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Where do you stand in the new culture wars?

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Eric P

Member
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2701379.ece

Interesting perspective which will hopefully be insightful to some.

Where do you stand in the new culture wars?
As the rise of Islamism challenges the old assumptions of left and right, new cultural fault lines are emerging. Take our quiz to see which side you are on

A glorious culture clash took place in Iran recently that made me laugh out loud. The children of Che Guevara, the revolutionary pin-up, had been invited to Tehran University to commemorate the 40th anniversary of their father’s death and celebrate the growing solidarity between “the left and revolutionary Islam” at a conference partly paid for by Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president.

There were fraternal greetings and smiles all round as America’s “earth-devouring ambitions” were denounced. But then one of the speakers, Hajj Saeed Qassemi, the co-ordinator of the Association of Volunteers for Suicide-Martyrdom (who presumably remains selflessly alive for the cause), revealed that Che was a “truly religious man who believed in God and hated communism and the Soviet Union”.

Che’s daughter Aleida wondered if something might have been lost in translation. “My father never mentioned God,” she said, to the consternation of the audience. “He never met God.” During the commotion, Aleida and her brother were led swiftly out of the hall and escorted back to their hotel. “By the end of the day, the two Guevaras had become non-persons. The state-controlled media suddenly forgot their existence,” the Iranian writer Amir Taheri noted.

After their departure, Qassemi went on to claim that Fidel Castro, the “supreme guide” of Guevara, was also a man of God. “The Soviet Union is gone,” he affirmed. “The leadership of the downtrodden has passed to our Islamic republic. Those who wish to destroy America must understand the reality and not be clever with words.”

Don’t say you haven’t been warned, comrade, when you flirt with “revolutionary Islam” as if it were a mild form of liberation theology. But it is time, too, for Che to lose his secular halo. If he were still living, the chances are he would be another dictator like Castro, who has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for half a century but gets a pass from liberals because he provides a modest health service.

There used to be a clear dividing line between conservatives and liberals. It defined the culture wars of the late 20th century, which pitted reactionary fuddy-duddies against tolerant, enlightened types, who believed in equal rights for women, minorities and gays. That fault line is becoming as dated as the flower power of the 1960s.

By the time Terry Eagleton, a Marxist professor of literature – how quaint and old-fashioned that sounds – is laying into Martin Amis, the Mr Cool of British fiction, for remarks on Islam that supposedly make the son as racist as his father, Kingsley, “an antisemitic boor, a drink-sodden, self-hating reviler of women, gays and liberals”, it is obvious we are into a wholly different culture war, between phoney and real progressives.

Wasn’t one of Amis fils’s main complaints about Islamic militants that they were “antisemites, psychotic misogynists and homophobes”? Confused? You are not the only one.

My own test for spotting a phoney liberal is as follows. If you think Bush is a fascist and Castro is a progressive, you are not a democrat. If you think cultural traditions can trump women’s rights, you are not a feminist. And if you think antisemitic rants are simply an expression of frustration with American and Israeli policy, you have learnt nothing from history.

It is no longer possible to tell at a glance which side people are on. My husband, a photographer, has long hair and wears T-shirts and cargo pants. We live in stuffy Washington, where almost everybody wears a suit and tie but secretly longs to be artistic and hip. On the school run, nice lawyers confide to him that they hate George Bush, despise the Iraq war and are not as reactionary as they look. They are completely thrown if he tells them he dislikes Islamo-fascism more than Bush, is glad to see the back of Saddam Hussein, supports Nato against the Taliban and thinks the Iranian mullahs should never be trusted with a nuclear bomb. He considers himself an antifascist who believes in the secular values of the Enlightenment and human rights. There is nothing radical about being tolerant of the intolerant, he says.

On the other side of the looking glass, jeans-clad leftists are horrified that one of their own could possibly have anything in common with the dreaded neocons. Christopher Hitchens is a rock star among atheists, most of whom oppose the Iraq war. Last weekend, he travelled to Wisconsin to receive an award from the Freedom from Religion conference for his book God Is Not Great.

“In my acceptance speech I upbraided the audience by saying I could easily have got the impression that they thought the only threat to our society came from the Christian Coalition and possibly the odd Israeli settler,” he says. “You would not have known from anything on sale, any T-shirt, any peaked cap, any book or pamphlet, that there was such a thing as Islamic fundamentalism.”

They didn’t like it. “I got the usual lame and bleating replies that, to the extent that if there was such a thing, it’s been created by us,” Hitchens says. One of the most indulgent forms of western narcissism is that everything is “all about me” – or, in this case, the West. Myopic liberals find it impossible to believe that radical Islam may have a dynamic of its own that threatens their values. “You cannot stand for multiculturalism if you represent a group that wants to kill all the Jews and Hindus. Shouldn’t that be obvious?” Hitchens asks. “Martin [Amis] was saying, ‘Look, there’s a real problem here’, and good for him.

“The name of the problem is religion, and there is only one religion that threatens us with this kind of thing . . . There is a reason people look askance at a mosque in their neighbourhood, and they are not mad or cruel or stupid or selfish or bigoted to worry about it.”

