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What is the competitive value of having execution barriers in fighting games?
- Thread starter ACE 1991
- Start date
Purple Cheeto
Member
I think you're gonna have to go more in to detail here.
SpiceMelange
Member
Satisfaction.
Edit: I think of fighting games as 2 persons having a music jam battle. You have to be good on both execution (learning your instrument) and on the fly composition (tactics, gameplan, strategy). It's very satisfying seeing yourself improve from shit-tier to something competent. Learning execution is fun in the same way learning to play an instrument is fun (imo).
Edit2: I guess I just answered why have execution at all and not the competitive value. I think it adds some friction on "solving" the game (takes longer to get to the point everyone is doing the maximum optimized stuff). Also it adds an element of awe and admiration on pro play (PogChamp-ing at evil ryu loops at Evo stream, or getting pumped up on a crazy dexterous sports play for an analogy) which can give you some competitive motivation. Lastly it makes it easier to separate skill level and thus it's easier to compare yourself to others and see if you're improving at the game (ie: a master rank at starcraft 2 will never ever be beat by a bronze or silver)
Edit: I think of fighting games as 2 persons having a music jam battle. You have to be good on both execution (learning your instrument) and on the fly composition (tactics, gameplan, strategy). It's very satisfying seeing yourself improve from shit-tier to something competent. Learning execution is fun in the same way learning to play an instrument is fun (imo).
Edit2: I guess I just answered why have execution at all and not the competitive value. I think it adds some friction on "solving" the game (takes longer to get to the point everyone is doing the maximum optimized stuff). Also it adds an element of awe and admiration on pro play (PogChamp-ing at evil ryu loops at Evo stream, or getting pumped up on a crazy dexterous sports play for an analogy) which can give you some competitive motivation. Lastly it makes it easier to separate skill level and thus it's easier to compare yourself to others and see if you're improving at the game (ie: a master rank at starcraft 2 will never ever be beat by a bronze or silver)
DryEyeRelief
Member
You have to be more specific
It enables a larger design space of characters, for example characters who are theoretically perfect (they have moves with very good properties all around) but are extremely hard to execute physically, an example would be alpha patroklos in SCV. Execution barriers also allows things like Sonic Boom to exist, if you didn't know Sonic Boom generally has better properties than other fireballs and its because its a charge move that it can just be better because it's harder to do than just a regular quarter-circle motion which obviously can't be replicated to the same effect if moves just come out with a button press.
He's talking about difficult timing, complicated inputs, links, etc.
I think it's important to keep in mind that a lot of the more difficult execution aspects came from the arcade era and the community playing the game in ways the developers didn't anticipate, and then building new games around those concepts.
I think it's important to keep in mind that a lot of the more difficult execution aspects came from the arcade era and the community playing the game in ways the developers didn't anticipate, and then building new games around those concepts.
You can have a pretty complicated fighting game and have pretty simple execution.
There is no real competitive value to having a hard as shit executing game. Some people like it, some people don't. What is obvious though, the harder the fighting game, the less people will play it because the skill ceiling is potentially endless, and very demanding games require constant maintenance. Furthermore, if the online for the game is bad, then practicing combos offline, and trying them online will be a disappointing experience.
Me personally I like a good mixture of hard and easy. Easy to learn hard to master. The sign of a good game, but also, something to work towards.
There is no real competitive value to having a hard as shit executing game. Some people like it, some people don't. What is obvious though, the harder the fighting game, the less people will play it because the skill ceiling is potentially endless, and very demanding games require constant maintenance. Furthermore, if the online for the game is bad, then practicing combos offline, and trying them online will be a disappointing experience.
Me personally I like a good mixture of hard and easy. Easy to learn hard to master. The sign of a good game, but also, something to work towards.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Yeah now it's not that people haven't learned how to do things consistently, it's the games that have "barriers" instead.
smh
smh
To create a separation between easy to master characters (Jacky in VF) that have a level learning curve but limitations in competitive play and Kage Maru who is harder to actually execute moves for but in the right hands is very hard to beat.
So, an idiot like me can figure out a couple reversals, lightning kick and dodges and not feel like an idiot, but still reward full mastry of a game.
You can tell it's been a long time since I was into fighters.
