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[DirtyLarry]

Again: This was not a question. This was an information.

What??? This is the textbook definition of a question.

A question is defined as "a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information."
Was MS not getting information from the end user here?

If your argument is that people don't read and blindly click anything that appears on their computer screen then literally ANYTHING could have happened to their computer. If it wasn't this it would have been a malware popup, or an internet ad, or a file dialog asking them if they wanted to delete their personal documents or one of a million other things.

If you have no sense of personal responsibility or time to understand the actions that you're undertaking then you PROBABLY shouldn't be using a general purpose OS and instead be using something more specialized that is less complicated.

We have people supporting Trump for president in the United States and you are surprised there are people out there who do not read their computer screens? Really? And even further more you are going to take some elitist stand that those people do not have the right to use a computer if they want to??? Does everyone who drives a car needs to be a race car driver? Because that is sure how it sounds like to me.

And clearly you missed my entire point. Reading the message or not, this was designed with the intention to confuse people and/or to make them pick the choice MS wanted. As I said, there is simply no excuse, none, for making the universal button for close a window to all of a sudden not be close the window.

I work in a Fortune 100 company in IT and my departments main responsibility is to support the 10,000 or so Sales People for said company. i can promise you, absolutely promise you, that at least 50%, and I am being very generous, of those people cannot use a computer but are asked to do so. And they also do not read jack shit. Because of this fact, absolutely everything we do is kept with this in mind. "Make It Idiot Proof." That is because we recognize the fact that most people using computers are not experts and indeed do not read anything. So while you live in the land of make believe insisting everyone should have a Masters Degree in computing in order to use a computer, which by the way that stance is really easy to take on a website that I would say it is pretty safe to say most members of are more computer literate than the average user, I will continue recognizing the fact that the majority of computer users are not savvy at all, and that software companies the world round usually develop all of their user Interfaces with this in mind. And that there is no question in mind that Microsoft, who makes the OS that is most commonly used by these people who are not savvy, knows this more than anyone else. And again, they took advantage of this fact.

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

Quick question for those that auto-upgraded from Win 7/8 -> 10. Is there an EULA popup that lets you agree/decline. I'd imagine that would be the last catch-all and if MS doesn't have it...

 

[BleedOrange]

People don't read, and if a company takes advantage of that to try to force unwanted software on their computer, then that's scummy, deceitful, and malicious, and that's exactly what happened here.

I have a feeling these are the same type of people that have 800 toolbars installed in IE and all sorts of crapware installed via default installer options. Aren't these exactly the type of users that would benefit from MS trying to move away from these sorts of things?

So while you live in the land of make believe insisting everyone should have a Masters Degree in computing in order to use a computer

I guess I'll just have to fundamentally disagree with you on what sort of user effort is required to read a dialog, requiring a Masters Degree certainly is a bit much!

In any case. I'll see myself out. I've derailed this thread too much.

 

[univbee]

Quick question for those that auto-upgraded from Win 7/8 -> 10. Is there an EULA popup that lets you agree/decline.

Not until the upgrade itself is done, at least. It does it's "we're installing updates" auto-reboot, and reboots to the in-place upgrade process screen, and doesn't ask you anything else until the process is done.

 

[Gren]

Jeez, I wonder if some of you would still think MS is totally blameless should one of your own less-savvy friends/family members succumb to an unsanctioned upgrade.

 

[univbee]

I have a feeling these are the same type of people that have 800 toolbars installed in IE and all sorts of crapware installed via default installer options. Aren't these exactly the type of users that would benefit from MS trying to move away from these sorts of things?

The thing is a lot people don't really have a need to know how to fix their computer or how to do anything more than the specific tasks for their computer to work, and computers themselves aren't an "opt out" thing these days (e.g. you pretty much can't apply for a job without a computer with internet access anymore).

My parents, and most users I support at work, are pretty technically hopeless in terms of the particular workings of their computer but they can accomplish some pretty impressive wizardry in the software itself they're using (e.g. Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, Quickbooks, Photoshop etc.) and in almost all cases know these programs far better than I do. They tend not to install software, they stick with what they use and works for them, and most of their software non-intrusively auto-updates as required to maintain security. Hell, iPads have been gaining in popularity for home use in large part because of this increased simplicity, at least when the applications aren't too cumbersome for touch use or whatever.

