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[krizzx]

Perhaps the better way to phrase it is that the Wii's GPU did not support normal maps. It did support EMBM, which can look similar, but the effect is more limited when you view the effect of the object from a different angle. Mario Galaxy used a lot of EMBM, and it benefit from having an auto-cam so you would not normally see the effect break. This is why the game may not look as well when you're using free view.

The Wii's lack of modern shader support was likely a bigger barrier to making downports from the other systems than the power was. The Wii U doesn't have that issue.

Did not support? The TEV supported whatever the dev was willing program it to do.

I'm well aware of the natural ability of the GC and the Wii to do EMBM and that it is the most abundant texture effect observed in GC/Wii games, but that is another issue. He claimed that the Wii "couldn't" do normal mapping which was untrue. Even the GC could and did do normal mapping. There are many games that used real normal mapping and even a few that used HDR lighitng which lot of individuals will not accept.

The benefit of the TEV was that it could produce various texture effects with a lower resource cost, so even though the hardware in the Wii was no where near as strong as the PS3/360, it could still produce a lot of the same effects.

 

[ASIS]

No, you are wrong. There are many objects that have been confirmed to use normal mapping in Super Mario Galaxy.

http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_Galaxy
http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_Galaxy/Early_Objects
http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_Galaxy/Unused_Planets



Since the first page. There are a lot of people who don't want the Wii U to be acknowledge as next gen for some reason and will go out of their way to deny any advancement over the last gen consoles demonstrated on it.

Digital Foundry certainly didn't help with that rushed, fictitious write up they did for the Wii U GPU based on the early info in this thread(where they state, and I quote "we can now, categorically, finally rule out any next-gen pretensions for the Wii U") that they refuse to update or correct in anyway. Every time I see someone start talking about Wii U features outside of this forum, someone links/quotes that article like it is the absolute, 100%, undisputed, unquestionable fact of reality and limit of the Wii U GPU capability.

I wish someone would do another write up that with the information we have now so we can put and end to this.

Update? Did you guys learn new things about the Wii U GPU?

 

[krizzx]

Update? Did you guys learn new things about the Wii U GPU?

I was referring to the many things we have learned since the Digital Foundry write-up. Like the fact that the GPU is a completely custom design as well as its components conrtary to claim that its a standard Radeon(a weaker one than the prelaunch rumors no less) like DF professed with certainty, and that no one actually knows enough about any of the components to say what its maximum limits/capabilities are, yet.

Another, is that the RAM bandwidth problems that a lot of people insisted on the Wii U having and being bottlenecked "behind" the last gen consoles by do not exist.

Then there is the presumption that the Wii U CPU is all around weaker than the Cell/Xenon and has not benefits over them, and that it's low clock makes it weaker.

Also, there is the claim that it has issues with transparencies, but there are plenty observed in games built from the ground up for the console.

This is at least enough info to dispel a lot of the negative myths and misinformation floating around.

 

[Popstar]

He claimed that the Wii "couldn't" do normal mapping which was untrue. Even the GC could and did do normal mapping. There are many games that used real normal mapping and even a few that used HDR lighitng which lot of individuals will not accept.

Unlike the Xbox, the GameCube didn't have the ability to calculate a dot product in the pixel pipe. So no, it couldn't do normal mapping as it's usually described.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Saw the video of Shadows of the Eternals, the most likely escenario is that it's runing on PC because of the nature of the project. Not becuase the Wii U couldn't run it, since at this stage it looks really mediocre and not even close above the best looking titles of this generation.

Unlike the Xbox, the GameCube didn't have the ability to calculate a dot product in the pixel pipe. So no, it couldn't do normal mapping as it's usually described.

This seems to be the conclusion people well versed in the matter reach every time this disscusion is brought up. Anyways, the hardware wasn't capable enough to support the effect optimally due to the very few games that tried to use the effect or something close to it. For example, i got the impression the DC had Bump Map support listed in the feature set of the Power VR2 GPU but no game ever used it. There was a case for Shenmue but i don't remember if it was actually true.

