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Were Framerate issues/FPS/GraphicsVHardware debates discussed in the Atari/NES era?

Glass Joe

Member
I wasn't aware of such talks from the 8 bits era, but for me, the console war dfinitely started with the 16 bits machines.

More than graphics, sound was often very different from one version over the other. I remember debates about which version of Mortal Kombat 2 was the better one between the SNES and the Genesis. Censorship (blood and stuff) was also harsher on Nintendo machines for games like MK2.

You're probably thinking the SNES MK1, which was censored. From MK2 on, SNES had all the blood & guts intact.

I'm not sure if it's really considered "framerate" or just something quite similar to it, but I remember early SNES games having a lot of slowdown like Gradius 3 and Castlevania IV. It wasn't unique to gaming (NES games had tons of it too) but it seemed to be a weapon in Sega's favor when advertising the Genesis and it's speedier CPU chip.
 

nkarafo

Member
You're probably thinking the SNES MK1, which was censored. From MK2 on, SNES had all the blood & guts intact.

I'm not sure if it's really considered "framerate" or just something quite similar to it, but I remember early SNES games having a lot of slowdown like Gradius 3 and Castlevania IV. It wasn't unique to gaming (NES games had tons of it too) but it seemed to be a weapon in Sega's favor when advertising the Genesis and it's speedier CPU chip.
Yes, early SNES games suffered from some slowdowns, especially shoot em ups. The games still run at 60fps, however.
 

robot

Member
Considering my house was always a Nintendo/Sony VS Sega battle, these were the topics of discussion on why the opposing side sucked:

NES/SMS: Flickering
Snes/Genesis: Slowdown
PS1/Saturn: Pop in/draw distance
 

Jabba

Banned
Yes. But it was called jerky and clunky gameplay.

IIRC this is exactly what it was called. We also had graphics debates as a few of us had different machines. I had Coleco and 2 others had 2600 and Intellivision.
The debates were nothing like today though as my friends and I were very uneducated on the technical side of games. Even though today I still am uneducated. The word clunky does ring a bell Pix. It was used to describe most gameplay problems.

We all had debates on graphics etc but I don't remember any real "defending" each systems short comings, it was what it was for each system. As I get older my recollection get's more challenged but that's about how it went in my younger days.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
You're probably thinking the SNES MK1, which was censored. From MK2 on, SNES had all the blood & guts intact.

I'm not sure if it's really considered "framerate" or just something quite similar to it, but I remember early SNES games having a lot of slowdown like Gradius 3 and Castlevania IV. It wasn't unique to gaming (NES games had tons of it too) but it seemed to be a weapon in Sega's favor when advertising the Genesis and it's speedier CPU chip.

Even post mk2, Nintendo was still tough on censorship. The piss fatality in primal rage, for example was completely removed, and numerous religious icons from castlevania dracula x or the final fantasy games.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Posts from 1985 about how Software Piracy harming business is a myth, and someone proposes free-to-play. We like to think we're having new conversations, but we're not.

SOFTWARE PIRACY (Looooooong)
cs25...@unm-cvax.uucp
3/17/85
Dear net.games and net.micro.apple readers:

What follows is a copy of a letter that I sent yesterday to Roe Adams, late
of Softalk, and now National Editor of Electronic Games magazine. It is
in response to an article in the March issue of that magazine. I have posted
it here because I think that it is of general interest to the net, and even
to people in Great Britain. (How about that?) I also posted it here because
I'd like to see a discussion of this topic started here, and I figured that
this would be a great way to start one. Please, if you have flames about
this article, MAIL them to me. Feel free to post useful discussion to
net.micro.apple. I do not believe that net.micro is interested. Please note
that I may quote your personal mail to me in followup postings, but I will
not use your name unless you state that I am allowed to do so in your letter.

And now that that's over, heeeere we go . . .

----------
. . .

As per the request at the end of the article in the March 1985 issue called
"Menace of the Software Pirates," I am sending you this letter to let you know
how I feel about piracy. I never expected the article to come out in favor
of piracy, but I expected it to be accurate, straightforward, and relevant.
Unfortunately, it was none of these things. I have a number of general and
specific complaints about the article, and I will outline them here, presented
with excerpts from the original article for clarity's sake.

> The advent of disk duplicators has created a new category of computer thief,
> the software mugger.