It all goes back to arcade days when you had a vested interest in making people pump quarters into a machine to get good and has just become part of the genre now
So, an idiot like me can figure out a couple reversals, lightning kick and dodges and not feel like an idiot, but still reward full mastry of a game.
You can tell it's been a long time since I was into fighters.
It all goes back to arcade days when you had a vested interest in making people pump quarters into a machine to get good and has just become part of the genre now
It rewards those who put the time in to learn the inner-workings of the game. And this isn't just for longer &/or more damaging combos or links, but also the neutral game (I.E. what you're doing when you're not attacking or blocking). It doesn't allow just anyone to pick up the game & start winning, and encourages people to actually play the game & learn along the way. That being said, as far as casuals are concerned, the game also has to still be fun without reaching that competitive level for people to get into it in the first place. And in certain cases, the competitive scene may increase the execution barrier by discovering exploits that change the metagame. Melee is a prime example of this, namely with the discovery of techniques like wave-dashing & L-Cancelling. Despite Melee's high execution barrier for competitive play, it's still an insanely fun Smash game for casual play. Even Smash 4 is starting to develop techniques that could change the metagame, like the recently-discovered Bidou exploit. However, we don't know if Bidou catch on yet, specifically due to its unorthodox control set-up requirements & the fact that it can't be used as efficiently with the GameCube controller (the controller of choice for competitive Smash). But in the case of Street Fighter III: Third Strike, while the execution barrier is there, it may not be as fun for a casual player to just pick it up & play (then again, I've been playing fighting games since I was 3, so I may have a bias in this regard).
In short, execution barriers give a larger pay-off to those who play the game a lot. But at the same time, games with high execution barriers for competitive play can also be fun without reaching that level of competitive-ness.
In short, execution barriers give a larger pay-off to those who play the game a lot. But at the same time, games with high execution barriers for competitive play can also be fun without reaching that level of competitive-ness.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
SolicitorPirate
Member
Precisely the question games like Rising Thunder, Smash and Pokken are asking.
So ahead of it's time .... it took the execution barrier from more basic combos ='D
Also Power Stone
PreyingShark
Member
*shivers*
No... no.... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! EDIT: Wait is this that bullshit input or just a DP I forgot
'Cuz I'm thinking of like 7895123 which exists in some game I can't remember the name of but do remember that input
Stone Ocean
Member
Risk-reward. That said it only really matters to a point so making execution too hard is meaningless aside from pissing contests.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
There isn't. I think easy execution is a good thing.
This Z motion man. Why do they still use that? Just do a forward>hadouken motion and bam. It makes it look way more confusing than it is.
Stone Ocean
Member
Because it's not a forward>quarter circle motion and doing that way while it works most of the time might lead to unwanted cancels.
A fighting game is pretty much its mechanics or system. If there is no depth, there isn't much of a game left. One big aspect of a fighting game is in its execution and providing a high enough ceiling can allow players one way to explore and improve/differentiate their self from another player especially when they are both using the same character(s). No execution and the game turns into something like a strategy turn based game or something.
Unnecessarily complicated can be too much though. I like a balance of easy to get into, hard to master.
Unnecessarily complicated can be too much though. I like a balance of easy to get into, hard to master.
Really? I've never had that problem.
Neoleo2143
Member
Sometimes difficulty can connect us better to our character that we control. Excecution barrier can also mean investment and that can include emotional investment as well, leading to satisfaction when a certain level is reached.
I don't mind easier to control games though, those games can appeal to those who dislike the curve but still want the satisfaction of controlling a character.
I don't mind easier to control games though, those games can appeal to those who dislike the curve but still want the satisfaction of controlling a character.
Stone Ocean
Member
Depends on the game and how sensitive said game's shortcuts are, if any.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
There are different kinds of execution barriers. The Sonic Boom example is interesting, because charge moves like that create game balance due to resource limitation - a motion activated move can be done at any time from nearly any position. But a move that requires a character to say, charge back, hold it, then press forward, places a new tactical layer on top of the related attack in order to balance out its strengths.
Then there are other execution barriers, which come close to complexity for its own sake, to create arbitrary manual dexterity checks that players must pass to compete at higher levels. One example might be the increasingly complicated input motions some SNK fighters began to suffer from in the late 90s for things like super moves and even some regular attacks.
