Support NeoGAF

[Grettir_the_Swole]

The biggest reason I've seen is there are far too many characters with plot lines that either go nowhere or are inconsequential to the overarching plot. This is my biggest beef with the game, even though I like it.

I can agree with that. But I felt the same way with Suikoden II. In both cases, I was only frustrated with both games when I took the completionist's route. The characters with fleshed out stories were well worth the investment and Cross' OST and design were incredible. Some of my favorite and most memorable level designs from a Square PS1 era RPG.

 

[Deadpool_X]

I bought Cross on launch day, played it, got frustrated it wasn't tying into Trigger by half-way through the 1st disc and quit. I bashed it, telling everyone how bad it was and how let down I'd been by it. Trigger still my favorite RPG to this day, so I wasn't pleased

Then, a few years later, I was in a gaming slump, so I decided to finally give it another shot. I decided to play it as it's own entity. What I discovered that time, though, was the genius of the game. I fell in love and started seeing the connections to it's predecessor. I finally understood. To this day, I think people judge Chrono Cross on what they thought it should be instead of what it is.

 

[Korigama]

You have to keep Guile. And makes his connections to Magus way more blatant.

Indeed, plus cutting the cast down to only 15 is excessive. Not too sure why Mel would need to be one of them, as I recall her being completely superfluous. Orlha being included, however, would make sense as a result of running into her in the main story regardless of what you do in respect to branching paths.

If I were to pare it down, the main party would probably look something like...

-Serge/Lynx
-Kid
-Leena
-Guile
-Razzly
-Harle
-Radius
-Karsh
-Glenn
-Zoah
-Marcy
-Viper
-Riddel
-Norris
-Sprigg
-Grobyc
-Fargo
-Nikki
-Miki
-Orlha
-Starky
-Janice

That last one being debatable, but does add variety and further justification for monster training being a thing. Managing to scale things down from 45 to 23 is pretty good I'd say, though. If I were to be generous, I could picture accounting for a couple more, with Luccia and Leah seeming like others that would make sense.

 

[Star Orpheus]

I remember wanting to try Cross but I read it basically rendered everything you did in Trigger pointless and I decided to skip it. I'm not even the biggest Trigger fan but I hate it when games do that.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I liked it. It blew me away at the time. If I had one complaint back then it was that I was very confused on what was going on in the plot.

 

[TDLink]

As pointed out multiple times in this thread, it's not that CT fans just wanted CT2. Cross goes out of its way to shit on every character/plot thread from CT that it touches upon. Oh, Chrono & co. went through an epic journey with tremendous sacrifices to save the world from Lavos? Well, 15 minutes after that game's happy ending, the garbage-tier mooks sweep in and murder all the present day cast and their families, while Lavos is revived as a fusion with Schala and Robo turns evil and exterminates humanity, despite spending centuries as a kind, selfless hero in CT. Oh, and the whole Magus arc with him understanding what happened to Zeal and searching for Schala? Now there's Guile, who's blatantly Magus, but entirely stripped of all connection to Schala/Zeal/everyone and instead a hollow husk of a character.

Imagine if The Last of Us 2 started off with Care Bears descending from the clouds and the infected dissolving into rainbows of Skittles, followed by Joel uppercutting Ellie literally into the sun and rocking out with Tess and the Fireflies. Maybe the game would have some great elements, but it would still be reviled as an absolute mockery of TLoU.

CC would have been a much better game -- for both CT fans and not -- if it didn't have anything to do with CT at all. It still has the problem of having too many poorly defined characters, of course, but the positives would outweigh the negatives.

All of this stuff is only brought to light incredibly late in the game so it's not like it's "starting off" that way at all. You have to already have committed 30+ hours to get to those revelations. And while I won't deny that some of it is dumb, I ultimately liked what they ended up doing (especially with Lucca and Kid).

Again though, none of this stuff makes CHRONO CROSS a bad game. It's all stuff that only has any sort of negative impact on you if you are coming into it with expectations from TRIGGER.

Also I have to point out, that Chrono Cross is all about ALTERNATE TIMELINES. Everything presented in Cross doesn't mean that those events are necessarily canon to Trigger. Trigger itself has over a dozen different possible endings. Cross merely goes in one direction with it.

