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[CoffeeJanitor]

Iwata said...

Takeda said...

Unless they're giving concrete specifics people should learn not to hang off of the words of company executives, regarding their system's relative performance, when they have a very vested interest in painting a positive light on their products.

I think people just don't want to accept reality

 

[tkscz]

Well, Nintendo is pretty anal about delivering smooth 60FPS in all their games, save it for some exceptions.

True.

 

[Donnie]

So I've been out for the last few pages and I'll read back later, but by now, can anyone tell me where all this fixed function hardware is? Outside the DSP (or whatever that is), eDRAM, shaders, TMUs etc, all the uncore parts of the GPU look exactly the same as any other unified shader GPU to me. Where are these supposed fixed function shaders that make it faster than it seems?

Take a look at this HD4870 die shot:

The structures in the orange space aren't just dead space (I assume that's what you mean by uncore) that area includes the ROPS, tesselation units and various other logic, its just that a lot of it isn't easily identified.

WiiU's GPU has a hell of a lot of unidentified structures, far more than that shot, that's all we can say. Who knows exactly what they are, but they're not dead space either.

 

[blu]

Followed shortly by "oh fuck, we've gone bust, how did that happen"

I would have chuckled on that, if it was not so tragic.

 

[tipoo]

By the way you keep using the term "uncore" it seems you think that everything outside of the main identified areas of the R700 die shot are just dead space.
Who knows exactly what they are, but they're not dead space.

I know that much, of course it's not unused, it may be an inappropriate term in GPUs but in CPUs it's anything that supports the main logic, and isn't part of it. Thanks for explaining though, it does look bigger than normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncore

 

[Raist]

All this talk about how many "x" times a console is more powerful than another. Sorry to be that guy again, but even if console A is 10x more powerful than console B, what does it matter in the end? Are/were the games 10x "better" or 10x more fun?

It's a thread where people are dissecting a micrograph of the GPU. Don't expect a discussion about whether console X has more fun games than console Y.

 

[tkscz]

Edit: I'm not going to make assumptions about other gaffers. Instead, I do wonder how people of this thread feel about digital foundry.

 

[pulsemyne]

One thing I do wonder is whether the use of Fixed fuctions allows the GPU to have its very low wattage. I have a sneaky feeling that's why they are there. You offload things to the fixed stuff so that the GPU doesn't have to stress itself calculating too much stuff.

 

[EloquentM]

Some of you need to stay on topic. You're detracting from actual discussion at hand in favor of "I told you so" comments which are childish to say the least. Take that stupidity to the DF thread please.

 

[Donnie]

I know that much, of course it's not unused, it may be an inappropriate term in GPUs but in CPUs it's anything that supports the main logic, and isn't part of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncore

Ok I misunderstood you're meaning, obviously you'd consider the likes of tessellation units main logic?, obviously ROPS are. Take those into account and at a guess how much space does that R700 die have left for supporting logic, some but very little, maybe 15% die area. Alternatively when you identify the main area's of WiiU's GPU you're then left with a massive area (about half the GPU) of unidentified structures. Nobody should come to a firm conclusion on what they are (suggestions of fixed function hardware is a guess based on Nintendo's proclivities IMO). But surely you'd agree there's some thing significant in there (as far as it been core logic), you don't fill half a GPU with uncore, to use your term.

 

[Schnozberry]

One thing I do wonder is whether the use of Fixed fuctions allows the GPU to have its very low wattage. I have a sneaky feeling that's why they are there. You offload things to the fixed stuff so that the GPU doesn't have to stress itself calculating too much stuff.

Thraktor mentioned the possibility that there might not be any fixed function, and that AMD might have come up with an assymetrical shader design that allows for BC. He mentioned Durante saw a bunch of repeating logic in the unidentified areas of the chip that look like they could be custom shaders or ROPS. I'm interested to see if Ideaman can get the photo to a developer, who could possibly shed some light on what we're missing. There's far too much we can't explain about the chip to make any meaningful conclusions about total performance.

 

[Jaagen]

If Marcan already knew about the eDRAM(32+2+1MB), what are the chances of him knowing the shader count as well as what fixed functions there might be(if there are any at all, that is)

 

[ColdBlooder]

Thraktor mentioned the possibility that there might not be any fixed function, and that AMD might have come up with an assymetrical shader design that allows for BC. He mentioned Durante saw a bunch of repeating logic in the unidentified areas of the chip that look like they could be custom shaders or ROPS. I'm interested to see if Ideaman can get the photo to a developer, who could possibly shed some light on what we're missing. There's far too much we can't explain about the chip to make any meaningful conclusions about total performance.

