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Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto

ozfunghi

Member
LOL. Hitting right at 256MB would be more than double what PS3 started at.



Yeah that's pretty out there. But I would hope they would increase the amount to 2GB if the OS were around that amount.

*sob*

yeah, Ideaman basically confirmed to me a couple pages back that the amount of OS reserved RAM was at least 512 MB.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36657871&postcount=15078

---------------------

HAS THIS BEEN POSTED??

http://www.zeldainformer.com/2012/0...a-blow-out-reveals-new-wii-u-information.html

Aliens Colonial Marines Media Blow-Out Reveals New Wii U Information; More RAM, The Controller, & Next-Gen Lighting
 
Excellent question and one I can somewhat answer for you.

Sound in Video Games is just so incredibly random. It cannot be scripted down to every single instance etc. The Players actions in a game generate the sound you hear and as the player has the freedom to do generally whatever they want usually it means sound cannot just be prepackaged loop.

Run down the street in karkand shooting a machine gun. The Game has to process foot steps, gun fire, impact sounds on cement, asphalt, glass etc. In reality Sound is deceptively complex. Obviously some games can be designed in such a way that makes it easier but generally it can take alot of processing power especially for high quality sound.

Also, like someone else pointed out before: The exact moment that the sound is "OFF" (wrong key, late-early, glitched, missing effects) people notice. We're much less forgiving when it comes to the sound not working as oposed to graphical hitches. Imagine an explosion going off in a game. The sound works but the graphical effects miss the smoke, or look pixelated. Now imagine the same scene where the sound effect is only a fifth of a second off. Which one is more irritating?

Just listen to a music track you like and there is just the slightest delay due to a playback issue.
It is immensely irritating, even if you didn't listen to it actively (while working on a paper for example).

*sob*

yeah, Ideaman basically confirmed to me a couple pages back that the amount of OS reserved RAM was at least 512 MB.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36657871&postcount=15078

Which shouldn't come as a surprise, given that they've shown plans to have quite an extensive featureset for the OS with browsing and different Apps. I believe games like WiiFit will be OS apps that run within the memory footprint of the OS.

If we speculate that the WiiU has 1.5GB RAM total, 0.5 of those are reserved for the OS, and the OS itself would take 200MB effectively, you'd still be left with a theoretical 300MB to run WiiFit, which at least in it's basic form (weight measurement and balance tests) would be more than enough.

Personally I'd expect more than 1.5 GB RAM, but the safest asumption is 1.5GB as of now. That would leave 1 GB dedicated RAM for Games. Nothing fancy, but it should do for what Nintendo wants to get out of the WiiU.

HAS THIS BEEN POSTED??

http://www.zeldainformer.com/2012/0...a-blow-out-reveals-new-wii-u-information.html

Aliens Colonial Marines Media Blow-Out Reveals New Wii U Information; More RAM, The Controller, & Next-Gen Lighting
Yeah, and It has been spun so much that it basically confirms sub Dreamcast performance for some people again.
 

ozfunghi

Member
Yeah, and It has been spun so much that it basically confirms sub Dreamcast performance for some people again.

Yeah, i meant the part with what appears to be (to me) a new quote about next-gen lighting... but after reading it, he's talking about ALL the consoles (also PS360):

You want the most realistic lighting possible, but machines are slow and only have so much computational power, so what you do is you bake the lighting in advance. The way Gears of War looks so amazing is that most of the lighting is rendered ahead of time. It's baked onto the surfaces, which is awesome if the lighting stays in the same places and nothing moves, but when the light or something in the environment changes, it breaks it.

The next generation wants to get over that trade-off by doing the lighting simulation last after all the physical objects are in place. Not only do you need to add the lighting last, it needs to be a better lighting than it was when we pre-baked it. Zoner found a way of doing it. On Xbox 360 and PS3, we get about 90% of the way there. It obviously looks a lot better when you're playing it on PC, but it turns out the consoles are powerful enough, and all the software's optimal enough because we're so late in the life cycle, to where he found a way and we're fucking doing it.

