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Women's role in islam: The story

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SmokyDave

Member
John Dunbar said:
Christians think Jesus is the son of God, so his word certainly should be the word of God. Do you think only the people who take the Bible literally (or at least the New Testament books where Jesus speaks) are true Christians?

Just an example, Jesus says only adultery is a valid reason to get divorced and divorced women can never marry again. Do you think that no one who thinks this should not be the law is a real Christian?

So why such a strict definition of Muslims? Does a Muslim have to be a fundie for you to consider him a Muslim?
This isn't about me. I didn't define the Qur'an as the perfect word of god (a title not applicable to either of the bibles, I don't see why you're so desperately trying to shoe-horn them in). If by 'fundie' you mean 'believes the Qur'an is the perfect word of god' then yes, I do. If you meant anything else then you've missed my point.

Edit: See Enosh above, I think he's provided a better explanation of why the double standard exists.
 

shuri

Banned
You know, Shao Khan turned out to be a dick when he decided to turns around the rules of the Mortal Kombat in MK3. He just said fuck it and invaded the Earthrealm anyway.
 
The OP ca do whatever he wants but quoting passages from the Quran and implying that's how most Muslim women are treated or that's why they are treated as such is misleading. There are lots of rules in the Quran that even its most fastidious adherents ignore and every religion is selective about what batshit insane recommendations they take from their Holy Book (Not all Discordians eat hot dogs on Fridays, for example). The OP is also ignoring the context in which these books were written.

Anyway, OP, do so more research and make the thread better:

http://imgur.com/chTyK.jpg[/URL]

[URL="http://www.amazon.com/dp/0816624399/?tag=neogaf0e-20"]http://imgur.com/QBugN.jpg

I didn't say anywhere that this is how most Muslim women are treated or this is the reason why all muslim women are treated the way they are.

I find it really hard to believe that any of what I have posted is used out of context, I have grown up with these arguments used around me on almost daily bases, It only makes it harder for me to believe that you have read what I have written.

If you are a true muslim, you stick to this, and that is what I believe, my mother herself believes that all of what I have written is true, she only tries to claim that there is another reason this was said and the point of it is to learn from the lessons and not really blindly practice it.
 

saelz8

Member
Enosh said:
that's beacose the new testament isn't writen by jesus but by his disciples about his life, so it leaves a lot more room for interpratation beacose with saying "yeah that isn't so" you are saying "that random dude that wrote this might have gotten it wrong"

the quran on the other hand is the direct word from god as told to muhammed, so by saying "yeah that isn't so" so you basicly saying "yeah god got that part wrong"
Full rejection of verses rarely occurs in religion, reinterpretation does though. This explains the gulfs between practice among states and sects. (Turkey vs Saudi)

"The word of god" can still be changed in function and interpretation without being rejected in the mind of believer.

You seem to be essentializing, which Is rarely correct in reality. The Muslim world isn't homogenous, nor is the religious brand itself. Its constantly changing, evolving and being reinterpreted, like most human thought, tradition and religion.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
SmokyDave said:
This isn't about me. I didn't define the Qur'an as the perfect word of god (a title not applicable to either of the bibles, I don't see why you're so desperately trying to shoe-horn them in). If by 'fundie' you mean 'believes the Qur'an is the perfect word of god' then yes, I do. If you meant anything else then you've missed my point.

Edit: See Enosh above, I think he's provided a better explanation of why the double standard exists.
This is getting silly, the old testament is the direct word of God then. And If the new testament is just Jesus's disciples why take that over the old Testament? After all Jesus said he came to fulfill the old testament not overturn it. So Christians should have the same reverence for the old testament that Muslims have for the Quran if we follow your logic to conclusion...

Fuck shao khan. I prefer the movie versions, where he is much easily defeated. H killed me too many times as a kid
 
saelz8 said:
Full rejection of verses rarely occurs in religion, reinterpretation does though. This explains the gulfs between practice among states and sects. (Turkey vs Saudi)

You seem to be essentializing, which Is rarely correct in reality. The Muslim world isn't homogenous, nor is the religious brand itself or the minds that interpret it.

