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[Alx]

I honestly don't know anyone who wants to converse with their family over long distances while sitting on the couch, but maybe I just don't know the right people. I'm not sure that many people consider the living room as the place they want to communicate with people who aren't in the living room with them.

I'm not the kind of person having many family conversations, but I was thinking the living room couch was the best place to converse with your family over long distance (whether you need a TV for that is another matter...). Where else would you do that ?

 

[travisbickle]

I have a family across three continents and in a number of different countries. Grandma might be ok with a static camera on the TV, but in my example the tablets get moved from room to room between cousins, nephews, nieces, aunties and uncles.

It is amazing the different response between "gran's on the phone come talk to her" to "show gran your new .... take the iPad."

 

[DEADEVIL]

I honestly don't know anyone who wants to converse with their family over long distances while sitting on the couch, but maybe I just don't know the right people. I'm not sure that many people consider the living room as the place they want to communicate with people who aren't in the living room with them.

Not to mention the fact that both iPad and iPhone have skype, allowing you to access skype and chat with family anywhere in your house. If the argument is that "well, grandma won't have an ipad or an iphone", then I seriously doubt that grandma is going to buy something called an "xbox" to do that either.

I totally understand the appeal of a centralized set top box for multiple functions, but talking to people on skype in your living room is about as appealing as surfing the web on your TV.

You may not see the appeal, but people have been doing it all gen.

I've done it at holidays and it destroys the desktop, laptop, or tablet experience.

The old vision cam was great but you could only talk to gthe person who was on headset.

Kinect is a far superior experience as everyone in the room can talk.

But the best thing about it is it's like literally being in the living room of the other person.

You can talk to your whole family from your big screen to their big sceen.

Watch presents being opened, eat dinner on Thanksgiving etc. Kinect can even pan out and shrink the view based on how many people are in the view.

Although, you were able to connect to laptops and tablets before through MSN chat, with Skype they will have a centralized and simpler system.

Like I've mentioned the ability to make phone calls internationally for a few dollars is a good incentive as well.

But, at the end of the day, SKype will just be something MS can advertise as a good feature.

The subsidized cable box idea would actually push major hardware untits, if it was actually true.

 

[Americanmushroom]

the TV-Tuner won't work in about 85% of the world anyway. XBOX will probably 'win' in America as usual and that's it.

For Skype... it's been in TV's now for a couple of years and in cheaper TV's then the next XBOX probably.

Another thing. the XBOX is aimed to young people. They all know skype and have it on many devices. The argument about the old grandma is ridiculous. The old grandma wouldn't buy an XBOX anyway as it is 'too complicated' for her just like any other electronic device that came out since the year 1990

 

[Thrakier]

My grandma can use Skype on her tablet just fine.

This. It's hilarious to think someone would buy a GAMING console to skype with their grandma...wtf?

 

[jeff_rigby]

I'm not sure if the OP understands what's coming or if he didn't want to spend the time explaining what's coming to preface the article so we know where he is coming from. It's all going to be IPTV with a Head end box/Gateway device/Advanced Cable DVR set top box that contains the multiple (6) tuners in each home serving IPTV via DLNA over MOCA or Home Network.

Education part:

Sony's Nanse is functionally identical (same chipset used in many of the head end boxes) to the Tru2way RVU boxes that are/will be in all Cable markets soon. It's also functionally identical to Silicon dust's OTA and Cable RVU box.

One box connected to your antenna or cable serving via DLNA on the Home's network or via MOCA (Media Over CAble) to all home devices from phones to Game Console. DTCP-IP is used to encrypt IPTV streams from a DLNA server in the home to the PS3 and other platforms. RVU is a standard which requires a slightly modified version of DLNA + DTCP-IP + HTML5 for the UI that is now accepted as part of DLNA. RVU (remote View) allows control of Cable box DVR boxes and streaming the content in the box or using the tuners for live play. Plans are to use DLNA for Tru2way, RVU with DVR box or cable box 2 way communication with a head end box that may just contain tuners and no recording ability and/or to support "clear" unencrypted cable and OTA RVU. Silicon dust has a tuner that can accept a cable card and serve DLNA-RVU for both OTA and Cable. Speculation is it should work with the PS3 now or soon with a PS3 DLNA upgrade.

Also coming this year is ATSC 2.0 which uses the blu-ray codec and allows for OTA 1080P, S3D and XTV support. The standards used for OTA ATSC 2.0 will be used on Cable. Key here is that most of the TVs we have will not be able to take advantage of OTA or Cable 1080P & S3D unless using a newer Cable box or under the new Head end RVU System for OTA and Cable and with a box that can process the blu-ray codec (1080P and S3D); a Game console can do this (PS3, PS4, Xbox 720). This is why the PS3 was chosen for the RVU/DLNA picture above.