It's pretty exciting for us. When you hear some of the big guys talk about their next generation lighting, you're going to hear about deferred rendering a lot. It's very possible that Aliens: Colonial Marines is the first commercial product to ship with deferred lighting.

EDIT: Am i missing something? He's talking about being the first game to ship with deferred lighting... but the wiki page says already a dozen games do this, incuding some very old ones.
 

VAPitts

Member
WiiU to come with a dust cover confirmed?

I loved those my Wii has been collecting dust posts the future looks good for dirtdevils

i'm sry bro, u have been a negative nelly for the better of, i dunno a year. i can see claw marks on your threads at how much your digging and grasping for something bad to happen. lol
 

orioto

Good Art™
At this point i'm beginning to think this is clearly a Wii/XBOX situation actually. All those ambiguous and paradoxal talk about its power...

You can find people telling you the Wii is more powerfull than the XBOX, but in the same time it has some weakness compared to it. Depends on the games and the devs, the same way Rogue Leader on GC wasn't really matched on xbox to begin with.

We should just accept the fact that the WiiU will very probably be a mixing bag of cost efficient sacrifices and modern things. I think when it has to compare directly to the PS360, you won't have the RAW power to achieve better rez and better framerate, but in the same way some exclusives games will look OMG so better.

Just look at how Wipe Out 2048 on Vita has better lighting (as the Dev said it) than the PS3 version, cause its procs are just more modern. Same for many 3ds games.

It will be an usual Nintendo example of doing more with less.
 
At this point i'm beginning to think this is clearly a Wii/XBOX situation actually. All those ambiguous and paradoxal talk about its power...

You can find people telling you the Wii is more powerfull than the XBOX, but in the same time it has some weakness compared to it. Depends on the games and the devs, the same way Rogue Leader on GC wasn't really matched on xbox to begin with.

We should just accept the fact that the WiiU will very probably be a mixing bag of cost efficient sacrifices and modern things. I think when it has to compare directly to the PS360, you won't have the RAW power to achieve better rez and better framerate, but in the same way some exclusives games will look OMG so better.

Just look at how Wipe Out 2048 on Vita has better lighting (as the Dev said it) than the PS3 version, cause its procs are just more modern. Same for many 3ds games.

It will be an usual Nintendo example of doing more with less.

The thing is, I've yet to see someone getting upset abou that. To those who payed attention it was allways pretty clear that Nintendo wasn't aiming to outclass 360 and PS3 by a huge margin, but the recent "news" of the console being inferior to 360 and PS3 just reek of uninformed BS. Especially when you consider what we allready know to be in the box. Just from the components known, and the time they started development, there is simply no way in hell the WiiU could possibly, even with all the underclocking in the World be inferior in Hardware to a 360 and a PS3. Hell even on Par would be pretty much out of the question. 360 and PS3 specs with 2009 and beyond hardware is now passive cooling territory.

It was pretty clear for a long time that the WiiU would be halfway there to next gen. The only open question right now is, if this half step will be enough to get ports that are designed for next gen systems, and if future middleware can run on it.
 
OK, tech peeps - can anyone help here?

If we assume that the spec leaks and conjecture so far are correct, and we assume that the anonymous dev quotes are accurate insofar as they are seeing a machine that's slightly less, or just equal, to current-gen systems, how do you square the circle?

I've seen speculation about:
  • The demands of pushing content to the controller
  • The CPU handling code in a slightly different way
  • Some devs with early, poorly-optimised kits
  • Badly-optimised middleware

If the Wii U is just a little leap beyond, could the issues above contribute more than they would with a significantly more powerful system?

Does anyone with inside knowledge remember what the 360 devkit situation was like?

And why is it that the anon comments are all talking about CPU/GPU and not at all about the more unique features of the system? Early leaks mentioned issues with the controller, but everything recent is talking pretty much exclusively about the power issue.
 

Deguello

Member
And why is it that the anon comments are all talking about CPU/GPU and not at all about the more unique features of the system? Early leaks mentioned issues with the controller, but everything recent is talking pretty much exclusively about the power issue.