I guess that's another flaw in the perfect Quran and the divine plan.
The Quran is open for interpretation, its verses can be interpreted in different ways, different interpretations contradict each other and can mislead the reader from the true meaning or intention behind the verses making the book imperfect.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
Nizar said:
I didn't say anywhere that this is how most Muslim women are treated or this is the reason why all muslim women are treated the way they are.

I find it really hard to believe that any of what I have posted is used out of context, I have grown up with these arguments used around me on almost daily bases, It only makes it harder for me to believe that you have read what I have written.

If you are a true muslim, you stick to this, and that is what I believe, my mother herself believes that all of what I have written is true, she only tries to claim that there is another reason this was said and the point of it is to learn from the lessons and not really blindly practice it.
And I say using your personal experience to generalize about what makes a "true mulism" is wrong.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Charred Greyface said:
This is getting silly, the old testament is the direct word of God then. And If the new testament is just Jesus's disciples why take that over the old Testament? After all Jesus said he came to fulfill the old testament not overturn it. So Christians should have the same reverence for the old testament that Muslims have for the Quran if we follow your logic to conclusion...

Fuck shao khan. I prefer the movie versions, where he is much easily defeated. H killed me too many times as a kid
Yes they should. They don't though. Seems illogical to me but then so does religion in general. Now, let's try and address the issue at hand without deferring to christianity as a defence. Can a muslim ignore or outright disagree with any part of the Qur'an if by their own admission, they consider it the perfect word of god?

I really hope you can concentrate on the bolded and not just come back with "Bu-bu-bu-bu Christians!"

Nizar said:
I guess that's another flaw in the perfect Quran and the divine plan.
The Quran is open for interpretation, its verses can be interpreted in different ways, different interpretations contradict each other and can mislead the reader from the true meaning or intention behind the verses making the book imperfect.
The perfect word of an omnipotent, omniscient god could not be misinterpreted. Any misinterpretations would be deliberately designed by the author for reasons perhaps only they could understand.

saelz8 said:
Yeah it's one of my biggest problems with the truth claims of religion. It's the black hole of interpretation, where everything is possible.
I actually consider it more like proof of the falsehood of religion. The perfect word of an omnipotent, omniscient god could not be misinterpreted.
 

saelz8

Member
Nizar said:
I guess that's another flaw in the perfect Quran and the divine plan.
The Quran is open for interpretation, its verses can be interpreted in different ways, different interpretations contradict each other and can mislead the reader from the true meaning or intention behind the verses making the book imperfect.
Yeah it's one of my biggest problems with the truth claims of religion. It's the black hole of interpretation, where everything is possible.

One positive thing about that though is it's a vehicle for positive change in religious brands that still have wide spread practice of more archaic traditions.
 

Enosh

Member
Charred Greyface said:
This is getting silly, the old testament is the direct word of God then. And If the new testament is just Jesus's disciples why take that over the old Testament? After all Jesus said he came to fulfill the old testament not overturn it. So Christians should have the same reverence for the old testament that Muslims have for the Quran if we follow your logic to conclusion...

Fuck shao khan. I prefer the movie versions, where he is much easily defeated. H killed me too many times as a kid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_Covenant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism
 

John Dunbar

correct about everything
SmokyDave said:
Yes they should. They don't though. Seems illogical to me but then so does religion in general. Now, let's try and address the issue at hand without deferring to christianity as a defence. Can a muslim ignore or outright disagree with any part of the Qur'an if by their own admission, they consider it the perfect word of god?

I really hope you can concentrate on the bolded and not just come back with "Bu-bu-bu-bu Christians!"

There's 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Who decided how they all must feel about the Qur'an? Now I don't know them all personally, but I imagine they don't all follow it literally (if it's even possible to follow a holy book literally, since they're crazy).

