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"We still think about KOTOR 3" - Obsidian
- Thread starter Spineker
- Start date
Let's agree to disagree then.
Saying this is completely neglecting the complex relation between Revan and Malak, which is one of the main theme of the story.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Your both completely wrong. Malak, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus are all brilliant villains.
As far as Kotor 1 Vs 2 goes I have always seen them as being just like A New Hope and Empire. The first is a grand adventure and the second is a darker, more personal story. Personally I would give the first a slight edge, what with it being my favourite game of all time.
I never said Kreia and Sion were not good/brilliants/whatever "villains". I actually did say that i love both KOTOR 1 & 2.
I just find Kreia "final goal" dumb and Sion unoriginal.
In fact, the only character that i truely hate in this saga is Griff Vao. He's actually one of the reason we need KOTOR 3:
For killing him.
I just find Kreia "final goal" dumb and Sion unoriginal.
In fact, the only character that i truely hate in this saga is Griff Vao. He's actually one of the reason we need KOTOR 3:
For killing him.
I would prefer this. The original franchise is convoluted and a mess, plus it's part of a dead EU so how would you even market it with the upcoming Ep VII. Start fresh, keep the same gameplay style and all that, but reboot the setting so they can make it inline with the new official canon. There is so much out there that can be done with the SW universe, especially now that the slate has been wiped clean. They could do some really great stuff if they were allowed to. Also maybe this time they could actually go with the primitive style of technology like things were actually supposed to be, like in Tales of the Jedi, and not simply make everything look like a slightly retro version of ANH, despite being 4000 years older.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I never actually used Mission so I probably ended up killing him on Tatooine. Using the mind trick to force Zaalbar to kill her is probably the most evil thing I have ever done in a game.
I'd have to disagree with you there, your confusing expansive with convoluted. Yes there have been 20+ years of comics, books and games etc but the timeline was impeccably maintained throughout. This is what set the Star Wars EU apart from other franchises. Obviously this level of control involved the odd retcon once or twice but I have never had a problem with this.
That picture predates the establishment of Meetra Surik as a female in canon.
Not like it's actually canon anymore anyway, so fuck it. Go crazy.
I assume you haven't seen this image
Kreia is one of the best-written characters in the history of Star Wars and overall Obsidian's efforts in that department were far superior to BW
Okay, I'm gonna stop you right motherfucking there. Can we ever have a comparison between the two games that doesn't shit on BioWare? KOTOR 1 was perfect alongside its story. First of all, Malak isn't a one-dimensional character the reason for his actions are quite clear once you understand his background and the players. Second, as much as I fucking LOVE KOTOR 2, KOTOR 1 has the better story. Why? Because KOTOR 1 is a true Star Wars game. That is why you see Malak as this "Cartoon villain," because he's very reminescent of Vader who is exactly the same way in the Original Trilogy.
The Original Triology is all about the hero's journey, about clashes between good and evil, about fate and destiny and all that good stuff, it is not some complex philosophical exploration about the nature of the force, fate and whether true evil exists. Star Wars is every bit "cliche" albeit in a science fantasy setting, and it works brillantly. KOTOR 1 recaptures this spirit and is more true to the nature of the OT than those crappy SW prequels. KOTOR 2 on the other hand is VERY much different from pretty much anything SW. It's actively makes you question the Force, fate, the Jedi, the Sith, the role of the hero and whether things such as heroes and absoulte evil exist. And while these questions are all interesting, they are not "Star Wars."
I've actually always been surprised that Lucasarts even let Obsidian tell the story they did with KOTOR 2, I even asked Avellone this during that same AMA about whether Lucasarts tried to limit what they tried to do. Surprisingly, he said that Lucasarts was very supportive and never sought to limit the story they were trying to tell.
I was talking about the KotoR franchise, not the entire EU, though the EU is far from perfect. The timeline might be impeccable but there are a lot of other issues. The whole disconnect between Tales of the Jedi and KotoR being one of them and certainly not the worst.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Just like Crytek think about Timesplitters and Rare think about Conker.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Fair enough. Aside from barely mentioning Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma (which had happened only a few decades beforehand IIRC) I didn't notice any massive discrepancies myself. Was there something particularly bad?