If you want my opinion, the last set of anonymous comments were full of shit. Nobody ends their "insider leak" with a crack about how Mario games don't need physics or AI.
 
It just strikes me as odd that - when the floodgates open and the anonymous devs finally see fit to start talking about dev hardware, it's (a) all about CPU/GPU and nothing about the tablet controller and any difficulties (or lack of) they're having with that, and (b) it all comes pretty much at the same time as the fresh spec talk of Durango/Orbis.
 

ozfunghi

Member
The problem is, that these so called anonymous sources simply can not be correct, for the simple fact that they are contradicting each other. One CVG source says the GPU doesn't have "more many better shaders"; the other source says "GPU is not the problem, it's the CPU".

And the anonymous THQ source basically stated WiiU blows PS360 out of the water back in september. The Gearbox guys also seem to think it's more powerful. All the Vigil comments combined (there were 3), also indicate it's more powerful but that they are simply not going to be using the extra muscle.
 

orioto

Good Art™
The thing is, I've yet to see someone getting upset abou that. To those who payed attention it was allways pretty clear that Nintendo wasn't aiming to outclass 360 and PS3 by a huge margin, but the recent "news" of the console being inferior to 360 and PS3 just reek of uninformed BS. Especially when you consider what we allready know to be in the box. Just from the components known, and the time they started development, there is simply no way in hell the WiiU could possibly, even with all the underclocking in the World be inferior in Hardware to a 360 and a PS3. Hell even on Par would be pretty much out of the question. 360 and PS3 specs with 2009 and beyond hardware is now passive cooling territory.

It was pretty clear for a long time that the WiiU would be halfway there to next gen. The only open question right now is, if this half step will be enough to get ports that are designed for next gen systems, and if future middleware can run on it.

Except the big difference between optimistic nintendo fans and others is basically :

me : It will be fine, and probably not clearly more powerfull than PS360, but some games will look badass.

you: Oh yeah indeed it will be fine and i'm not expecting much, two times the graphics of the PS360 will be enough even in the worst scenario.
 
If you want my opinion, the last set of anonymous comments were full of shit. Nobody ends their "insider leak" with a crack about how Mario games don't need physics or AI.

you underestimate the lack of professionalism in this industry smh

the sad thing is GAF has changed so much it seems like a large number of our members truly believe this stuff and believe it strongly

the other thread is a troll fest
 
Is it possible that Nintendo is also thinking about services like Steam and Origin with that OS-reserved RAM? 512 MB seems almost ludicrous...
 

guek

Banned
And the anonymous THQ source basically stated WiiU blows PS360 out of the water back in september.

Yeah, that was a really weird "leak." I looked it up again just now and I can't help but be suspicious of the source. But hey! It's anonymous! So it's gotta be truthful, right?

Is it possible that Nintendo is also thinking about services like Steam and Origin with that OS-reserved RAM? 512 MB seems almost ludicrous...

I agree, 512 dedicated to the OS is madness unless there are major features we haven't heard about at all yet.
 

ozfunghi

Member
Yeah, that was a really weird "leak." I looked it up again just now and I can't help but be suspicious of the source. But hey! It's anonymous! So it's gotta be truthful, right?

Indeed. But i doubt a website not about games, would go through the trouble of posting BS made up interviews about the performance of the WiiU. Their readers won't know or care, so why do it? They are not likely to get in the spotlight with it and score hits. Plus the interview doesn't seem really unbelievable (aside from it contradicting WiiU's performance level claimed by fellow anonymous insiders).

But to me it's worth just as much as two CVG sources contradicting each other about which part of the WiiU is actually weaker than PS360.
 

Maxrunner

Member
Yeah, that was a really weird "leak." I looked it up again just now and I can't help but be suspicious of the source. But hey! It's anonymous! So it's gotta be truthful, right?



I agree, 512 dedicated to the OS is madness unless there are major features we haven't heard about at all yet.

They could run Android pretty easily with that Ram...
 