Nick Cohen, whose book What’s Left? has just been published in paperback, identifies progressives as antitotalitarian internationalists who subscribe to “some kind of universal values”, as he puts it.

“The left are like old-style Tory imperialists, who believe rights are all very well for western Europe but not for Johnny Foreigner, and that the liberation of women is essentially for white-skinned women, not brown-skinned women,” Cohen says.

A case in point is the treatment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somalia-born author of Infidel, who has received an astounding lack of support from liberals and the left. An article in Newsweek described her as a “bomb-thrower”, when it is Hirsi Ali who faces death threats from real bomb-throwers merely for speaking her mind and has had to rush back to the Netherlands because its government will no longer pay for her bodyguards while she is abroad.

Natasha Walter, reviewing her book in The Guardian, wrote blithely: “What sticks in the throats of many of her readers is not her feminism, but her antiIslamism” - as if the two could be separated. It was Hirsi Ali’s culture that led her to be genitally mutilated as a girl, and it was her Muslim former co-religionists who murdered her friend Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film-maker. Why should she remain quiet?

Irshad Manji, the Canadian Muslim feminist, is about to become director of the new Moral Courage Project at New York University. “It’s about developing leaders who speak truth to power within their own community,” she says. “Ultimately it is about defeating self-censorship.

“Human beings are born equal but cultures are not,” she believes. “They are human-made and for the most part man-made. There is nothing sacred about cultures and nothing blasphemous about reforming them.”

When Amis said something a little more forceful along those lines at the Cheltenham literary festival, he set off a new firestorm. “Some societies are just more evolved than others,” he said. Then last week on Channel 4 News, he said: “I feel morally superior to Islamists.”

Note that he is not saying he feels morally superior to Islam - but to Islamists. Is it wrong to make such a judgment, when there is nothing immutable about culture and society?

Manji says: “I absolutely defend his right to believe that certain civilisations are superior to others,” but adds the important rider: “In contemporary times he may be right, but in the past Islam gave birth to the Renaissance.”

To my mind, Manji is a “moderate” Muslim, in that she still describes herself as a person of faith, but to many of her Islamic brethren, she is off the scale. Liberals have been too quick to accept as moderates Muslims who are nothing of the kind – except in comparison with the suicide bombers and theologians of Al-Qaeda.

“It’s not a waste of time to search for the moderate Muslim, because there is a civil war within Islam between people who do and don’t want to live under sharia,” says Hitchens, “but there are a lot of counterfeits who are being seized on in our cultural cringe moment.”

The chief cringers, he might have added, are the phoney liberals. The new culture war looks set to run and run.
 
Man...I'm never one to bash something for being long, but I will always carry the expectation of at least a little courtesy bolding.
 

Eric P

Member
Ned Flanders said:
Man...I'm never one to bash something for being long, but I will always carry the expectation of at least a little courtesy bolding.

bolding distracts from the article as a whole and points the discussion into a predetermined direction on the part of the OP, which often times belies and agenda, especially in the case of political and cultural threads.

I'd rather the articles I post be read in their entirety for purposes of an organic discussion.
 
Eric P said:
bolding distracts from the article as a whole and points the discussion into a predetermined direction on the part of the OP, which often times belies and agenda, especially in the case of political and cultural threads.

I'd rather the articles I post be read in their entirety for purposes of an organic discussion.


The article itself has an agenda...highlighting the topic sentences for several of the main paragraphs doesn't serve to diminish the content of the article. People seem to think that reading a large article online is equivalent to reading from a newspaper/periodical, and its not. There are a lot of factors that make reading from a computer more difficult (scrolling, display quality, font sizes, etc) and bolding a long article can assist a reader in overcoming these off-putting quirks.

I think you're also mistaken in assuming that because an article is bolded in sections, that people subsequently don't read the entirety of the article. Thats not necessarily the case, nor is it a guarantee that if it isn't bolded, that they will read the whole article. So we've got some logical falacies here, but hey..its not like I can make you bold it. I would be willing to bet that you'd stimulate a lot more feedback if you did, which of course is the goal of any discussion.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Totally agree with this article, I never got the whole "cultural relativism" some of the more off-the-rocker liberals spew, having basic human rights for the whole world should be what a true liberal stands for.
 

Eric P

Member
Ned Flanders said:
The article itself has an agenda...highlighting the topic sentences for several of the main paragraphs doesn't serve to diminish the content of the article. People seem to think that reading a large article online is equivalent to reading from a newspaper/periodical, and its not. There are a lot of factors that make reading from a computer more difficult (scrolling, display quality, font sizes, etc) and bolding a long article can assist a reader in overcoming these off-putting quirks.

I think you're also mistaken in assuming that because an article is bolded in sections, that people subsequently don't read the entirety of the article. Thats not necessarily the case, nor is it a guarantee that if it isn't bolded, that they will read the whole article. So we've got some logical falacies here, but hey..its not like I can make you bold it. I would be willing to bet that you'd stimulate a lot more feedback if you did, which of course is the goal of any discussion.

i would like the things i post to stand on their own without further manipulation on my end and so that's how i will post them.
 