In the first slide below Microsoft outlines the limitations of the Xbox 360 (No 1080P or 1080P S3D) and in a slide I didn't post mentions a Xbox 361 with HDMI pass-through and the ability to display 1080P/S3D to be released in 2012 as a temp filler for XTV until the Xbox 720 is released late 2013. The Xbox 361 was never released possibly because RVU/ATSC 2.0 was stalled till mid 2014.

Modern Smart TVs like Samsung with RVU support can do the above. If you press the input key on the Samsung TV remote all active Inputs including DLNA servers and RVU servers show up in the on-screen menu and of course the top end Smart TVs support 1080P and S3D.

Speculation part:

The Killer App for the PS3 and both the Xbox 720 and PS4 is to support the above (RVU and ATSC 2.0/XTV (planned since 2000* Important read!)). The PS4 and Xbox 720 should have very low power modes to allow always on and on when the TV is on to support this. Microsoft in their Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (4/2010) mentions a Google TV like feature supported by Sony and the same for Microsoft.

So rent a Set top box from your cable provider ($10/month), buy a Android set top box that supports RVU ($100) and if it supports RVU it generally has Google TV, or get a game console ($400). Key for Microsoft and Sony is a all in one box that is easier to use with more features than the competition.

I don't know if Microsoft is going to have SKUs with tuners and cable card slots but I'm sure both are going to support something like Google TV. Competition between Sony and Microsoft as well as between both game consoles and cheaper Android boxes is going to mean more features to attract buyers which is good for us. Skype is one of those features.

And I could be wrong in my guess and Microsoft could be wrong in their speculation in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint that Sony was going to support something like Google TV. If this is the case then the OP would be correct. The 4/2010 powerpoint is where these TV tuner/Google TV rumors originate.

XTV is also used/understood in different contexts; in the Xbox 720 powerpoint it's about Xtended TV Apps and what's coming with ATSC 2.0. Xtended TV can also describe Google TV features.

HDMI pass-through is only needed with a living room TV if the cable box does not support RVU.

Sony's Nanse is in Japan and it supports RVU. The RVU standard appears to be in multiple countries. It is not a US only standard. TV tuners and Cable cards on the other hand do have standards that differ which would cause a fragmentation and require MULTIPLE SKUs; TV Tuners and cable card in a "Gateway Device" or advanced Cable DVR box for each country separate from the Game console, side steps this issue.

“We are delighted to continue the expansion of the RVU Alliance membership,” said Henry Derovanessian, president of the RVU Alliance Board of Directors and senior vice president of Engineering, DIRECTV. “The Alliance now represents all levels of the industry eco-system with members in North America, Asia and Europe. We continue to see increased levels of interest in the technology as a light footprint, robust and simple to implement method for User Interface distribution to consumer electronics devices complying with the RVU specification.”

RVU is a client/server-based technology that allows the television viewer to experience a consistent, pixel accurate, server-generated user interface, on various consumer electronics devices. The RVU specification uses widely implemented UPnP and DLNA technologies to enable a gateway device such as an advanced set-top box to share its user interface with client devices including connected smart TVs, Blu-ray players, and tablets.

RVU offers benefits to service providers by making their viewing experience and features available to connected CE devices in a consistent manner, and consumers benefit from a consistent user experience throughout the home across all their CE devices. A full, independent certification program will be in place in the spring of 2011, followed shortly afterwards by market introduction of RVU devices based on the RVU 1.4 specification. The specification is in the process of further expansion to version 2.0 which will include support for High Definition graphics and other advanced graphics, and additional profiles to support different classes of client displays.

The RVU Alliance is a non-profit organization created to facilitate the adoption of the RVU specification. Membership of the RVU Alliance spans the industry, and includes broadcasters, CE manufacturers and technology partners in North America, Asia and Europe.

 

[Americanmushroom]

Y

Watch presents being opened, eat dinner on Thanksgiving etc. Kinect can even pan out and shrink the view based on how many people are in the view.

Lol

 

[Socky]

Re: TV functionality - I can see Microsoft not really caring about such options outside the US. It's their biggest market and I imagine if they made the TV element a success there it can only help the fortunes of Xbox3 elsewhere, even if the TV functionality is entirely missing.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Re: TV functionality - I can see Microsoft not really caring about such options outside the US. It's their biggest market and I imagine if they made the TV element a success there it can only help the fortunes of Xbox3 elsewhere, even if the TV functionality is entirely missing.

Sony's Nanse is in Japan and it supports RVU. The RVU standard appears to be in multiple countries. It is not a US only standard. TV tuners and Cable cards on the other hand do have standards that differ which would cause a fragmentation and require MULTIPLE SKUs; TV Tuners and cable card in a "Gateway Device" or advanced Cable DVR box for each country separate from the Game console, side steps this issue.

“We are delighted to continue the expansion of the RVU Alliance membership,” said Henry Derovanessian, president of the RVU Alliance Board of Directors and senior vice president of Engineering, DIRECTV. “The Alliance now represents all levels of the industry eco-system with members in North America, Asia and Europe. We continue to see increased levels of interest in the technology as a light footprint, robust and simple to implement method for User Interface distribution to consumer electronics devices complying with the RVU specification.”