Microsoft's tactics are encouraging people to avoid ALL updates because people don't want to change their workflow, especially since the W7->W10 transition brings absolutely nothing for the bulk of users out there and is a step backwards if anything. The last time this happened, when certain XP product keys were blacklisted and blocked from installing service packs, this resulted in a huge number of computers in areas like China never getting updates and becoming botnet city and largely responsible for things like the large spam volumes going around today.

 

[Diffense]

@DirtyLarry

Yes, the most normal way to handle this which would be fair to users would be to have the OK and Cancel buttons beside each other rather than two OK buttons. Right away, that goes against the convention of pairing Yes/No and OK/Cancel etc and puts extra burden on the user to find a way to do what they want.

If they decide that they don't see their desired option and click the X to dismiss the unwelcome window without doing anything they actually fall right into the trap. Since the upgrade had already been scheduled AUTOMATICALLY the onus is on the user to cancel it whether they realize it or not. Meanwhile they've been presented with a box which does not make that option clear. It's buried in text and the clickable highlighted word is "here" not "cancel" (really WTF).

This UI is clearly NOT designed from a neutral perspective. It shouldn't be hard to guess what MS wants the user to do. The upgrade was "recommended" automatically and there are three ways to upgrade and one comparatively hidden way to cancel the upgrade. So when the design is clearly engineered to achieve this it's no surprise when it works as intended and some users accidentally upgrade.

 

[jay]

MS knows what they are doing. The arguments of personal responsibility are entirely moot.

 

[univbee]

Windows 10 is objectively not beneficial to the vast, vast majority of end users when compared to Windows 7 or 8.1. If it were, Microsoft wouldn't need to resort to shady tactics in order to convince people to perform (unprecedented) free upgrades to their new OS. Compare and contrast to OS X, where people seldom have to hold fire on major OS upgrades for very long because their workflow doesn't significantly change from one version to the next. Someone who had OS X 10.4 several years ago is really not going to be lost at all on 10.11.

Going from Windows 9x to XP made sense, as the 9x core was terrible. Unfortunately, XP's security model sucked, which resulted in many delays and Vista changing a lot of its workflow function out of necessity because XP's workflow made it malware central. Unfortunately Microsoft got screwed by OEM's who forced them into allowing them to sell Vista machines with 512 megs of RAM resulting in "omg Vista is unusably slow garbage" (Vista SP2 on a system with like 4 gigs of RAM works really well but the rep damage was done) so then 7 came along and brought other improvements with it like XP Mode so those stuck with older IE-requiring intranets could still upgrade.

And now, Microsoft simply doesn't have anything interesting to offer to entice people past Windows 7, and this is made worse by the fact that all of the new features are transparently for Microsoft's benefit and not the end user's.

 

[RionaaM]

There is no known universe that anyone can actually defend with a straight face what MS has done here. None.

Let's break it down as simple as possible.

We can all agree that Microsoft was presenting users with a choice. Right?
But a simple breakdown of the composition and the layout shows that in fact they were doing everything they could to assure that person would have a difficult time choosing the No portion of the choice being presented.

First, they buried the No option among lines of text. On it's own away from all other "buttons." It also is just text and not a button. People can try and use the excuse that it is the end users fault for not reading that text but that is bullshit to anyone who works in computers and knows the actions of your typical end user. They absolutely DO NOT read text, and MS was clearly counting on this fact.

Then instead of offering a simple Yes or No choice side by side, instead it was a Yes / Yes choice. And please make note, the one choice they actually wanted people to choose is the only button to be chosen. I mean cmon, seriously. Is that not enough to prove this was intentional?

Finally in way is the most egregious offense of them all, they took what is universally known as the exit of out of the Window and make no choice button to actually be the choice they wanted button.