 

[LCGeek]

Saw the video of Shadows of the Eternals, the most likely escenario is that it's runing on PC because of the nature of the project. Not becuase the Wii U couldn't run it, since at this stage it looks really mediocre and not even close above the best looking titles of this generation.

This seems to be the conclusion people well versed in the matter reach every time this disscusion is brought up. Anyways, the hardware wasn't capable enough to support the effect optimally due to the very few games that tried to use the effect or something close to it. For example, i got the impression the DC had Bump Map support listed in the feature set of the Power VR2 GPU but no game ever used it. There was a case for Shenmue but i don't remember if it was actually true.

They didn't want to spend the time to do it. Factor 5 did what it did on cube in less than 18 months with rebel strike and and a year with the first title. They used this effect to no end and easily showed the system could. Devs never bothered or had the means to dig in to the architecture.

 

[NBtoaster]

Did not support? The TEV supported whatever the dev was willing program it to do.

I'm well aware of the natural ability of the GC and the Wii to do EMBM and that it is the most abundant texture effect observed in GC/Wii games, but that is another issue. He claimed that the Wii "couldn't" do normal mapping which was untrue. Even the GC could and did do normal mapping. There are many games that used real normal mapping and even a few that used HDR lighitng which lot of individuals will not accept.

The benefit of the TEV was that it could produce various texture effects with a lower resource cost, so even though the hardware in the Wii was no where near as strong as the PS3/360, it could still produce a lot of the same effects.

I doubt anything on Wii/GC used HDR.

 

[JordanN]

Saw the video of Shadows of the Eternals, the most likely escenario is that it's runing on PC because of the nature of the project. Not becuase the Wii U couldn't run it, since at this stage it looks really mediocre and not even close above the best looking titles of this generation.

This seems to be the conclusion people well versed in the matter reach every time this disscusion is brought up. Anyways, the hardware wasn't capable enough to support the effect optimally due to the very few games that tried to use the effect or something close to it. For example, i got the impression the DC had Bump Map support listed in the feature set of the Power VR2 GPU but no game ever used it. There was a case for Shenmue but i don't remember if it was actually true.

A quick google search shows only the money in Shenmue II had bump maps.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1158710&postcount=23

Shenmue uses modifer volume's for Ryo's shadow during the day time. NPCs use those flat projected model shadows (like Model 2 fighters). During night, Ryo uses NPC style shadows, but he does produce shadows from up to two light sources.

Only the Xbox version of Shenmue II does shadows from buildings, the DC versions has some prebaked shadows on the ground near buildings. Both adjust lighting as the sun moves.

Shenmue II is the only game I know of to use the DC's normal/bump maps... on three coins. But the base texture on the coins have prebaked shadows and highlights. But at least they tried.

 

[HTupolev]

They didn't want to spend the time to do it. Factor 5 did what it did on cube in less than 18 months with rebel strike and and a year with the first title. They used this effect to no end and easily showed the system could. Devs never bothered or had the means to dig in to the architecture.

I thought the Rogue Squadron series was one whose games used extensive emboss mapping?

Not that it matters all *that* much. Letting normal maps respond to diffuse point lights and letting height maps respond to diffuse point lights is so close to being the same effect.

There are many games that used real normal mapping and even a few that used HDR lighitng which lot of individuals will not accept.

Wait, what? Which games used HDR? One of GC's weaknesses was lower precision than its competitors, which would have made HDR rendering sort of dangerous.

GC absolutely has games that use certain effects that are typically associated with HDR i.e. bloom, but you don't need HDR to do that. Plenty of LDR 6th-gen games make use of effects like that. Bloom usually looks a lot better when you render with higher dynamic range, but HDR isn't required for the effect, or for other things like light levels changing when you go from dark to bright areas.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Did not support? The TEV supported whatever the dev was willing program it to do.

I'm well aware of the natural ability of the GC and the Wii to do EMBM and that it is the most abundant texture effect observed in GC/Wii games, but that is another issue. He claimed that the Wii "couldn't" do normal mapping which was untrue. Even the GC could and did do normal mapping. There are many games that used real normal mapping and even a few that used HDR lighitng which lot of individuals will not accept.