I admit that most of them would probably say it's the word of God, but how many follow everything? Such like members of some other religion I'm not allowed to mention, it's easy to say how much you believe, but actions (or refraining from action) seldom follow if it's not what the individual truly wants to do.
 
Charred Greyface said:
And I say using your personal experience to generalize about what makes a "true mulism" is wrong.

What I have written is not based on personal expreience.
I said that I have grown up hearing these arguments and quotations around me all the time was just to point out that I didn't come up with them and most of them are very well known in the muslim world.

If Islam is based on the Quran, the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the quran is to be taken literally as the word of God and Mohammad is his prophet, then a true muslim is one that believes in the mentioned literally, at least the quran.

From this logic one can judge whether a muslim is a true muslim or not, I don't see anything wrong about that.
 

SmokyDave

Member
John Dunbar said:
There's 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Who decided how they all must feel about the Qur'an? Now I don't know them all personally, but I imagine they don't all follow it literally (if it's even possible to follow a holy book literally, since they're crazy).

I admit that most of them would probably say it's the word of God, but how many follow everything? Such like members of some other religion I'm not allowed to mention, it's easy to say how much you believe, but actions (or refraining from action) seldom follow if it's not what the individual truly wants to do.
I really don't know how else to put this. How can I explain why you cannot simply dismiss qur'anic quotes? Oh hang on...
Nizar said:
If Islam is based on the Quran, the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the quran is to be taken literally as the word of God and Mohammad is his prophet, then a true muslim is one that believes in the mentioned literally, at least the quran.

From this logic one can judge whether a muslim is a true muslim or not, I don't see anything wrong about that.
...that's pretty much perfect.

What's really annoying is this isn't even the topic. It's just necessary groundwork to establish there are grounds for a topic!
 

John Dunbar

correct about everything
SmokyDave said:
The perfect word of an omnipotent, omniscient god could not be misinterpreted. Any misinterpretations would be deliberately designed by the author for reasons perhaps only they could understand.


I actually consider it more like proof of the falsehood of religion. The perfect word of an omnipotent, omniscient god could not be misinterpreted.

What kind of logic is that? The person who does the interpreting is not omnipotent nor omniscient, so he/she can still make mistakes. And who says a perfect God has to be honest, clear or even friendly?

It could be a test, people who interpret it properly win, rest go to hell.
 

saelz8

Member
SmokyDave said:
Yes they should. They don't though. Seems illogical to me but then so does religion in general. Now, let's try and address the issue at hand without deferring to christianity as a defence. Can a muslim ignore or outright disagree with any part of the Qur'an if by their own admission, they consider it the perfect word of god?

I really hope you can concentrate on the bolded and not just come back with "Bu-bu-bu-bu Christians!"


The perfect word of an omnipotent, omniscient god could not be misinterpreted. Any misinterpretations would be deliberately designed by the author for reasons perhaps only they could understand.


I actually consider it more like proof of the falsehood of religion. The perfect word of an omnipotent, omniscient god could not be misinterpreted.
I'm on my phone, so it forces me to quote your whole post. That's what I was getting at with interpretation being a black-hole. Everything being possible is an argument against, not for. So, we're on the same page. Word.
 

SmokyDave

Member
John Dunbar said:
What kind of logic is that? The person who does the interpreting is not omnipotent nor omniscient, so he/she can still make mistakes. And who says a perfect God has to be honest, clear or even friendly?

It could be a test, people who interpret it properly win, rest go to hell.
The essence of effective communication is that those you communicate with understand you. It is the basis of all communication and the emphasis is on the speaker to make themselves understood, not the listener. If the speaker is god uttering his perfect word and this god innately knows everyone that will ever hear the word then I don't see where the room for misinterpretation is unless you accept the word isn't perfect.
 
John Dunbar said:
There's 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Who decided how they all must feel about the Qur'an? Now I don't know them all personally, but I imagine they don't all follow it literally (if it's even possible to follow a holy book literally, since they're crazy).

