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Wkd BO 8•04-06•17 - Man in Black kidnaps #1, Dun' not done son, Woman nears $400m DOM

J

jett

D-Member
jmizzal said:
Yup cuz he looked older then

62bac14e3859758ad47af8cfe3fef80c--tom-cruise-michael-mann.jpg


I know they made him look older for the movie
Click to expand...

I've always found it funny how Cruise refused to dye his hair for the movie and just wore a wig.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Like, okay... let's take return on investment. Forbes crunched those numbers.

9. Jennifer Lawrence ($17.70 on every $1 paid)
9. Matt Damon ($17.70)
8. Robert Downey Jr. ($18.40)
7. Ben Affleck ($20.10)
6. Jennifer Aniston ($27.80)
5. Vin Diesel ($32)
4. Mila Kunis ($49.50)
3. Scarlett Johansson ($88.60)
2. Chris Pratt ($125.40)
1. Chris Evans ($135.80)

So, pick a metric.
 
3

3N16MA

Banned
Star power exists but it is there for only a select few and not as powerful as some think. It's overblown in that some people think it's obtainable after a couple of hits. That Chris Pratt can turn out hits based on his name or Scarlett Johansson is a draw based on one hit outside the MCU.
 
B

Boke1879

Member
Boyega won't be a draw to most movies.

But Star Wars has most likely given him a solid career from here on it. Dude will always find work.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Like, okay... let's take return on investment. Forbes crunched those numbers.

9. Jennifer Lawrence ($17.70 on every $1 paid)
9. Matt Damon ($17.70)
8. Robert Downey Jr. ($18.40)
7. Ben Affleck ($20.10)
6. Jennifer Aniston ($27.80)
5. Vin Diesel ($32)
4. Mila Kunis ($49.50)
3. Scarlett Johansson ($88.60)
2. Chris Pratt ($125.40)
1. Chris Evans ($135.80)

So, pick a metric.
Click to expand...

That's a poor metric that doesn't account for variables such as the type of film they've been in, whether they were the lead actor, if they had an ensemble cast or not, if the film was part of franchise or a Brand, etc....

Unless you think Jennifer Anniston and Mila Kunis in any list discussing Box office draws helps your argument.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
lightskintwin said:
No they're not. And repeating it doesn't make it true.
Click to expand...

I think the disagreement here is regarding the extent their presence translates into increased audience.

That extent is much reduced. It's obviously not completely missing. It's still there. But it's no longer a primary factor.

Branding has more or less replaced "star power" as a primary draw. People still care who is going to be in their movies, but at this point, that presence is considered bonus. If a movie's branding (and/or presence and marketing) is strong enough, people will show up regardless the stars.

And if the movie isn't appealing in that premise or the marketing, the star power is no longer enough to carry a film past those negatives.

I feel like Passengers might be a good example here. Pratt & Lawrence at Christmas = #3 Opening Weekend. Less than $20mil domestic.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
lightskintwin said:
That's a poor metric that doesn't account for variables such as the type of film they've been in, whether they were the lead actor, if they had an ensemble cast or not, if the film was part of franchise or a Brand, etc....

Unless you think Jennifer Anniston and Mila Kunis in any list discussing Box office draws helps your argument.
Click to expand...

I'm saying return on investment offers up a list of actors and actresses who very few would call box office draws. And that's just one metric.

But you haven't offered up any other metric. I even gave you some options. What do you want? Box office by actor in comparison to Rotten Tomatoes score? Pure profit by the same? What films do you want to drill down into if certain films don't count?

Bobby Roberts said:
That extent is much reduced. It's obviously not completely missing. It's still there. But it's no longer a primary factor.

Branding has more or less replaced "star power" as a primary draw. People still care who is going to be in their movies, but at this point, that presence is considered bonus. If a movie's branding (and/or presence and marketing) is strong enough, people will show up regardless the stars.

And if the movie isn't appealing in that premise or the marketing, the star power is no longer enough to carry a film past those negatives.
Click to expand...

Exaaaaaactly. As I said earlier, a well-executed movie with a good hook will perform well.

3N16MA said:
Star power exists but it is there for only a select few and not as powerful as some think. It's overblown in that some people think it's obtainable after a couple of hits. That Chris Pratt can turn out hits based on his name or Scarlett Johansson is a draw based on one hit outside the MCU.
Click to expand...

It's not very powerful at all for most actors and actresses, if you crunch the number a few different ways.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
MHWilliams said:
I'm saying return on investment offers up a list of actors and actresses who very few would call box office draws.

But you haven't offered up any other metric. I even gave you some options.
Click to expand...

An article from 2014 from Variety

Why Denzel Washington May Be the Last Pure Movie Star
”He's a name people trust," said Phil Contrino, vice president and chief analyst at BoxOffice.com. ”He is a brand. Really, it's no different than Marvel or Pixar. People hear Denzel Washington and they show up."

