phosphor112
Banned
AA takes processing power and bandwidth. It takes time for devs to figure out ways to squeeze in a decent AA without taking away from their graphics pipeline for polygons and shaders.
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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
- Thread starter Thraktor
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AA takes processing power and bandwidth. It takes time for devs to figure out ways to squeeze in a decent AA without taking away from their graphics pipeline for polygons and shaders.
I don't know if it's my eyes or if I'm just not too close to the Tv, but I never notice the aliasing on these Wii U games that I know don't have AA. If I look for it I can see it, if I move close to the image too, but from where I'm playing? Doesn't bother me. I'm thankful for not being eagle eyed like that.
Fourth Storm
Member
Bandwidth might be the issue after all, if what I have gathered is accurate. It certainly has enough eDRAM for 2xMSAA, but afaik the only game to use it is BLOPS2. Of course, consoles seem to be making due with shader-based techniques like FXAA since the move to deferred rendering, so it could just reflect that general trend. The eDRAM is surely being used for V-Sync via triple buffering in many titles, which is why you don't see tearing in any games (besides Darksiders). I wonder what 35.2 GB/s could achieve...
Thanks for the answers, but i don't think lack of at least 2xmsaa is time related.
I've read some tech articles on ps3 and xbox 360 AA techniques and what i understand is going from Quincunx AA to MLAA took time for ps3 because you have to figure out how to do AA using the SPU and it was new AA technique but MSAA is like the simplest AA technique but it needs certain bandwith and framebuffer size. The xbox 360 has 10 mb and could not do 1280*720 with 2*msaa (Sub Hd with 2*msaa yes) , devs needed to use tiling for that.Wii u has like 32 or 38 (not sure) so as Fourth Storm says it's perhaps bandwidth issue. Again i'm not an expert just discussing this particular tech point.
I've read some tech articles on ps3 and xbox 360 AA techniques and what i understand is going from Quincunx AA to MLAA took time for ps3 because you have to figure out how to do AA using the SPU and it was new AA technique but MSAA is like the simplest AA technique but it needs certain bandwith and framebuffer size. The xbox 360 has 10 mb and could not do 1280*720 with 2*msaa (Sub Hd with 2*msaa yes) , devs needed to use tiling for that.Wii u has like 32 or 38 (not sure) so as Fourth Storm says it's perhaps bandwidth issue. Again i'm not an expert just discussing this particular tech point.
freezamite
Banned
Wouldn't that mean a 512 bit buffer between GPU and eDRAM? I thought that some people here already counted 1024 pins between the memory and the rest of the chip...
Duckhuntdog
Member
Here's a question I have asked in other threads with less than satisfying answers-- meaning I got nothing but joke posts.
What are the differences, good and bad, between eDRAM in the WiiU and eSRAM in the X1?
What are the differences, good and bad, between eDRAM in the WiiU and eSRAM in the X1?
A gaffer has commented the dev stating it's 192 shader units instead of 160 for the gpu from the project cars forum.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=89454867&postcount=517
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=89454867&postcount=517
lostinblue
Banned
If they're saying that then we have to take it as a strong possibility. They're not your average developer not tinkering with the hardware after all, quite the contrary, chances are they either know via documentation or got to that number through other means.
lostinblue
Banned
In order to throw a bone here, there's only a few designs using 192 shader units, and ironically their introduction happened the same year the Wii U launched.
They are:
Radeon HD 7540D/7520G/7400G (Trinity IGP's)
Released: October, May, September 2012 (APU: A6-5400K/A6-4400M/A6-4355M)
Codename: Scrapper
Based on: HD 69xx's VLIW4 ISA
192 Shader Units
12 Texture Mapping Units
4 Raster Output Processors
Memory Bus: DDR3 Memory Controller (DDR3-1866/1600/1333)
292 GFlops @ 760 MHz (HD 7540D)
190 GFlops @ 496 MHz (HD 7520G)
125 GFlops @ 327 MHz (HD 7400G)
211 GFlops @ 550 MHz (Wii U GPU clock)
Take it as you will, but seeing how the timeline fits in perhaps it's not so farfetched to believe that perhaps they have something in common other than the already obvious DDR3 bus (VLIW4, or some structure/architecture decisions, perhaps). If only we could see a GPU die shot from those. Still we've looked before into IGP similarities here and we found blocks to be more akin to them before than R600/R700 parts... I think?
They are:
Radeon HD 7540D/7520G/7400G (Trinity IGP's)
Released: October, May, September 2012 (APU: A6-5400K/A6-4400M/A6-4355M)
Codename: Scrapper
Based on: HD 69xx's VLIW4 ISA
192 Shader Units
12 Texture Mapping Units
4 Raster Output Processors
Memory Bus: DDR3 Memory Controller (DDR3-1866/1600/1333)
292 GFlops @ 760 MHz (HD 7540D)
190 GFlops @ 496 MHz (HD 7520G)
125 GFlops @ 327 MHz (HD 7400G)
211 GFlops @ 550 MHz (Wii U GPU clock)
Take it as you will, but seeing how the timeline fits in perhaps it's not so farfetched to believe that perhaps they have something in common other than the already obvious DDR3 bus (VLIW4, or some structure/architecture decisions, perhaps). If only we could see a GPU die shot from those. Still we've looked before into IGP similarities here and we found blocks to be more akin to them before than R600/R700 parts... I think?