One of the most insane statements i've seen on this thread. Cherry on top is how it personalises something that it's purely technical with "the a lot of individuals will not accept" like if we were disscussing opinions here.

How's realtime radiosity these days? Is it runing well on the GameCube also?

 

[Rolf NB]

Update? Did you guys learn new things about the Wii U GPU?

Nope.

 

[krizzx]

I thought the Rogue Squadron series was one whose games used extensive emboss mapping?

Not that it matters all *that* much. Letting normal maps respond to diffuse point lights and letting height maps respond to diffuse point lights is so close to being the same effect.


Wait, what? Which games used HDR? One of GC's weaknesses was lower precision than its competitors, which would have made HDR rendering sort of dangerous.

GC absolutely has games that use certain effects that are typically associated with HDR i.e. bloom, but you don't need HDR to do that. Plenty of LDR 6th-gen games make use of effects like that. Bloom usually looks a lot better when you render with higher dynamic range, but HDR isn't required for the effect, or for other things like light levels changing when you go from dark to bright areas.

I never said the GC used HDR. That is a mute argument.

I was talking about the Wii in the last sentence. I probably should have specified better but I didn't think it was necessary. It was readily available information and I have posted it before in this thread as well as the sources.

There are two released games I know of on the Wii that used HDR lighting. Dead Space Extraction, unless EA lied, (only "personally" noticed what looked like it in the battle with the Brute) and Cursed Mountain.

Unlike the Xbox, the GameCube didn't have the ability to calculate a dot product in the pixel pipe. So no, it couldn't do normal mapping as it's usually described.

As its usually described? Of course not. Its not a standard, usual, shading system, but there are many ways to achieve the same result in programming. Any hardware capable of bump mapping should also be capable of normal mapping to some degree, since coding wise, they are not "that" different. Normal mapping simply eats about 3 times as many resources. If I'm not mistaken, the GC did a lot of its geometry calculations on the CPU. I have to double check that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gekko_(microprocessor)
"The CPU made ground work for custom lighting and geometry effects and could burst compressed data directly to the GPU."

So if I'm not mistaken, it had to create it in conjunction with the CPU which required an entirely different way to go about coding it than on a standard shader like the one in the Xbox1.

I am certainly it was there. It stood out to me when I played them. You could see it on the snow in the hangar(the snow in the actual stages didn't seem to use it) and on the main human character models in the GC Rogue Squadron games.
http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/66396-StarWars_Rebel_Strike-6.jpg http://www.nintendo-difference.com/document/2056/unes/big_une.png
One of the devs for Factor 5 kind of referenced it in one their Lair interviews when talking about how other dev couldn't do things on the Wii that they were doing on the Gamecube at launch. http://www.ign.com/articles/2007/02/09/take-five-julian-eggebrecht, but they were using normal mapping in the Rogue Squadron games the last I checked.

 

[lwilliams3]

I never said the GC used HDR. That is a mute argument.

I was talking about the Wii in the last sentence. I probably should have specified better but I didn't think it was necessary. It was readily available information and I have posted it before in this thread as well as the sources.

There are two released games I know of on the Wii that used HDR lighting. Dead Space Extraction, unless EA lied, (only "personally" noticed what looked like it in the battle with the Brute) and Cursed Mountain.



As its usually described? Of course not. Its not a standard, usual, shading system, but there are many ways to achieve the same result in programming. Any hardware capable of bump mapping should also be capable of normal mapping to some degree, since coding wise, they are not "that" different. Normal mapping simply eats about 3 times as many resources. If I'm not mistaken, the GC did a lot of its geometry calculations on the CPU. I have to double check that.
So if I'm not mistaken, it had to create it in conjunction with the CPU which required an entirely different way to go about coding it than on a standard shader like the one in the Xbox1.

I am certainly it was there. It stood out to me when I played them. You could see it on the snow in the hangar(the snow in the actual stages didn't seem to use it) and on the main human character models in the GC Rogue Squadron games.
http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/66396-StarWars_Rebel_Strike-6.jpg http://www.nintendo-difference.com/document/2056/unes/big_une.png
One of the devs for Factor 5 kind of referenced it in one their Lair interviews when talking about how other dev couldn't do things on the Wii that they were doing on the Gamecube at launch. http://www.ign.com/articles/2007/02/09/take-five-julian-eggebrecht, but they were using normal mapping in the Rogue Squadron games the last I checked.