I have never, repeat, NEVER heard this term 'software mugger' used before. Is
it the habit of your magazine to invent silly new buzzwords to make something
old and commonplace sound new and interesting? The pirates I know who do
nothing but copy things using Essential Data Duplicator or Copy ][ Plus are
still called the same thing: pirates. 'Software mugger', indeed! I am proud
to say that I have NEVER mugged a piece of software, or even a human being.

> Ironically, in their lust to obtain the newest software, the vast horde of
> muggers frequently scare software publishers out of the business.

"Frequently"? I have yet to hear of ONE COMPANY that went out of business and
blamed software piracy. Perhaps I missed something . . . but even assuming
that I did, "frequently" brings forth visions of several software publishers
folding monthly, screaming "the pirates did it to us!" to the bitter end.
Has this ever happened? I don't think so.

> The British software industry presents a frightening example. Think for
> a moment about all those fantastic British software programs you've enjoyed
> over the years. What, you say you can't think of any? That's because
> piracy has flourished unchecked in the U.K., and no company wants to spend
> time and money creating an innovative program knowing full well that the
> better it turns out, the greater the likelihood that the vultures will
> rip it off.

Granted, piracy in Great Britain is as big as or bigger than it is over here.
But the conclusion that the lack of British software available over here is
because of piracy is the biggest pile of rubbish I have seen in a great while.
The main "problems" are these:

o The British use a totally different group of machines from we
Americans. The popular machines over there are the TI 99/4A,
the BBC micro, the Oric-1, the Dragon, the Sharp MZ-80A, the ZX-81
(known as the Timex/Sinclair 1000 over here), and the Spectrum (the
short-lived Timex/Sinclair 2061). There is some crossover . . . a
few C-64's and Ataris, and maybe you can find an Apple if you're
lucky, but for the most part, micros that are popular in Britain are
either defunct over here or were never even available in the first
place. Therefore, there's not much of a market over here for already
developed British software. But what about the 64 and the Atari, you
ask? Well, that brings up the other problem . . .

o The British DON'T BUY DISK DRIVES. They consider them a waste of
money, and from what I've seen there, they are quite satisfied with
their cassette tape drives. (That may give them a speed advantage
over the disk-drive equipped American user of the C-64 :)
Games that take advantage of the disk drive (which Americans use
almost exclusively nowadays) are never even developed, so how could
they be sold over here? And it's virtually impossible to sell tape-
based games on this side of the Atlantic in quantities that would
warrant importing from England.

The lack of British software available over here is a nonissue.

> When it doesn't kill off titles altogether, mass piracy at the very least
> tacks dollars onto the price of software as the producers pay off the high
> cost of increasingly sophisticated copy protection.

They are wasting their money. I know almost as many people who refuse to buy
copy-protected software as I know software pirates. Jerry Pournelle, in his
BYTE column "Chaos Manor", has gone over this many times, and in a manner much
more convincing than anything I could say here.

> Penguin Software . . . has attempted to deal with mugging and piracy in a
> different manner. Penguin, in an altruistic bit of company policy, doesn't
> even bother protecting their applications software, including instead an
> extraordinarily fair replacement policy.

I would hardly consider this policy "altruistic". This should be standard
policy for EVERY company. And why, pray tell, are they so generous with
their applications software, while they insist on protecting their entertain-
ment software to the hilt? I have seen just as many pirated copies of "The
Complete Graphics System" as I have seen of "Transylvania". In my opinion,
people who invest in entertainment software have the same right to back-up
their disks as people who invest in applications.

> As a final incentive to stop illegal disk duplication, Penguin has done as
> much as anyone to keep the lid on their software prices.

$35 for a graphic adventure is "keeping a lid on their software prices? Give
me a break!

> Of course, the muggers' use of high prices as a rationale for illegal
> copying is, at best, a red herring.

As a rationale, perhaps I can agree. The only rationale I have ever found
necessary for piracy is the fact that you get free software. That's a pretty
good rationale. But the threat of piracy still doesn't justify the outrageous
pricing policies going on today on ALL kinds of software, be it entertainment
or applications. If Borland International can sell "Turbo Pascal", which is
generally recognized as one of the best Pascal compilers on the market, for
$70, what does that make the company that charges almost as much for a simple
adventure game? Many words come to mind, none of them suitable for a family
magazine.

> Moreover, the mugger is more responsible than the company for the high price
> of software. Not only by stealing programs, but by sharing with friends, the
> retail marketplace is diminished. The fewer paying customers there are, the
> higher prices remain.