Fourth Storm
Member
I have the highest res pic available of the chip. The pins to the eDRAM are an odd number and probably not indicative of bandwidth.
lwilliams3
Member
In this case, it is partially because it is a very unique customization. BG is now implying that Latte has 160 ALUs, but 192 threads. So..one ALU can handle 6 threads? I will have to read up on how that can work.
Personally, I would be asking how we are getting what we are seeing in some of these Wii U games with such a lower shader unit count.
Trevelyan9999
Banned
So the Wii U has secret sauce after all? I think the GPU is just different enough to make the "next gen" or modern GPU features not cost effective to use in 360/PS3 ports. As we are seeing in Super Mario 3D World, more modern effects are being used and I'm sure the Wii U can do much more than that.
The Wii U just has a much more recent featureset compared to those old shitty machines. What was it, DX9 equivalent on XBox and something like 10.x?? on Wii U? Yes I know it's not DX but you get my drift.
It also has >3x the eDRAM of the 360 so it's gotta be faster/better/more efficient in some areas.
Saying it's in the middle is a bit of a stretch. 1.8 Teraflops on the PS4 vs 176GFlops in raw GPU. 12GB/s main memory bandwidth vs 176GB/s.
I know not all GFlops are created equal but man, noway is that in the middle. Wii U is an enhanced 360/PS3, that's all. That may be fine for some (It would be for me if the rest of the platform as a whole wasn't bad) but people need to just admit where it sits.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I thought we knew for a fact that Latte was VLIW5..
edit: well, not for a fact, but it seemed to be supported by other evidence as well..
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I wish we still had some bigger developers outside of Nintendo pushing the hardware. I'd love to see what a modern day Factor 5 could have done with it, and what they'd have to say about its performance.
lostinblue
Banned
Well, I don't know, but I think going back is essential in order to get it right sometimes.
We've hit lots of walls throughout this thread (and even before) because of this proprietary design, we might as well take into account what a dev has to say.
I don't really know how that fits into the core die shot we have though.
lostinblue
Banned
Factor 5 is a kind of phantom menace (star wars puns oh yeah), they had expertize and all that ith Nintendo but only favored for as long as their platforms were powerful or even against competitors which was the case with N64 and Gamecube. That's why they jumped ship on the Wii, and sure they were trying to go back but only because they realized there was a niche there and they had no further options.
"If" Factor 5 was around today, and Lair had paid off, they'd be on PS4, not on XBone and not on Wii U, dudes craved for processing power.
EDIT: oops double post.
BG has apparently been in contact with someone who knows and he said VLIW5 IIRC.
Seems like COD Ghosts isn't any better on the Wii U than BO2 was:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-face-off
Very slightly higher resolution than 360 but significantly worse framerate.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-face-off
Very slightly higher resolution than 360 but significantly worse framerate.
ArchangelWest
Member
^Treyarch says they'll have an optimization patch soon for Wii U to fix the frame rate issue.
prag16
Banned
Is it even that many people? Is there a source for that?
OG_Original Gamer
Member
There's a picture of the team, I guess there was a head count.
wonder if DF will rerun tests and update. they should if its a giant fix.
I believe that SC Blacklist also got a performance patch, but no one re-reviewed it afterward.
Though this is interesting info though.
One none official dev states the Wii U got faster with the final devkits. Another states it has 192 Shaders(which is more in terms with what I was suggesting long ago).
This is certainly interesting/
tkscz
Member
Knowing DF, they won't.
It's sounding like a Dreamcast right now. The DC came out at an odd time and was kinda in-between the PS1 and PS2 eras. Hopefully it doesn't suffer the same fate.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
that's kind of a sad thought, though. I mean is it impossible for a big developer to want to push a piece of hardware, even if it isn't cutting edge? (or at least cutting edge at the time of release?)
are future Nintendo consoles doomed to be fully exploited only by first party teams and demosceners?
"Besides the variance in overall image quality, the main difference between the current-gen consoles lies with how the artwork is presented on each platform. While the core assets are fundamentally identical across all consoles, both the PS3 and Wii U versions of Call of Duty: Ghosts feature a few problems where lower-resolution textures are prominently displayed across characters and the environments. In many instances the impact of this is relatively minor and hard to notice beyond the occasional blurry poster or door texture, but at worst we see large walls and entire characters appearing on screen with what looks like lower-quality level-of-detail settings applied, sometimes on a permanent basis throughout a particular scene and even a whole level. This is particularly prevalent on the Wii U game, where the drop in artwork quality is much bigger and occurs far more frequently."