In either case, achieving normal mapping on the GCN/Wii was different and not nearly as simple as it is for the 360/PS3 (or the original Xbox), and the differences in the "shader" system made downports to the Wii difficult to do, and usually required another game engine to run the game.

Factor 5, though, was extremely good with the hardware and was able to do things in 18 months what other developers couldn't figure out (or bothered trying) to do on the Gamecube and Wii throughout their combined lifetime of 11 years.

 

[blu]

Unlike the Xbox, the GameCube didn't have the ability to calculate a dot product in the pixel pipe. So no, it couldn't do normal mapping as it's usually described.

I haven't done EMBM in ages, neither have I done this particular technique in practice, but it warrants mentioning that tangent-space DOT3 could be approximated via EMBM relatively simply if the pipeline supports per-vertex EMBM matrices. Of course that is not the case with Flipper (oh, vertex shaders, where art thou?)

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

That has nothing to do with opinion. There simply are no PCs out there that are able to produce graphics that are a generation ahead of the PS4.

Give it a year and we'll see.

 

[TheD]

Did not support? The TEV supported whatever the dev was willing program it to do.

I'm well aware of the natural ability of the GC and the Wii to do EMBM and that it is the most abundant texture effect observed in GC/Wii games, but that is another issue. He claimed that the Wii "couldn't" do normal mapping which was untrue. Even the GC could and did do normal mapping. There are many games that used real normal mapping and even a few that used HDR lighitng which lot of individuals will not accept.

The benefit of the TEV was that it could produce various texture effects with a lower resource cost, so even though the hardware in the Wii was no where near as strong as the PS3/360, it could still produce a lot of the same effects.

No!
The TEV is extremely limited in what it can do!
It is not a fully programmable GPU!
It can not do what ever the programmer wants!

 

[Xun]

Saw the video of Shadows of the Eternals, the most likely escenario is that it's runing on PC because of the nature of the project. Not becuase the Wii U couldn't run it, since at this stage it looks really mediocre and not even close above the best looking titles of this generation.

I agree with you, but when it comes to the lava shots I've yet to see anything on the PS3/360 that is at that level, so it's encouraging if this is truly Wii U footage.

 

[Rajack]

I agree with you, but when it comes to the lava shots I've yet to see anything on the PS3/360 that is at that level, so it's encouraging if this is truly Wii U footage.

Most of Dyack's stuff can look incredibly mediocre, but still need a beefy system to run, so yeah chances are its running on PC at the moment.

 

[Hermii]

Its cool that people are making games for the PC and Wii U and Nintendos outreach to indies are giving results, but I dont think that trailer is worth discussing before its confirmed to be Wii U footage. I predict there will be a lot more to discuss after the next Nintendo Direct.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Unlike the Xbox, the GameCube didn't have the ability to calculate a dot product in the pixel pipe. So no, it couldn't do normal mapping as it's usually described.

You could still do it. It just took the CPU in tandem to do so. Which is why it was rarely used. Too costly for little pay off.

 

[MDX]

No!
The TEV is extremely limited in what it can do!

It can not do what ever the programmer wants!

What do you base this on?

 

[lwilliams3]

You could still do it. It just took the CPU in tandem to do so. Which is why it was rarely used. Too costly for little pay off.

That makes sense. I believe it was common for Gekko/Broadway to help on certain tasks, so perhaps the Espresso will get a performance bump over Broadway in Actual CPU tasks due to Latte being a much more modern GPU.

What do you base this on?

It could be actual experience.

 

[TheD]

What do you base this on?

The fact that it has only 16 fixed function stages that could only take a limited number of inputs and do only a limited number of calculation types?
Even if you did not run into a blocker for what ever advanced effect you are trying to do it would be too slow due to having to multipass so many times.