There is just no excuse for this. Simply none. Anyone trying to say there is just is either blinded by loyalty to MS and/or simply just does not know anything about UI design.

This is as intentional as it gets. It is downright blatant.

This is a fantastic post, and you said it way better than I did before. Still, I think you're underselling MS's awful practices with your image. Not only was the cancel link buried in a sea of text, but there were also two sentences in a bigger font nearby, one of which was in the same color as the link. Not to mention the check marks below, with more useless text.

This is terrible, however you look at it. I really fail to understand how can someone defend this. I mean, yeah, I can kinda see why someone may have liked the original Xbox One plans, even if I think they were full of shit. But this? It boggles my mind.

This is literally worse than those installers that add the Ask Toolbar to your browser. At least that checkbox wasn't hidden as hard as the Windows 10 cancel update link:

When your OS, which is supposed to be the one application you can trust, tricks you in a worse way than a freaking browser toolbar, you know somebody screwed up bad.

If your argument is that people don't read and blindly click anything that appears on their computer screen then literally ANYTHING could have happened to their computer. If it wasn't this it would have been a malware popup, or an internet ad, or a file dialog asking them if they wanted to delete their personal documents or one of a million other things.

If you have no sense of personal responsibility or time to understand the actions that you're undertaking then you PROBABLY shouldn't be using a general purpose OS and instead be using something more specialized that is less complicated.

I love how Windows is now supposed to be this overly complicated OS that only experts and English Majors are able to use. Could you be any more full of shit?

 

[Theanine3D]

I had something very similar happen to me. Except I had already upgraded to Windows 10 without issue. What happened was, a regularly scheduled minor update to Windows 10 months after I'd already upgraded ended up behaving as a "clean install," and the drive was formatted. It showed no signs or warnings that it was going to do this. It just told me an update had been downloaded and asked me to restart, so I did. Then on restart, the upgrade loading screen appeared instead of the usual minor update one. It started wiping my partitions.

I thankfully had a recent backup of nearly all of my files, but it was still frustrating. Wasted an entire day just trying to put everything back to how it was. This is why I don't trust Windows 10 - the one thing that it forces on me, automatic updates, I can't even trust to not destroy all of my work.

 

[univbee]

I had something very similar happen to me. Except I had already upgraded to Windows 10 without issue. What happened was, a regularly scheduled minor update to Windows 10 months after I'd already upgraded ended up behaving as a "clean install," and the drive was formatted. It showed no signs or warnings that it was going to do this. It just told me an update had been downloaded and asked me to restart, so I did. Then on restart, the upgrade loading screen appeared instead of the usual minor update one. It started wiping my partitions.

I thankfully had a recent backup of nearly all of my files, but it was still frustrating. Wasted an entire day just trying to put everything back to how it was. This is why I don't trust Windows 10 - the one thing that it forces on me, automatic updates, I can't even trust to not destroy all of my work.

In all likelihood this was the November 2015 major update (basically Windows 10's version of a service pack) which behaves identically to an in-place upgrade (3ish gig download and all) and clearly its installer gets mad if you have multiple partitions, which is something they really need to figure out, at least giving some sort of manual partition manager and a clear "we're nuking this partition, this is what its root folder looks like, are you sure yes/no" pop-up.

 

[DeepEnigma]

In what way? That you should be able and willing to read in order to operate a computer?

Seems MSFT doesn't think one needs to read, according to all the updates being done by them, automatically. How ironic, eh?

Why, in your opinion, is there not a "cancel upgrade" button next to the "okay" button?

Would that have been overly clear?

That would be less MAU's.

 

[hlhbk]

People don't read, and if a company takes advantage of that to try to force unwanted software on their computer, then that's scummy, deceitful, and malicious, and that's exactly what happened here.

At what point is there accountability to the fact people don't read?

 

[hlhbk]

Jeez, I wonder if some of you would still think MS is totally blameless should one of your own less-savvy friends/family members succumb to an unsanctioned upgrade.

My dad called me last night due to a "unsanctioned upgrade" he had shut down mid install. He was lucky enough that the install rolled back to Windows 7. At no point did I blame Microsoft, and in fact told him he needs to make sure he reads the message next time.

