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White people now have better taste in rap music than black people confirmed. (Long)

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The Cotton Club
Black-conscious hip-hop deals with an overwhelmingly white live audience
by Bakari Kitwana

Armed with messages of Black political resistance, Black pride, and opposition to militarization and corporatization, designed in part to counter the commercial hip-hop party-and-bullshit madness dumbing down the nation's youth, hip-hop's lyrical descendants of the "fight the power" golden era today are booking concerts in record numbers—far beyond anything imaginable by their predecessors. Problem is, they can hardly find a Black face in the audience.


As the Coup (Pick a Bigger Gun), Zion-I (True and Livin'), and the Perceptionists (Black Dialogue) get set for a wave of touring to promote their new CDs this summer, the audience that will be looking back at them unmasks one of the most significant casualties of hip-hop's pop culture ascension: the shrinking Black concert audience for hardcore, political hip-hop.

"My audience has gone from being over 95 percent Black 10 years ago to over 95 percent white today," laments Boots Riley of the Coup, whose 1994 Genocide and Juice responded to Snoop Dogg's 1993 gangsta party anthem "Gin and Juice." "We jokingly refer to our tour as the Cotton Club," he says—a reference to the 1920s and '30s Harlem jazz spot where Black musicians played to whites-only audiences.

Boots says he first noticed the shift one night in 1995, in a concert on the outskirts of Portland, Oregon. Opening for Coolio, he stepped center stage and grabbed the mic as usual, but then saw something unusual about the audience: a standing-room-only sea of whiteness. Some were almost dressed like farmers, he recalls. Others had their heads shaved. "Damn, skinheads are out there," he thought. "They can't be here to see us." But the frantic crowd began chanting along rhyme for rhyme.

Zion, MC of the independent rap group Zion-I, agrees the similarities to jazz are striking: "Jazz went white, then Black, then white again. At this point African Americans aren't the ones supporting live jazz [performances]. It's the same in many ways with independent hip-hop. I've been to shows where the only Black people in the place are onstage. It's kind of surreal."

"I love Boots Riley's music, but in general people in the 'hood are not checking for the Coup," says Brother Ali, part owner of the Minneapolis-based hip-hop collective Rhymesayers Entertainment. "It's hard enough to get some of our people to go to a Kweli show. It has a lot to do with the fact that the emphasis on the culture has been taken away. It's just the industry now and it's sold back to us—it's not ours anymore. It used to be anti-establishment, off the radar, counterculture. People in the streets are now being told what hip-hop is and what it looks like by TV."

According to industry insiders and most media outlets, though, the shifting audience isn't just a Black consciousness thing—it's prevalent in mainstream hip-hop as well. Whites run hip-hop, they say, from the business executives at major labels to the suburban teen consumers. But the often-intoned statistic claiming that 70 percent of American hip-hop sells to white people may cover up more than it reveals.

No hard demographic study has ever been conducted on hip-hop's consumers. And Nielsen SoundScan, the chief reference source on music sales, by its own admission does not break down its over-the-counter totals by race. "Any conclusions drawn from our data that reference race involve a great deal of conjecture," a SoundScan spokesperson insists.

Wendy Day, founder of the Rap Coalition, a hip-hop artist-advocacy group, says she's attempted to pair up with several popular hip-hop magazines on such a study, but none would commit to help fund it. When she asked an executive at a major record label, she got an even more interesting response: "He didn't see the value in writing that kind of check," she says. "Because rap is selling so well, he didn't see the value in knowing who his market is. 'It's not broken, Wendy,' he said. 'We don't need to fix it.' "

And distinctions must be drawn between buyers and listeners. In terms of hip-hop's listening audience, Nielsen SoundScan doesn't weigh those passing on and burning CDs. (In July 2003 Nielsen SoundScan began tracking companies like iTunes that sell downloads for a fee.) Nielsen SoundScan, which claims to track 90 percent of the market, doesn't take into account underground mixtape CDs, mom-and-pop store sales, or big retailers like Starbucks and Burlington Coat Factory that refuse to share their sales information.

Concert crowds are another matter. Looking for the 70 to 80 percent majority white audience? In most cases you won't find it at a Nelly concert or any other top-selling hip-hop artist's show. At large venues like Detroit's 40,000-capacity Comerica Park, where Eminem and 50 Cent will headline the Anger Management Tour in August, estimates suggest that 50 to 60 percent of the seats are filled by white fans. By contrast, Caucasian concertgoers staring down culturally focused Black hip-hop artists topple these numbers. Although to date there's been no attempt to track concert demographic data, fans, promoters, and independent MCs who play live more than half the year give estimates of 85 to 95 percent.