I think there's still a place for command motions in some kinds of fighting games. It's not just about player satisfaction, but there are play mechanics that require them - for example Rising Thunder tried to replicate the resource management of stuff like charge moves, using cooldown meters. Personally, I found I didn't like that. In a real-time fighting game, cooldown meters felt unnatural and distracting, and actually more complex to manage than simply being physically required to maintain a back or down position for a set time to prepare a move, then launch it. That's intuitive.
Killer Instinct has recently intrigued me because of its unique balance of accessibility and skill barriers. The idea that combos, outside KI's manuals, require little skill check but instead high level play relies on knowledge gained from experience. Yet it's still a game using motion commands - just not overly complex ones.
Then there are other execution barriers, which come close to complexity for its own sake, to create arbitrary manual dexterity checks that players must pass to compete at higher levels. One example might be the increasingly complicated input motions some SNK fighters began to suffer from in the late 90s for things like super moves and even some regular attacks.
I think there's still a place for command motions in some kinds of fighting games. It's not just about player satisfaction, but there are play mechanics that require them - for example Rising Thunder tried to replicate the resource management of stuff like charge moves, using cooldown meters. Personally, I found I didn't like that. In a real-time fighting game, cooldown meters felt unnatural and distracting, and actually more complex to manage than simply being physically required to maintain a back or down position for a set time to prepare a move, then launch it. That's intuitive.
Killer Instinct has recently intrigued me because of its unique balance of accessibility and skill barriers. The idea that combos, outside KI's manuals, require little skill check but instead high level play relies on knowledge gained from experience. Yet it's still a game using motion commands - just not overly complex ones.
Yeah I guess that is true. I've played a lot of different games and it always works pretty consistently for me.
You would have to be more specific. Fighting games all have their own idiosyncrasies and systems and those idiosyncrasies vary in terms of their difficulty and also makes the genre more varied.
If you're just asking why we still have motion inputs, it's because it gives characters more moves than a stick/controller otherwise has available.
If you're just asking why we still have motion inputs, it's because it gives characters more moves than a stick/controller otherwise has available.
SixMachine
Member
The requirements to execute moves plays a huge part within character design and how the designers want you to approach situation as the character. How hard or what you are able to do allows people to explore their options within whatever limitations they have.
For example the execution between a motion character (Ryu for example) and a charge character (like Guile) is vastly different, and makes for a different match flow and gameplay design. Ryu can do something like dash up and go into a hadouken, but Guile due to the nature of his inputs can't do something like dash up sonic boom (except if there were game engine specific things like charge partition but that's another beast entirely). So you have to wonder, how can someone like Guile maintain fireball pressure while moving forward? He has a normal called the knee bazooka that moves him forward while he can do something like hold back charge, which allows him to advance if he wants while maintaining fireball charge. This makes the approach much different because using the dash compared to a command normal has different risk, such as if someone neutral jumps Guile's knee bazooka will be very dangerous, compared to someone jumping on Ryu's dash who isn't as committed to a move. But the knee bazooka has a hitbox and can hit opponents moving forward. The properties of specials are also balanced around the difficulty, such as Guile having faster startup and recovery on Sonic Booms compared to other projectiles but since he has to commit to a charge he still won't be broken. Funny thing on the DS version of SF4 they allowed touch screen special moves and Guile was absolutely broken because he can perform all his special moves without the prerequisite charge, making him absolutely dominate everyone and convert into damage that would be impossible in the normal versions of the game like while moving forward.
Zangief's super is also designed with the 720 degree motion in mind. If you were to attempt this raw the normal person will get a jump while doing the motion of the super, unless you were really godlike and fast enough to get it done within the few pre-jump frames. So due to this limitation/barrier, many people "hide" the input of the super while doing other things. For example the Zangief player may initiate a dash, and since he cannot jump during it, he inputs the motion so he can attempt the grab at the end of it, or they might whiff normals and feint the opponent, taking them by surprise when the super comes out to catch them.