I admit that most of them would probably say it's the word of God, but how many follow everything? Such like members of some other religion I'm not allowed to mention, it's easy to say how much you believe, but actions (or refraining from action) seldom follow if it's not what the individual truly wants to do.

There is a difference between not believing and not practicing and I really hope that you realize the difference.

You can be a Muslim if you believe in the Quran but do not practice everything it says, an example is: All the Muslims that I know have missed prayers intentionally, but god forgives them because we all sin.

The more you practice what it asks you to the better Muslim you become.

The vast majority of Muslim believe in the Quran, the whole quran, to be the truth, nothing but the truth, unedited and saved in the perfect form.
 
Nizar said:
What I have written is not based on personal expreience.
I said that I have grown up hearing these arguments and quotations around me all the time was just to point out that I didn't come up with them and most of them are very well known in the muslim world.

If Islam is based on the Quran, the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the quran is to be taken literally as the word of God and Mohammad is his prophet, then a true muslim is one that believes in the mentioned literally, at least the quran.

From this logic one can judge whether a muslim is a true muslim or not, I don't see anything wrong about that.

And this is why there's so much amnisty between shiites and sunnis and all muslims in between? I'm pretty sure catholics and protestants were this way for a while until we were content with letting the other just do their own thing...
 
SmokyDave said:
I really don't know how else to put this. How can I explain why you cannot simply dismiss qur'anic quotes? Oh hang on...

...that's pretty much perfect.

What's really annoying is this isn't even the topic. It's just necessary groundwork to establish there are grounds for a topic!

When I started writing this post, I felt that I should make an introduction about the Quran, Hadith and the prophet, their differences and roles in Islam, but I thought people in here do understand that already, I guess I was somewhat wrong.
 

Zapages

Member
Oh Nizar and his biased views of Islam... :|

Here's my answer: http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_roles_ideals.htm

hen there are the contemporary women of the Prophet's household, his wives and daughters. One of his wives, Umm Salamah, complained to him that the Qur'an was addressed only to men, and then a long passage was revealed to the Prophet* addressed clearly to men and women in every line, which states clearly the equal responsibilities and rewards for Muslim men and women.

For Muslim men and women - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise - for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.

(Qur'an 33:35)

Aishah, his youngest wife, caused a scandal when she went out into the desert to look for a necklace she had lost there and got left behind by the caravan. She was rescued by a young man and came back with him and rumours spread that she had been dallying with him. This caused great pain to her and to the Prophet and it was a long time before they were relieved by another revelation (24:4), demanding that people making such accusations against chaste women must produce four eye witnesses to the act or suffer a flogging themselves and have their evidence rejected ever after.



There are passages specifically addressed to the wives of the Prophet as a group. For example:

O Consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women. If ye do fear (Allah) be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire, but speak ye a speech (that is) just.

And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like those of the former times of ignorance, and establish regular prayer, and give zakat (welfare due) and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the family, and to make you pure and spotless.

And recite what is rehearsed to you in your houses of the Signs of Allah and His Wisdom, for Allah is All-Subtle, All-Aware.

Qur'an 33:32-34

Other passages are addressed via the Prophet to his wives, daughters and the women of the believers.



Still others were revealed in answer to questions from ordinary women, like the one concerning the practice of divorce by abstinence within the marriage (zihar). A woman complained to the Prophet about this practice, which left the woman with no sexual satisfaction, but still not free to marry another husband and a verse was revealed condemning this practice.

Allah has indeed heard (and accepted) the statement of the woman who pleads with thee concerning her husband and carries her complaint (in prayer) to Allah...

Qur'an 58:1

Another passage was revealed in answer to a woman's complaint about the way her husband wanted to have intercourse with her (2:223).

So the Qur'an is a book which has a lot to say TO women and ABOUT women. What does it say? We have already seen that it does not condemn all women in the image of Eve as Christianity has been known to do; that it is often on the side of women who complain about injustice, in marriage, divorce and in false accusation. How does it view the creation of woman? Is she just a part of Adam and an afterthought? This is what it says, in the first ayah (verse) of Surat an-Nisa - The Women:

O Mankind, be conscious of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul, and from it created its mate (of the same kind) and from them twain has spread a multitude of men and women.