So there could be custom shaders and "regular" shaders on the chip? So we would have 352 gflops regular shaders + X gflops of custom shaders?

Wouldn't that mean we would never fully know how much gflop in total Latte has if that were true?

 

[VariantX]

All this talk about how many "x" times a console is more powerful than another. Sorry to be that guy again, but even if console A is 10x more powerful than console B, what does it matter in the end? Are/were the games 10x "better" or 10x more fun?

Now WAIT: All the talk about how many times a console is more powerful than another was much more relevant in the early years of gaming and especially in the early years of 3D graphics. Visions couldn't be realized because of that. 3D objects didn't match the ideas they were build from - simply because there weren't enough polygons and graphical effects to make objects look like devs wanted them to do, and yet the games were fun (and are IMHO still to this date).

So there was indeed a corelation between hardware power and "better" games, it seems, but taht was mostly true for games that strove for some sort of realism or huge worlds.

I'd say that since the PS360 the difference between what devs try to do and what hardware let's them do has become MUCH SMALLER. I'd even say that from that point on any improvements in hardware will only help them a little, since they are almost "free" now. They are free to do what they want (almost). Since the PS360 I feel they are not "restrained" by hardware anymore. If anthing, they are restrained by their own ideas, talent and artistic ability. OH, an by MONEY (huge development costs).

In addition to that, publishers,´and the market with all it's streamlined taste is holding them back more than anything ever!

There are so many people here (or in general) whose hopes of a better gaming future with better games almost soley rely on "better hardware", when that actually should be their least concern.

And yes, Wii U games will still look "very good". Some of them will even look "awesome". Why? Because there is only so much your eyes can see. And with all the tech inside of the Wii U, devs will be more than able to meet their visions if they want and work hard.

Um, while I agree 100% with what you say, it was just a discussion about the difference in processing power between consoles and nothing more than that. No one was implying that x machine was worse than y, nor did anyone say anything about the quality of the software being made for whatever console.

 

[ozfunghi]

Take a look at this HD4870 die shot:

The structures in the orange space aren't just dead space (I assume that's what you mean by uncore) that area includes the ROPS, tesselation units and various other logic, its just that a lot of it isn't easily identified.

WiiU's GPU has a hell of a lot of unidentified structures, far more than that shot, that's all we can say. Who knows exactly what they are, but they're not dead space either.

If you rearrange the orange parts in your preferred picture editing software, you can see that the orange parts, take up exactly 1/3rd of the entire chip (189px out of 588px). I used the measure tool in photoshop, after stacking from left to right.

For what it's worth.

 

[wsippel]

The many blocks that appear twice confuse me. I was looking at a couple different Radeon dies and couldn't find similar elements in them. There's one block that appears in similar form in all cores I've seen though, and that's the symmetric one with lots of registers and very little logic below the shader clusters. No idea what it is, but it appears to be common.

Also, I think the large area surrounding the two high speed interfaces below the eDRAM is the display controller, UVD unit and DSP.

 

[Schnozberry]

So there could be custom shaders and "regular" shaders on the chip? So we would have 352 gflops regular shaders + X gflops of custom shaders?

Wouldn't that mean we would never fully know how much gflop in total Latte has if that were true?

Yeah, that's the big question mark. We haven't even identified what the custom stuff is. It's just one of the theories out there. Hopefully a developer or someone otherwise familiar with the hardware can grace us with some info.

 

[evangd007]

Yeah, that's the big question mark. We haven't even identified what the custom stuff is. It's just one of the theories out there. Hopefully a developer or someone otherwise familiar with the hardware can grace us with some info.

How, praytell, did we ever figure out what the Gamecube's TEV did? Did Nintendo just tell us what fixed functions it had?

 

[Mlatador]

I didn't need coffee and saliva all over my monitor. Now I need to clean it, thanks.

I knew you wouldn't understand it, no problem. When I wrote "there is only so much your eyes can see", it wasn't meant literally.

I'll explain it to you while you clean your monitor. Back then, with trully limiting hardware, a dev tried to build a tree in a 3D world. He didn't have much resources. So he had to make a very basic tree. Just a few polygons and very simple geometry for the trunk, the same for the top. Put a little colour on it, and that was the best a tree could look like back then.

Did the gamers "saw" it as a tree? Probably yes, because it kind of looked like a tree. But still, they also saw that the difference between a real tree (that their eyes are familiar with) and the basic polygonal tree was pretty big.

Where their eyes "pleased"? Probably not. But nowadys trees look so much better. The gab between what a real tree looks like and what a digital tree looks like is much much smaller. It's much easier for your eyes to see it as a real tree, since it already looks almost like it's counterpart.

Same goes for humans, lighting and other stuff. The illusion is already "sufficient" I believe.