I agree with it in principle...being "tolerant of intolerance" is bullshit. Bill Maher has been beating this drum for ages and I couldn't agree more. I just don't know if I agree with the framing of "phony liberals" as culprits.
 
Bold PLZ!

Eric P said:
bolding distracts from the article as a whole and points the discussion into a predetermined direction on the part of the OP, which often times belies and agenda, especially in the case of political and cultural threads.

Dude, that's hardly a sentence!
 
I Read it. It seems to be a defense piece for Hitchens brand of leftism post September 11.


My personal take has always been that you espouse the classic liberal values but resist the temptation to spread them through force while also recognizing that other cultures may take much longer to arrive at those positions. I have no problem supporting Hitchens and others when they criticize the cultural elements of Islamic cultures. (Along with criticizing our inconsistent foreign policy concerning these nations. ala Saudi Arabia )It seems you might be considered a "phony" liberal in this piece however if you don't support an actual war with Islamic nations on top of the cultural one.
 
So... the enemy of my enemy is not so unlike my enemy?

The problem the American left has right now how to be opposed to Islamic fascists and still be against a stupid war. In our sound-bite culture, voters see things in very simplistic terms-- the same terms that led so many to believe that Iraq was responsible (somehow) for 9/11.

I don't think religion is the whole problem, as progressive Islamists exist-- it's with theocracies, built on the extreme side of the religion.
 

Chipopo

Banned
Yes, the post-modern is on the way out, good and evil are back on the rise. If handled in moderation, this can be a good thing.

My personal take has always been that you espouse the classic liberal values but resist the temptation to spread them through force while also recognizing that other cultures may take much longer to arrive at those positions

To assume that another culture would ever attain Western values on their own time is misguided. The very idea of 'progress' is a Western value.
 

Jasoco

Banned
Eric P said:
i would like the things i post to stand on their own without further manipulation on my end and so that's how i will post them.
Sorry. Wrong answer. Bold next time for the love of Pete.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
The problem the American left has right now how to be opposed to Islamic fascists and still be against a stupid war. In our sound-bite culture, voters see things in very simplistic terms-- the same terms that led so many to believe that Iraq was responsible (somehow) for 9/11.
Bingo. I don't know why so many conservatives seem to think liberals are somehow sympathetic to reactionary Islam. I guess just more typical right-wing smears.

On the other hand, it is always good to see cultural relativism be discredited.
 

Dyno

Member
The article improves once she lets others do the talking, who make a far better case than she does. She paints liberal philosophy in black and white terms, that they accept Fundamental Islam while vilifying less intolerant forces at home, such as Christian Evangelism. There are more than two sides to this situation. I don't think that viewpoint is accurate or is adhered to by many liberals at all.

Fundamental Islam is offensive to a western liberal to the point of it not needing mention. It's been like that for years and it's become a given. What has changed and is worth mentioning is there are similar beliefs popping up here in the West with a fundamentalist movement all their own. It's the same with Israel, while we certainly have more in common with them there is no denying that they have become terribly aggressive and belegerent as of late, what with partioning Palestine and dropping cluster bombs on Lebannon, to name a couple examples.

For a secular liberal to point out that old allies are changing their ways for the worse in no way supports the age-old cultures that we didn't and still don't endorse. It's called cleaning up your own backyard first.
 

theBishop

Banned
The "Islamists" are a ginned up mirage.

Al Qaeda was a fringe group of a few hundred. Its our clumsy, exploitive, disingenuous involvement in the middle east that turns "Muslims" into "Islamists"

And this whole thing with Iran is laughable. They pose no threat to the United States whatsoever. Watching Cheney the other day was like watching a homeless man shouting at a brick wall.

Did you ever see the Chappelle's Show sketch called "Mad Real World" where the one white dude is living in a house with a bunch of over-the-top black stereotypes? There's a scene where the guy's dad comes to visit and a chick keeps screaming at him to "stop looking at me that way!". Then Charlie Murphey's character stabs him. That's a perfect metaphor for our current relationship with Iran.
 
Chipopo said:
To assume that another culture would ever attain Western values on their own time is misguided. The very idea of 'progress' is a Western value.

I disagree and even if I did agree social and cultural pressure is as far as I'm willing to take it without overt actions on the other side to justify it. It's their culture and their society. They have to change it. We can assist that in economic and social world pressure if their values are so distasteful to us but their is nothing liberal to me about going in and forcibly changing their values to suit my values.
 

JayDubya

Banned
I stand... equal parts confused and ambivalent to the options presented in this article.

Where's the "yes, there's good and evil in every society and you should call it like you see it, but other people's evil is their own problem" option? I'm not sure my take is all that different from Stoney's.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
So... the enemy of my enemy is not so unlike my enemy?

The problem the American left has right now how to be opposed to Islamic fascists and still be against a stupid war. In our sound-bite culture, voters see things in very simplistic terms-- the same terms that led so many to believe that Iraq was responsible (somehow) for 9/11.

I don't think religion is the whole problem, as progressive Islamists exist-- it's with theocracies, built on the extreme side of the religion.