The atmosphere here for the Wii U, at least lately, reminds me an awful lot of the batshit-insane craziness that was going on with the IGN boards prior to the gamecube and xbox launches.
 

guek

Banned
Indeed. But i doubt a website not about games, would go through the trouble of posting BS made up interviews about the performance of the WiiU. Their readers won't know or care, so why do it? They are not likely to get in the spotlight with it and score hits. Plus the interview doesn't seem really unbelievable (aside from it contradicting WiiU's performance level claimed by fellow anonymous insiders).

But to me it's worth just as much as two CVG sources contradicting each other about which part of the WiiU is actually weaker than PS360.

The only reason I'd give CVG and the GIBiz rumors a tiny bit more credence is because those are relatively reputable sites.

But as to your first point, who knows? False rumors get made up all the time from all kinds of places. Who knows why?
 

D_prOdigy

Member
I'd ask who got banned/when/why since last night, but I'm not sure I care any more.

This carnival of crazy will be forgotten in six months time.
 
The only reason I'd give CVG and the GIBiz rumors a tiny bit more credence is because those are relatively reputable sites.

But as to your first point, who knows? False rumors get made up all the time from all kinds of places. Who knows why?

I seem to recall the old EGM crew often mentioning that a lot of their Quarterman rumors were straight-made-up bullshit. I wouldn't put it past any enthusiast press site these days to generate pure click-bait without any semblance of supporting facts.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
GI and cv&g owe its readers a smidgen of background info on their sources. Such as... How long have they been working on the system? Is it for a multiplatform game or exclusive? What revision of the kits are they in possession.


On the last point, Nintendo's reputation of being disorganized with respects to third parties woudn't surprise me that they could be handing out hand-me-down v1 kits to new recruits because they are all out of v4, v5.

*shrugs*
 

v1oz

Member

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
For reference, where is the original source/post mentioning the large reservation of RAM for the OS?
 

aeroslash

Member
I figuered as much. Also, how much room does sound take? Does it get decompressed in real time or does it reside decompressed in memory?

We had a discussion here many pages ago. I think it was wispel who stated that the sound processing could take between 16 to 18% of the CPU load. That means that even if the CPU was the same as the 360, it could take near a 20% more of load.

That's why i really don't understand the quotes about the AI and physics being a step down from ps360. Maybe the developers are porting directly instead of learning the hardware and making the appropriate changes to the engines?
 
On the last point, Nintendo's reputation of being disorganized with respects to third parties woudn't surprise me that they could be handing out hand-me-down v1 kits to new recruits because they are all out of v4, v5.

As I understand it, the early 3DS kits going out to some third parties - like Julian Gollop and his team on Ghost Recon - didn't even feature (or make mention of!) the autostereoscopic top screen! Developers looking at the eShop were also - IIRC - reporting that they were still not able to get kits months post-launch.

We know there are multiple revisions of the Wii U dev hardware out there, and there are enough reports of issues with early revisions (underclocked hardware, issues with the controller/console pairing etc.) to suggest that anyone working with those kits is going to be having a bugger of a time. What we don't know - and what we won't know, as no-one commenting (even anonymously) to news sites is going to reveal it, for fear of being easily traced - is what revision of the dev hardware these guys are talking about and what they're actually working on.

It's an absolute mess for anyone trying to follow the news, as there's no context for these statements. If the anon sources at least said "We're working with first-/second-/third-/etc.-generation kits and these are the issues we're having" it would frame their complaints more effectively. But no, we get "anonymous developers with knowledge of the hardware claim" and that's it.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
If you pause a disc game and jump into the OS to do stuff and maybe play a downloadable tablet game, like the Othello example, how much memory is needed to hold your disc game's session?
 
If you pause a disc game and jump into the OS to do stuff and maybe play a downloadable tablet game, like the Othello example, how much memory is needed to hold your disc game's session?

Not much. Especially for a simplistic game like that. There is nothing they need 512MB for.
Nothing.
Even if they do have that rumored instant game video streaming service. I just.... I can't even begin to imagine just all what they would need 512MB for. That's as much as Windows XP (and hell, even Vista can run in that) needs a lot of times. They'll either optimize it to run in far less by the time the system is out, or they have some completely random features that no one can even think of.
 

orioto

Good Art™
Not much. Especially for a simplistic game like that. There is nothing they need 512MB for.
Nothing.
Even if they do have that rumored instant game video streaming service. I just.... I can't even begin to imagine just all what they would need 512MB for. That's as much as Windows XP (and hell, even Vista can run in that) needs a lot of times. They'll either optimize it to run in far less by the time the system is out, or they have some completely random features that no one can even think of.