Over three decades in the film business, Washington's films have generated north of $3 billion at the global box office, but he's put up those lofty numbers in a unique way. At the age of 59, he is launching his first franchise with ”The Equalizer," an adaptation of the CBS action series that Sony, the studio behind the film, hopes will inspire a sequel.

That's a long time to go without starring in a film that has a numeral in the title. Consider Washington's fellow A-listers — George Clooney has the ”Oceans 11" films, Tom Cruise anchors the ”Mission: Impossible" series, Robert Downey Jr. has two franchises with ”Sherlock Holmes" and ”Iron Man" and Johnny Depp has one in ”Pirates of the Caribbean" and is trying to kick off another when the sequel to ”Alice in Wonderland" hits theaters in 2016.

Washington has also been able to outlast actors from his generation, including past co-stars such as Tom Hanks and Julia Roberts, who have seen their box office powers wane over the past 10 years. Contrino says the only actor with a similar appeal has been Adam Sandler, who had a torrid run throughout much of the aughts, but lately has been striking out as often as scoring with audiences.

Consistency has been the hallmark of Washington's career. His movies have never been billion dollar grossers, and only four have topped $100 million stateside. Instead of being crafted to sell toy lines or comicbooks, they've encapsulated a range of genres, many of them geared at adults, a demographic studios often ignore. Some, such as ”Deja Vu" or ”The Book of Eli," are formulaic and instantly forgettable, but most are profitable. Through it all, Washington's movies have relied on his name as the guarantor of a good time.

”He's very good at mixing it up and he's absolutely believable in every role he's been in," said Rory Bruer, president of domestic distribution at Sony Pictures. ”He's one of those actors audiences totally embrace and he's somebody who embodies our best values across all races, sexes and creeds."
Click to expand...
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
That Variety article itself seems to concede the fact that branding has replaced star power as the primary draw with filmgoers. The thrust is that Denzel is the only actor left who has managed to survive that industry shift with his pull intact.

That doesn't support the notion that star power is a thing. It suggests that Washington is the exception to the new rule.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
MHWilliams said:
So why is your article better than any of the others I posted that actually looked at the numbers?
Click to expand...

Because it's more to the truth than your list that has Jennifer Aniston and Mila Kunis in the Top 10. LOL

Bobby Roberts said:
That Variety article itself seems to concede the fact that branding has replaced star power as the primary draw with filmgoers.
Click to expand...

But do you agree with their assessment that Denzel is a brand himself?
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
MHWilliams said:
I picked a randomly metric to show you the weird ass names that pop up when you crunch the numbers.

And again, you offer nothing.
Click to expand...

I offered common sense, and you're stlill running with that poor metric of a list. Unless you can explain why Jennifer Aniston and Mila Kunis aren't leading any Movies, but Denzel still is.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
lightskintwin said:
But do you agree with their assessment that Denzel is a brand himself?
Click to expand...

Not really.

Did we all take this super long walk just to defend the notion Denzel Washington still has some star power?

I mean, yeah, he does. Is it worth as much as "star power" used to be? No, not really. Industry wide, that's a fairly obvious conclusion to draw. So obvious that even in the industry article citing industry experts regarding Denzel's maintaining of some modicum of old-school "star power," the point of comparison places him in a lesser position to the factor that's cleanly replaced it.

The article you presented only works if you agree with the argument Mike & I are pushing: Star Power as a primary box-office factor has declined and been replaced with branding. In order to buy into the notion that Washington's held onto his power more than other actors, you have to simultaneously agree that all the other actors HAVE lost it because Star Power in general isn't even a thing so much anymore.
 
R

RBelong2Us

Member
I don't know where this discussion is heading but all I argued was that if Kevin Hart is considered a draw then so should Denzel, definitely not a fading draw.

Whatever pay Denzel demands doesn't question that he brings in a consistent box office take .
 
C

crazy monkey

Banned
kswiston said:
Worldwide updates

Despicable Me 3 - $879M (now the top gross of the summer)
Wonder Woman - $794M
Pirates 5 - $781M
Spider-Man Homecoming - $671M
Transformers 5 - $583M
Dunkirk - $314M
Cars 3 - $286M
War for the Planet of the Apes - $278M
Baby Driver - $155M

Also from the last thread, Wolf Warrior 2 has now grossed $469M in China after a second weekend of $162M (giving it the largest second weekend in a single territory). Domestically the film has made $1M in two weekends.
Click to expand...

and people wonder why we get so much minions lol
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Bobby Roberts said:
Not really.

Did we all take this super long walk just to defend the notion Denzel Washington still has some star power?