Backnthaday, artists like KRS-One, PE, Brand Nubian, Queen Latifah, Poor Righteous Teachers, and others coexisted with more purely party-oriented acts like Kid 'n Play, Heavy D, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince. They could also be found alongside those who got a little more gritty wit' it, such as Schoolly D and Luther Campbell's 2 Live Crew. In those days Afrocentric MCs rolled neck and neck with their counterparts, routinely reaching 500,000 units—the gold sales standard of the mid '80s. By decade's end, a few such records—Public Enemy's It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, for instance—had gone platinum.

That's no longer the case. In today's mainstream hip-hop, the mark of success is multiplatinum sales. 50 Cent's most recent release sold over 1 million units in four days; Nelly's 2001 Country Grammar to date has moved over 9 million units. By contrast, dead prez, the sole contemporary political hip-hop group with mainstream distribution, struggled to top 500,000.


Dead prez aside, the most widely circulated conscientious commentary in mainstream hip-hop mostly comes in the form of surprise protest tracks from artists who would never be deemed "political"—Jadakiss's and Eminem's pre-election hits "Why" and "Mosh," for example.

And whereas a decade ago artists consistently banged out social commentary with mass appeal, today the closest equivalents are Kanye West, Common, and the Roots, whose stance on wax focuses more on aesthetics than resistance—closer to A Tribe Called Quest, say, than to Public Enemy. PE's more direct lyrical descendants have been ghettoized in the underground, with high-end sales in the 25,000-to-50,000 range—over months or years, rather than weeks.

"Today, there are no purely conscious MCs competing on the level with the top-selling artists in the game," says Erik Smith of Critical Mass Consulting, a firm that does street-level lifestyle marketing for major labels' new releases. But does this mean there is no longer a Black market for Black consciousness in hip-hop?

In the '80s the gap between the civil rights generation and their hip-hop generation offspring was less severe. Culturally centered artists in that era were often steeped in the politics of the turn-of-the-'70s Black power movement. The lyrical content of the time didn't venture far beyond those borders. Such was the case of Public Enemy's 1990 Fear of a Black Planet. The CD jacket even extensively quoted psychologist Frances Cress Welsing's "Cress Theory of Color Confrontation" that emerged in the 1970s, likening to white supremacy football, basketball, baseball, and other ball games where the color of the ball and what is done to it are subconsciously connected to America's racial politics.

Welsing also had another, less-known theory, regarding the inferiorization of Black children. Welsing argued that soon white supremacists wouldn't have to worry about making Blacks seem inferior—they'd just need to keep providing them with inferior education, housing, health care, child care, and the like, and in a generation or two they would be. After 15 years of gangstas and bling, perhaps hip-hop's Black audience has been so inundated with material garbage that they don't want an uplifting message?

Zion, who believes the withering Black audience reflects the diminishing discussion of Blackness in public discourse, thinks so. "I do so many shows in front of mostly white audiences that it's the norm," says Zion. "When I get in front of a Black audience it's like, 'Finally you're here, feel me.' We've done shows in Chicago and São Paulo, Brazil, and it feels good to be in front of our people when they are feeling it. But there are some thugged-out crowds where our message doesn't resonate, and Black folks will say that they aren't trying to hear hip-hop artists remind them of their problems."

Today's climate is indeed a far cry from the African medallion mania of the 1980s. In the academy, we've gone from 1980s discussions of Black studies and Afrocentricity to multiculturalism to current-day debates about post-Blackness and polyculturalism. At the same time, in the arena of mainstream politics we've gone from discussing the collective Black impact of Jesse Jackson's run for president to the individual career successes of Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell, and Condoleezza Rice. In the streets we've gone from the Nation of Islam patrolling housing projects to whites reclaiming Harlem, South Side Chicago, and East Oakland, and Black scholars like Columbia University's Lance Freeman arguing that poor Blacks aren't significantly displaced by gentrification. "So many Black people don't want to hear it," Zion continues. "They want that thug shit. That's why I'm thankful for the audience we do have."