That most pirates would have bought the software they pirate in the first place
is a fallacious assumption. Where would pirates with thousands upon thousands
of (retail) dollars worth of software have gotten the money for it? People
who would ordinarily buy software still buy it, those who wouldn't buy software
anyway, pirate it. As I pointed out before, I haven't heard of any software
companies going out of business and blaming the pirates. (And I am of the
opinion that piracy has probably kept several floppy disk manufacturers in the
black!)

> . . . one particular group stands out as being culpable [for high software
> prices]: the producers of disk-duplication software.
> In homes all over America, otherwise-honest adults and adolescents are
> stealing the products of other people's creative labor. They are doing this
> not for kicks or as a statement of dissatisfaction with the state of software
> prices, they are doing it because it's so incredibly easy!

Software pirates rarely use programs like Copy ][ Plus or Locksmith 5.0
anymore -- the programs simply aren't necessary. Thanks to current modem
technology and that small handful of pirates who can remove the copy
protection from virtually any program in a matter of hours, practically any
ware you like is available over the phone lines from any one of literally
hundreds of software-oriented computer bulletin boards across the country.
Once the copy-protection is removed, all you need to copy the disk is the
program COPYA, which comes with every Apple sold. As an example, Activision's
"Ghostbusters" and Penguin's "Sword of Kadash" are considered "old wares" by
most pirates, even though the games aren't even available yet (for the Apple)
in most parts of the country. Most pirates have copies of games before ads for
the games even appear, without ever having to boot a single "dupe disk".

And what about legitimate owners of protected software? Few companies sell
programs with backup copies. Fewer still replace a damaged disk for $5 or
less. Remember, current copyright law allows the legitimate owner to make a
backup copy of the original disk.

> EG'S 4 POINTS . . . how the industry should address the question of piracy
> and mugging. The following are our suggestions:
>
> 1) The computer industry must use all its influence and power in an effort
> to have all copy-duplication software banned. No one has a legitimate
> use for a dupe disk, any more than they do for a machine capable of
> duplicating currency. As long as there are dupe disks, it will be so
> easy to steal software that great numbers of people will be unable to
> resist.

So, making backups isn't a legitimate use for a dupe disk? Tell that to the
manager whose "Accounts Recievable" program disk has just been wiped out by
a stray cup of coffee. Hey, as long as there are cassette decks, it'll be
so easy for folks to tape albums for their friends that great numbers of
people will be unable to resist . . . better ban them, too . . . and as
long as there are cars able to go faster than 55 miles per hours, lots of
folks will be tempted to break the speed limit . . . This suggestion reeks of
Big-Brotherism, and I am totally appalled that you would suggest the banning of
ANY kind of software.

> 2) Newspapers, magazines, or any other medium carrying ads for dupe disks,
> pirated software, or other piratical devices must be boycotted. This
> also applies to bulletin boards and even user groups through which
> pirated software is produced.

In the first place, you've described just about every computer-oriented
magazine on the racks, secondly, virtually nobody is going to boycott a
magazine just because it has ads for Back-It-Up III, and thirdly, just who
do you think are MEMBERS of user groups that distribute pirated software?
Innocent little old ladies from Pasadena?

> 3) The software industry must set standards in the matter of warranties.
> Guidelines must be agreed upon so that defective software can be
> returned in a manner equitable to both the manufacturer and consumer.

Agreed! The days of "The manufacturer of this product doesn't warranty it
to do jack-poo, and accepts no liability in any way, shape, or form for
any damages that result from any use of this product no matter what happens"
have got to end. (This has nothing to do with piracy, though, so what's it
doing here?)

> 4) Finally the computer industry must get it together . . . Piracy is
> a question so crucial to the entire eco-structure of te computer
> universe that it can not be settled by having each company seek out
> a separate peace.

Just what the heck does this paragraph mean? Are you suggesting that
software companies sign treaties with pirates to prevent the pirates from
copying their software? Please clarify . . . I honestly don't have any idea
what you're talking about.

At any rate, this concludes my list of complaints about the article and
opinions on the subject in general. I hope that this letter will be of some
help to you.

----------

.rne.