I mean, yeah, he does. Is it worth as much as "star power" used to be? No, not really. Industry wide, that's a fairly obvious conclusion to draw. So obvious that even in the industry article citing industry experts regarding Denzel's maintaining of some modicum of old-school "star power," the point of comparison places him in a lesser position to the factor that's cleanly replaced it.

The article you presented only works if you agree with the argument Mike & I are pushing: Star Power as a primary box-office factor has declined and been replaced with branding. In order to buy into the notion that Washington's held onto his power more than other actors, you have to simultaneously agree that all the other actors HAVE lost it because Star Power in general isn't even a thing so much anymore.
Click to expand...

My disagreement is only that Denzel doesn't have Star Power when he does. Yet people keep pulling these actors that have been in franchises and brands, and Denzel hasn't and is still leading films that are successful at the box office. The next Equalizer will be his first sequel to any film ever in his 3 decade career.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
lightskintwin said:
My disagreement is only that Denzel doesn't have Star Power when he does
Click to expand...

but the argument isn't even that Star Power is non-existent, just that it's been replaced by other factors. It's obviously still there to some extent, but that extent is definitely lessened. And it is. Denzel can't be the exception to the rule (as your Variety example claims) without acknowledging that there's a new rule he's excepting, right?
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Bobby Roberts said:
but the argument isn't even that Star Power is non-existent, just that it's been replaced by other factors. It's obviously still there to some extent, but that extent is definitely lessened. And it is. Denzel can't be the exception to the rule (as your Variety example claims) without acknowledging that there's a new rule he's excepting, right?
Click to expand...

No doubt.. but right now I'm just arguing for Denzel which it seems you agree with me about, so I'll just take it. LOL
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
lightskintwin said:
I offered common sense, and you're stlill running with that poor metric of a list. Unless you can explain why Jennifer Aniston and Mila Kunis aren't leading any Movies, but Denzel still is.
Click to expand...

Again, I pick one metric to show you the weird ass names that pop up.

Let's see the last Ulmer Scale.

Most recent available Ulmer Scale:

Tom Hanks
Will Ferrell
Julia Roberts
Hugh Jackman
Denzel Washington

Number five there.

Vulture has a list of the most valuable Hollywood star, with a huge list of data across eight different metrics. Here's the 2015 list:

1. Jennifer Lawrence
2. Robert Downey Jr.
3. Leonardo DiCaprio
4. Bradley Cooper
5. Dwayne Johnson
6. Tom Cruise
7. Hugh Jackman
8. Sandra Bullock
9. Channing Tatum
10. Scarlett Johansson

Denzel is #22 in the last list they did. Even his highest spot in the list over the years is #5.

Gimme a metric that somehow puts Denzel at the top. Any one. I frankly don't care what it is.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Again, I pick one metric to show you the weird ass names that pop up.

Let's see the last Ulmer Scale.

Most recent available Ulmer Scale:

Tom Hanks
Will Ferrell
Julia Roberts
Hugh Jackman
Denzel Washington

Number five there.

Vulture has a list of the most valuable Hollywood star, with a huge list of data across eight different metrics. Here's the 2015 list:

1. Jennifer Lawrence
2. Robert Downey Jr.
3. Leonardo DiCaprio
4. Bradley Cooper
5. Dwayne Johnson
6. Tom Cruise
7. Hugh Jackman
8. Sandra Bullock
9. Channing Tatum
10. Scarlett Johansson

Denzel is #22 in the last list they did. Even his highest spot in the list over the years is #5.
Click to expand...

They're poor metric that don't account for all the different variables I discussed. Robert Downey Jr's numbers are heavily inflated due to the Marvel films and Sherlock Holmes, for instance.

The article touched on that for example. Denzel IS THE BRAND.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
lightskintwin said:
They're poor metric that don't account for all the different variables I discussed. Robert Downey Jr's numbers are heavily inflated due to the Marvel films and Sherlock Holmes, for instance.

The article touched on that for example. Denzel IS THE BRAND.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Sherlock is a big deal because of Downey, as were the original Iron Man films. At this point Iron Man is the draw, but he made the character someone we cared about in the first place.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
lightskintwin said:
They're poor metric that don't account for all the different variables I discussed. Robert Downey Jr's numbers are heavily inflated due to the Marvel films and Sherlock Holmes, for instance.

The article touched on that for example. Denzel IS THE BRAND.
Click to expand...

Of course RDJs numbers are higher. He's fucking Iron Man. But then you have to ask, which came first? Iron Man was a B-lister until RDJ.

I'm not the one arguing that star power is a thing. I'm saying, any metric - PICK ONE - and Denzel ain't at the top. And most of the metrics available, I believe are based on the strength of the work or property, not the actor.