Exactly; any discussion pertaining to it seems to get sucked into that black hole of arguments, getting the discussion going nowhere.

The "Islamists" are a ginned up mirage.

Al Qaeda was a fringe group of a few hundred. Its our clumsy, exploitive, disingenuous involvement in the middle east that turns "Muslims" into "Islamists"

Ignoring them as they gained ideological power in the minds of backwards-looking and/or sociopathic didn't work last time, key word being "sociopathic".
 

theBishop

Banned
Ned Flanders said:
I agree with it in principle...being "tolerant of intolerance" is bullshit. Bill Maher has been beating this drum for ages and I couldn't agree more. I just don't know if I agree with the framing of "phony liberals" as culprits.

He raises a good point, but the example he uses consistently are women who wear burkahs. And he completely misunderstands their lifestyle because (like many) he'd rather project his own prejudices than actually talk to someone different from him.

All over Philadelphia, there are women completely covered with only a small slit for their eyes. They aren't secretly plotting to destroy America or forced by their husbands. They are regular people. A lot of them are wearing jeans underneath. They don't talk in Arabic, they don't hate you, and they aren't hiding anything.

Its their religion. They choose to follow it.

That isn't to say women aren't oppressed in the muslim world. Clearly when the Taliban took over Afghanistan after years of secular rule it was a travesty for civil rights. Situations like that may require intervention. But we have no business projecting our own values on cultures that choose to practice these customs
 

Dyno

Member
JayDubya said:
I stand... equal parts confused and ambivalent to the options presented in this article.

Where's the "yes, there's good and evil in every society and you should call it like you see it, but other people's evil is their own problem" option? I'm not sure my take is all that different from Stoney's.

I think that's the balanced and moderate stand to take.

The idea that liberals in the west needed to fixate on turning Iran into a secular democracy while the religious right and neo-conservatism were making gains in our own communities is nonsensical to me. We strive to change internal policy by working within the system. When it comes to foreign policy we use our resources to support and defend the nations that think as we do. We don't alter other countries by force but by offering different levels of inclusion and cooperation.

Not to start a flame war but conservatives always find this layered approach too subtle to appreciate. For them it's always one side or the other, a zero/one equation. You have to attack Iraq or you else you think they're bloody heroes defying the U.S.

It's more than merely stupid, it's downright unintelligent.
 

theBishop

Banned
SatelliteOfLove said:
Ignoring them as they gained ideological power in the minds of backwards-looking and/or sociopathic didn't work last time, key word being "sociopathic".

Yeah, and guess why they gained ideological power: the US played into their hands.

You think there's something different about Islam that makes people want to strap a bomb to themselves? Shit, most of the time, those bombs have remote detonators.

Poor, hopeless people living in poverty are easy to manipulate regardless of religion. That being said, every innocent muslim killed in Iraq by US forces (or mercenaries) is one more compelling argument to take up arms. And another "Islamist" is born.

We wouldn't put up with that shit for a second in the US. Why are they expected to sit back and take it?
 

theBishop

Banned
Dyno said:
Not to start a flame war but conservatives always find this layered approach too subtle to appreciate. For them it's always one side or the other, a zero/one equation. You have to attack Iraq or you else you think they're bloody heroes defying the U.S.

It's more than merely stupid, it's downright unintelligent.

Its not "stupid" or "unintelligent". Its disingenuous. The people putting forth these either/or views are obviously educated enough to understand nuanced opinions.

The issue at hand is a red herring. These people are motivated by completely separate factors. They frame the debate in patriotism and black-or-white terms with the goal of appealing to simpler minds. If they were upfront about their interests (which are somewhat more complex), no one would listen. Again, people are being manipulated.
 
Where do you stand in the new culture wars?
As the rise of Islamism challenges the old assumptions of left and right, new cultural fault lines are emerging. Take our quiz to see which side you are on

A glorious culture clash took place in Iran recently that made me laugh out loud. The children of Che Guevara, the revolutionary pin-up, had been invited to Tehran University to commemorate the 40th anniversary of their father’s death and celebrate the growing solidarity between “the left and revolutionary Islam” at a conference partly paid for by Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president.

There were fraternal greetings and smiles all round as America’s “earth-devouring ambitions” were denounced. But then one of the speakers, Hajj Saeed Qassemi, the co-ordinator of the Association of Volunteers for Suicide-Martyrdom (who presumably remains selflessly alive for the cause), revealed that Che was a “truly religious man who believed in God and hated communism and the Soviet Union”.

Che’s daughter Aleida wondered if something might have been lost in translation. “My father never mentioned God,” she said, to the consternation of the audience. “He never met God.” During the commotion, Aleida and her brother were led swiftly out of the hall and escorted back to their hotel. “By the end of the day, the two Guevaras had become non-persons. The state-controlled media suddenly forgot their existence,” the Iranian writer Amir Taheri noted.

After their departure, Qassemi went on to claim that Fidel Castro, the “supreme guide” of Guevara, was also a man of God. “The Soviet Union is gone,” he affirmed. “The leadership of the downtrodden has passed to our Islamic republic. Those who wish to destroy America must understand the reality and not be clever with words.”