Mr. Lif, whose success as a solo artist led him to the recent partnering with Akrobatik and DJ Fakts One to form the Perceptionists, agrees. "It's disorienting. It's bizarre," he says. "But no artist is in a position to choose his fans. Whoever is in the audience, I love them for being there. They are allowing me to make a living doing what I love."

And the demand for art-as-a-weapon hip-hop music is so great that the best-known independent MCs are able to book from 150 to 200 concerts a year in venues where the capacity ranges from 200 to 1,500, all the while not breaking through to the mainstream.

Recognizing the success of such underground white MCs as Aesop Rock, El-P, and Sage Francis—all moving around 100,000 units per release—Brother Ali says, "Our genre is looked at as white rap. It's almost like a white chitlin circuit of underground rap music." The more popular underground white hip-hop artists are helping to nurture the audience at venues that now regularly feature conscious Black hip-hop artists. At the same time as political hip-hop's audience has gotten whiter, audiences for old-school socially conscious hip-hop (think De La Soul) and politically conscious hip-hop (think Chuck D and KRS-One) have merged. It's an audience that includes white kids, college students, and those tapping into what remains of the counterculture of hip-hop. This requires fans with the time on their hands to search out MCs in independent record stores and on the Internet.

The largely Latino concert turnouts for these MCs in specific areas of cities like Houston, El Paso, and Los Angeles, however, quickly reveals that none of this is an exact science. In Oakland, one MC reports a majority Black and brown audience, in contrast to a mostly white audience when he performs next door in San Francisco. In the South, in cities like Baton Rouge and Charleston, independent labels like Slaughterhouse and Pure Pain are posting Aesop Rock numbers and their concert audience is nearly all Black.

"None of these factors change the fact that the audience supporting Black hip-hop artists with a political message is mostly white," says Nicole Balin of Ballin' Entertainment, a Los Angeles- based PR firm representing underground hip-hop artists. Yet according to Wendy Day, no matter how many white kids are being drawn in, the Black stamp of approval is critical even when the audience is primarily white.

"I can tell you as someone who works with independent labels in parts of the South and Midwest that if you are breaking a record at the street level in these communities, and you don't have young Black kids buying your record, you will not go anywhere," Day says. "Unless it's legitimized by the Black community, these kids are not buying a damn thing other than what their friends of color are listening to."

Black hip-hop kids as the gatekeepers for what's hot has long been the state of affairs for mainstream and cutting-edge hip-hop—but that may be changing in some parts of the country like Minneapolis, for example, where white MCs and white audiences have it on lock. And while there are countless white hip-hop kids supporting the underground who see Blackness as key to hip-hop's sense of urgency, growing numbers believe white underground MCs are hip-hop's avant-garde. More and more they insist without pause that their favorite white underground MCs are smarter and hence better.

"One of the hardest things we're dealing with now is the underlying feeling of white supremacy among fans who feel they are a part of hip-hop, but are listening to and prefer mostly white MCs," says Brother Ali, who recently toured with several old-school legends together with Atmosphere—a biracial independent rap group who, like Brother Ali, hails from Minneapolis. "They believe that Aesop Rock is better than independent artists who are Black and mainstream artists like Ludacris. These MCs are doing a lot with hip-hop artistically that they have learned from Black people, but [their fans] don't want to hear from the old-school originators because they believe it's the white MCs who created the styles they like. This isn't an underground-versus-mainstream thing—it's a racist thing."

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0526,kitwana,65332,22.html/3
 

Stahsky

A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
It's true.

2eveqop.jpg
 
It doesn't surprise me at all. Growing up with all of the really bad rap shoved down my throat, it took me until late high school to realize that good rap even existed. It's stupid, yes, but the mainstream really is that bad.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Yeah, when I went to see Talib Kweli in Central Park last year, both white and asian people outnumbered black people by quite a bit.
 

mrWalrus

Banned
I never understood how people could be wrong about an opinion. That said anyone not down with Madlib is failing with their taste in music. :D
 
nah I think it's probably correct. The stereotypical white college student probably listens to Dead Prez and Talib Kweli more than the black ones do.

I did, anyway.
 
RumpledForeskin said:
Why do artists give a shit what color the listener is?

If you are creating a message music and aiming the message at a group (in this case your own) perhaps you would be disappointed if that group isn't the main receiver of that message.
 
Stoney Mason said:
If you are creating a message music and aiming the message at a group (in this case your own) perhaps you would be disappointed if that group isn't the main receiver of that message.

or maybe you would be happy to know that other people care about your message.
 