You could still do it. It just took the CPU in tandem to do so. Which is why it was rarely used. Too costly for little pay off.

Well anything can do any effect on the CPU due to the fact CPUs have to be able to do any calculation (but nothing says it will do it fast).

 

[stanley1993]

Its cool that people are making games for the PC and Wii U and Nintendos outreach to indies are giving results, but I dont think that trailer is worth discussing before its confirmed to be Wii U footage. I predict there will be a lot more to discuss after the next Nintendo Direct.

If it really is built only for PC and Wii U, the difference arent going to be for much other than resolution. Just looking at the(what im guessing is rumor speculation) Console, PC combination it was probably built for the Wii U in mind. Looks great though.

 

[krizzx]

You could still do it. It just took the CPU in tandem to do so. Which is why it was rarely used. Too costly for little pay off.

This is exactly what I said in reply to him.

It could be actual experience.

I'd doubt that for the simple fact that he gives absolutely no solid reasons why nor does he provide and data/sources to back up the claim. I backed up all of my statements to best extent that I could.

Well anything can do any effect on the CPU due to the fact CPUs have to be able to do any calculation (but nothing says it will do it fast).

This contradicts your entire claim then, especially when you take into account that the CPUs of the GC/Wii were built to handle certain graphical calculations. You said it "can't" then say it can but just not as fast which is what I expressed to begin with.

If memory serves me correctly, ATI said that the Wii GPU was capable of HD output but it was firmware locked by Nintendo themselves. There was even a dev that actually got it to run a game at 1080p, though he said it ran it at 4 FPS. Technically, the Wii was an HD system in that regard. It just wasn't as fully capable the PS3/360.

So, as I originally stated, the Wii could produce pretty much any effect achieved on the PS3/360. It would just be at a smaller scale. There was an actual dev that said this when the Wii first launched.

 

[lightchris]

This is exactly what I said in reply to him.



I'd doubt that for the simple fact that he gives absolutely no reasons why nor does he provide and data/sources to back up the claim. I backed up all of my statements to best extent that I could.


This contradicts your entire claim then, expesially when you take into acoutn that the CPUs of the GC/Wii were built to handle certain graphical features. You said it "cant" then say it can but just not as fast which is what I expressed to begin with.

From how I unterstood it he said that the TEV can't do everything, not that it isn't possible at all.

In what way were Gekko and Broadway designed to specifically handle graphical features? Which are they?

If memory serves me correctly, ATI said that the Wii GPU was capable of HD output[...]

So were PS2 and Xbox (and nearly every PC GPU since 15 years). That really doesn't say anything.

So, as I originally stated, the Wii could produce pretty much any effect achieved on the PS3/360. It would just be at a smaller scale. There was an actual dev that said this when the Wii first launched.

If you really want to put it that way then yes, it could. But that goes for practically any console no matter the age. As was stated before, a CPU can generally do everything.

 

[Rolf NB]

CPUs cannot "help" with pixel shading in a forward renderer unless you implement the entire renderer on the CPU. It's not "helping" at this point anymore.
CPU "help" is practical for offloading vertex operations on almost any architecture.
CPU "help" is also practical for deferred shading or any other strictly screen-space post-process.

Gamecube and Wii never had the internal precision and required MRT support to make deferred shading work.

I'm pretty sure you can do dot products on Flipper, but it's not implemented as a basic operation. It doesn't even have horizontal accumulation. You'd have to blow at least three TEV stages (out of 16) to implement a single dot product.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Keep it up sir, just took 1 page to get the BSmeter where it never was before. The man never cease to amaze and outdones itself with the latest claim. And all the effort to prove absolutly nothing. XD

"the Wii could produce pretty much any effect achieved on the PS3/360."

What i love is that the technical savy, but with NIntendo inclinations, haven't step up to at least correct him, they just let the guy smear the thread with manure.

 

[lwilliams3]

This is exactly what I said in reply to him.



I'd doubt that for the simple fact that he gives absolutely no solid reasons why nor does he provide and data/sources to back up the claim. I backed up all of my statements to best extent that I could.


