling them. Being seen as prey or rewards instead of people.

 

[Derwind]

As far as I can tell, pinning this to sexual frustration is missing the point entirely. You don't spout genocidal manifestos simply because of not getting laid enough.

When you've had so many different forms of validation, from the entertainment you digest to the interactions you have with other people including law enforcement letting you know how special & valued you are, of course it's going to be a shock to the system when you see people other than yourself also seeking that same validation. You're no longer that special snowflake you felt was your birthright and so you have a temper tantrum leading to the deaths of innocent people or Trump.

Petulant fucking children...

 

[Lowmelody]

As far as I can tell, pinning this to sexual frustration is missing the point entirely. You don't spout genocidal manifestos simply because of not getting laid enough.

When you've had so many different forms of validation, from the entertainment you digest to the interactions you have with other people including law enforcement letting you know how special & valued you are, of course it's going to be a shock to the system when you see people other than yourself also seeking that same validation. You're no longer that special snowflake you felt was your birthright and so you have a temper tantrum leading to the deaths of innocent people or Trump.

Petulant fucking children...

Absolutely, sexual frustration is only a part of the puzzle.

 

[Pau]

I never said that it did. It may be indicative of the huge, gaping hole in my life, but not the direct cause of it.

Since the poster below me pointed out that I came across as an asshole (or, at least, more of an asshole than I meant to be), I figured I would clear something up. Yes, I was obviously wrong about women not experiencing virgin shaming. My view of these things is admittedly distorted by my habits and (nonexistent) social life. I'm sorry that you had to deal with shitty people in middle/high school. I know better than most people that being shunned and ridiculed by your peers on a daily basis can ruin your life. But, I don't think "ugly" girls are invisible to me, and I chose to take it personally. If you (or anyone else) want to ignore this after my initial response, I understand. But, I just wanted to clarify as best I could.

They might not be invisible to you, personally, but they are invisible enough that you've never heard about them from the straight men you do interact with or whose posts you read online.

Also lol at "gross generalization". Whenever I hear these types of guys talking about women, they are never referring to the socially awkward, the ugly, etc. They are talking about a specific subset of girls and yes, erase the existence of those that don't fit their narrative of "women can get sex/romance/companionship whenever and wherever they want."

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

I only learned recently that Josh Thomas of TheBitBlock, whom I used to respect, is pretty much exactly what the article's talking about. His Twitter replies is a complete shitshow

No wonder he made his account Private.

 

[neurochasm]

The patriarchal history of denying female sexuality lead to centuries of conditioning women to be ashamed of their body and needs while celebrating those of the men. The effect of which leads to the status of men being seen as the chasers and women as the prey and by extension, women as rewards for male prowess. Men seek out and feel inadequate when they cannot 'catch' and this builds into frustration when the predator/prey dynamic leads them to believe that women don't need to do anything except 'be caught'. This seem unfair to them and they lash out. Women on the other hand have to deal with being perused constantly along the risky nature of men that feel entitled to catch them. Women have to merely choose 1 man out of 10 to potentially piss off 9 that proceed to take their anger out on other women. This reduces the amount of women that want to be noticed as available as the risks for just living a healthy life are infinitely higher for women.

So while men feel frustrated that they have to 'work' for sex, women are frustrated because that's always been the primary method of defining and controlling them. Being seen as prey or rewards instead of people.

And to pile on top of this, years of wage stagnation and growing income disparity has finally started to affect middle class whites. These guys are probably having trouble finding decent paying work or are struggling under the weight of huge student loan debt. Maybe they can't get a loan from their parents to get their own place now when 20-30 years ago they could, because their parents are struggling too. Many of them are probably stuck living with their parents well into their mid 20s and older, which adds to their feelings of inadequacy because traditional gender roles dictate that a man should be an independent provider.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

I only learned recently that Josh Thomas of TheBitBlock, whom I used to respect, is pretty much exactly what the article's talking about. His Twitter replies is a complete shitshow

.

I'm not terribly surprised. He's always been extremely bitter in a "fuck you I'm right." attitude. Maybe not so much on his actual channel, but on comments on other YouTube channels and so forth.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

I'm not terribly surprised. He's always been extremely bitter in a "fuck you I'm right." attitude. Maybe not so much on his actual channel, but on comments on other YouTube channels and so forth.