-----
Real World . . Ernie Longmire / 311 Don St. SE / Los Lunas, NM 87031-9405
UUCP . . . . . {{purdue,cmcl2,ihnp4}!lanl,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
-----
"Actually, God's a very nice person . . . his first name is Bill and
he lives somewhere in Canoga Park . . ." - Johnny Vomit

Re:
Bill Anderson
3/19/85

*** Two Comments on Software Piracy and a Response ***
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Date: 1 Feb 85 08:11:21 GMT

Somebody tell me: Is it that much more expensive to develop a program
as it is to develop (write songs for) an album, hire musicians, cut the thing,
design album jackets, distribute it an what-not? Of course, you don't need
to offer software support for an album, but still. Record albums and
illegal cassette copies, books and copyright-violating xerox copies, even
movies and VCR copies coexist reasonably happily. Whatinthehell is the
matter with software?

Russell Reid
=====================================================
Date: 17 Mar 85 08:33:25 GMT


> Of course, the muggers' use of high prices as a rationale for illegal
> copying is, at best, a red herring.

As a rationale, perhaps I can agree. The only rationale I have ever found
necessary for piracy is the fact that you get free software. That's a pretty
good rationale. But the threat of piracy still doesn't justify the outrageous
pricing policies going on today on ALL kinds of software, be it entertainment
or applications. If Borland International can sell "Turbo Pascal", which is
generally recognized as one of the best Pascal compilers on the market, for
$70, what does that make the company that charges almost as much for a simple
adventure game?

Ernie Longmire / 311 Don St. SE / Los Lunas, NM 87031-9405
UUCP : {{purdue,cmcl2,ihnp4}!lanl,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
=====================================================
1985.3.19

To answer Russell Reid, nothing is the matter with software.
The fact that "record albums and illegal cassette copies ... coexist
reasonably happily" does not change the fact that the copies are
illegal. Copyright violation is stealing. And stealing is not
acceptable! Period. The question is Why is software any different?

To answer Ernie Longmire, the company that charges a high
price for an adventure game is called an entrepreneur. No one is
forcing you to buy it, and if the company cannot make money,
it will go out of business. "Stolen software is free" is not
a rationale for stealing, it is a rationalization for making
stealing a legitimate practice. The question here is What makes
stealing all right? The answer, as above, is nothing.

The increase in stealing of microprocessor software
will probably lead to two unhappy results: more expensive software,
and more difficult procedures for backup and general personal use.
The end result is a more rigid environment all round.

Bill Anderson

...!{ucbvax!allegra | decvax}!rochester!ccivax!band

Re:
Ian Davis
4/3/85
Software Piracy
I read in a current medical journal (my wife is a doctor) that someone
had come up with a clever solution to piracy... They give out software for
free, and urge that it be distributed.. The rider is that the software
contains a header notice inviting all users to contribute to the development
of additional software (if they liked the product) by making a charitable
donation to the developers of the software...
Frankly, I strongly suspect that most receivers of under-the-counter software
would be glad to contribute to the developers but don't have any reasonable
way of doing it. However, most people hate parting with cash too....
Overall, this seems like a risky venture but probably no riskier than any other
distribution method. As said earlier I market bridge and cribbage software
for the P.C. and my advertising is current over $1,000 for 7 small lines in
the blue book of P.C. for 6 issues.. That alone has put me out of business
since sales are at around 100 copies.
If anyone likes the above copy-protection idea send mail to me..
I don't read net.games as much as I should.... all work and no play...
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Post from 1984 asking if the graphics in infocom are worth $50:

Questions for PC users
Leroy P Farquhar
7/17/84
To all IBM pc users/owners This message is for you.
I am looking in to buying some games for my IBM pc and was looking at 3
specifically. they are:
Suspended
Deadline
Flight simulatoer
They are all from Infcom (sp?)
I was wondering if thay are any good in terms of adventure and graphics
I would also like to know if they are worth the 40-50 dollar.
Any information on Zork I Zork II and ZORK III would also be apreciated.
If the reply is big enaugh i will post my findings.

THANKS for any and all replys,
Mat "Computer" Pirz

P.S.!!!!

please reply by ELECTRONIC MAIL.


my addreas is alice!fcp
 

Fredrik

Member
There were definitely hardware discussions but I don't remember talking about the framerates, but I remember going from C64 to Amiga and seeing the amount of animation frames cut in half in certain Epyx games like Summer/Winter Games, looked extremely jerky on Amiga compared to C64, the Amiga port of Last Ninja 2 looked like crap too in motion compared to the C64 original. First time I realized that more impressive graphics/hardware doesn't always mean better looking games.
 