This is a huge point. Things like hitconfirming (optimizing each hit you successfully land into a practical combo or situation) is a large part of the game, and having varying levels of execution makes you weigh which one to use in your mind. It also has you take in account what state you are in to know how you can convert within your current situation. Even pro players drop things, and a single drop can cost you the match and lots of momentum. If you only can land something 50%, it might be better to go for the safer and less rewarding 100% option so you don't throw away what you got and are able to capitalize something even for a small gain.
For example the execution between a motion character (Ryu for example) and a charge character (like Guile) is vastly different, and makes for a different match flow and gameplay design. Ryu can do something like dash up and go into a hadouken, but Guile due to the nature of his inputs can't do something like dash up sonic boom (except if there were game engine specific things like charge partition but that's another beast entirely). So you have to wonder, how can someone like Guile maintain fireball pressure while moving forward? He has a normal called the knee bazooka that moves him forward while he can do something like hold back charge, which allows him to advance if he wants while maintaining fireball charge. This makes the approach much different because using the dash compared to a command normal has different risk, such as if someone neutral jumps Guile's knee bazooka will be very dangerous, compared to someone jumping on Ryu's dash who isn't as committed to a move. But the knee bazooka has a hitbox and can hit opponents moving forward. The properties of specials are also balanced around the difficulty, such as Guile having faster startup and recovery on Sonic Booms compared to other projectiles but since he has to commit to a charge he still won't be broken. Funny thing on the DS version of SF4 they allowed touch screen special moves and Guile was absolutely broken because he can perform all his special moves without the prerequisite charge, making him absolutely dominate everyone and convert into damage that would be impossible in the normal versions of the game like while moving forward.
Zangief's super is also designed with the 720 degree motion in mind. If you were to attempt this raw the normal person will get a jump while doing the motion of the super, unless you were really godlike and fast enough to get it done within the few pre-jump frames. So due to this limitation/barrier, many people "hide" the input of the super while doing other things. For example the Zangief player may initiate a dash, and since he cannot jump during it, he inputs the motion so he can attempt the grab at the end of it, or they might whiff normals and feint the opponent, taking them by surprise when the super comes out to catch them.
This is a huge point. Things like hitconfirming (optimizing each hit you successfully land into a practical combo or situation) is a large part of the game, and having varying levels of execution makes you weigh which one to use in your mind. It also has you take in account what state you are in to know how you can convert within your current situation. Even pro players drop things, and a single drop can cost you the match and lots of momentum. If you only can land something 50%, it might be better to go for the safer and less rewarding 100% option so you don't throw away what you got and are able to capitalize something even for a small gain.
Not sure I get your question.
Surely the same as the competitive value of having to learn to skate properly to play hockey, or to throw a football accurately to play football, or to have a good forehanf and backhand in tennis... You see where what I mean.
There has to be a minimum skill level to achieve through practice before one can begin to compete in any sort of game. Some games are harder than others, yeah, but they have their target audience (Guilty Gear for example). Street Fighter 5 is actually a step in the right direction, the combos are very easy to anyone who has the discipline to put in a few hours of practice. It can take you less than a week to master your OPTIMAL combos, the same combos used by the pros in tournaments (as opposed to Street Fighter 4 for instance, which required ridiculous execution and timing to be competent).
Surely the same as the competitive value of having to learn to skate properly to play hockey, or to throw a football accurately to play football, or to have a good forehanf and backhand in tennis... You see where what I mean.
There has to be a minimum skill level to achieve through practice before one can begin to compete in any sort of game. Some games are harder than others, yeah, but they have their target audience (Guilty Gear for example). Street Fighter 5 is actually a step in the right direction, the combos are very easy to anyone who has the discipline to put in a few hours of practice. It can take you less than a week to master your OPTIMAL combos, the same combos used by the pros in tournaments (as opposed to Street Fighter 4 for instance, which required ridiculous execution and timing to be competent).
SpiceMelange
Member
Go has zero execution barrier/skill and is pretty much unsolvable with our current algorithms. As much as I like execution skills, it's not and does not bring depth to a game.
It's good that I didn't compare it to go, then. Things are just more exciting when it's possible to mess up.
SixMachine
Member
I think his comparison to tic-tac-toe is off (since it is a solved game and there is no mind game to it) but risk reward is a huge part of the decision making process, which for a human player means that the most optimal move will not always be the one they should go for due to the skill level of their execution and awareness of the situation.