I'm guessing he might be talking about the difference in look and technology between the two, KoToR looks much closer to the OT than it does Tales of the Jedi despite being closer in time to Tales.
Tales of the Jedi sets up the universe as being very primitive, with very low tech and overall appearance from the original trilogy. Everything is more organic looking in nature and design. Ships are skeletal and not these smooth perfect metal constructs, clothing is very layered and worn, nothing like Jedi Robes or the kind of modern-ish looking stuff from the OT.
KotoR basically looks like it could be set just before the events of ANH. The technology is practically the same, the locations and styles are super modern. Nothing about it feels like it was set 4000 years before Luke Skywalker and nothing about it feels like it was only a few decades after Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma. And it doesn't help that the games make it seem like those two people were from ancient, almost forgotten times.
Yay, I was right. I can't remember but I believe BioWare commented on why KoTor looked so much different from Tales and I think it had to do with Lucasarts, though I'm not sure.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Don't let Obsidian near it, Bioware all the way.
Grover Cleveland
Member
Never did I once say that I hated KOTOR1 or BioWare. I love both games. I just completed my tenth (11th?) playthrough of KOTOR last month and am working on my eighth playthrough of KOTOR2 right now.
They are unique in their approaches to the material. KOTOR is almost a tribute to the Original Trilogy while KOTOR2 is almost a complete deconstruction of it and its ideals. Very different, but still both great. You are perfectly within your rights to not like KOTOR2's approach because its less "Star Wars". I appreciated that it was a very original take on the material.
That post in particular was dealing just with dialogue writing, where I just feel that Obsidian was stronger overall. Not saying KOTOR doesn't have excellent moments of dialogue, but KOTOR2 is more consistent in that department.
EDIT: And yes, Malak is one-dimensional. If you just want your Sith villain to just be...well an evil, emotionless, remorseless Sith, he follows that template to a T. Not getting much more out of him than that.
partyphone
Banned
so you just want the same damn story barfed up to you over and over again? Or am I reading this wrong? Such a narrow definition of Star Wars is fucking bullshit.
I loved KoTOR 1 (actually got obsessed with SW lore during that time) which I played on 360. With KoTOR 2, I have been struggling to keep on going (yet to escape that space mine in the beginning) primarily due to the lack of controller support. Now, imagine what it would be like if they remastered THOSE gems of games, especially, the second one with "Restored Content" mod for current gen systems.
A third game would definitely be welcome; however, where would they fit it in the timeline?
A third game would definitely be welcome; however, where would they fit it in the timeline?
I do too. Now that canon is destroyed, I'm more hopeful about Kotor 3 being done right if Disney will allow it to be made. Bioware doesn't seem interested in making games for other company's IPs anymore so maybe Obsidian can have another chance at it especially if PoE does well.
I would assume right after Kotor 2
I would assume right after Kotor 2
since that left us with a big cliffhanger.
Last Hearth
Member
If there is a KOTOR 3 I want Obsidian nowhere near it. KOTOR 2 was a complete mess and a thoroughly unpleasant experience.
nihilus is very questionable as a villain and kind of ultimately represents KOTOR 2 to me as a whole
like sion, he serves as a shadow to what the player is. which is very cool. while sion being the 'failed' student of kreia is not even remotely a coincidence thematically and is really obvious in terms of how it applies as 'someone who relies entirely on the force to live rather than someone who willingly cut themselves off from the force to live'
i don't even remember if it's even actually even explained in game, but nihilus is basically another outcome of the same shit that happened on malachor v. he's a dark mirror of the player, someone who during the events of malachor v kept their ties to the force rather than leaving it completely. it leaves him as a void, but he's gotta fill it. with whatever he can. instead of deciding to become a 'regular person' to survive, he becomes a force of nature that preys on others to live- another victim of 'the force' as a whole.
but yeah...
his execution is 'who the hell is this guy what was with all this build up to nothing why isn't he even speaking oh he died'. the concept is sound and you can clearly see it but the execution does not lead to a payoff that is satisfying and apparent to the player. hammering the concept to the head of the player would be unbelievably lame, but the lack of final impression besides disappointment really doesn't leave a great taste in your mouth either.
whether you prefer KOTOR 1/2 is just up to preference. KOTOR 1 is strictly speaking, the more finished and polished product with a much more 'star wars-y' fantasy adventure story.