Qur'an 4:1



`A single soul' is neither male nor female, although it could be understood to mean Adam it is not necessarily so. In fact `soul' is feminine and `mate' is masculine! Not that I'm suggesting that women came first, because in other parts of the Qur'an the creation of Adam is described. But the gender relationship here is ambivalent. And the mate was created from the `soul' not the humble `rib'. No Muslim scholar could ever argue, after reading this, as some Christians have done, that women do not have a soul! They are made of the same soul as men. Their capacity for good and evil is identical with that of men. In 49:13, of the Qur'an we find that it is good deeds and awareness of Allah which make the believer, male or female, noble in the sight of Allah:

Indeed the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most pious.

and in 40:40:

Whoever does right, whether male or female, (all) such will enter the garden

The works of male and female are of equal value and each will receive the due reward for what they do:

Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any one of you, male or female...

Qur'an 3:195

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him will We give a new life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to their actions.

Qur'an 16:97

The same duties are incumbent on men and women as regards their faith:

For Muslim men and women - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise - for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.

(Qur'an 33:35)



There are a few exceptions: women are given exemption from some duties,

- Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,

- Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth, and

- The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.

- They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defence of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.

But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.

- Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Id festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Id prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.

But are women's duties in social life different and complementary as most scholars assert? Is their sole function to keep house and bear and rear children while the men do everything else? Does the fact that they suffer disruption to their health when they menstruate make them unsuitable for any job outside the house, and fit only to maintain a happy and peaceful home, as Mawdudi would have us believe? This is an argument that is grossly exaggerated by male scholars everywhere to justify all kinds of discrimination against women. Mawdudi would have us believe that women scarcely enjoy a few days' sanity in their lives, so disruptive are the effects of menstruation and childbearing. No doubt there is some truth in his description of such disruption, and allowances should be made by men, and other women for this, but this does not disqualify women from any task that men can do any more than it disqualifies them from creating happy and well-run homes.

Nor is there any basis in the Qur'an or hadith for such an attitude. The Qur'an mentions menstruation in 2:222:

They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: `They are a hurt and a pollution, so keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them as ordained for you by Allah.'

According to the interpreters of Islamic law, this means only that sexual intercourse is not allowed at such times, but any other form of intimacy is still permissible. To put it briefly, menstruation may be messy and painful but it is not a major disability.



Islamic law makes no demand that women should confine themselves to household duties. In fact the early Muslim women were found in all walks of life. The first wife of the Prophet, mother of all his surviving children, was a businesswoman who hired him as an employee, and proposed marriage to him through a third party; women traded in the marketplace, and the Khalifah Umar, not normally noted for his liberal attitude to women, appointed a woman, Shaff'a Bint Abdullah, to supervise the market. Other women, like Laila al-Ghifariah, took part in battles, carrying water and nursing the wounded, some, like Suffiah bint Abdul Muttalib even fought and killed the enemies to protect themselves and the Prophet* and like Umm Dhahhak bint Masoud were rewarded with booty in the same way as the men. Ibn Jarir and al-Tabari siad that women can be appointed to a judicial position to adjudicate in all matters, although Abu Hanifah excluded them from such weighty decisions as those involving the heavy hadd and qisas punishments, and other jurists said that women could not be judges at all. The Qur'an even speaks favourably of the Queen of Sheba and the way she consulted her advisors, who deferred to her good judgement on how to deal with the threat of invasion by the armies of Solomon. (Qur'an 27:32-35):

She (the Queen of Sheba) said, `O chiefs, advise me respecting my affair; I never decide an affair until you are in my presence.' They said, `We are possessors osf strength and possessors of mighty prowess, and the command is thine, so consider what thou wilt command.' She said, `Surely the kings, when they enter a town, ruin it and make the noblest of its people to be low, and thus they do. And surely I am going to send them a present, and to see what (answer) the messengers bring back.'