If the optimal move was something like visually hitconfirming something like a kick on the last active frame on counter hit at a specific distance, so you can link something after with a normal which is otherwise unsafe on block, that may be an extremely risky thing to attempt. If the situation to do such a thing occurred within neutral, where the 2 players are constantly moving and doing things, it will be extremely hard to visual confirm you have the opportune moment to land it, and if you were to "just do it", in all the situations you don't get the proper confirm, you have put yourself in a losing situation. So the best action might be to go for something safe and won't give up your position for a lesser reward.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Here's my argument.
Sleep Fighter V.
We've literally been seeing the same dry ass combos for 6 months. If the game had actual hard to do high execution combos and a flexible combo system you'd be seeing fresh stuff all the time. Look at Marvel. That game is 5 years old and you still see new sick combos all the time. Keeps the game entertaining.
Sleep Fighter V.
We've literally been seeing the same dry ass combos for 6 months. If the game had actual hard to do high execution combos and a flexible combo system you'd be seeing fresh stuff all the time. Look at Marvel. That game is 5 years old and you still see new sick combos all the time. Keeps the game entertaining.
shadowstew
Member
There's little or no value really. It's just a matter of taste, and having the right inputs to compliment gameplay design.
On the opposite spectrum, never go full 3DS Guile.
On the opposite spectrum, never go full 3DS Guile.
People really need to read this post, and/or this James Chen essay that discusses the issue.
People dropping by with responses like "elitism" are either shitposting or painfully underinformed.
SpiceMelange
Member
I don't know about now, but back in the day in the day at the arcade pulling off hard moves used to be the coolest thing. Everyone used to ask you how you did that move.
These days nothing's a shocker though we still have those wow moments at tournaments for hard to excecute techniques.
These days nothing's a shocker though we still have those wow moments at tournaments for hard to excecute techniques.
ClayKavalier
Banned
I don't play many fighting games, but I like that links in Street Fighter reward staying calm and focused. If you panic or get frustrated it can be harder to execute them than if you're able to stay collected. Always feels great losing half or more of your half but keeping your composure and making a comeback. Or landing a few hits and watching your opponent get desperate and reverting to obvious tactics.
Granted I think SFV really nails this, all the one-frame links in IV made that game really frustrating because I loved playing it but didn't have the will to spend hours in training committing stuff to muscle memory.
Also there's games like Marvel vs Capcom where the execution does seem kind of lame. Memorizing the timing of 20-move combos isn't fun, and performing the same long string of inputs every time you land a hit gets old fast. Much prefer Street Fighter where new players can just use throws or heavy normals to punish until they can learn some short combos to up their damage.
Didn't a lot of cabinets have a display with all of the inputs?
Granted I think SFV really nails this, all the one-frame links in IV made that game really frustrating because I loved playing it but didn't have the will to spend hours in training committing stuff to muscle memory.
Also there's games like Marvel vs Capcom where the execution does seem kind of lame. Memorizing the timing of 20-move combos isn't fun, and performing the same long string of inputs every time you land a hit gets old fast. Much prefer Street Fighter where new players can just use throws or heavy normals to punish until they can learn some short combos to up their damage.
Didn't a lot of cabinets have a display with all of the inputs?
Just a bit of exaggeration on my part. I don't mean to imply that fighting games are solvable to the extent that tic-tac-toe is and every match would end in a stalemate if execution requirements were removed. I just think fighting games would become a little more rigid if players could simply choose the best option in any given situation without fear of botched execution.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The execution requirements are part of what makes a fighting game closer to a physical sport than Go. Which might not matter much, in the grand scheme of things, but it brings another dimension of skill to the game.
Of course, you could go too far and have a game that's so execution heavy that players are practically playing by themselves rather than against the opponent. Something like Marvel is pretty execution heavy compared to something like KI.
ClayKavalier
Banned
What about mastering placing the stones fancily with your fingers to intimidate your opponent?
Code:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/U0hSXc9.jpg[/img]Teknopathetic
Member
"Go has zero execution barrier/skill and is pretty much unsolvable with our current algorithms. As much as I like execution skills, it's not and does not bring depth to a game."
Go is not a real-time game. Completely pointless to compare them directly.
Go is not a real-time game. Completely pointless to compare them directly.