Here are some pics of a game that's ten years old. It was made on hardware that is 10x or 15x weaker than PS360. Yet, the trees look like trees to me. My brain has to tell my eyes to look very closely to see imperfections. But at first glance (and even beyond), provided I'm not trying hard to convince myself otherwise, I not only "see" the trees, I can almost smell them.

 

[Earendil]

So, is the Tank Oscillator a special block of logic to make Tanks! Tanks! Tanks! run? Or does it give us the ability to control an M1 Abrams with the gamepad?

 

[prag16]

Holy crap

Holy crap is right (with regard to DF's claim that devs were given NO documentation on any of this as the reason nothing has leaked).

But have they substantiated that claim? I find it hard to believe.


I also agree with those a bit skeptical of DF in general. Their analysis usually seems pretty well done and thorough, however there have been some eyebrow raising moments of possible bias... and their dismissal of over 30% of the GPU die (which we have no clue what it is and neither do they) out of hand is the latest and possibly biggest example.

 

[Thraktor]

I've just updated the OP with the Digital Foundry article and Marcan's comments.

Also, I've added what I spent the morning working on:

Hopefully it will help discussion to have actual (code)names for all the different components on there.

I'll have some more stuff up shortly.

 

[ColdBlooder]

So, is the Tank Oscillator a special block of logic to make Tanks! Tanks! Tanks! run? Or does it give us the ability to control an M1 Abrams with the gamepad?

Tank Tank Tank propably runs on one fo the arm processors only. Looks like crap, controls like crap. All in all... Its crap.... Unfortunately!

 

[wsippel]

So, is the Tank Oscillator a special block of logic to make Tanks! Tanks! Tanks! run? Or does it give us the ability to control an M1 Abrams with the gamepad?

Wrong tank. To quote Wikipedia:

Its action, known mathematically as a harmonic oscillator, is similar to a pendulum swinging back and forth, or water sloshing back and forth in a tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

 

[Kenka]

I've just updated the OP with the Digital Foundry article and Marcan's comments.

Also, I've added what I spent the morning working on:

Nice ! But the DF article does not seem to fuel the discussion in any positive way...

 

[snowdog1971]

Lot's of mysteries to solve.


Google doesn't know either @ tank oscillator.

SerDes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SerDes ) (for those who're interested / if it's even this)

Omfg, are all you people intelyguntly chalinged..? It's obvious, you fools. A tank oscillator obviously oscillates tanks. Bloomin idiots.

*Takes his medication and goes for a lie down*

;oP

 

[Schnozberry]

How, praytell, did we ever figure out what the Gamecube's TEV did? Did Nintendo just tell us what fixed functions it had?

Well, Factor 5 actually explained it fairly well leading up to launch when they were talking about Rogue Squadron. That's how I learned about it, anyway.

 

[blu]

Thank you, Thraktor, that's an excellent job. And the first step we needed to do to towards a more systematic approach. I know Durante and the rest of us spent effort in that direction but this is the first time we have this die properly partitioned.

 

[wsippel]

I've just updated the OP with the Digital Foundry article and Marcan's comments.

Also, I've added what I spent the morning working on:

Hopefully it will help discussion to have actual (code)names for all the different components on there.

I'll have some more stuff up shortly.

Guesswork incoming:

X: Display controller and UVD
Y: Audio DSP

Grasping straws:

D: ARM core

And whatever V might be, that block appears to be in all recent Radeon GPUs.

 

[Schnozberry]

Can somebody summarize the DF article? I can't read it here at work.

 

[tkscz]

I've just updated the OP with the Digital Foundry article and Marcan's comments.

Also, I've added what I spent the morning working on:

Hopefully it will help discussion to have actual (code)names for all the different components on there.

I'll have some more stuff up shortly.

U1, U2, W1, W2 are the Fixed Functions. Totally pulling that out of my ass, but hey, you never know.

 

[Thraktor]

Guesswork incoming:

X: Display controller and UVD
Y: Audio DSP

Grasping straws:

D: ARM core

And whatever V might be, that block appears to be in all recent Radeon GPUs.

I think you might be right on X and Y. I had a feeling that V might be the ARM (small core, lots of cache, near the DDR3 interface), but if it's in all Radeon GPUs, then seemingly not.

 

[blu]

Can somebody summarize the DF article? I can't read it here at work.

'Thanks to these fine folks at gaf here, we can finally boldly claim: WiiU not next gen!'

I still regret giving them a hit.

Guesswork incoming:

X: Display controller and UVD
Y: Audio DSP

Grasping straws:

D: ARM core

And whatever V might be, that block appears to be in all recent Radeon GPUs.