Yeah that's the weird thing. He seems super personable in his videos but he's anything but outside of that

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

They might not be invisible to you, personally, but they are invisible enough that you've never heard about them from the straight men you do interact with or whose posts you read online.

Also lol at "gross generalization". Whenever I hear these types of guys talking about women, they are never referring to the socially awkward, the ugly, etc. They are talking about a specific subset of girls and yes, erase the existence of those that don't fit their narrative of "women can get sex/romance/companionship whenever and wherever they want."

As I said, I was interpreting your statement as an insult rather than just you stating your experience. But, if I were to say something like "men under 6ft may as well be invisible as far as straight women are concerned", I think I'd probably get called out for making a gross generalization, even if it did line up with my experiences. That was part of the reason I responded as dismissively as I did.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And how in the world are you supposed to value yourself if nobody wants to be around you?

Well, that is on you, isn't it? You can value yourself for many things. For being healthy, doing sports, working on your career, have hobbies you enjoy, etc, etc. If you need confirmation from other people that you are worth something, that is a fundamentally unhealthy thing and it needs to change in order to move forward in life.

They also frequently go to social clubs, like for learning Spanish and stuff, go to night clubs, join organizations in schools, go to parties etc and can't get anything, and they are not shy. They are just very short and ugly, meanwhile my good looking friends and I have no problem with online dating or meeting women through social circles. I used to be ugly so I know both sides, when you're average, ugly, or attractive for you entire life you don't know what's it's like on the other side. No one will convince me that I get women through my personality, hair style, confidence etc. I know how powerful looks can be and witnessed it first hand after I got a rhinoplasty. But just being ugly doesn't mean no women will want you it's more like 1 in 30000 will find you attractive, so it just becomes a numbers game. I argue with my girlfriend all the time about this, she thinks she likes me because of my personality but I tell her that my face is just having a halo effect on her lol.

Wow, you tell your girlfriend she doesn't like you for you, but because of how you look? That does not sound like a good attitude to have.

I'm not saying looks don't matter. I'm saying it is not the only thing that matters, and when you don't have the looks, you need to use your other strengths or work on improvements.

This exactly, having sex with a prostitute will most likely not boost anyones confidence or make a socialy akward and shy man into a pussy pounding playboy they sometimes so desperately want to be.

It might get them over the attitude that sex is the most important thing in life if they have experienced it.

And regarding the whole "owed sex" thing, I have not encountered that but I can't count the times I've encountered a "not-so good looking" male friend of mine turning down a "not-so pretty girl" because they feel they are "owed" a fucking pornstar or a super model. It's sad really.

Yeah, this is what I'm trying to say to Dragonite. Not everyone is created equal sadly, so you need to either compensate with other aspects, or lower your standards a bit.

As far as I can tell, pinning this to sexual frustration is missing the point entirely. You don't spout genocidal manifestos simply because of not getting laid enough.

When you've had so many different forms of validation, from the entertainment you digest to the interactions you have with other people including law enforcement letting you know how special & valued you are, of course it's going to be a shock to the system when you see people other than yourself also seeking that same validation. You're no longer that special snowflake you felt was your birthright and so you have a temper tantrum leading to the deaths of innocent people or Trump.

Petulant fucking children...

It's only a party of the puzzle, but it is part of the reason these guys go to dark places on the internet where they are then basically recruited to hold extreme ideas and unhealthy views of society.

 

[daffy]

No the question is, why do straight white guys get this excuse, but others don't?

Exactly. Why are people avoiding this question? I havent seen many posters address it at length since Iron Man. As much as I thought sexuality was one of the key issues at play, the more i read posts and think about the larger situation at hand, the more i feel like these incidents are a uniquely caucasian phenomenon. I now feel like lack of sex or sexual frustration is actually just a tertiary condition.

I mean as others have said, young black males aren't out committing these heinous acts. Young asian and latino men aren't lashing out in these ways. They're frustrated sure, but not violently or even maliciously so. We have to start addressing the roots of unbounded white supremacy in American culture that have led to these young men feeling that killing marginalized groups, like they did in the olden times, is the solution.

Fringe ideas by groups like red pill and such are culturally dangerous, but that alone isn't what's fosturing these attacks. This is unwatched, uncurated white society feeling forgotten and forging violent bonds with terrorism. We have to do better in acknowledging that. I originally let the OP article dissuade me from considering it too heavily.