Dafuq
lostinblue
Banned
^ Probably so, unless there was HUGE financial gain to be had. (see PSone and PS2 cases)
But look at the Wii, theoretically it should have had that and they still managed to turn a blind eye on it.
But look at the Wii, theoretically it should have had that and they still managed to turn a blind eye on it.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
The most common thing prevalent in these ports, is that, that 1 GB of available memory is only used for game code and holding the textures limited by 360/PS3. Porting over to WiiU means you have go through each line of code making sure that textures aren't being accessed directly by the GPU from the slow DDR3 which leads to bottlenecks.
prag16
Banned
I'll look for myself at some point, but I'd have to wonder how many of them are "full time" on the Wii U version, how many are divided between projects, and how many are credited just to be credited with minimal direct involvement.
megabytecr
Member
I appreciate everyone trying to provide information and theories about Latte, but I have not heard anything to justify:
- Iwata calling it GPGPU (160 ALUs for that without any customization is laughable)
- DOF and lighting, specially DOF I have heard some games on PCs going half the FPS when activating DOF effects.
What? That doesn't take much to justify. Any GPU from the unified generation can be called a GPGPU. A GPGPU isn't a special "thing", it just means any GPU that can perform general processing operations. Which is anything from the Nvidia 8000 series and AMD 2000 series and onwards. ALUs have nothing to do with it, it doesn't imply more or less.
megabytecr
Member
I know what you mean, but if you have less power it means you will have your GPU 100% on graphics tasks, making anything more out of it virtually impossible. I mean PS4 has 4 CUs dedicated to that.
How do you know this? I've never heard of such a thing.
Exactly and this is how the Wii U works (And every other GPU capable of GP). Some portion of graphics fidelity will have to be sacrificed to go GP on the GPU. How much will depend on what you want to do of course.
It's just that Wii U is anaemic to start with.
Ah, I see what you're saying now, but even a weak GPU could still be used for things like texture decompression, and maybe even a few in-game things like fluid simulation. The option is there at least for developers to see what they can do with it, so it still qualifies for being called a GPGPU.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
My bad, I meant to type shaders.
lwilliams3
Member
There are also some features in Latte that are helpful/needed for proper GPGPU support, but they were not activated in the sku version's documentation that BG saw for some reason.
It should also be noted that these shaders units seem to push more than its weight, and the dev from Project CARS specifically contribute that to the eDRAM. Unfortunately, we still don't know too much about that.
Did we come to an agreement to what is going on with the "ROPs"?
freezamite
Banned
Has this been confirmed? I've been reading this thread and the other one and I didn't see BG saying that his documentation was old.
If those changes are effectively there, could you at least point some of them even if it's in a vaguely form (like saying "it has more memory here than it should" or "it can do X that allows Y")?
Thanks!
lwilliams3
Member
He did mention it early on in either this thread or the other one. From what I assume, the documentation said that the feature is in the hardware but is not enabled to be used at this time. We don't know how old the docs are afaik.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-batman-arkham-origins-face-off
The Wii U version lacks anti aliasing even seen on the ancient PS360 GPUs. I'm not one to go off one game, but the omission is strange.
The Wii U version lacks anti aliasing even seen on the ancient PS360 GPUs. I'm not one to go off one game, but the omission is strange.
BlockheadBrown
Member
And the 360 version has screen tearing all over.
True. Do we still think Nintendo is enforcing Vsync, and DS2 was just some crazy bastard child? And I'm not saying one was better than the other, just bringing up a point.
AA is bandwidth and compute intensive, Vsync isn't as much.
ArchangelWest
Member
What's interesting to me about the no AA thing on Wii U games, is that when a game is in motion, it looks fine. You can't even tell. It's just when there's no motion, whatever it is about how these games are crafted changes. It's the same with Arkham Origins. Terrible jaggies when you just sit there and look at a motionless screen, but when you are actually playing, or observing someone playing, there are some jaggies, but all in all it's night and day.
I'm not sure what they are doing for this to be the case, but in all honesty, if someone thinks less of the game because of how it looks while not playing it, then I don't know what to tell you. The idea of screen shots telling the whole story is outdated.
I'm not sure what they are doing for this to be the case, but in all honesty, if someone thinks less of the game because of how it looks while not playing it, then I don't know what to tell you. The idea of screen shots telling the whole story is outdated.
lwilliams3
Member
It should be noted that the game was outsourced to Human Head studios, and was not made by the same team that ported Arkam City last year (which is likely why it doesn't even have those touch features from the previous game.). They are a relatively small company and this was their first Wii U game, so there were unsurprisingly some issues porting over the Current-gen codes like it was during launch. I wonder if the game could be patched up to improved performance like what may happen with CoD: Ghost.
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