Don’t say you haven’t been warned, comrade, when you flirt with “revolutionary Islam” as if it were a mild form of liberation theology. But it is time, too, for Che to lose his secular halo. If he were still living, the chances are he would be another dictator like Castro, who has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for half a century but gets a pass from liberals because he provides a modest health service.


There used to be a clear dividing line between conservatives and liberals. It defined the culture wars of the late 20th century, which pitted reactionary fuddy-duddies against tolerant, enlightened types, who believed in equal rights for women, minorities and gays. That fault line is becoming as dated as the flower power of the 1960s.

By the time Terry Eagleton, a Marxist professor of literature – how quaint and old-fashioned that sounds – is laying into Martin Amis, the Mr Cool of British fiction, for remarks on Islam that supposedly make the son as racist as his father, Kingsley, “an antisemitic boor, a drink-sodden, self-hating reviler of women, gays and liberals”, it is obvious we are into a wholly different culture war, between phoney and real progressives.

Wasn’t one of Amis fils’s main complaints about Islamic militants that they were “antisemites, psychotic misogynists and homophobes”? Confused? You are not the only one.

My own test for spotting a phoney liberal is as follows. If you think Bush is a fascist and Castro is a progressive, you are not a democrat. If you think cultural traditions can trump women’s rights, you are not a feminist. And if you think antisemitic rants are simply an expression of frustration with American and Israeli policy, you have learnt nothing from history.


It is no longer possible to tell at a glance which side people are on. My husband, a photographer, has long hair and wears T-shirts and cargo pants. We live in stuffy Washington, where almost everybody wears a suit and tie but secretly longs to be artistic and hip. On the school run, nice lawyers confide to him that they hate George Bush, despise the Iraq war and are not as reactionary as they look. They are completely thrown if he tells them he dislikes Islamo-fascism more than Bush, is glad to see the back of Saddam Hussein, supports Nato against the Taliban and thinks the Iranian mullahs should never be trusted with a nuclear bomb. He considers himself an antifascist who believes in the secular values of the Enlightenment and human rights. There is nothing radical about being tolerant of the intolerant, he says.

On the other side of the looking glass, jeans-clad leftists are horrified that one of their own could possibly have anything in common with the dreaded neocons. Christopher Hitchens is a rock star among atheists, most of whom oppose the Iraq war. Last weekend, he travelled to Wisconsin to receive an award from the Freedom from Religion conference for his book God Is Not Great.

“In my acceptance speech I upbraided the audience by saying I could easily have got the impression that they thought the only threat to our society came from the Christian Coalition and possibly the odd Israeli settler,” he says. “You would not have known from anything on sale, any T-shirt, any peaked cap, any book or pamphlet, that there was such a thing as Islamic fundamentalism.”

They didn’t like it. “I got the usual lame and bleating replies that, to the extent that if there was such a thing, it’s been created by us,” Hitchens says. One of the most indulgent forms of western narcissism is that everything is “all about me” – or, in this case, the West. Myopic liberals find it impossible to believe that radical Islam may have a dynamic of its own that threatens their values. “You cannot stand for multiculturalism if you represent a group that wants to kill all the Jews and Hindus. Shouldn’t that be obvious?” Hitchens asks.
“Martin [Amis] was saying, ‘Look, there’s a real problem here’, and good for him.

“The name of the problem is religion, and there is only one religion that threatens us with this kind of thing . . . There is a reason people look askance at a mosque in their neighbourhood, and they are not mad or cruel or stupid or selfish or bigoted to worry about it.”

Nick Cohen, whose book What’s Left? has just been published in paperback, identifies progressives as antitotalitarian internationalists who subscribe to “some kind of universal values”, as he puts it.

“The left are like old-style Tory imperialists, who believe rights are all very well for western Europe but not for Johnny Foreigner, and that the liberation of women is essentially for white-skinned women, not brown-skinned women,” Cohen says.

A case in point is the treatment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somalia-born author of Infidel, who has received an astounding lack of support from liberals and the left. An article in Newsweek described her as a “bomb-thrower”, when it is Hirsi Ali who faces death threats from real bomb-throwers merely for speaking her mind and has had to rush back to the Netherlands because its government will no longer pay for her bodyguards while she is abroad.

Natasha Walter, reviewing her book in The Guardian, wrote blithely: “What sticks in the throats of many of her readers is not her feminism, but her antiIslamism” - as if the two could be separated. It was Hirsi Ali’s culture that led her to be genitally mutilated as a girl, and it was her Muslim former co-religionists who murdered her friend Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film-maker. Why should she remain quiet?

Irshad Manji, the Canadian Muslim feminist, is about to become director of the new Moral Courage Project at New York University. “It’s about developing leaders who speak truth to power within their own community,” she says. “Ultimately it is about defeating self-censorship.

“Human beings are born equal but cultures are not,” she believes. “They are human-made and for the most part man-made. There is nothing sacred about cultures and nothing blasphemous about reforming them.”

When Amis said something a little more forceful along those lines at the Cheltenham literary festival, he set off a new firestorm. “Some societies are just more evolved than others,” he said. Then last week on Channel 4 News, he said: “I feel morally superior to Islamists.”