Women have sometimes headed Islamic provinces, like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.

A much vaunted hadith that the Prophet said, `A people who entrust power to a woman will never prosper', has been shown to be extremely unreliable on several counts. It is an isolated and uncorroborated one, and therefore not binding in Islamic law, and in addition there is reason to believe it may have been forged in the context of the battle which Aishah the Prophet's widow led against the fourth Khalifah Ali. In view of the examples set by women rulers in history, it is also clearly untenable and false.




To sum up, the qualifications of women for work of all kinds are not in doubt, despite some spurious ahadith to the contrary. Women can do work like men, but they DO NOT HAVE to do it to earn a living. They are allowed and encouraged to take the duties of marriage and motherhood seriously and are provided with the means to stay at home and do it properly.

The Muslim woman has always had the right to own and manage her own property, a right that women in this country only attained in the last 100 years. Marriage in Islam does not mean that the man takes over the woman's property, nor does she automatically have the right to all his property if he dies intestate. Both are still regarded as individual people with responsibilities to other members of their family - parents, brothers, sisters etc. and inheritance rights illustrate this.

The husband has the duty to support and maintain the wife, as stated in the Qur'an, and this is held to be so even if she is rich in her own right. He has no right to expect her to support herself, let alone support his children or him. If she does contribute to the household income this is regarded as a charitable deed on her part.

Because of their greater financial responsibilities, some categories of male relations, according to the inheritance laws in the Qur'an, inherit twice the share of their female equivalents, but others, whose responsibilities are likely to be less, inherit the same share -mothers and fathers, for instance are each entitled to one sixth of the estate of their children, after bequests (up to one third of the estate) and payment of debts. (Qur'an 4:11):

For parents a sixth share of the inheritance to each if the deceased left children;

If no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth...

Women are thus well provided for: their husbands support them, and they inherit from all their relations. They are allowed to engage in business or work at home or outside the house, so long as the family does not suffer, and the money they make is their own, with no calls on it from other people until their death.



Nor are women expected to do the housework. If they have not been used to doing it, the husband is obliged to provide domestic help within his means, and to make sure that the food gets to his wife and children, already cooked. The Prophet* himself used to help with the domestic work, and mended his own shoes.Women are not even obliged in all cases to suckle their own children. If a divorcing couple mutually agree, they can send the baby to a wet-nurse and the husband must pay for the suckling. If the mother decides to keep the baby and suckle it herself, he must pay her for her trouble!

This is laid down in the Qur'an itself, (2:233):

The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term, but he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms...If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay what ye offered on equitable terms ...

What basis does all this leave for the male attitude that women are only fit for maternal and household duties?



Nevertheless the womanly state in marriage is given full respect in Islam, and so are the rights of children. No Muslim woman could feel ashamed to say she was only a housewife. She is the head of her household, although the husband has the final say in major decisions. According to a hadith:

The ruler is a shepherd and is responsible for his subjects, a husband is a shepherd and is responsible for his family, a wife is a shepherd and is responsible for her household, and a servant is a shepherd who is responsible for his master's property.

Hadith: Bukhari

The wife must defer to her husband in respect for the fact that he maintains and protects her out of his means (Qur'an 4:34), but not if he tries to make her break the laws of Allah. Likewise children's obedience and respect for parents goes only to the limits set by Allah. If the parents try to make them disobey Allah, then it is their duty to disobey the parents. If the husband wilfully fails to maintain his wife, she has the right to divorce him in court.

Women are also entitled to respect as mothers: Allah says in the Qur'an (31:14):

And we have enjoined on man (to be good to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him...

The Prophet* said:

Paradise lies at the feet of mothers...

and in another hadith the Prophet* told a man that his mother above all other people, even his father, was worthy of his highest respect and compassion.