KOTOR 2 is a personal journey and generally the overall tone of the game relates to the nature and exploration of the player character as a character. but it's also got a giant amount of missing and cut content alongside questionable execution of expressing the thematic concepts that can be tied to the cut corners and missing content. it's also notoriously buggy and probably started the entire obsidian rep as a whole.
there's nothing wrong with liking one and disliking the other, they're pretty expressively different 'stories' and since you're playin' a RPG that is what you're most likely looking at for enjoyment
also, fun trivia for kotor 2 fans:
kreia is the handmaiden's mother. i've seen a lot of people made the guess, but the game leaves enough pieces to put together:
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update 58/
? What are you talking about? I was referring specifically to what KOTOR attempted and succeded in accomplishing. Also, that really isn't a "narrow defintion" that is what SW is straight from the mouth of the Lucas man himself, if you change the formula too much then it would no longer be Star Wars. Case in point, the recent Star Trek movies which are really just SW movies under the label of Star Trek.
My mistake, I've just seen a lot of KOTOR 1 bashing because it's supposedly "cliche BioWare writing" not understanding that, that was the whole point of the game, to be a tribute to the OT. Also, I think I like KOTOR 2 more than KOTOR 1, mostly to do with the inclusion of gameplay elements lie the ability to make party members Jedi and act as their mentor.
EDIT:
HOLY SHIT!
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I remember those designs being in the Golden Age of the Sith etc but not in the Great Sith War as much. Tbh I wasn't a massive fan, I didn't think those organic-style designs made sense in space-faring civilisations, so that's probably why I didn't miss it. As far as I am concerned Bioware's vision made more sense. Tho I know I am probably in the minority here.
Eh, I personally thought the concept of a "force sucking person" and the idea that you can kill the force to be not the most enjoyable plot device. I agree Kreia was a good villian, but in terms of getting a good idea how the force works from KOTOR 2... Well it didnt do a good job, imo. Light side and dark side of the force isnt very relative at all in the Star Wars universe. Dark side powers literally require hate, anger, and fear and wrecks the physical health of the users. The force doesn't actually manipulate anyone, it just gives power to force sensitive people, the "Living Force" is believed to be a part of the entire of the Galaxy.
The plot device of the force working the way it did in KOTOR 2 just didnt jive well, imo, with the rest of the Star Wars lore. That said, I thought KOTOR 2 focused on the force too much, personally, even the original KOTOR focused on the force too much, imo(Even though the 1st was my favorite). SWTOR actually does a better job expanding on the stuff that makes star wars great(Less on the force, more on the setting), imo, and more parts of it felt like the OT more then the prequels. If you wanted a dark story that featured Jedi, KOTOR 2 was pretty great. If you wanted "Star Wars", imo, it didn't deliver near as much, to me, in that department.
I'm going to have to disagree here, specially with your comparison to Sion. Malak actually acted like a Sith with what he did to Revan and His obsession with Reven and didnt actually make him a cartoon villain, it showed how and why he fell to the dark side. Most of his lines were not more cartoonish then Sion's and for the most part were good; In fact that pic you posted actually exemplifies what I'm talking about. That quote from Sion is par for the course for his over the top "I hate my master because she doesn't love me" motif.