 

[mckmas8808]

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

Check out this shit that greeted my work computer this morning upon boot.

That's 13 minutes 38 seconds. Click 'I need more time'

Click 'reschedule'...

And there it is, the only way to cancel

 

[Crayon]

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

Not being in the boiling frog scenario myself, this would look like... completely out of control behavior from my computer.

 

[Diffense]

From that thread I learned that there was an earlier upgrade prompt that you had to cancel by clicking X since there was no other way.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=204449133#post204449133
With the new window, clicking X confirms the upgrade...lol

 

[AU Tiger]

Let me get this straight, you have a work laptop with a years worth of work that hasn't had a backup in a year... I mean were you just waiting for the first thing to destroy your work?

What about a fire? Flood? Electrical short to your laptop? Dead HDD?

There is simply no excuse to not have a backup for your data in 2016.

Took the words out of my mouth. As bad as a situation as it is with this happening without your say so, not backing up that much data for that long and it being that critical is a textbook example of why backing up is important.

There are simply too many free options out there to NOT backup at least a few gigs of extremely important files. Google drive, microsoft skydrive, drop box, etc all give you free storage that is easy to use and automatic so you don't have to remind yourself to run backups. Automation is the key because (as you have unfortunately discovered) humans forget.

If you have a USB drive or thumb drive, you can grab something like VEEAM Endpoint backup which is really handy, easy to setup and works very well for scheduling backups. It's what I use and has come in handy in events that I've accidentally deleted files or needed to go back and restore a single file from 5 or 6 days prior. It keeps a user-defined number of days worth of backups so I have mine set for 14 days.

Do yourself a favor and grab this and schedule your computer to backup whatever you want over to a USB drive or into a google/dropbox/etc drive that syncs automatically to the cloud.

https://www.veeam.com/endpoint-backup-free.html

 

[R_thanatos]

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

The cancel button is only hidden behind 4 pages. look how easy it is to cancel !!

Spoiler

Apologises to anyone witha broken sarcasm -o-metter

 

[Dick Justice]

Thank GWX I haven't had to put up with this horseshit.

 

[Dyson Industries]

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

Microsoft. Not even once.

 

[Kindekuma]

That's why I have two, some times a third back up. You NEVER know what could happen that can end up in data loss.

 

[RionaaM]

The cancel button is only hidden behind 4 pages. look how easy it is to cancel !!

Spoiler

Apologises to anyone witha broken sarcasm -o-metter

It's totally the user's fault for not disassembling the executable and checking the source code, of course! They should have bought a second PC just to be safe.

 

[jjasso21]

Definitely sucks for the forced upgrade. But as someone who works in IT, you should always back up any important files. Usually you have a share/space in which you can save important documents, in fact is is recommended. You may lose a few hours of work, but we would have been able to pull up a copy of all of your files from that day, if not the day before. Even though it isn't directly relatted, I've seen hard drives fail in which the user lost a lot of data due to hard drive failure. But in those cases Spinrite and even booting into linux can help.

 

[Theanine3D]

Microsoft adopting a common adware/malware tactic to push Windows 10 on people sure is gross.
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/...clicking-red-x-close-button-in-prompt-message

How anyone can defend this is baffling to me.

 

[KaoteK]

Does the OP really need to be scolded like a naughty child countless times for not backing up his data? He said in his original post he knows he messed up, he doesn't need to be reminded again and again.

As for Microsoft, this shit is shady no question.
You'd think if win 10 was really that great they wouldn't need to resort to underhand tactics like this to boost their install base numbers.

 

[hlhbk]

Does the OP really need to be scolded like a naughty child countless times for not backing up his data? He said in his original post he knows he messed up, he doesn't need to be reminded again and again.

As for Microsoft, this shit is shady no question.
You'd think if win 10 was really that great they wouldn't need to resort to underhand tactics like this to boost their install base numbers.