RVU is a client/server-based technology that allows the television viewer to experience a consistent, pixel accurate, server-generated user interface, on various consumer electronics devices. The RVU specification uses widely implemented UPnP and DLNA technologies to enable a gateway device such as an advanced set-top box to share its user interface with client devices including connected smart TVs, Blu-ray players, and tablets.

RVU offers benefits to service providers by making their viewing experience and features available to connected CE devices in a consistent manner, and consumers benefit from a consistent user experience throughout the home across all their CE devices. A full, independent certification program will be in place in the spring of 2011, followed shortly afterwards by market introduction of RVU devices based on the RVU 1.4 specification. The specification is in the process of further expansion to version 2.0 which will include support for High Definition graphics and other advanced graphics, and additional profiles to support different classes of client displays.

The RVU Alliance is a non-profit organization created to facilitate the adoption of the RVU specification. Membership of the RVU Alliance spans the industry, and includes broadcasters, CE manufacturers and technology partners in North America, Asia and Europe.

 

[SMD]

If you've ever used a smart tv you'll know the features, ui, and all else generally suck. My Samsung smart tv ui , on an expensive 2012 model, looks like something from a knock Korean android tablet from 2010. The software on these sets truly sucks, and it's never updated/improved.

Skype on the Xbox is a big deal. Few people will buy an expensive console for Skype alone, but the feature will help pad sales

-edit-

Pachter is getting mistreated in this thread, per usual. This was probably the best op of the day with the most original and well thought out content, and it's dismissed as wrong because somebody who has has high profile controversial opinions before has said it. It's a shame

Err, no it's not. There are some glaring flaws in his context and expectations and people are pointing that out without referring to him and his track record at all.

 

[coldfoot]

With 20 million Live subscribers they get 1 billion a year. That's a lot of money to a) give to companies to get exclusive content to get even more subscribers and b) they have an incredible amount of users willing to pay that fee. That's pure gold for other subscription based companies, they get 20 million users who they know will play for services. On other platforms they get 80 million who they know nothing about.

Apple could not pull it off with $137B in the bank, Live profits are nothing compared to that.

 

[JohnsonUT]

If it has a tuner card, isn't that special/unique hardware? The ability to grab content without the carrier providing a (usually half baked) app would be a differentiator.

This may not even be true, but generally service providers have really shitty apps.

If it has a tuner card then, the service would not be IPTV .It would be a like a normal cable box, needing a cable or phone line to be run to it. This is possible but then things like
new subscribers out of area (as described in OP) would not be possible. This also would require many different variation of xbox depending on what cable providers the customer has access too.

I don't want to condemn Patcher, because I could be missing something in his explanation. But it is very strange that he mentions a tuner card and then explains IPTV. From what I know, the two are not at all related.

 

[iamaustrian]

If we were to assume that Microsoft would do all this. That the box could be a cable box, a TiVo box, a games console and a Skype machine. The console must be built flawlessly. If people are getting tv and phone deals through the Xbox as well as it being their only gaming machine, all it needs is for the next gen version of RROD and YLOD to rear it's ugly head and turn into a PR shit storm with people being stuck with basic channels.

That's actually the first thing I was thinking of after I read pachter's "vision".
I have seen friends gone through 5-7 xboxs in the last 5 years. Consoles seem to be more error-prone the more high-end they get.

 

[Takuya]

I'm not the kind of person having many family conversations, but I was thinking the living room couch was the best place to converse with your family over long distance (whether you need a TV for that is another matter...). Where else would you do that ?

In your office, or your room if you have a computer there.

 

[subversus]

I still use my phone for that

just find it wierd after all these years games don't seem matter anymore on a game console all about apps

I still use my phone for talking... sometimes.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Skype is easy to find on the TV: many smart TVS in the last few years had it built in. Likewise it's on damn near every other device imaginable, and there is no reason why it couldn't be used on the ps4, seeing as it's usable on the vita.

So I think we can safely take away that 'killer ap' from the Xbox.

As for the TV tuner? I just don't see MS as having the clout to get it. Cable already costs what, $60 by itself from most companies? I can't see them taking $100 for allowing xbox live full access, and giving up the control. not to mention, I don't see many xboxers willing to pay that much for live.

Toss in DVRs, hookups in multiple rooms, charges for this and that, and the aforementioned data caps, and well, I don't see this happening over all. Now, I can see them having access to certain cable networks (espn, hbo, etc) but all at additional fees on top of live, much like using netflix or amazon.

 

[Oppo]

Why are either killer apps?

Skype first--My detractors on this site (and there are many of them) are quick to point out that Skype is available on many devices, including just about any laptop with a built-in camera and any smart phone or tablet. What they miss is that Skype isn't generally available with a wide-angle camera lens, isn't generally available in the living room, and isn't generally very easy for grandma to use.