Note that he is not saying he feels morally superior to Islam - but to Islamists. Is it wrong to make such a judgment, when there is nothing immutable about culture and society?

Manji says: “I absolutely defend his right to believe that certain civilisations are superior to others,” but adds the important rider: “In contemporary times he may be right, but in the past Islam gave birth to the Renaissance.”

To my mind, Manji is a “moderate” Muslim, in that she still describes herself as a person of faith, but to many of her Islamic brethren, she is off the scale. Liberals have been too quick to accept as moderates Muslims who are nothing of the kind – except in comparison with the suicide bombers and theologians of Al-Qaeda.

“It’s not a waste of time to search for the moderate Muslim, because there is a civil war within Islam between people who do and don’t want to live under sharia,” says Hitchens, “but there are a lot of counterfeits who are being seized on in our cultural cringe moment.”

The chief cringers, he might have added, are the phoney liberals. The new culture war looks set to run and run.

So, basically, uninformed liberals - the type that set the stereotypes - are so caught up in their glorification of multiculturalism that they won't call bullshit on backwards cultural institutions/religions.

Anybody who ever spent time at a liberal arts university already knows that.
 

Dyno

Member
theBishop said:
Its not "stupid" or "unintelligent". Its disingenuous. The people putting forth these either/or views are obviously educated enough to understand nuanced opinions.

The issue at hand is a red herring. These people are motivated by completely separate factors. They frame the debate in patriotism and black-or-white terms with the goal of appealing to simpler minds. If they were upfront about their interests (which are somewhat more complex), no one would listen. Again, people are being manipulated.

In a way you contradict yourself.

You admit there are simple minds to manipulate, but those are the people I'm referring to, the people who are only capable of seeing the problem in a black and white situation. Those people go on to frame the debate and continue providing the all or nothing scenarios.

I will agree with you that SOME conservatives might understand the nuances and choose to playing a game, but then by the same token this illuminate that there is a conservative majority they are appealing to that cannot and are not playing any game.
 

Dyno

Member
ConsumerSquare said:
So, basically, uninformed liberals - the type that set the stereotypes - are so caught up in their glorification of multiculturalism that they won't call bullshit on backwards cultural institutions/religions.

Anybody who ever spent time at a liberal arts university already knows that.

It's a point she's making but it's a false one.

I don't hear any liberal extolling the virtues of the Iranian government, they just don't want to see a country of 70 million people suffer a massive bombing campaign.

This Middle East entanglement is one without a good side or good guys, it's just a pack of opportunistic assholes and misguided losers angling for power. It's easy to be disgusted with the whole thing and both sides. That's probably the most common point of view but it gets painted as supporting the enemy in a time of war; if you're not with us, you're against us.
 

theBishop

Banned
Dyno said:
In a way you contradict yourself.

You admit there are simple minds to manipulate, but those are the people I'm referring to, the people who are only capable of seeing the problem in a black and white situation. Those people go on to frame the debate and continue providing the all or nothing scenarios.

I will agree with you that SOME conservatives might understand the nuances and choose to playing a game, but then by the same token this illuminate that there is a conservative majority they are appealing to that cannot and are not playing any game.

I'm saying the Richard Perles and Paul Wolfowitzes of the world are very intelligent people. They can certainly understand the gray areas of the debate, but the debate in question does not really concern them. They have their own motivations.

Their worldview is decidedly fringe. The public would not allow these policies to be executed unless they thought they were being threatened. Enter the "Islamist" threat. It ties in nicely with the majority Christian and/or racist base they are counting on to back them.
 
The pdf "Take our Quiz" is the best example of the false dilemma the article is presenting.

It presents a series of questions where the right response is a defense of liberal values. It is easy to answer correctly the right question when the society is your own or a hypothetical society you are a part of and you have the ability to easy legislate or change the situation. It's a fairly useless however when you are speaking of a society that is not your own and where your values don't predominate. You can still pick the "right" answer and realize you are limited in what the actual practical reach of disseminating these values are.

I'm always interested in the paradox in the way we treat China for example which is as anti-western values wise in many ways as some of the strongly Islamic countries yet we treat them in a much different fashion because of economic and military realities.
 

theBishop

Banned
Stoney Mason said:
I'm always interested in the paradox in the way we treat China for example which is as anti-western values wise in many ways as some of the strongly Islamic countries yet we treat them in a much different fashion because of economic and military realities.

great point. and it should be telling you that there is no real Islamist threat. Kim Jong Il has been far more antagonistic toward the US in his pursuit of nuclear weapons. But our president doesn't go all Clint Eastwood on him. Why? Because he's actually a threat.
 
This is one of the best political discussions in a while.

I knew when I wrote "Islamist" it was the wrong word but I was mental-blocked and in a hurry-- still it illustrates teh point well: I know squat about Islam and the Muslim world, save a few things I pick up from people around me. I read about Afgahnistan back before 9/11 made them the center of media attention for a while, but I don't pretend that all of the Muslim world is anywhere close to that extreme. But because of what I don't know, I have to be vigilant about what I absorb from the media or politicians-- neither are good teachers, and I don't have the knowlegde to assess very well. And unfortunately, too many people aren't willing to be skeptical of what they hear when they don't already have a knowledge base.