I think letting anything in Cross have an effect on your view of Trigger is just the wrong way to look at it. And going into Cross with any expectations from Trigger is also wrong. View them both for what they are. Separate and unique and different games that are loosely connected.

 

[grfunkulus]

I hated the combat and the goofy ass characters.

Compared to what? The combat system was miles more innovative (and still worked) vs a lot of the by-the-numbers stuff that was coming out at the time. As much as I loved FFIX for its (more) coherent story and fully fleshed out characters, man was that battle system a relic even when it first came out.

 

[entremet]

I enjoyed it. I hate what they did with the story, though.

 

[Hesh]

Loved it when it came out. One of the very few JRPG's I actually beat myself instead of just watching my older brother or his friend play through it. I have fond memories of its battle system being engaging and fun from beginning to end, something I can't say for the overwhelming majority of JRPG's I've played since the battle system usually becomes boring and a chore by the end. I think I bought CC again on a PSN sale a year or two ago, I should give it another go on my Vita.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

I wouldn't know. Never got to play the damn thing!

(thanks Square/Sony EU or whoever is responsible for NOT bringing it over on PSN)

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Good game. Poor CT sequel.

 

[Dark_castle]

Indeed, plus cutting the cast down to only 15 is excessive. Not too sure why Mel would need to be one of them, as I recall her being completely superfluous. Orlha being included, however, would make sense as a result of running into her in the main story regardless of what you do in respect to branching paths.

If I were to pare it down, the main party would probably look something like...

-Serge/Lynx
-Kid
-Leena
-Guile
-Razzly
-Harle
-Radius
-Karsh
-Glenn
-Zoah
-Marcy
-Viper
-Riddel
-Norris
-Sprigg
-Grobyc
-Fargo
-Nikki
-Miki
-Orlha
-Starky
-Janice

That last one being debatable, but does add variety and further justification for monster training being a thing. Managing to scale things down from 45 to 23 is pretty good I'd say, though. If I were to be generous, I could picture accounting for a couple more, with Luccia and Leah seeming like others that would make sense.

Mistake. I meant to say Leah, not Mel.

 

[Korigama]

Mistake. I meant to say Leah, not Mel.

Ah, okay.

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

3. The CT cast are essentially punished for doing the right thing. This is a bitter pill for a lot of people to swallow. CT is about hope for and changing the future for the better. Overcoming fate and making a better world.

CC is about how actions can have unintended reactions. That there is a price to pay even for good intentions. How a single action can cause a million different reactions widespread and unseen.

If the CT cast hadn't interfered with the future, they'd have gone on to live long healthy lives. Not just them, but their children and their childrens children, etc etc. Their selfless actions to save a future they'd never naturally see ended up costing them their futures. It's a tonal shift and a harsh one that a lot of people still can't accept (check any of the other CC threads over the years here).

Although this is a cool idea, my main problem with it is that the whole theme behind Chrono Trigger (imo) is one of setting things right, as opposed to simply "messing" with time.
There's the implication that some unseen force is nudging the cast to step up and do the right thing. If anyone was messing with something, it was Lavos and the team were the ones putting things back the way they should be.

Dealing with the consequences with time travel is a great narrative theme, but I don't think it was needed in this case, personally.
As other users have said, it feels almost mean spirited and unnecessarily edgy, playing on the fact that Chrono Trigger is such a happy game and beloved by many.

I still think the game's stellar though.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Hardware limitation. It's way easier to make seamless battle transitions with on-screen enemies with complete static 2D background and sprites with minimal visual effects and simpler animations to worry about.

so should be again a game with 2D sprites instead of 3D chars

 

[Nicolada]

Even though most of the characters didn't have deep involvement with the plot, a large chunk of them still get at least one little moment that really gets at you. Like Skelly - he's just some random skeleton clown guy whose pieces you collect during your journey and there's nothing to really say about him, but I still love that one scene where he reunites with his worried blind grandma and they share a moment. It has nothing to do with anything but it's just so sweet. And there's lots of little moments like this like Draggy finding his mother's remains, Starky and Harle sharing a moment while she cries, Mojo becoming Mojoy, etc.

 

[Shinriji]

Let me be the first: Complete bullshit, nonsensical requirements for the true ending. The regular ending is weak as shit, and you have to make some convoluted element mixing at the last battle because reasons.