Kagoshima_Luke

Gold Member
Was fps even an issue with 8-bit? I thought that, instead of frame drops, we'd get the dreaded flickering/disappearing enemies, projectiles, stage elements, etc.
 
I certainly don't remember the specific discussions we have now ever being a thing, but the spirit has always been there for sure. I never remember framerate being discussed before 3D graphics showed up.

Was fps even an issue with 8-bit? I thought that, instead of frame drops, we'd get the dreaded flickering/disappearing enemies, projectiles, stage elements, etc.

My understanding of 8 and 16 bit systems (and personal non-technical extensive experience with them) is that they all displayed at the same rate as the CRTs in whatever country they were in.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Was fps even an issue with 8-bit? I thought that, instead of frame drops, we'd get the dreaded flickering/disappearing enemies, projectiles, stage elements, etc.

flicker is an unrelated product, it's caused by too many hardware objects appearing on the same raster line. The reason old games would slow down is that these old machines weren't actually multitasking, everything the game did, it did sequentially and in-order. Typically, all your calculations and input polling and stuff like that occurred during two periods where the machine rested - called VBlank and HBlank.

HBlank occurs when the CRT gun reaches the right edge of the screen and needs to move back to left to draw the next field. This is a short break. VBlank occurs when the gun reaches the bottom of the screen and needs to move back to the top to begin drawing the next field. This is a long break.

Almost everything needed to be done in these blanks, so the game logic was inherently tied to the refresh rate of the screen. Note that refresh rate is not the same thing as framerate. When things would get too hectic, the entire machine would slow down, which affected every bit of the process, including polling. Your framerate was a function of your refresh rate.

Now, you could do things with your display processor to give yourself more room to 'think." A popular trick was to leave a section of the screen actually blank to give yourself full raster lines to "think" with.

The downside of games made like this, that run too slow when hectic stuff goes on? The opposite is true, too. If you speed up the machine, the games will run too fast. Modern games are built entirely differently.
 
Man, Copy][Plus was my first go-to hex editor and *ahem* software enabler for many Apple ][ apps. So many convos about how to work it and when and where to get new profiles for new releases back then. There was definitely a lot of talk of technology, especially as it pertained to copy protection and disk drives and software methods, back then on online conversations. More than display and graphics rendering tech, for sure. Most talk still occurred at computer clubs and meets, IME.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
There were definitely hardware discussions but I don't remember talking about the framerates, but I remember going from C64 to Amiga and seeing the amount of animation frames cut in half in certain Epyx games like Summer/Winter Games, looked extremely jerky on Amiga compared to C64, the Amiga port of Last Ninja 2 looked like crap too in motion compared to the C64 original. First time I realized that more impressive graphics/hardware doesn't always mean better looking games.

That's because the Amiga ports of the Last Ninja games are garbage :p
 
You're probably thinking the SNES MK1, which was censored. From MK2 on, SNES had all the blood & guts intact.

It's funny how months before the release of Mortal Kombat II, Howard Lincoln was making statements to the US senate that they would never allow a violent game like Mortal Kombat to be released as is on their console without touch censorship.He even made comments that Nintendo received thousands and thousands of letters from angry customers, they wouldn't change their stance based on popular demand, even if that meant the Sega Genesis version outselling the version on their console by a wider margin. Howard Lincoln was really playing white knight at the 93' US senate hearings and telling them everything they wanted to hear.

Man did they backtrack very quickly on those statements. They let Acclaim release Mortal Kombat II in 1994 with full blood and gore intact. Though they did force Acclaim to put a 17 and over rating label on the box. Nintendo wasn't part of the Videogame Rating Council that was introduced by Sega in 1993. They did however become a member of the ERSB in 1994, and this is when they started to loosen up on their own strict rating system.
 

Peltz

Member
When you send a 240p signal, it gets split up at the monitor so that only one field is displaying. So, say, the odd field is the image being sent, and the even field is blank. When you send a 480i image, you send sequential fields. So the odd fields on the monitor are sent, and then the even fields are sent in the subsequent update. if you were to film this in slow motion, you'd see half the fields in any given frame update after vblank.

Right, we are on the same page, and that's exactly how I understand it.

So, with that in mind, don't the old consoles (e.g. 16 bit consoels) send 240p signals to SD tvs?
 
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