Stoney Mason said:
If you are creating a message music and aiming the message at a group (in this case your own) perhaps you would be disappointed if that group isn't the main receiver of that message.

Understood. Kind of like how the "Bible Belt" states have higher incidences of crime, divorce and teen pregnancy.
 

esbern

Junior Member
White people now have better taste in rap music than black people confirmed.


Confirmed? WTF? Did this board have a prior opinion that black people have bad taste in rap? And if they do, why are the best rappers today black? This article is retarded. Go to any rap show with a "good" rapper and you'll see there are plenty of black kids there.
 
ElectricBlue187 said:
or maybe you would be happy to know that other people care about your message.

If that message doesn't help effect change or isn't heard within said group I'm not sure how that is really effective for an explicitly political message ala Public Enemy and such but okay.
 
esbern said:
Confirmed? WTF? Did this board have a prior opinion that black people have bad taste in rap? And if they do, why are the best rappers today black? This article is retarded. Go to any rap show with a "good" rapper and you'll see there are plenty of black kids there.

Depends on how you define "good" I would argue. As a "good" singer has many different interpretations.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
James Watson: "[African] taste in rap not really the same as ours."
 
One of the best rap shows I have ever seen live was Toby Mac

a christian rapper.

He knows how to put on a stage show though.
 

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
It was only a matter of time, before they got sick of hearing the same BS coming from 50, and everyone else. That being said, I dare not say someone that listens to just Aesop Rock, has better taste than someone whom listens to UGK. Then, you have the ones that listen to both.

But yea...the point remains, and, I'm not in the least bit surprised.

Count Dookkake said:
So does this fit in with James Watson's recent statements?

Sarcastic, much?
 

jehuty

Member
I must say this is true. Couple weeks ago i was at a common concert and it was mostly a mix of people, but the majority was white people. Not that it really matters.

I dont like the term white rapper either. Sage francis is as good or better than a lot of the top underground rappers out there. Him being "white" has nothing to do with his success.
 
If you've been to a Talib Kweli concert you've known this for some time.

White people make up the majority of the hip hop market. They buy more 50 Cent albums than black do, and they buy more Dead Prez albums than blacks do; it's not surprising considering the sheer numbers of people we're talking about. If you go to a 50 Cent concert you're going to see a vast majority of whites - so it's not like whites have stumbled across some higher level of understanding.

From my experience many blacks I know won't give a rapper the time of day if he doesn't conform to their notions of what a rapper/black male/etc should be: sagging jeans, gangsta persona, pimp. So of course they aren't checking for guys like Common, who dress like "fags" according to some of my friends. That type of closed minded attitude can become dangerous. Case in point: this idea that if you're smart, talk "proper" english, etc you're somehow acting white. What are you really saying about yourself when you connect being smart to being white?

A few decades ago it was the white media who propagated stereotypes of blacks. Now we're orchestrating the minstrel shows, and there's even a cable network channel created to do this 20 hours a day - with the rest dedicated to either advertising scam artist "preachers" or faux debates on race relations which are interrupted by commercials for the regularly scheduled stupidity that plagues the channel
 

Zyzyxxz

Member
PhoenixDark said:
From my experience many blacks I know won't give a rapper the time of day if he doesn't conform to their notions of what a rapper/black male/etc should be: sagging jeans, gangsta persona, pimp. So of course they aren't checking for guys like Common, who dress like "fags" according to some of my friends. That type of closed minded attitude can become dangerous. Case in point: this idea that if you're smart, talk "proper" english, etc you're somehow acting white. What are you really saying about yourself when you connect being smart to being white?

WHAT!

Who dares disrespect Common! Let me at dem!
 

theBishop

Banned
Frankly, its bullshit that these guys act like this is a bad thing. It may be unexpected, but Zion-I certainly isn't watering-down their message for their white audience. If you don't like that more whites appreciate your message than blacks, then you should stop spreading it. Or find a more effective way to reach a black audience.

PhillyWeekly (free alt paper) ran an article 2 weeks ago about http://www.soulgen.com. Its a group trying to promote conscious hip-hop and get poor black kids to listen to this instead of MCs that promote violence/materialism/sexism/etc. But you can't force people to appreciate art when they are happy with corporate pop like 50. And anyway, guys like Kweli, Common, Mos, etc are only "positive" by comparison. They still have a pretty narrow-minded view of the world that I'm sure homosexual and feminist groups wouldn't find "uplifting".