Two high profile RPG from that time did that: Chrono Cross and Valkyrie Profile.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I wouldn't know. Never got to play the damn thing!

(thanks Square/Sony EU or whoever is responsible for NOT bringing it over on PSN)

I regret importing it back in the day

waste of money

 

[Korigama]

Even though most of the characters didn't have deep involvement with the plot, a large chunk of them still get at least one little moment that really gets at you. Like Skelly - he's just some random skeleton clown guy whose pieces you collect during your journey and there's nothing to really say about him, but I still love that one scene where he reunites with his worried blind grandma and they share a moment. It has nothing to do with anything but it's just so sweet. And there's lots of little moments like this like Draggy finding his mother's remains, Starky and Harle sharing a moment while she cries, Mojo becoming Mojoy, etc.

True, these were definitely all things that stood out.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Too many inconsequential characters. The Suikoden games did a lot better with an even larger cast. And I didn't care for how the story was told. I've tried to replay it over the years but never get too far, I just wind up wanting to play Chrono Trigger or Xenogears again.

 

[Gardios]

Personally, my problems with Chrono Cross were:

1) Serge being a silent protagonist - While I don't have an inherent issue with silent characters Serge has such a defined backstory, character relationships and overall importance to the plot that it feels really odd that he's rendered mute unlike Chrono who was more or less a blank slate.

2) Exposition dumps out the ass and far too much information(about the story, character motivations, etc) is back loaded near the end of the game - I feel like it says a lot about Cross's storytelling when you only find out what the whole deal with Lynx(a major antagonist) about 5 minutes before fighting the final boss( whom, I might add the player only recently found out that they even existed) via a text dump from a ghost child. The way Cross paces its story is terrible and the game as a whole suffers for it.

3) Too many characters and little reason to bother with any of them - Putting aside the fact that most of Cross's cast has nothing to do with the main plot and as a result are completely pointless, from a gameplay standpoint the 3-person party(hell, 2-person since Serge can't be swapped out) really puts a damper on any desire to experiment outside maybe bringing in a character with "Pilfer" to snag unique drops of bosses. The Suikoden series handles the idea of a large cast of characters way better since not only do you have 5-person parties and army battles to better utilize your roster but a significant portion of the characters you recruit are NPCs and simply offer shops and help manage your base.

4) The battle system - I personally found Cross's battle system to be fairly underwhelming. Dual and Triple techs are so hard to come by that they may as well not exist, field effect/summoning is a massive pain to set-up, trap elements are way too situational to rely on, and outside of a few late game bosses I found it far too easy to simply brute force my way through the game.

 

[Cheerilee]

All of this stuff is only brought to light incredibly late in the game so it's not like it's "starting off" that way at all. You have to already have committed 30+ hours to get to those revelations. And while I won't deny that some of it is dumb, I ultimately liked what they ended up doing (especially with Lucca and Kid).

Again though, none of this stuff makes CHRONO CROSS a bad game. It's all stuff that only has any sort of negative impact on you if you are coming into it with expectations from TRIGGER.

The connection to Chrono Trigger is entirely on Chrono Cross though. The player isn't playing the game wrong by coming in with expectations that were established by Chrono Trigger. They called their game Chrono-something at a time when there was no standardized format for what a Chrono Trigger sequel should be called, they allowed their marketing teams to play up the Chrono Trigger connection, and if/when they were asked if Chrono Cross was a sequel to Chrono Trigger, they couldn't even say it wasn't a sequel to Chrono Trigger, because it is a sequel, and it references the events of Chrono Trigger (in an unflattering way). If the game is literally a sequel to Chrono Trigger, then it cannot be wrong for the player to come into it with expectations that have been set by Chrono Trigger.

And the massive delay before Chrono Cross gets around to being unflattering towards Chrono Trigger was another problem entirely.

Chrono Cross may have been a good game if it existed in a vacuum, but it was first and foremost a terrible sequel, seemingly made by people who had no clue about or respect for the rules and limitations that are inherent to anyone who tries to make a sequel. Being a sequel is a blessing, but it's also a curse, and it should be approached differently from the total freedom that comes with a new IP.

Chrono Cross should've done a much better job of being a Chrono Trigger sequel, or it should've stepped away from Chrono Trigger entirely.