This is the part that I don't get. Those are all totally untrue. Like I don't even think its debatable.

ALL computer and device cameras are wide angle to some degree. They have to be. Being that several are portable devices, of course they are available in the living room. Some of them are in your pocket. And finally, I just dont' think MS is going to make an across-the-room zooming lens with a zero-touch interface easier to use than an iPad, which is practically a magic window you hold up to talk to. You still have to sign into Skype either way. Voice launch Skype, you say? Can do that on the other devices too.

I just had a facetime call last week with my family and noticed the "widescreen mode" which switched from portrait; was able to see everyone around the table comfortably. Kinect will have to zoom and pan around several living room setups.

Just can't see it.

Won't touch the cable stuff, as the US situation is convoluted, even moreso than Canada. It is an interesting theory. Although, it strikes me as a bit of a pyrrhic victory on MS' part for myself, as a game fan and cable cutter.

 

[kaching]

Why is that a killer app? Because if you're a 16 year-old living at home, it's an easy hook to sell your parents on the next generation Xbox by convincing them that the entire family can call grandma every night and say goodnight. I think it's even a compelling reason to buy a console for grandma, so she can video chat with her grandkids, and it conveniently gives the 16 year-old something to do when he's forced to visit grandma.

This sounds so contrived. Nightly calls with grandma? This is best rationale you can come up with to justify Skype as a killer app? What portion of the market do you really think this scenario applies to?

 

[jeff_rigby]

This sounds so contrived. Nightly calls with grandma? This is best rationale you can come up with to justify Skype as a killer app? What portion of the market do you really think this scenario applies to?

How many of you have a land line phone or Vonage (IP Phone) in addition to a iPhone or Android phone? Why? Some of the reasons apply to a central/living room always on PS4 or Xbox 720 unless everyone has a cell phone including all children. Personally I'm looking forward to moving from Vonage $39 total with $12 of that taxes to Skype and Free (taxes already paid once on the cable bill and with IP Phone you pay taxes twice for the same access).

Incoming Skype call can be transferred to a iPhone or Android tablet.

 

[gcubed]

How many of you have a land line phone or Vonage (IP Phone) in addition to a iPhone or Android phone? Why? Some of the reasons apply to a central/living room always on PS4 or Xbox 720 unless everyone has a cell phone including all children. Personally I'm looking forward to moving from Vonage $39 total with $12 of that taxes to Skype and Free (taxes already paid once on the cable bill and with IP Phone you pay taxes twice for the same access).

Incoming Skype call can be transferred to a iPhone or Android tablet.

you just shift the costs to your electric bill then.

and while your good and finding random technology standards you don't real base it in any reality. ATSC 2.0 won't be even BEGUN to roll out until at the earliest, next console generation

 

[mrklaw]

smart TVs have skype built in. Grandma isn't going to buy an xbox and set up kinect and get broadband sorted - assuming you're going to be tech support, just buy her an ipad (or a smart TV and set it up for her)

TV - on demand convergence will come - you can already bing across Xbox media services I think. But those are all mostly horizontal services too, and I'd expect to be able to voice search across netflix/hulu etc on Playstation 4 too.

Playstation 3 also has TV tuners for digital terrestrial in Europe and Japan, yet that isn't being called out as a gamechanger.


So this comes ultimately down to a bunch of what-ifs, most of which are already being done elsewhere anyway.

I don't buy it unless MS shows some amazing way that ondemand and linear broadcast (and kinect) is integrated into your living room in a way you can't live without. Google TV tried and mostly failed (IMO becuase they focused too much on internet and search) and I think it still is an opporunity space. so lets see what MS comes up with.

 

[J-Rod]

I just can't see grandma buying an Xbox or finding it any easier to operate than an iPad which is hard enough for her already. Grandsons will be getting a lot of calls, but it's going to be over a regular phone and the conversations are going to be about how to get the television working again.

 

[jeff_rigby]

you just shift the costs to your electric bill then.

and while your good and finding random technology standards you don't real base it in any reality. ATSC 2.0 won't be even BEGUN to roll out until at the earliest, next console generation

The PS4 and Xbox 720 have a Low power ARM subsystem.

ATSC 2.0 is already partially authorized and 100% candidate status this year. Rollout/acceptance for XTV is starting now with second screen and some commercials and shows announcing with text in the commercials "more information here". Non Realtime transmission has already started in several markets; in Tampa we have several Pay TV streams on channel 13-9 OTA that can't be accessed by a standard TV.

I believe this year will see OTA TV tuners in some tablets and handhelds and that is the already released Mobile part of ATSC 2.0 and the link goes over Lessons learned in implementing Mobile TV on Fox stations (116 on air).

ATSC 2.0 work on track

Taking the TV experience to a new level is the objective of ATSC 2.0, an effort that will introduce a number of enhanced features based on newly-developed standards and the focused application of existing standards. Work on ATSC 2.0, which has been under way since last year, includes a suite of new services, including non-real-time transmission, Internet-related enhancements, 3D TV broadcasting, and advanced video compression.