By default since Windows XP all Microsoft updates have been set to automatically download and install at 3 AM every Wednesday. A Window would always come up letting you know updates were being installed. If you closed that window it doesn't stop the execution of that task. It still updates and reboots at 3 AM. This isn't a new practice. The only difference is that instead of a normal Windows update Microsoft is giving away their latest version of Windows for free.

Either way it is on the user to know what is happening with their PC and more importantly to back up their data in the event something would happen (HDD failure, malware, Windows failure, natural disaster, etc). The fact the data wasn't backed up is as big of a deal as the upgrade being installed if not way more.

 

[mneuro]

The only difference is that instead of a normal Windows update Microsoft is giving away their latest version of Windows for free.

Man, that is a really great deal. Who cares if they are taking away the OS I paid for and already enjoyed using. Good job, Microsoft!

 

[DeepEnigma]

Man, that is a really great deal. Who cares if they are taking away the OS I paid for and already enjoyed using. Good job, Microsoft!

I chuckled, because it is so true, lol.

 

[hlhbk]

Man, that is a really great deal. Who cares if they are taking away the OS I paid for and already enjoyed using. Good job, Microsoft!

They aren't taking away anything. Read the pop up that comes up, take action, and keep the O/S you want.

 

[Demigod Mac]

Just the idea of having decades worth of data stored in one place, and one place only terrifies me.

 

[RexNovis]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the helpful info in this thread I have tried a number of the other things mentioned here. testdisk.de was able to restore the original partition but many of the files (all the docx files) are still unreadable for some reason. So while I was able to restore most of the data I lost more than 70% of it is currently inaccessible. I think it might have to do with my doing a fresh OS install on the primary drive so the windows installation is not the same but I am not sure about that its just a theory.

I'm currently looking into some conversion programs in hopes that converting the docx files into another format might restore access. Again thank you all for your tips and advice.

Go here and see if there's an existing recovery key for your computer first http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=237614

Thanks for this! unfortunately this didnt bear any fruit. I do appreciate the tip though.

 

[msv]

They aren't taking away anything. Read the pop up that comes up, take action, and keep the O/S you want.

There is an established way of doing things, i.e. clear language and clear yes/no option. Microsoft is not following that procedure. This is the fault of Microsoft. It's crazy that you're comparing small upgrades to a complete new install of an OS. One that formats goddamn partitions without so much as a prompt. You couldn't be more in the wrong here.

Would you be okay with some random software giving you pop ups regularly that will install adware if you don't go through several pages of text with an obscured path to cancel? You really think that software itself shouldn't be counted as adware?

 

[mneuro]

They aren't taking away anything. Read the pop up that comes up, take action, and keep the O/S you want.

Thankfully the OS I want is Linux (Ubuntu currently). Don't have to worry about forced anything.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

Hell no it isn't reasonable.

 

[RionaaM]

There is an established way of doing things, i.e. clear language and clear yes/no option. Microsoft is not following that procedure. This is the fault of Microsoft. It's crazy that you're comparing small upgrades to a complete new install of an OS. One that formats goddamn partitions without so much as a prompt. You couldn't be more in the wrong here.

Would you be okay with some random software giving you pop ups regularly that will install adware if you don't go through several pages of text with an obscured path to cancel? You really think that software itself shouldn't be counted as adware?

It's even worse than your example, because that adware would always be advertised in the same way, in the same spot (for example, a small checkbox in the middle of the pop-up). Here the update pop-up used to require the X button to be canceled (which many people got used to doing automatically every day), until one day it suddenly turned to click X to accept, stealthily changing the rules of the game. You can't honestly expect people to read the (supposedly) same message each time.

It's funny when the worst analogy one can come up with is actually more benign than the real case. And by funny I mean it's a shit show.

 

[Roshin]

The only difference is that instead of a normal Windows update Microsoft is giving away their latest version of Windows for free.

An OS update some people don't want and never asked for. Forcing it upon you is not the same as "giving it away".

 

[KaoteK]

By default since Windows XP all Microsoft updates have been set to automatically download and install at 3 AM every Wednesday. A Window would always come up letting you know updates were being installed. If you closed that window it doesn't stop the execution of that task. It still updates and reboots at 3 AM. This isn't a new practice. The only difference is that instead of a normal Windows update Microsoft is giving away their latest version of Windows for free.