Also I have to point out, that Chrono Cross is all about ALTERNATE TIMELINES. Everything presented in Cross doesn't mean that those events are necessarily canon to Trigger. Trigger itself has over a dozen different possible endings. Cross merely goes in one direction with it.

I think letting anything in Cross have an effect on your view of Trigger is just the wrong way to look at it. And going into Cross with any expectations from Trigger is also wrong. View them both for what they are. Separate and unique and different games that are loosely connected.

That's like asking people not to look at Richard Gere differently after you've heard about the gerbils. It might be a bald-faced lie, but once you hear it you can never un-hear it.

 

[Tarextherex]

The Trigger connections were actually the best parts, people complaining that the game "shit on their favorite game" are just spewing bad criticism that is about as valid as saying that FFVII sucks because cloud is emo or some shit

I liked Chrono Cross but it's definitely a league below CT and some FF games(notably 7/8/9). That is because the game's pacing is just not good enough. For it's fantastic art, music, and intriguing story, the game actually feels monotonous for the most part. For example Viper Manor the first time around is a very cool segment but the revisitings get pretty old fast. There's a certain huge mid game twist but it doesn't affect you too much, you're still going around the game's locations while following a very vague plot just like you would before the twist. Some of the game's many possible characters have cool quests/scenes tied to them, like Skelly and Draggy. However most of them feel like random collectibles, you get their level 7 tech by going in the opposite world in the location you found them, that's it. Speaking of which the game has a dual world mechanic but they feel just way too similar to each other. That leads into a very poor balance between harmonies and dissonances. Games like FFVI and CT did this much better. Hell there is less differences between Home and Another than there are between two different days in Zelda MM, that's how much the game's world shifting mechanic doesn't matter much.

It's basically a PS1 JRPG for better or worse really. Very inventive and original setting/mechanics/story, messy implementation. I expected to love this game more than say the "safer" FF9 because I value ambition and creativity a lot in games but sadly the execution didn't do it for me.

 

[sensui-tomo]

Although this is a cool idea, my main problem with it is that the whole theme behind Chrono Trigger (imo) is one of setting things right, as opposed to simply "messing" with time.
There's the implication that some unseen force is nudging the cast to step up and do the right thing. If anyone was messing with something, it was Lavos and the team were the ones putting things back the way they should be.

Dealing with the consequences with time travel is a great narrative theme, but I don't think it was needed in this case, personally.
As other users have said, it feels almost mean spirited and unnecessarily edgy, playing on the fact that Chrono Trigger is such a happy game and beloved by many.

I still think the game's stellar though.

Putting things right would mean humanity has to die and reptiles/dragons be the dominant species of the planet, lavos is why humans became dominant. This is a huge plot point in CC
But playing a game where you commit genocide on your race might not be fun.

 

[To Far Away Times]

The perfect sequel to a beloved game to be honest.

Chrono Cross stands on its own and has more than enough new ideas for its own original game, while tying back to Chrono Trigger. Plus the art style, music, and atmosphere and battle system are world class.

 

[Jencks]

Chrono Cross is a beautiful game. One of my favorites.

Also, I still believe Cross's and Xenogear's soundtrack are the greatest ever. Mitsuda is a god.

 

[Iadien]

One of my favorite games. Music is amazing, loved the combat system. Glenn with double einlanzer >

 

[johntown]

One of my favorite games of all time!

Everything about it is great! People who dislike it really need to give it another shot!

 

[Lothars]

Chrono Cross is a fantastic game and a worthy successor to Chrono Trigger. It is just a wonderful experience.

 

["D"]

A lot of the responses in this thread kinda makes me feel good about Cross. Out of all the games I've ever played, I dunno but when I seen folk talk bad about Cross it kinda gets to me a little...I mean I know people like what they like but just looking at the production and presentation that its dev team put out, for people to be like "ehh this shit wack, it ain't CT" and for that to be the only reason makes me feel kinda sorry for devs of other games that suffered this.

Put out a gem and spend all this time and effort into it, only to be bashed cause it ain't like the previous game....and even WORSE...whether it was Squaresoft deciding to move on or the team not getting the reception they wanted, they just....stopped making Chrono games.