Crazy multi video chat going while playing ?
 
Crazy multi video chat going while playing ?

Cross game video chat with 4 people? I suppose that could do it.... But why?
Why the hell would you need to do that? I barely like doing cross game voice chat with ONE person. Why would I talk to someone face to face while playing a game?
It's... so dumb.
 

orioto

Good Art™
Cross game video chat with 4 people? I suppose that could do it.... But why?
Why the hell would you need to do that? I barely like doing cross game voice chat with ONE person. Why would I talk to someone face to face while playing a game?
It's... so dumb.

But maybe in some family facebook way you know, don't forget that's their aim. At least it has to be related to the idea of many people in the family using the device at the same time...
 
But maybe in some family facebook way you know, don't forget that's their aim. At least it has to be related to the idea of many people in the family using the device at the same time...

Yeah, but in the sense that those people would all be in the same room.
I've never even seen them hint that they want families to connect online while playing a game.
 
I really hope these recent rumors are all bs or at least greatly exaggerated. On the one hand, I can't believe it'd be possible that the Zelda- and especially the garden demo would be possible on a machine that is even slightly less possible than current gen, hell I think it would be a real stretch on current gen, but otoh, so many rumors point in one direction and where there's smoke there's likely to be fire...

Maybe the early 3DS debacle scared Nintendo or shareholders told them the WiiU has to be profitable from the start, so I think it's possible that they downgraded the specs so the WiiU could be sold at a lower price while still making a profit. Still, I'm not a techie, but aren't even really low-end off the shelf components today much much better than the stuff in a 6 year old 360, and Nintendo would have to really go out of their way to make their custom parts so weak? It just doesn't make any sense.

I absolutely love their games, and their franchises are heavily stylized and don't need much power to look great, but I'd be lying if I said the ugly jaggies in Skyward Sword and the Galaxy games didn't bother me a little, and that I didn't ask myself in every Xenoblade cutscene "Why do they zoom in so much on those atrociously ugly and low-rez character models, that would look bad even in a PS2 game?". So I was really hoping the Wii U would make a big jump, not just for their franchises that would benefit from it (Zelda and Metroid definitely would IMO), but also for third parties...
 

orioto

Good Art™
Yeah, but in the sense that those people would all be in the same room.
I've never even seen them hint that they want families to connect online while playing a game.

Then in that case no video chat but what if you can see a movie on netflix while your kid is playing Mario ?
 

EDarkness

Member
I really hope these recent rumors are all bs or at least greatly exaggerated. On the one hand, I can't believe it'd be possible that the Zelda- and especially the garden demo would be possible on a machine that is even slightly less possible than current gen, hell I think it would be a real stretch on current gen, but otoh, so many rumors point in one direction and where there's smoke there's likely to be fire...

Maybe the early 3DS debacle scared Nintendo or shareholders told them the WiiU has to be profitable from the start, so I think it's possible that they downgraded the specs so the WiiU could be sold at a lower price while still making a profit. Still, I'm not a techie, but aren't even really low-end off the shelf components today much much better than the stuff in a 6 year old 360, and Nintendo would have to really go out of their way to make their custom parts so weak? It just doesn't make any sense.

I absolutely love their games, and their franchises are heavily stylized and don't need much power to look great, but I'd be lying if I said the ugly jaggies in Skyward Sword and the Galaxy games didn't bother me a little, and that I didn't ask myself in every Xenoblade cutscene "Why do they zoom in so much on those atrociously ugly and low-rez character models, that would look bad even in a PS2 game?". So I was really hoping the Wii U would make a big jump, not just for their franchises that would benefit from it (Zelda and Metroid definitely would IMO), but also for third parties...