Either way it is on the user to know what is happening with their PC and more importantly to back up their data in the event something would happen (HDD failure, malware, Windows failure, natural disaster, etc). The fact the data wasn't backed up is as big of a deal as the upgrade being installed if not way more.

Yes that's true, but until 10 you had control over your updates (one of the reasons I'm not changing) besides are we really going to start calling an OS upgrade an update now? It's shady as fuck.

 

[Cipherr]

OP losing his work is as much his fault as it is Microsoft's.

If it wasn't Microsoft that did it then it could have been any number of things to lose his data. Hell all it takes is one guy stealing his work laptop....

Jesus Christ some of you guys will do and say anything.... Anything to prevent from having to admit a corporation you like screwed up. I really don't understand the drive to do that. Someone possibly loses something important to them and you are more concerned with finding a way to divert and parcel out blame elsewhere based on a hypothetical that didn't actually take place.

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

Hell no.... That's straight up adware, shitty download website levels of nonsense.

Hope the tech press continues to call them out on this bullshit man.

 

[driver116]

They aren't taking away anything. Read the pop up that comes up, take action, and keep the O/S you want.

Microsoft are exploiting user habits to get what they want. Habit's which they have manufactured and magnified themselves from countless intrusive pop-ups over the past year. Unfortunatley people's, customers, expectations have been disregarded in favour of this system, which is a huge let down as a Windows user. It is a trick, a con and is an exploitation of their consumers, pure and simple.

 

[bes.gen]

Microsoft are exploiting user habits to get what they want. Habit's which they have manufactured and magnified themselves from countless intrusive pop-ups over the past year. Unfortunatley people's, customers, expectations have been disregarded in favour of this system, which is a huge let down as a Windows user. It is a trick, a con and is an exploitation of their consumers, pure and simple.

exactly.
seeing people trying to defend this blatant shit is almost as infuriating as whats ms is doing.

really hoping for a damaging class action suit (at least from eu side)

 

[univbee]

really hoping for a damaging class action suit (at least from eu side)

It'd be really interesting from a legal precedent standpoint since I don't think there's any equivalent situation which has existed in the past. But they nailed Microsoft with a 550 million Euro fine for "forgetting" to show the browser choice screen when Windows 7 Service Pack 1 was released for about 13 months so I believe in the power of the EU.

 

[bigmit3737]

How I prevent an auto update?
I have windows 7 on my laptop and I'm don't want to update.


Thanks.

 

[univbee]

How I prevent an auto update?
I have windows 7 on my laptop and I'm don't want to update.


Thanks.

Short of running an Enterprise version, or a Pro version joined to a domain, there's no reliable way unfortunately, Microsoft actively counters most workarounds (e.g. force-resetting registry options, re-pushing specific updates which resets blocks).

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

They aren't taking away anything. Read the pop up that comes up, take action, and keep the O/S you want.

I agree with you man... Way too many people just randomly click through things without reading them on the internet these days like it isn't important. In the OP's case if he took that extra 5 secs to read the Windows 10 prompt this whole thing could've been avoided.

 

[univbee]

They aren't taking away anything.

Well, Windows Media Center, sucks for people running media center PC's.

And there's no way to tell it reliably "never bother me ever again". If you click "cancel update" it'll come back at some point. It's basically like keeping a dog away from your plate of food.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Jesus Christ some of you guys will do and say anything.... Anything to prevent from having to admit a corporation you like screwed up. I really don't understand the drive to do that. Someone possibly loses something important to them and you are more concerned with finding a way to divert and parcel out blame elsewhere based on a hypothetical that didn't actually take place.

Gamers have a lot of experience with this kind of thing.

 

[dmix90]

So you guys really think this is reasonable?

Hell no. W10 is great but these forced update shenanigans are disgusting.

Microsoft:

 

[univbee]

W10 is great

It's not a meaningful improvement over Windows 7 for the vast majority of people, though, which is the big issue.