With the recent approval of the Non-Real-Time (NRT) Standard and complex issues related to triggers resolved, TG1 will be busy buttoning up the detailed documentation for the ATSC 2.0 Candidate Standard including the marriage of linear broadcast content, file delivery and Internet connectivity.

How complex will it be for broadcasters and CE manufacturers to implement the ATSC 2.0 standards? Is backwards compatibility important with ATSC 1.0?

Richer: Most of the broadcast equipment is already on the market and should be widely available to broadcasters. Implementation complexity will depend to some extent on the specific services and content provided by broadcasters, of course. And yes, backwards compatibility is a requirement of ATSC 2.0. Consumer electronics manufacturers have been actively engaged in the ATSC 2.0 process, so early planning on implementation of some of the new TV features is likely already underway.

 

[Jezbollah]

I have little faith that both Skype and TV Tuners integrated into the next Xbox will do much.

Well, it may for those who dont have it - but we already have TV tuners in most housholds, and if we're looking at the new generation of consoles having a lifespan of the same as the current gen, then most new TVs now are Smart TV enabled and have integrated webcams and Skype integration.

With regards to TV tuner inclusion - again - I have my set top box - regulation-wise has MS thought about the amount of standards, providers, broadcast regulations for all their countries they are aiming at selling the new Xbox for? We have seen TV tuners rumored in a number of consoles (remember the PSX?) and it never happened.

I continue to wonder if Microsoft's focus on trying to get the Xbox do everything that most people already have devices for will be to their detriment. Personally, I just want a nice, powerful games console - and from what Sony have released regarding the PS4, I see that satisfying a lot of people's requirements from what they really look in their next console investment.

 

[Thrakier]

The only thing Skype is a killer app for is your computers performance. My vents are always running full force when Skype is activated.

 

[gcubed]

The PS4 and Xbox 720 have a Low power ARM subsystem.

ATSC 2.0 is already partially authorized and 100% candidate status this year. Rollout/acceptance for XTV is starting now with second screen and some commercials and shows announcing with text in the commercials "more information here". Non Realtime transmission has already started in several markets; in Tampa we have several Pay TV streams on channel 13-9 OTA that can't be accessed by a standard TV.

I believe this year will see OTA TV tuners in some tablets and handhelds and that is the already released Mobile part of ATSC 2.0 and the link goes over Lessons learned in implementing Mobile TV on Fox stations (116 on air).

ATSC 2.0 work on track

you're still talking minimum 5 years before its in any form available to a large group of people. You can't access pay TV streams OTA because they are encrypted, not because they are ATSC 2.0.

 

[RPGCrazied]

I already have skype on like 4 different devices, I really don't need it on a gaming console.

 

[btkadams]

i just can't comprehend how someone could think skype is a killer app. unless it does something incredible that the regular skype doesn't do, why would grandma want to buy an expensive console for it? my grandma has an ipad and a computer. she already skypes on her ipad and her computer. i know this is just anecdotal drivel, but it just makes zero sense for me. who would want to skype on their tv with a camera far away from them? i suppose it could have some cool face-detection with an autozoom so the person sees only your face rather than the entire room, but that once again seems kind of gimmicky.

the tv tuner is definitely up in the air for me. it could be something that is truly amazing or it could be a waste of time.

 

[TheExodu5]

As a Canadian, the media incentives are incredibly unappealing.

Microsoft continues to invest in ways to improve their services for Americans, while the rest of the world gets the shaft.

 

[j0hnny_385]

As a Canadian, the media incentives are incredibly unappealing.

Microsoft continues to invest in ways to improve their services for Americans, while the rest of the world gets the shaft.

^ this. That's why I won't even go into these kinds of "non gaming" discussions since 90% of "killer apps" and "features" are US only. *shrug*
We've yet to see why was Phil Harrison brought to MS. Nothing changed in Europe in regards to X360 marketing and push to more countries.
The optimist in me says that we'll see improvement in NextBox.
The realist says little to nothing will change. *sigh*

 

[John_B]

Microsoft wants to take on Wii U, Playstation, Google's TV platform and whatever Apple has been developing over the past 5 years.

It seems the Xbox will have a tough time winning any of the multiple battles it's heading towards.

 

[Bisnic]

The only thing Skype is a killer app for is your computers performance. My vents are always running full force when Skype is activated.

I think something might be wrong with your computer. My computer is as quiet as it can be, whether or not Skype is running.

 

[meta4]

This sounds so contrived. Nightly calls with grandma? This is best rationale you can come up with to justify Skype as a killer app? What portion of the market do you really think this scenario applies to?

Most of the world console market according to Pachter.

 

[flatearthpandas]

I think there are a LOT of you that need to read Michaels post more thoroughly.