Anyway, I'm somewhere between Stoney and JayD on this. I'm not for Iran getting nukes, but that's a pragmatic stance, not a moral one.
 

theBishop

Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
I'm not for Iran getting nukes, but that's a pragmatic stance, not a moral one.

And that's a viable conclusion. But don't confuse Iran for "Islamists" or "Terrorists" or "Al Qaeda" or anything having to do with 9/11 and the so-called "War on Terror". The fact that Iran is a recognized government and not an organization makes it a completely different beast.

What I think is especially hilarious is that Iran's stated nuclear ambitions are nuclear power plants. It is inconceivable to Washington that a nation sitting on a massive oil supply would have an interest in alternative fuel. :lol
 
“In my acceptance speech I upbraided the audience by saying I could easily have got the impression that they thought the only threat to our society came from the Christian Coalition and possibly the odd Israeli settler,” he says. “You would not have known from anything on sale, any T-shirt, any peaked cap, any book or pamphlet, that there was such a thing as Islamic fundamentalism.”
In Wisconsin?
 

Dyno

Member
theBishop said:
And that's a viable conclusion. But don't confuse Iran for "Islamists" or "Terrorists" or "Al Qaeda" or anything having to do with 9/11 and the so-called "War on Terror". The fact that Iran is a recognized government and not an organization makes it a completely different beast.

What I think is especially hilarious is that Iran's stated nuclear ambitions are nuclear power plants. It is inconceivable to Washington that a nation sitting on a massive oil supply would have an interest in alternative fuel. :lol

Yup.

At the heart of the Iran issue is whether or not the world at large (mostly America and Israel) is going to deal with them according to the Rule of Law? Nuclear proliferation has set rules followed by all but four countries in the world. There is monitoring and their is enforcement for infractions.

Not trusting Iran is anyone's perogative and who knows, you might be right, but untrustworthy people aren't thrown in jails for crimes you think they might commit and the same logic has to apply here.

The Rule of Law in any society and in the world dictates that you have to give people the chance to fuck up and break the law. Sure there may be consequences and they may even be severe, but you build the system and the nation thereby so that it can withstand the hit and respond effectively. That means watching Iran like a hawk (IAEA) and bringing to attention any transgression.

To not do that is to invite the other scenario; guys like Bush and Cheney threatening consequences and war because of weapons that don't exist and pointing to powerless boogiemen (Ahmedinajad) as viable targets.

Funny, but that course of action sounds strangely familiar...
 

theBishop

Banned
Dyno said:
Yup.

At the heart of the Iran issue is whether or not the world at large (mostly America and Israel) is going to deal with them according to the Rule of Law? Nuclear proliferation has set rules followed by all but four countries in the world. There is monitoring and their is enforcement for infractions.

Not trusting Iran is anyone's perogative and who knows, you might be right, but untrustworthy people aren't thrown in jails for crimes you think they might commit and the same logic has to apply here.

The Rule of Law in any society and in the world dictates that you have to give people the chance to fuck up and break the law. Sure there may be consequences and they may even be severe, but you build the system and the nation thereby so that it can withstand the hit and respond effectively. That means watching Iran like a hawk (IAEA) and bringing to attention any transgression.

To not do that is to invite the other scenario; guys like Bush and Cheney threatening consequences and war because of weapons that don't exist and pointing to powerless boogiemen (Ahmedinajad) as viable targets.

Funny, but that course of action sounds strangely familiar...

Referring to the "rule of law" related to nonproliferation is laughable. The biggest offender is the one jumping up and down to have it upheld!
 

Dyno

Member
theBishop said:
Referring to the "rule of law" related to nonproliferation is laughable. The biggest offender is the one jumping up and down to have it upheld!

I agree about the biggest offender part but they aren't even asking it to be upheld, they are ignoring it completely. If they asked it to be upheld then they would be demanding IAEA inspections, which are happening and are coming back clean.

No, the law is hampering them, so they're ignoring it, which is my original point. Rather than abide by the Rule of Law they are making threats and preparing for an attack.

Not enough people realize this. Too many people are following their lead and not condemning their own government for bypassing the NPT.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Ignatz Mouse said:
So... the enemy of my enemy is not so unlike my enemy?

The problem the American left has right now how to be opposed to Islamic fascists and still be against a stupid war.
If this Islamofacist force actually existed, this would be of greater concern.
 
theBishop said:
And that's a viable conclusion. But don't confuse Iran for "Islamists" or "Terrorists" or "Al Qaeda" or anything having to do with 9/11 and the so-called "War on Terror". The fact that Iran is a recognized government and not an organization makes it a completely different beast.

What I think is especially hilarious is that Iran's stated nuclear ambitions are nuclear power plants. It is inconceivable to Washington that a nation sitting on a massive oil supply would have an interest in alternative fuel. :lol

Iran is fundamentalist Islamic Republic founded by a fundamentalist Islamic preacher. How can Iran be anything but Islamist? Terrorists, maybe not, but still.