In cases of divorce, the mother has first claim to custody of the young children, followed by other female members of her family, if she remarries or is unable to look after the children. The right reverts to the husband's family only after the children reach an age of greater independence, which varies according to the school of law, and then the wishes of the child must be taken into consideration, if the example of the Prophet* is to be followed. In a disputed case, he asked the child:

This is your father and this is your mother, so take whichever of them you wish by the hand.

Hadith: Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Darimi

The boy went to his mother.

In another case a woman approached the Prophet telling him that her husband had embraced Islam while she had refused to do so, adding that her daughter was being deprived of mother's milk as her father was taking her away. The Prophet made the child sit between mother and father and said both of them should call her. The child would go to whoever she chose. The child responded to the mother. The Prophet prayed to Allah to guide the child and the child then chose the father, and hence Rafi (the father) took the child (Hadith: Abu Dawud)3

Yet in this country it is still a novelty to give the child such rights.



Although the Islamic marriage contract is a civil agreement between the two parties, not a sacrament like the Christian one, it is not just a relationship of material convenience. The words used to describe marriage in the Qur'an are poetic and beautiful:

And among His signs is this: that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts, verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

Qur'an 30:21

They are your garments and ye are their garments

Qur'an 2:187

Love, mercy, intimacy and mutual protection and modesty are the qualities expected of an Islamic marriage. Even in Paradise marriage remains as one of the great joys:

Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that day have joy in all that they do; they and their spouses will be in groves of (cool) shade reclining on thrones of (dignity); fruit will be there for them, they shall have whatever they call for; `Peace', a word (of salutation) from a Lord Most Merciful.

Qur'an 36:55-57



Husbands are expected to treat their wives kindly during marriage and even during and after divorce. Allah says in the Qur'an:

... Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them, it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Qur'an 4:19

The Prophet* said:

The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.

(Hadith: Ibn Hanbal)

Married couples are urged in the Qur'an to deal with one another in a spirit of mutual consultation and agreement, even when contemplating divorce and the custody of children:

... If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them ...

Qur'an 2:233

How much more so, then, should this spirit predominate in the happy marriage!

Marriage is also intended by Allah to be fruitful. In the Qur'an He tells us:

... He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle; by this means does he multiply you...

Qur'an 42:11

Your wives are as a tilth for you ...

Qur'an 2:223



Yet contraception has never been forbidden in Islam, as the Prophet* gave permission for the withdrawal method, so long as the wife agrees. By analogy other methods of preventing conception are also allowed.

The practical aspects of marriage are covered by the marriage contract, in which the wife can specify conditions, and many Muslim women have taken advantage of this to take to themselves the right of divorce if, for example, the husband takes another wife (CARDS on Polygamy). It must include a marriage gift - sadaqah or mahr - to the wife from the husband, of an amount and nature agreed between them.

Usually, according to custom and convenience - a practice later endorsed in the Shari'ah - a young inexperienced woman would be represented in the negotiations by a `marriage guardian' or wal_ who is there to see that her interests are served. This wal_ should be her father or grandfather, but it is possible for some older or more experienced women to appoint any person of their choice to act for them. When the Prophet* married the widow, Umm Salamah, her son acted as her wal_, and the Prophet* asked his permission to marry her. (Ibn Rushd) The wishes of close relations, in particular parents, must be taken into consideration, and their permission must be asked. According to some ahadith it is better to break off a marriage which displeases one's parents, as they are the gateway to Paradise.

Parents have a responsibility to help their children find spouses,

Umar Ibn al-Khattab and Anas reported God's Messenger* as saying that it is written in the Torah, `If anyone does not give his daughter in marriage when she reaches 12 and she commits sin, the guilt of that rests on him.'

Hadith: Baihaqi

and

Abu Sa'id and Ibn Abbas reported God's Messenger* as saying: `He who has a son born to him should give him a good name and a good education and marry him when he reaches puberty. If he does not marry him when he reaches puberty and he commits sin, its guilt rests only upon his father.