This contradicts your entire claim then, especially when you take into account that the CPUs of the GC/Wii were built to handle certain graphical calculations. You said it "can't" then say it can but just not as fast which is what I expressed to begin with.

If memory serves me correctly, ATI said that the Wii GPU was capable of HD output but it was firmware locked by Nintendo themselves. There was even a dev that actually got it to run a game at 1080p, though he said it ran it at 4 FPS. Technically, the Wii was an HD system in that regard. It just wasn't as fully capable the PS3/360.

So, as I originally stated, the Wii could produce pretty much any effect achieved on the PS3/360. It would just be at a smaller scale. There was an actual dev that said this when the Wii first launched.

What TheD said does not contradict his original post because he specifically addressing the TEVs by itself instead of the system as a whole. Also, I wouldn't call the Wii a HD system when it can run that resolution @ 4fps. With that definition, the PS2, GCN, and especially the original Xbox can be labeled as that as well.

 

[MDX]

What TheD said does not contradict his original post because he specifically addressing the TEVs by itself instead of the system as a whole. Also, I wouldn't call the Wii a HD system when it can run that resolution @ 4fps. With that definition, the PS2, GCN, and especially the original Xbox can be labeled as that as well.

We dont know what that person was running at 1080p.
And the OG Xbox and PS2 did have HD compatible games.

 

[MDX]

The fact that it has only 16 fixed function stages that could only take a limited number of inputs and do only a limited number of calculation types?
Even if you did not run into a blocker for what ever advanced effect you are trying to do it would be too slow due to having to multipass so many times.

Julian: Yes. I'm so disappointed knowing exactly what the Wii can do -- and I still think nobody knows it better than we (no pun intended) [laughs]. I really have to say, boy, am I disappointed! They all have finally figured out, five years into the hardware's life cycle, how to do at least basic shaders and a rim light, but that's what everybody does. But I still don't see enough bump and normal-mapping, if any. I still don't see enough post effects, although you would have insane fill-rates with Wii. I don't see any of that. I was digging out Rebel Strike the other day and was looking at it, and we had some people who were visiting ask, "Why isn't anybody else doing this on Wii?" And I am at a loss. I really am.

How do you know, if Factor5, or Nintendo, are the only ones who have pushed the machine? And what specific effect(s) are you talking about?

 

[krizzx]

What TheD said does not contradict his original post because he specifically addressing the TEVs by itself instead of the system as a whole. Also, I wouldn't call the Wii a HD system when it can run that resolution @ 4fps. With that definition, the PS2, GCN, and especially the original Xbox can be labeled as that as well.

It ran the game that the dev used to test it at 4 FPS. Logically, a smaller scale or better optimized game would get a better frame rate as frame rate are not an absolutely unchanging limit. How many times a gpu can render to a screen per second depends upon the amount of resources used by the hardware.

Generally, in my own personal testing, every time the resolution is bumped up a notch on the Wii hardware, the performance gets cut directly in half. I noticed this when forcing GC games that did not natively support 480p to run at 480p on the Wii. Following this logic, if forced 480p resulted in around 15 fps, then 720p would result in 7/8 fps and forced 1080p would result in 3/4 fps. This is what I conclude happened in the persons test. A game that was designed to run at 30 FPS was likely used for the test. Note, that this paragraph is all hypothetical based on my own observations.

We dont know what that person was running at 1080p.
And the OG Xbox and PS2 did have HD compatible games.

This is also true, though there was a trick to how the PS2 as it seems it could only do 1080i, not 720p or 1080p. I also read that it caused a lot of performance issues in the games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_games_with_HD_support

There were 4 ps2 games that could output at 1080i.

Pure logic and rationality would say that an all around stronger GPU could do so even better. Why people use no logic in circumstances like this is beyond me. Its like, where Nintendo hardware is concerned, no one sees or even looks for potential and possibilities. Instead they look to establish the lowest maximum they can derive. Such as in this case.

Frame rates are not set in stone. 4fps is the result of one mans test at the highest possible resolution for a game that likely far from optimized to that point, but the poster establishes this as if it the absolute, maximum limit of capability for the GPU and dismisses its usefulness with no other considerations. Why is this so prevalent in Nintendo related discussions?