And THAT shit right there is a fuckin travesty

 

[Innolis]

I'm not sure disliked is the word. It's still one of the highest rated games of the PSX era and regularly makes appearances on best JRPG of all time lists. It was a critical darling when it released too.

I never understood the vitriol it gets in some circles but the general concensus seems to be Trigger was a better game...w/e my unpopular opinion is that Cross is the better game in every possible way.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

I actually liked it but it didn't feel very chrono trigger

The already perfect combat was replaced with a more Final fantasy like random encounter system.

The Story and overall akira toriyama design was replaced by some generic fantasy rpg setting.

Music isn't even that memorable imo.


Those are just a few reasons why I think the game was disliked.

This is why something that is stated be so spectacularly wrong even as an opinion, it's factually wrong. That's how bad the statement in bold is.

 

[Star Orpheus]

[QUOTE="D";249239184]A lot of the responses in this thread kinda makes me feel good about Cross. Out of all the games I've ever played, I dunno but when I seen folk talk bad about Cross it kinda gets to me a little...I mean I know people like what they like but just looking at the production and presentation that its dev team put out, for people to be like "ehh this shit wack, it ain't CT" and for that to be the only reason makes me feel kinda sorry for devs of other games that suffered this.

Put out a gem and spend all this time and effort into it, only to be bashed cause it ain't like the previous game....and even WORSE...whether it was Squaresoft deciding to move on or the team not getting the reception they wanted, they just....stopped making Chrono games.

And THAT shit right there is a fuckin travesty[/QUOTE]

It seems that for the majority of people it's less that it isn't like Trigger and more about how the story treated Trigger.

 

[coiler]

Somehow Chrono Cross didn't stand up against FF, Suikoden, and Breath of Fire. Brave Fencer Musashi anyone ?

 

[emag]

Putting things right would mean humanity has to die and reptiles/dragons be the dominant species of the planet, lavos is why humans became dominant. This is a huge plot point in CC
But playing a game where you commit genocide on your race might not be fun.

Maybe Yoko Taro could handle a story like that, but Kato definitely could not.

CC was a faceplant of Zero Time Dilemma proportions.


[QUOTE="D";249239184]they just....stopped making Chrono games.

And THAT shit right there is a fuckin travesty[/QUOTE]

https://another-eden.jp/sp/

 

[Raging Spaniard]

For me personally:

-Story takes a massive shit on everything Chrono Trigger built, I dont want to see my favorite characters from CT handled like that.

-Really bad battle system. No focus on dual/triple techs, changing characters and moving abilities is such a pain that you dont want to change your party. Really poor battle music too, which is ironic seeing how its the best OST out there aside from that.

-Recruiting characters felt random and disorganized, like they wanted to copy Suikoden but didn't really know how

-Game is obviously unfinished. Many sources have covered that but the massive info dump right before the end of the game sticks out like a very sore thum

-In many ways it felt like a downgrade to CT. Less interesting battles, Time traveling is a better mechanic than Alternate Realities. CT was revolutionary when it came out, did new things for the genre while CC followed up on some Xenogears gameplay and tried to copy Suikoden. Very meh.

Would have liked it a lot better if they just remove all CT references and make it its own IP.

 

[JudgmentJay]

the game sucks

Well I'm convinced.

 

[dreamlongdead]

Chrono Cross left an indelible mark on me when I first played it about 15 years ago. I didn't even know what Chrono Trigger was, so I just judged Cross on its own merits. I loved it.

It is a highly flawed game, and this thread has done a great job at explaining why. I've become much older and experienced with gaming, and I recognize that Chrono Cross is far from the best RPG ever.

Despite its dated quality, Chrono Cross is personally unforgettable. That OST is legendary and it will never age like other aspects of the game.

 

[Cheerilee]

It seems that for the majority of people it's less that it isn't like Trigger and more about how the story treated Trigger.

And in my case (and I'm sure many others), the game was sold to me as "Chrono Trigger 2".

I absolutely had the right to say "ehh this shit wack, it ain't CT" after investing countless hours into the game and still seeing nothing in the game that even remotely resembled what I was advertised.

 

[Madame M]

Chrono Cross was pretty good but it would have been much better if they had reduced the playable cast by about half and then made the remaining characters more unique in battle with more dual and triple techs.