Guys like Zion-I, and Talib Kweli are under the radar. It seems to me that the people looking for music outside the mainstream tend to be white hipsters finding music on the internet.

The undercurrent here is that Zion-I just assumes that because they are rapping against the white corporate machine, a black audience is a given:

Mr. Officer, we don't want no trouble
We just doing our black thing, making our own government
You'll be lucky if you don't get locked up
Shackled, chained, and dropped off, picking all of the cotton

And of course white people would be too offended or alienated by the message to appreciate it.

But in fact the opposite is true: Black people enjoy the 50 Cent minstrel show just as much as white people.

And the world Zion-I rap about doesn't resonate with the people they are trying to touch. Sorry, that's how it goes. Connor Oberst and Ben Gibbard don't want to be singing to junior high girls either.
 
PhoenixDark said:
From my experience many blacks I know won't give a rapper the time of day if he doesn't conform to their notions of what a rapper/black male/etc should be: sagging jeans, gangsta persona, pimp.

Very sad and very true.
 
ElectricBlue187 said:
blacks make up 12.8% of the population
whites are 75%
Still, how can someone make up faces about whose taste is better? Half, or most, IMO, of the artists listed in this thread as respectable are IMO boring and music I wouldn't listen to, not because they cannot write, but the songs themselves are boring. The music industry is producer-driven.
 

GoutPatrol

Forgotten in his cell
The Abominable Snowman said:
Still, how can someone make up faces about whose taste is better? Half, or most, IMO, of the artists listed in this thread as respectable are IMO boring and music I wouldn't listen to, not because they cannot write, but the songs themselves are boring. The music industry is producer-driven.

Can we really trust your tastes on anything?
 
GoutPatrol said:
Can we really trust your tastes on anything?
Well, really, when Talib Kweli's "Get By" dropped, it did really well on the charts, but usually, producers save their beats for popular/higher paying labels and artists.

Those guys listed above usually go about getting underwhelming "Underground" producers then wonder why they didn't sell a single damn copy.
 

swoon

Member
i don't think zion i is a creditable source for anything rap related really. could they not find jedi mind tricks?
 
The Abominable Snowman said:
Well, really, when Talib Kweli's "Get By" dropped, it did really well on the charts, but usually, producers save their beats for popular/higher paying labels and artists.

Those guys listed above usually go about getting underwhelming "Underground" producers then wonder why they didn't sell a single damn copy.

There's nothing underwhelming about underground producers like Madlib
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
The people don't come because you grandiose motherfuckers don't play what they like. If you play what they like then the people will come.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
This is reatrded. Just because white people listed to your music doesn't mean they agree with much that you are saying. I am sure they are all "yeah fuck Bush!" and all that but start talking about black this and black that and they are just listening to the beat. I am sure they were/are a ton of white James Brown fans who know all of the words to "I'm black and I'm proud."
 

Chichikov

Member
I think the explanation is much simpler.
White people are discovering hip-hop.
Retarded "wiggers" were first to accept mainstream crap.
But now music connoisseurs start to listen to the great hip hop which is out there.
and given that the black people are a minority in the US it is to be expected that you'll see less of them in shows (plus the lower average income of african americans means that statistically they have less money to spend on music).
 
Blackace said:
This is reatrded. Just because white people listed to your music doesn't mean they agree with much that you are saying. I am sure they are all "yeah fuck Bush!" and all that but start talking about black this and black that and they are just listening to the beat. I am sure they were/are a ton of white James Brown fans who know all of the words to "I'm black and I'm proud."

Or they don't know/care about the issues. Like the idiots who wear Che shirts/avatars

scola said:
The people don't come because you grandiose motherfuckers don't play what they like. If you play what they like then the people will come.

I would like to believe I'm the only person who gets this reference, but...probably not :(
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
I remember reading an article in Vibe or something. I think it was written by Sway or something, but the line was: "If you want your rap to be popular in clubs then you get a producer like Timbaland, but if you're happy being known only in coffee shops by white dudes, then you can rap about all the social injustices you want."

really interesting line written like 3 years ago.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
PhoenixDark said:
Or they don't know/care about the issues. Like the idiots who wear Che shirts/avatars

A lot know about issues that effect them (like Bush, 9/11, Katrina and so on) and there are a lot of "hippy" types, like all of my friends who went to Evergreen State college. Hippy isn't a really good word for them but they are the closest thing our generation has to hippies
 
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