Keep it up sir, just took 1 page to get the BSmeter where it never was before. The man never cease to amaze and outdones itself with the latest claim. And all the effort to prove absolutly nothing. XD

"the Wii could produce pretty much any effect achieved on the PS3/360."

What i love is that the technical savy, but with NIntendo inclinations, haven't step up to at least correct him, they just let the guy smear the thread with manure.

That's a very condescending and insulting passive aggressive post, and way to take my words out of context. You call my statement's BS but I see you posting nothing to the contrary where i actually back up what i said. Only belittling side remarks. Do you have some personal stake in this information being true/false? I find this type of behavior odd and kind of immature.

 

[ArchangelWest]

Well no matter how awesome Nintendos games will look at E3. I expect this to be the exact response to it.

Unfortunately, I think that you are correct. That's been the online 'set up' for months now, and is probably a large part of the reason that Nintendo said screw it to the main E3 presentation this year. Annoying.

 

[kevinski]

I'm pretty impressed at how much information a mere photo can hold in this respect. Could someone here explain how some of this information is being drawn? I mean, is it common for certain elements of a GPU to look a specific way, or are you looking for certain patterns in the layout or what? Very interesting, either way.

 

[My words exactly!]

About normal mapping and the Wii, i can say from experience that the system DOES support it. Even without SMGs and the Conduits there is a homebrew port of Quake on Wii that runs with much improved visuals, dynamic shadows and normal mapping:
http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54480

http://www.sd-engineering.nl/nmcube/01.jpg
http://www.sd-engineering.nl/nmcube/04.jpg
Anyone needing the homebrew app and can't find it, pm me.

 

[krizzx]

About normal mapping and the Wii, i can say from experience that the system DOES support it. Even without SMGs and the Conduits there is a homebrew port of Quake on Wii that runs with much improved visuals, dynamic shadows and normal mapping:
http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54480

Anyone needing the homebrew app and can't find it, pm me.

Thanks for the link. That thread was the only good thing I ever saw about Nintendo hardware from B3D. I was going to post this on the last page when I posted links Dewey's Adventure and Gladiator A.D./Tournament of the Gods, but I couldn't find the link. When I played the game, the walls beside the bridge in the first area stood out to me. They reminded me a lot of the walls in the first F.E.A.R. game when I first had it maxed out on my PC in the long, long ago. It saddened me to see no devs make use of normal mapping like that on the Wii. It had so much more capability than people gave it credit for.

I would certainly like to have the tools he used to make it. I also want to test my hypothesis on the resolution limits of the Hollywood GPU.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Everyone likes gifs!

If the best the Wii U can output is something that looks like this, I will be PERFECTLY happy - thrilled, maybe, with the Wii U's abilities. We're really reaching a point of diminishing returns, and this is still a major improvement over what last generation consoles could do.

 

[Wishmaster92]

If the best the Wii U can output is something that looks like this, I will be PERFECTLY happy - thrilled, maybe, with the Wii U's abilities. We're really reaching a point of diminishing returns, and this is still a major improvement over what last generation consoles could do.

Yeah i would be happy too. Hopefully this was running on wii u. Cant wait to see what the next zelda and metroid looks like.

 

[Gravijah]

If the best the Wii U can output is something that looks like this, I will be PERFECTLY happy - thrilled, maybe, with the Wii U's abilities. We're really reaching a point of diminishing returns, and this is still a major improvement over what last generation consoles could do.

Mehhh, we reached diminishing returns in the mid 90s. Let's go back to the Model 2!

 

[Hermii]

Mehhh, we reached diminishing returns in the mid 90s. Let's go back to the Model 2!

Lets go back to Vectrex. Vector graphics with overlays is the shit.

 

[Popstar]

I haven't done EMBM in ages, neither have I done this particular technique in practice, but it warrants mentioning that tangent-space DOT3 could be approximated via EMBM relatively simply if the pipeline supports per-vertex EMBM matrices. Of course that is not the case with Flipper (oh, vertex shaders, where art thou?)