 

[bluexy]

I loved Chrono Cross. One of my favorite JRPGs. The story is, unfortunately, a bit incoherent like others have mentioned, and yeah there were way too many characters. I really can't remember more than 4 or 5. I really enjoyed the combat system, adored Serge, Kid, and Lynx, the dragons, and the exploration. And that soundtrack... wowee.

It really does come down to the story though, when it comes to Chrono Cross' legacy. It's just too non-traditional and difficult to describe. Chrono Trigger was complex, but it was very much the hero's journey. I wouldn't have it any other way, but that's why it'll always be in Trigger's shadow.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

It plays like a completely different game - could easily have been unrelated to Trigger. I could care less about many of the characters and plotlines that it had too. Gorgeous music and graphics tho.

And now for the most controversial comparison: Chrono Trigger is to Avatar: TLA as to Chrono Cross is to Legend of Korra.

 

[Korigama]

It plays like a completely different game - could easily have been unrelated to Trigger. I could care less about many of the characters and plotlines that it had too. Gorgeous music and graphics tho.

And now for the most controversial comparison: Chrono Trigger is to Avatar: TLA as to Chrono Cross is to Legend of Korra.

I dunno, that earlier Zero Time Dilemma comparison seems like the most incendiary so far (akin to comparing it to Terminator 3 or Alien 3).

 

[SoulUnison]

The combat system isn't that great, and the battle theme you hear for 90% of the game is *awful* - I truly couldn't stand hearing it any longer. A truly bizarre composition in a game that generally has outstanding music.

 

[Nicolada]

And now for the most controversial comparison: Chrono Trigger is to Avatar: TLA as to Chrono Cross is to Legend of Korra.

That would mean Cross is both better and worse than Trigger at the same time.

 

[Labombadog]

I bought Cross on launch day, played it, got frustrated it wasn't tying into Trigger by half-way through the 1st disc and quit. I bashed it, telling everyone how bad it was and how let down I'd been by it. Trigger still my favorite RPG to this day, so I wasn't pleased

Then, a few years later, I was in a gaming slump, so I decided to finally give it another shot. I decided to play it as it's own entity. What I discovered that time, though, was the genius of the game. I fell in love and started seeing the connections to it's predecessor. I finally understood. To this day, I think people judge Chrono Cross on what they thought it should be instead of what it is.

I went through the exact same thing except I beat it on my first go and still didn't quite like it. Replayed it a couple years after and fell in love with it. Still love the game. I don't get the hate tbh.

 

[Fou-Lu]

That would mean Cross is both better and worse than Trigger at the same time.

Which is the truth.

 

[yeb]

I'm always surprised by the people that say things like "it was a good game, just not a good sequel to CT." I've always felt the opposite; it seemed like Chrono/Square were the best things it had going for it, and on its own, it may have been more of a Legend of Dragoon-style flop. The cast was painfully bad, the story was convoluted, and the battle system just seemed poorly designed.

I'm actually a bit curious about the battle system, though. I might not have explored it enough when I was younger, so maybe a fan could shed some light on it. From what I remember:
- 7 points of physical attacks gave 7 points of stamina to both other characters, and filled that character's element levels.
- Casting spells cost 7 points of stamina (potentially putting you negative), however many element levels you used, and restored 1 to your other characters.

My understanding/approach to it was that, as long as you rotated between strong physical attackers, you were always ready to respond to what a boss did and heal up. Using spells offensively was far more risky, as it would potentially leave a character unable to provide healing for several turns and leave you vulnerable.

Basically, it's one of the only battle systems I've played where attack-attack-heal actually seemed like a good strategy. There were only one or two battles where that didn't work, and one was only because of a required party member who was too squishy for such a defensive strategy.

 

[Joei]

The OST is god-like. I also enjoyed the battle system and that was the only reason I think they had so many characters, to help flesh out the battle system. But the character development is absolute trash. I see nothing wrong with a cast this big (Suikoden series handles a large cast very well), but aside from their use in the battle system, few are developed and seem to just be "there."

And the story telling is atrocious and unforgivable. There is little to no story development through much of the game and then there is a massive text-dump at the end where all the plot is tied up and explained.

 

[pillowtalk]

The story was confusing, but everything else I really liked.