Also if you think any nation would be stupid enough to have nuclear reactors, but not put in place a procedure for making nuclear weapons you're naive. Canada, Japan, Germany all could get weapons with in a matter of weeks, Iran can and always will have the ability to do the same once they get their reactors.
 

theBishop

Banned
GenericPseudonym said:
Iran is fundamentalist Islamic Republic founded by a fundamentalist Islamic preacher. How can Iran be anything but Islamist? Terrorists, maybe not, but still.

Also if you think any nation would be stupid enough to have nuclear reactors, but not put in place a procedure for making nuclear weapons you're naive. Canada, Japan, Germany all could get weapons with in a matter of weeks, Iran can and always will have the ability to do the same once they get their reactors.

So if Mitt Romney wins the presidency, he will be "Mormonist"? :lol

My limited understanding of nuclear power is that the uranium fuel used to generate power is not pure enough to create an atomic bomb. The byproduct of uranium can be used to make weaponized plutonium, but this is far more difficult and Iran is not likely to have the resources, considering they're estimated to be 2-5 years from having a bomb anyway.
 
I don't think Iran's motives for wanting a nuclear weapon are evil. America is threatening them on a daily basis with military action. If I was Iran, I would have no reason to trust that America won't invade us whenever they feel like it - Iraq didn't have any nukes either. I don't think we can realistically ask them to stop producing these weapons when we still have them and still allow our allies to.

On the flip side, I'm sick to death of Muslims in this country (England). Not the majority of Muslims, of course - two of the Muslims I've met are far more down to earth than most Christians I know, and there's no reason why this should not be the case. But the extremists, the ones protesting on the streets of London at some silly cartoons waving signs saying "Behead all those who insult Islam" and "Freedom of speech go to hell" should be the target of an intelligent biological weapon that identifies the stupid gene and destroys accordingly. If you don't like the principles of this country, get the fuck out.

Also, I think I'll go crazy next time I see a young couple, the guy all blinged out with his nice shirt and expensive sunglasses, and his girlfriend dressed in a black ghost costume. It bugs me for two reasons: one, he can make himself look attractive but she can't, sexist cunts, and two, they cover themselves so others won't be tempted. Darling, I've seen enough sunken eye sockets to know that most of you ain't all that. Don't flatter yourself.
 

Dyno

Member
Freshmaker said:
If this Islamofacist force actually existed, this would be of greater concern.

Seriously, even I would grab my gun. Fundamental Islamist Facsists (F.I.F. - you saw it here first!) would not only be Frankenstein-like in their ability to wage war but atomically unstable!

People need to stop using Islamofascist because it doesn't make sense. It's more than a made-up term, it's nonsensical.

Fascism is a nationalist movement, the will of the government is held above all. It adherents tend to dwell upon racial purity as a means of justifying the historical claim they have on the nation. Fascist movements tend to be secular in nature or moderately religous at the very most. (Italians remained nominally Catholic out of tradition.)

Islamists on the other hand hold their religious identity over that of any national identity. Their country in fact is futuristic, an Islamic Caliphate that doesn't yet exist. They are beholden to Sharia Law before any national directive. They also will take in all races provided you prove to them beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are a strict and devoted Muslim.

The two terms cannot realistically co-habitate. It would be a conflict of interest.

I get that you want to label them as bad guys but utilizing the F-word to invoke some kind of Hitler-esque level of villainy is not helping sell your case to people who, you know, like words and stuff.

Islamic Fundies will do. Yes it echoes our Christain Fundies back home but hey, it is after all a geopolitical pissing match with a spiritual dimension. Call a spade a spade.
 

Dyno

Member
GenericPseudonym said:
Iran is fundamentalist Islamic Republic founded by a fundamentalist Islamic preacher. How can Iran be anything but Islamist? Terrorists, maybe not, but still.

Iran isn't fundamentalist, they're modern and fairly liberal from an Islamic point of view. They are not Taliban, they are not Al-Qaeda. If you lump in Iran as fundamentalist then it's really the same as doing so for all Muslim countries. It's not really helping.

Also if you think any nation would be stupid enough to have nuclear reactors, but not put in place a procedure for making nuclear weapons you're naive. Canada, Japan, Germany all could get weapons with in a matter of weeks, Iran can and always will have the ability to do the same once they get their reactors.

Yeah that matter of weeks is pretty startling. As in i don't think so. Just to nitpick but Canada, Japan, or Germany couldn't make a nuclear weapons worth much because our space programs are a little... not there. Gotta have a good one to make an intercontinental rocket. Now Iran's rocket program is quite good - thank you Russia, but again that pesky Rule of Law comes into play. They're monitored, if they make the spicy uranium the IAEA will know.

They are signatories of the NPT. They are allowed to make a reactor. You can prepare on the assumption that they will break the law, but you can't punish them before the fact.
 

JayDubya

Banned
Mandark said:
"If liberals were REALLY liberals, they'd be Tories!" says the Tory paper.

Dumb article.

It seems kind of like if Reason wrote a simplistic binary choice quiz and accompanying article condemning progressives.
 
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