You're the one arguing that Denzel is somehow the last bastion of Star power. I'm saying it barely matters and the film itself trumps the rest.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
StoOgE said:
Yeah, but Sherlock is a big deal because of Downey, as were the original Iron Man films. At this point Iron Man is the draw, but he made the character someone we cared about in the first place.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter. Robert Downey Jr. was not a big box office draw before then. It's the white privilege afforded White male actors because they're more opportunities for them to get cast in films with 140 million dollar budgets or more in big blockbuster actions films that appeal to the widest audience possible. The same opportunities that get them cast as Lone Ranger, John Carter, Star-Lord, Valerian, Thor, etc...

MHWilliams said:
Of course RDJs numbers are higher. He's fucking Iron Man. But then you have to ask, which came first? Iron Man was a B-lister until RDJ.

I'm not the one arguing that star power is a thing. I'm saying, any metric - PICK ONE - and Denzel ain't at the top. And most of the metrics available, I believe are based on the strength of the work or property, not the actor.

You're the one arguing that Denzel is somehow the last bastion of Star power. I'm saying it barely matters and the film itself trumps the rest.
Click to expand...

My point is Denzel doesn't need Marvel because he has Star Power and can carry almost any type of film. LOL
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Nah, we're gonna start making predictions about IT and Blade Runner until both those movies actually drop.

I'm sure somewhere in there we'll have our 4000th conversation about Avatar while somehow entertaining the notion that there's more to Avatar than its box office even though it is the primary topic of discussion regarding the film.
 
C

Chamber

love on your sleeve
Bobby Roberts said:
Nah, we're gonna start making predictions about IT and Blade Runner until both those movies actually drop.

I'm sure somewhere in there we'll have our 4000th conversation about Avatar while somehow entertaining the notion that there's more to Avatar than its box office even though it is the primary topic of discussion regarding the film.
Click to expand...

Rank the Star Wars movies, now!
 
L

lupinko

Member
HeartlessNobody213 said:
Great numbers for Girl Trip. Sucks for War especially after the way Dawn did.

Homecoming doing good since it hasn't come out in China or Japan yet.

I was definitely off about Wonder Woman and it's great it's done so well. I expected $675 million overall and it managed to get close to $800 million.
Click to expand...

WW hasn't come out here in Japan yet.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
lightskintwin said:
LOL @ last and greatest in my heart of hearts. Just admit Denzel still got that thang as a movie star and we good. :p
Click to expand...

I love Denzel! I just don't believe star power is that important anymore and even if I did, I couldn't really find a metric to put him at the top. My personal metric - starring roles, by profit - definitely puts him up there, but everything else still has others ahead. Even if you go through a list like this use the average gross per movie and remove the big franchise films, there's still a number of actors who would surpass him: Smith, DiCaprio, Hanks, Ford. Limit it to the last decade and you get odd leaders like Diesel, Matt Damon, Neeson, etc.

Bobby Roberts said:
Nah, we're gonna start making predictions about IT and Blade Runner until both those movies actually drop.
Click to expand...

I have no read on Blade Runner. $300 million? IT, probably what... $150 at best?
 
B

border

Member
Bobby Roberts said:
And if the movie isn't appealing in that premise or the marketing, the star power is no longer enough to carry a film past those negatives.

I feel like Passengers might be a good example here. Pratt & Lawrence at Christmas = #3 Opening Weekend. Less than $20mil domestic.
Click to expand...

Ishtar still happened, even in an era when star power was supposedly at its height.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
border said:
Ishtar still happened, even in an era when star power was supposedly at its height.
Click to expand...

Ishtar is "Ishtar" because of how anomalous it was even then. (it's kind of an unfair rep, too)

Besides which, the stars we're referencing here are Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffman, making a Hope/Crosby road comedy in the era where Star Power had been transferred to a pretty different group of younger stars, too.

I feel your point would probably be better made with something like Hudson Hawk.
 
B

Bronx-Man

Banned
Bobby Roberts said:
Nah, we're gonna start making predictions about IT and Blade Runner until both those movies actually drop.

I'm sure somewhere in there we'll have our 4000th conversation about Avatar while somehow entertaining the notion that there's more to Avatar than its box office even though it is the primary topic of discussion regarding the film.
Click to expand...
You don't understand bro, it's a cinematic masterpiece. Not like all those other movies today that just focus on special effects while not giving a damn about story or characters or dialogue, nuh-uh dude. It was Oscar-nominated for a reason, brah.
 
S

Slayven

Member
Bobby Roberts said:
Nah, we're gonna start making predictions about IT and Blade Runner until both those movies actually drop.

I'm sure somewhere in there we'll have our 4000th conversation about Avatar while somehow entertaining the notion that there's more to Avatar than its box office even though it is the primary topic of discussion regarding the film.
Click to expand...

Why doesn't Titanic ever get the shit Avatar does?
 
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