He's not saying Grandma's will line up for Skype on Xbox.

He's saying that kids will use things like Skype and TV to convince their families to buy the new Xbox. World of difference there.

So what you're saying is that it will be a killer app because 16-year-olds will have an easier time convincing mom and dad to buy two Durangos so that grammy can Skype with them than he would convincing them to buy him just the one PS4?

Or are you saying he would only need to convince them to buy one Durango for him, with the selling point being they can talk to grams on her Skype device using it? But then, if grams doesn't need a Durango because she already has a Skype-accessible device, odds are the family already has one too and couldn't give a fuck whether the new Xbox has one or not.

For more information on why Skype videochatting will probably never be a killer app, see Infinite Jest.


As for TV implementation, I could legitimately see that being a killer app. I don't see it happening because I think our current cable providers are way too greedy to allow it to happen, but if Microsoft could get a service provider on board, I could see it being a pretty big deal.

As a personal example, I use DirectTV. My girlfriend loves her some TV and I hate me some Comcast so satellite seemed like a decent compromise. I'm ambivalent on Microsoft and the Xbox, but if I could get a cheaper Durango subsidized by DirectTV payments I was already going to have to make anyway, I would be much more likely to buy one. But I'm just one guy with very little knowledge of the current American TV climate. We'll see.

 

[jeff_rigby]

you're still talking minimum 5 years before its in any form available to a large group of people. You can't access pay TV streams OTA because they are encrypted, not because they are ATSC 2.0.

Wow, just read a few of your latest posts, we are so different in our world views. It's ATSC 2.0 Non-Realtime Transmission AND encrypted. Read before posting, you are in fact doing what you accuse me of doing. Microsoft and Sony have been planning for this since before 2000. Read the first two links in the following paragraph, these points are what you disagree with but don't know the context.

The Killer App for the PS3 and both the Xbox 720 and PS4 is to support the above (RVU and ATSC 2.0/XTV (planned since 2000* Important read!)). The PS4 and Xbox 720 should have very low power modes to allow always on and on when the TV is on to support this. Microsoft in their Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (4/2010) mentions a Google TV like feature supported by Sony and the same for Microsoft.

The alliance - comprising of among others Microsoft, Intel, Disney, NBC, Cablelabs, DirecTV, Sony and Warner Bros – defined protocols for HTML-based television, which allow content creators to deliver enhanced programming over all forms of transport (analogue, digital, cable, MMDS, and satellite) to any intelligent receivers. The ATVEF group has created a specification, called Advanced Television Enhancement Forum pecifications for Interactive Television 1.1. It describes guidelines for developing content and distributing to a variety of access devices, among them digital set-top boxes.

In the 2001 paper I cite is the above and descriptions of DLNA and Gateway device and Media server and more all of which are going to show up generation 8. It's not about games it's about gaining control of the living room and making money. Most of the moves by Sony and Microsoft in the last decade have been for this generation game consoles including buying Movie studios.....Notice who besides Sony and Microsoft are part of the Alliance (movie studios).

Patcher has it mostly right I just believe both Sony and Microsoft are planning a similar IPTV strategy. The winner will be the one who does it better. Sony bought a movie studio and Microsoft purchased Skype...both think they have a plan to capture the living room.

 

[AgentP]

In what world do teenagers want to video chat with grandma?

 

[gcubed]

Wow, just read a few of your latest posts, we are so different in our world views. It's ATSC 2.0 Non-Realtime Transmission AND encrypted. Read before posting, you are in fact doing what you accuse me of doing. Microsoft and Sony have been planning for this since before 2000. Read the first two links in the following paragraph, these points are what you disagree with but don't know the context.

i work for a cable company. My comments are coming from the "use your device as a set top with an existing cable subscription". We are talking past each other. FIOS and Direct/Dish use h.264 as broadcast. Comcast uses it only for web/ip streaming (no live streaming via IP... as of today). With an actual tuner? A traditional cable company won't move to it for a long time. Sure, MS or Sony can create their own if "service" if they want to go down that route, but that's not being discussed here, it's them hooking up with others.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic as well. As my previous point on this, there are numerous legal hurdles for a company such as Comcast or TWC to stream live TV wherever they want. Copyright laws in the US are still stuck in the 70s

 

[jeff_rigby]

i work for a cable company. My comments are coming from the "use your device as a set top with an existing cable subscription". We are talking past each other. FIOS and Direct/Dish use h.264 as broadcast. Comcast uses it only for web/ip streaming (no live streaming via IP... as of today). With an actual tuner? A traditional cable company won't move to it for a long time. Sure, MS or Sony can create their own if "service" if they want to go down that route, but that's not being discussed here, it's them hooking up with others.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic as well. As my previous point on this, there are numerous legal hurdles for a company such as Comcast or TWC to stream live TV wherever they want. Copyright laws in the US are still stuck in the 70s

Good post, it brings information to the thread.