Kreia was written as a good villian, in terms of hating her, but in terms of best written over all and in regards to the Star Wars universe? Hell no. I mean, unless you dont care about Star Wars lore. She was a crazy lady who held the crazy view that you could destroy all the force(this being defended by obsidian, but whatever) with very typical dark side/sith views on how the force works. She was written like a lot of other sith in the star wars universe, the only difference with her was she held a particularly abnormal view that everything was the forces fault, and had a plot device that unfortunately gave her the ability to try and "kill" the force. The story would have been better, imo, if the "force wound" wasn't driving the plot.
Wait, is Revan canonically a woman?
When I think Star Wars, I totally think grimdark seriousness.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
No, he is a light-side Male.
The Exile from Kotor 2 is a woman though, her name is Meetra Surik
Alright, thanks, that's what I thought. The gender pronouns in those images were confusing me.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I would play a MLP game if Avellone is writing it.
human onion
Banned
Funny, I just minutes ago beat KOTOR 2, and it is way better than the first. The twist in the first is good, but the second's story keeps you on on your toes throughout. The villains were much scarier this time, with a greater sense of mystery. The companions are amazing, with far better backstory and drama than those in the first game. Shame it is unfinished, but the restored content mod thankfully fixes a lot of that. I felt that almost everyone got great closure, especially Mandalore and Visas. It's a shame that the Old Republic pretty much ruined the chance for a sequel,
The charcters were def better written and given more meat in KOTOR 2(although that is the only thing that was better, imo, outside of combat).
Ya, this is the game I want obsidian to make a sequel from. Leave TOR to bioware, Pillars of Eternity is more at their ballpark, imo.
x Lord Revan x
Neo Member
Personally, I feel that the second game is far stronger than the first and I would revel in an Obsidian made KOTOR III.
I merely wish it could happen...
I merely wish it could happen...
I would love to have Kotor 3 from Obsidian and if that announcement ever came I would probably squeal like a little girl. Of course I also know deep in my heart that it will probably never happen and Obsidian should just create their own scifi universe.
Man this reminds me I am long over do for another play through of Kotor 2. It is my favorite Star Wars story. I like it when someone tries to deconstruct the mythology of a setting and makes you go "Hey that is an interesting way to think about that." Stories that tow the party line by comparison just aren't as interesting to me. That is probably the reason why Deep Space 9 is my favorite Trek series as well.
Man this reminds me I am long over do for another play through of Kotor 2. It is my favorite Star Wars story. I like it when someone tries to deconstruct the mythology of a setting and makes you go "Hey that is an interesting way to think about that." Stories that tow the party line by comparison just aren't as interesting to me. That is probably the reason why Deep Space 9 is my favorite Trek series as well.
Crafting was also better. And the class and powers were expanded. And blasters were made to not be total shit.
No thanks. I would like a good RPG.
TheGravemind
Banned
bioware or obsidian i don't really care,both are awesome, just give me my kotor 3
and while i found the bane trilogy awesome i really did not like the book " revan" wrote by drew.
and while i found the bane trilogy awesome i really did not like the book " revan" wrote by drew.
Ya, the Revan book is a love or hate it seems. I enjoyed it, but I def thought there was too much filler in it. Bane was the better of the 2 for sure though. I thought Hall and Drew did a great job with the Jedi Knight storyline in SWTOR though.
Never was a fan of the KOTOR games as I found the combat to be boring and traversing through the areas to be very slow and tedious. The wookie planet in the KOTOR has to been one of the worst areas I've ever had to travel in. I hated it even more than the Fade from Dragon Age: Origins... KOTOR 2 got too preachy about the force for my liking. I know that Obsidian must always look for work to stay in business, but IMO I would rather they focus on other worlds other than Star Wars. I've never really been a fan of the Star Wars universe (though I love the Jedi Knight games and Republic Commando - so maybe I just don't like RPGs in the Star Wars Universe?) so maybe that gives me a different view on the games and why I didn't like the preachiness of KOTOR 2.
Personally, if they are dead set on creating a game in an established universe, I would love to see if they can do the rumored Alien RPG they were supposedly working on.
Personally, if they are dead set on creating a game in an established universe, I would love to see if they can do the rumored Alien RPG they were supposedly working on.