I think you could approximate something using a light texture but you'd need to recompute it every time the light moved or viewpoint changed. Or something like that. It's been ages for me too.

 

[Oblivion]

If the best the Wii U can output is something that looks like this, I will be PERFECTLY happy - thrilled, maybe, with the Wii U's abilities. We're really reaching a point of diminishing returns, and this is still a major improvement over what last generation consoles could do.

Seriously, am I the only one not impressed by that trailer? It doesn't look like anything that wouldn't be capable of happening on the PS360.

It's not like we're talking about X here.

 

[AzaK]

I really don't understand why people would even entertain the idea that this is Wii u footage. What evidence is their other than desperate hope?

We need to wait until we hear confirmation because given everything we've seen on Wii U this footage likely isn't running on it.

 

[jaz013]

About normal mapping and the Wii, i can say from experience that the system DOES support it. Even without SMGs and the Conduits there is a homebrew port of Quake on Wii that runs with much improved visuals, dynamic shadows and normal mapping:
http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54480

http://www.sd-engineering.nl/nmcube/01.jpg
http://www.sd-engineering.nl/nmcube/04.jpg
Anyone needing the homebrew app and can't find it, pm me.

Those effects where possible using UNITY3D (yes, THAT Unity3D), you just needed a little tweaking. Why most developers choose the bland, lifeless approach we saw over and over is beyond me.

 

[frankie_baby]

I really don't understand why people would even entertain the idea that this is Wii u footage. What evidence is their other than desperate hope?

We need to wait until we hear confirmation because given everything we've seen on Wii U this footage likely isn't running on it.

Well dyack has been primarily (entirely?) a console developer

 

[LCGeek]

No, it´s not. The PS4 is able to produce graphics that are on par with todays high end PCs.
And yes, i play specs, specs are a huge part of what is going on on my TV.

Not really considering what epic mentioned about UE4 tech demo and need to removing lighting elements it can't touch anything in the high end area especially SLI if we are going down this road. The system has power but it can't touch the power of a system using a 7950/7970 and the cpu isn't all that great either.

PS4 is no slouch but if you were to start throwing certain task at it like mentioned it can't keep up with machines that are built well or extreme.

 

[FLAguy954]

I really don't understand why people would even entertain the idea that this is Wii u footage. What evidence is their other than desperate hope?

We need to wait until we hear confirmation because given everything we've seen on Wii U this footage likely isn't running on it.

I really don't understand why one wouldn't think this is Wii U footage. You must be blind or ignorant to think this is outside the capabilities of the Wii U. Hell, I'm sure the Wii U can do even better than what was shown even (the Wii U isn't even past year 2 yet).

 

[blu]

In what way were Gekko and Broadway designed to specifically handle graphical features? Which are they?

Gekko was indeed designed to help with the vertex processing. It does have dedicated features which allow it to send vertex data in any of the available Flipper-native formats, in the most efficient way possible. Whether that would be a big deal nowadays is another matter.

CPUs cannot "help" with pixel shading in a forward renderer unless you implement the entire renderer on the CPU. It's not "helping" at this point anymore.

That's not entirely true. Preliminary depth occlusion can be successfully done on the CPU (along with view clipping & culling) as a pre-pass to the actual GPU work. Actually, a few PS3 titles reply on that to achieve higher scene complexity, whereas on most other GPUs that would be done via occlusion queries done on the GPU (god bless the RSX).

 

[krizzx]

Those effects where possible using UNITY3D (yes, THAT Unity3D), you just needed a little tweaking. Why most developers choose the bland, lifeless approach we saw over and over is beyond me.

And yet, in this day and age, we still have people who still believe and insist that the Wii hardware can't do normal mapping at all. It saddens me when I read the last 2 pages.

 

[Mr. MondayNight]

I really don't understand why one wouldn't think this is Wii U footage. You must be blind or ignorant to think this is outside the capabilities of the Wii U. Hell, I'm sure the Wii U can do even better than what was shown even (the Wii U isn't even past year 2 yet).

Some people need to pretend the Wii U has been maxed out since day one, to fit their misguided idea of what "Next Gen" really is.