I was talking OTA which the FCC regulates with guidelines much tighter than cable. The Tampa OTA 13-9 stream contains multiple NRT streams I was able to see Names only using a Samsung TV with out of date Firmware and it went on line at the end of 2012 just after NRT became authorized. Houston is another city where a station is using NRT. Mobile DTV is also adopting NRT for a number of services.

My understanding was FIOS and Direct/Dish were able to move to h.264 because their S/N ratio was higher so less packet corruption; with higher compression (h.264) a corrupted packet impacts the picture more. Also with RVU (gateway device has the cable card) the h.264 codec is not being used by cable until the RVU client decodes the packets. If the client is a RVU enabled blu-ray player then the codec is already part of it's software stack and already purchased; PS3, PS4 and Xbox 720 will be RVU enabled blu-ray players also. The other part of the DRM legal issues, I.E. DVR recording and protecting content with a no-copy flag and a erase after so many days flag will be part of the OS features and already in the PS3.

Note: My understanding from talking to Cable TV techs (Comcast and Verizon) is that they have already attended classes and RVU is going to be enabled soon. Multiple cities have already transitioned but the big push to support RVU is coming this year. Devices are being tested to see if they comply with RVU standards including the PS3 late last year. The Comcast techs mentioned that upgrades to support DOSCIS 3.0 also include upgrades that impact the S/N ratio (All amplifiers in the copper part of the infrastructure are being upgraded, Comcast is part fiber-optic and part Copper). The difference between Fios and Comcast is Verizon Fios is fiber-optic to the house and Comcast only uses Fiber-optic for their major trunk lines. In any case the new Comcast amplifiers provide a higher S/N ratio that allows h.264.

Currently Comcast is telling all their customers in my area that analog channels will disappear next month and they are now advertising the availability of higher data rate Internet access (DOSCIS 3). Next step is offering RVU gateway devices. RVU gateway devices have multiple tuners and cable card. FYI the output of the tuner/IC is an out of order IPTV stream nearly identical to Internet packets. The RVU server serves via the DLNA standard IPTV packets encrypted if needed by DTCP-IP and also provides a Menu (bit-mapped or Vector Graphics commands (XHTML?)) to control the RVU server to support DVR and other functionality. (Part of the Alliance vision in message #436 above.) Sony developed DLNA but Microsoft is part of the founding members of the DLNA committee.

As of June 2011, there are 26 promoter members and 199 contributor members. The promoter members are:[10]

ACCESS, AT&T Labs, Awox,[11] Broadcom, CableLabs, Cisco Systems, Comcast, DIRECTV, Dolby Laboratories, DTS, Ericsson, Google, Hewlett-Packard, HTC, Huawei, Intel, LG Electronics, Microsoft, Nokia, Panasonic, Qualcomm, Samsung Electronics, Sony Electronics, Technicolor, and Verizon.

Apple is not a member. Apple uses its own Digital Audio Access Protocol instead of DLNA's UPnP protocols.

Comcast, Version and CableLabs being involved with DLNA is for RVU. Microsoft and Sony are part of the Alliance with the decades long IPTV vision.

As far as the consumer is concerned the transition to features in ATSC 2.0 on cable will be transparent to them with a Cable supplied RVU client or if they buy a newer Sony Blu-ray player or newer Smart TV or a PS4, PS3 or Xbox 720. The consumer has no choice in this as the cable companies will require either their cable box or a RVU client and all RVU clients support h.264 and I believe all will have or eventually have a HTML5 browser to support XTV.

OTA is another story, transition to ATSC 2.0 OTA requires a smart TV or a RVU server enabled Network Tuner (Sony Nanse, Silicon Dust) and RVU set top box which can be part of the list above. Converting the Digital RF signal to IPTV packets served via a home network can make the OTA RVU more reliable if the RVU server is located closer to the OTA antenna especially since most OTA signals are using UHF for the smaller antenna needed. OTA ATSC 2.0 acceptance is going to be slower than the forced RVU cable transition. Possible perks like including DVR in the RVU server (Sony Nance) might make acceptance faster.

I was delighted to see you bring up the standby power needed by an always on Skype phone; "you just shift the costs to your electric bill then. " That shows a deeper thought on the power issues facing a set top box that is always on to support Skype calls and always on when the set is on IPTV (XTV/Google TV). The difference in thinking here is the context. From the cites I've posted and the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint the features I mention require Low Power modes and in fact low power modes are mentioned in the Leaked Xbox 720 document as well as the System GPU running at 300 Mhz while the Application/Game GPU runs at 1 Ghz. Why is there a second system GPU; to support a low power GPU accelerated HTML5 UI and/or browser. Context difference is I know from the cites that both Sony and Microsoft have planned to support a vision of IPTV since before 2000 that is similar to Google TV but with the added features mentioned in the 2001 paper.