How big is that area? It does look a tad large for a v5 at first glance.

 

[Donnie]

If you rearrange the orange parts in your preferred picture editing software, you can see that the orange parts, take up exactly 1/3rd of the entire chip (189px out of 588px). I used the measure tool in photoshop, after stacking from left to right.

For what it's worth.

Thanks, I guessed at something a bit over 25%, so not too far off. The orange area will include essential logic such as ROPS and tesselation units of course which is why I mentioned a guess of 15% for the unidentified areas, just a rough guess though.

 

[evangd007]

U1, U2, W1, W2 are the Fixed Functions. Totally pulling that out of my ass, but hey, you never know.

This is more confusing than interpreting my friend's custom Linux kernal.

 

[Thraktor]

'Thanks to these fine folks at gaf here, we can finally boldly claim: WiiU not next gen!'

I still regret giving them a hit.


How big is that area? It does look a tad large for a v5 at first glance.

They didn't even link to the thread here...

Edit: Reposted for the new page:

 

[Schnozberry]

'Thanks to these fine folks at gaf here, we can finally boldly claim: WiiU not next gen!'

I still regret giving them a hit.

Facepalm. Oh well. I'm sure they'll sleep better in the nice little mental cages they've built for themselves.

 

[wsippel]

How big is that area? It does look a tad large for a v5 at first glance.

I have no idea, but there's a lot of SRAM, which made me think that it might be L2 for the ARM core.

 

[tkscz]

They didn't even link to the thread here...

Edit: Reposted for the new page:

But you have to admit, it took you guys hours just to get where you are and you still don't know everything. Yet they make that article in less time and makes it seem like what they don't know about isn't important at all. Seem a little suspicious if you ask me.

 

[Schnozberry]

But you have to admit, it took you guys hours just to get where you are and you still don't know everything. Yet they make that article in less time and makes it seem like what they don't know about isn't important at all. Seem a little suspicious if you ask me.

What they don't know gets in the way of making a click baiting headline, so they ignore it. They are gaming journalists after all.

 

[tkscz]

What they don't know gets in the way of making a click baiting headline, so they ignore it. They are gaming journalists after all.

Well ignoring worked on gaf, as that thread is getting a lot of post in a short time.

 

[ColdBlooder]

But you have to admit, it took you guys hours just to get where you are and you still don't know everything. Yet they make that article in less time and makes it seem like what they don't know about isn't important at all. Seem a little suspicious if you ask me.

We may don't know alot more, yes. But with the die shot out in the wild, other people will be able to decipher it propably. That was the main goal of getting the die shot in the first place.

EDIT: But it makes finfing someone to decipher it alot easier thanks to Chipworks who released it to the public. We would have to show it to someone knowledgable without publishing it if we bought it...

 

[MDX]

I'll have some more stuff up shortly.

So damn, this GPU has SRAM and two pools of eDRAM?

 

[The Boat]

We may don't know alot more, yes. But with the die shot out in the wild, other people will be able to decipher it propably. That was the main goal of getting the die shot in the first place.

Well, if DF found out something "we" didn't, they didn't show it in the article.

 

[DragonSworne]

If Marcan already knew about the eDRAM(32+2+1MB), what are the chances of him knowing the shader count as well as what fixed functions there might be(if there are any at all, that is)

Why don't you ask him?

 

[tkscz]

We may don't know alot more, yes. But with the die shot out in the wild, other people will be able to decipher it propably. That was the main goal of getting the die shot in the first place.

EDIT: But it makes finfing someone to decipher it alot easier thanks to Chipworks who released it to the public. We would have to show it to someone knowledgable without publishing it if we bought it...

Their article shown less information than what Gaf found.

Why don't you ask him?

Made me giggle.

 

[ColdBlooder]

Well, if DF found out something "we" didn't, they didn't show it in the article.

They only repeated what we know. And completely ignored the fact that theres still a ton of questionmarks... But it will be funny when it turns out to also have custom shaders. Would make their crappy article a complete joke.

Also i gotta say this thread is moving alot better (quieter) than i expected. Thats good!

 

[The Wraith]

While it is disappointing to hear this thing is anemic on the power side but as long as the games come rolling along it really doesn't matter in the end game. Nintendo is legendary because of their first party support so they will be fine.

 

[DragonSworne]

They didn't even link to the thread here...

Edit: Reposted for the new page:

Awesome work

Do you have any understanding why the repeating logic sections differ slightly from each other? Is this common or also unusual?

 

[ColdBlooder]

While it is disappointing to hear this thing is anemic on the power side but as long as the games come rolling along it really doesn't matter in the end game. Nintendo is legendary because of their first party support so they will be fine.

Too early to call it that just yet.