Honestly, man, it's hard to imagine they've moved backwards in tech from last E3. Just not possible. So sit back, relax, drink a beer, and feel confident that the Wii U may not be a powerhouse, but it'll definitely be better than the current generation. :)
 
Then in that case no video chat but what if you can see a movie on netflix while your kid is playing Mario ?


Well, that wouldn't need a lot of RAM for the OS, though. You would have two programs running, and would need more RAM dedicated to them instead. Even then, it wouldn't need 512MB. That would be for an absolute ton of background features.
 

wsippel

Banned
I figuered as much. Also, how much room does sound take? Does it get decompressed in real time or does it reside decompressed in memory?
The Xbox360 has no DSP, but a hardware XMA decoder. The XMA decoder decompresses XMA encoded samples on load and writes them as uncompressed PCM data to RAM, so decompression doesn't impact the CPU, but it takes a lot of RAM and bandwidth. Nintendo DSPs on the other hand have their own internal decompressor for Nintendo's proprietary GCADPCM format, so samples in RAM are stored in compressed form and get decompressed on the fly by the DSP. Also, the DSPs can access the RAM by themselves, without relying on the CPU, and have some internal buffers to store some sample and instruction data locally. Basically, the CPU doesn't need to feed the DSP, it only sends the instruction to fetch a certain sample and play it back - the DSP does the rest and the CPU is free to do something else. All in all, the DSP saves RAM, bandwidth and CPU cycles (at the cost of flexibility, of course).
 
Indeed. But i doubt a website not about games, would go through the trouble of posting BS made up interviews about the performance of the WiiU. Their readers won't know or care, so why do it? They are not likely to get in the spotlight with it and score hits. Plus the interview doesn't seem really unbelievable (aside from it contradicting WiiU's performance level claimed by fellow anonymous insiders).

But to me it's worth just as much as two CVG sources contradicting each other about which part of the WiiU is actually weaker than PS360.

Actually, most of these comments can be true due to working on non definal dev kits and especially unoptimized middleware. Unlike the Gamecube --> Wii, the Wii u has a new artitecture and the tools to use its power will mature with time. Since this is the pre-first-gen of the system, middleware and gameengines will not work as effectively as they will later on, and not all companies are made equal.
 

ozfunghi

Member
For reference, where is the original source/post mentioning the large reservation of RAM for the OS?

Ideaman basically mentioned it the first time he hinted towards the total amount of RAM. He then said, and i'm paraphrasing, he expected about 1 gig of RAM or a bit more, and it ended up being even more than that. He also said around the same time (i think these statements were made in the previous topic) that a large part (larger than one would expect) was reserved for the OS, and that because that part was so large, he expected that after optimization, that number would go down, so that developers would even have more RAM to use for games.

The part where he actually confirmed the amount of RAM reserved for the OS being at least 512 MB, he quickly editted after he posted it, but i was able to read it before the edit:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36657871&postcount=15078

My original question was
"And this "huge" amount of RAM for OS... How huge is "so huge"? I would think anything less than 128MB would be small, between 128-256 would be expected, over 256 would be rather plenty and over 512 would be huge... do you agree with that sentiment? :p"

His reponse
For the huge part, well, i'm a teasing irritating <censored> little <censored> <censored>, but i'm aware of the OS sizes depending on their systems. So it's "wow, it can't be that huge, it seems too much"-huge, it's "have we seen such size in home systems before ? I don't think so"-huge.

My response
Ah, 320 MB. Got it. LOL.

Him
You defined yourself your "huge"scale in your previous post :p
So yes, it's huge

In this last response he made, he made the remark that his definition of "so huge" corresponded to my definition in my first post. But then he editted it.
 

Nilaul

Member
It could be 1.5 GB high end ram for games and 512 MB cheap ass ram for os?

I doubt devs need access to the os. So the Dev kits could only have the ram needed for Game running and debug.
 
It could be 1.5 GB high end ram for games and 512 MB cheap ass ram for os?

That is a possibility, yes.
But even then 512mb is still just insanity.

Though, I doubt they would divide it like that, since they wouldn't be able to add the OS pool to the main pool in the future.
 
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