So I started stating that Power use should be part of any speculation on next generation designs. Few understood or adopted the same view. In the course of speculating on Next generation designs I thought APU (low power) + GPU (performance high power) was the target since it allowed a older than 2014 GPU without context switching and satisfied the low power (10-15 watts in IPTV mode) but with the Feb 20th Sony meeting that released GPU specs and subsequent leaked information, the GPU is at least in part a 2014 design and ONLY one high power GPU. Something else must be used for the low power GPU. There is an ARM CPU for Trustzone and that requires support for a ARM device including buss and MMU/memory access. It would be easy to use a ARM Mali GPU since the support is already there. Sony has a patent to support low power GPU - High power GPU context switching and the only use case I can imaging is for the PS4 and Xbox 720 Low power XTV/Google TV HTML5 UI and browser.

 

[mediapulp_wes]

Watch presents being opened

Put that in the adverts and I bet you'd shift some units. That alone might be enough for Grandma to buy one.

 

[Evoga]

I was told that Microsoft were in talks with BT with regards to multicast via fttc and fttp.

 

[border]

I wish Pachter would post in this thread like in the one about Nintendo's hardware business.

It seems unclear to me why he would expect ISPs to back off on bandwidth caps, when they've only tried to leverage those caps harder. For instance, Comcast's internet-based XFinity OnDemand services do not count against your bandwidth cap, whereas content from Netflix and Hulu do. They've already positioned themselves firmly against competitors in the OnDemand space.....why would they want to encourage more?

Yes, if every ISP eliminates caps then it would be a level playing field and they'd all potentially have access to a lot more households, but it seems like nobody wants a level playing field.

 

[j0hnny_385]

For instance, Comcast's internet-based XFinity OnDemand services do not count against your bandwidth cap, whereas content from Netflix and Hulu do.

Reading stuff like this makes me cringe. Your FCC should be turned inside and out for allowing this discrimination. Net Neutrality must hold and stuff like this needs to stop, ffs. :/

 

[border]

Reading stuff like this makes me cringe. Your FCC should be turned inside and out for allowing this discrimination. Net Neutrality must hold and stuff like this needs to stop, ffs. :/

I don't approve of what Comcast does, but I gotta admit that it's an brilliant evil-genius method to work around the net neutrality issue. All proposed legislation about net neutrality assumed that ISPs would try to slow down access to 3rd party streaming services. Nobody ever assumed that ISPs would set a data cap and then give themselves preferential treatment. Even if Comcast cannot get away with throttling data speed for Netflix and Hulu, they still found a way to give their own service preference.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't approve of what Comcast does, but I gotta admit that it's an brilliant evil-genius method to work around the net neutrality issue. All proposed legislation about net neutrality assumed that ISPs would try to slow down access to 3rd party streaming services. Nobody ever assumed that ISPs would set a data cap and then give themselves preferential treatment. Even if Comcast cannot get away with throttling data speed for Netflix and Hulu, they still found a way to give their own service preference.

Comcast was threatened with legal action and for the last few months there is no data cap "till further notice".

 

[madmackem]

I was told that Microsoft were in talks with BT with regards to multicast via fttc and fttp.

Bt have youview and have just wrapped up a deal for espns rights on sports over here so i could see that. Ms also has sky on 360 currently im not sure either will allow ms to fully act as a full box though.

 

[Asimov]

I have a question for Skype users:

If I have a Skype subscription, unlimited calls to landlines... can I share the subscription with my wife, so we both can call to landlines on each of our phones?

 

[Limanima]

It's not the 1990s any longer.

Yeah, unfortunately.

 

[jeff_rigby]

FCC to Force all Cable TV Providers to Stream HD With "Open" Standard by 2014

Was supposed to go into effect Dec 2012 but was delayed by TiVo.

The U.S. Federal Communications Commission -- upset that cable television providers (CTPs) did not allow streaming of HD video via secured connections like the Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) standard -- in 2010 decided to force the issue proposing an order to force CTPs to stream.

The new set of rules, set to be made mandatory by June 2, 2014, also clarifies what capabilities are expected of the HD streams:

recordable high-definition video
closed captioning data
service discovery
video transport
remote control command pass-through

DLNA Premium Video Profile, an HD-compliant version of the secure-streaming standard set to be ratified in 2013, was suggested as one possible option for cable companies.

Looks like the RVU additions to DLNA recently adopted are the standard. Xtended TV is coming to OTA with ATSC 2.0 in the US this year and those standards should make their way into cable.

So DVR ability with an always on Xbox 720 or PS4 is a given right?

The previous post had A EU paper on standby power mode and exceptions. it applies to the PS4 and Xbox 720. The always on mode for the Xbox and PS4 is not required to be 500mw, read the exceptions and use cases. One has a game console able to turn on a Blu-ray player and control as well as play the blu-ray in the player; RVU should allow such a use case.

 

[Turok_TTZ]

was pachter on to the xbone or am I reading this wrong?

 

[madmackem]

was pachter on to the xbone or am I reading this wrong?

He said it would have a tv tuner it hasnt.