Hadith: Baihaqi



But parents have no right to force young women to marry against their will after they have reached marriagable age. There is much evidence in the hadith to show that forced marriages are not legal and the wife has the right to have them annulled:

Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad* and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of Allah* gave her the choice ... (between accepting the marriage and invalidating it).

Hadith: Ibn Hanbal

In another version the girl said,

`Actually, I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them).

Hadith: Ibn Majah



The Prophet* also advised that couples should see one another before getting married, so there is no Islamic basis for the custom of marrying young couples who have never set eyes on one another. If a woman does find that she cannot bear the man she is married to, even because she finds him ugly, Islamic law makes it possible for a court to give her a divorce from him. It is only necessary to prove that she hates him irrevocably - the court does not need to probe into the reasons for the hatred. The Prophet* granted divorces to at least two women in such circumstances. One of them, Jamila, the sister of the hypocrite Abdullah Ibn Ubayy, told the Prophet* about her objection to her husband Thabit Ibn Qais:

Messenger of Allah! Nothing can keep the two of us together. As I lifted my veil, I saw him coming, accompanied by some men. I could see that he was the blackest, the shortest and the ugliest of them all. By Allah! I do not dislike him for any blemish in his faith or his morals, it is his ugliness that I dislike. Had the fear of Allah not stood in my way, I must have spat on him when he came to me. ... I am afraid my desperation might drive my Islam closer to disbelief.
 

Zapages

Member
The Prophet asked her if she would return the garden Thabit had given her, and she agreed to do this and was given a divorce.4 Thabit did not do any better with his other wife, Habibah. And there are also examples of similar cases from the times of the first three khalifahs.



Ideally speaking, women in Islam are treated like queens, indeed they are better protected than our British royal family is now! Not only are they are allowed to divorce their husbands, rather than live apart and unable to remarry, like Princess Diana, but they are also protected from scandal-mongers.

No-one is allowed, without permission, to invade their privacy in their houses (24:27-28) not even their husbands when they return from a long journey.

Men are not allowed to treat them with disrespect, to look at them more than once, or to touch them -even, some hadiths seem to show, to shake their hands - and if anyone spreads rumours about their chastity without the support of four eye witnesses to the act itself, they themselves are liable to punishment in this life and the hereafter (24:23)!

To make this demand for respect abundantly clear to the men, the wives of the Prophet are asked in the Qur'an to be modest in their appearance, and behaviour, to stay quietly in their houses and not make a great display of themselves as some well-known people were (and still are) prone to do; not to speak too pleasantly to men for fear of `those in whose hearts is a disease', and to be pious and virtuous and pure.

Ordinary Muslim women too are urged to lower their gaze and wrap themselves closely in their outer garments, letting their head-coverings fall over their neck opening, so that they may be recognised as respectable women and not molested. The Prophet's wives are also reported to have covered part of their faces with their cloaks when they were among strange men. Those who regard veiling as a form of exploitation should ask themselves which is more exploitative of women, the mini skirt or the veil?

Many Muslim women, from the Prophet's wives onwards, have aspired to the same degree of modesty and virtue as these passages enjoin and yet managed to participate actively in society by doing good deeds, working to help support their families, and/or pursuing their education. Women figured prominently among the earliest scholars of Islam. The Prophet's wife Aishah was one of the foremost transmitters of hadiths and, like other wives and Companions of the Prophet was often surrounded by students wanting to learn from her: one of her pupils, Urwah Ibn az-Zubayr said:

I did not see a greater scholar than Aishah in the learning of the Qur'an, obligatory duties, lawful and unlawful matters, poetry and literature, Arab history and genealogy.

Abu Musa al-Ash'ar_ said:

Whenever we Companions of the Prophet* encountered any difficulty in the matter of any hadith we referred it to Aishah and found that she had definite knowledge about it.

Hafiz ibn Hajar said:

... it is said that a quarter of the injunctions of the Shari'ah are narrated from her.

The Prophet* was keen to see that women were educated in Islam as well as the men and ordered the men to pass on what they had learned to their women:

Return home to your wives and children and stay with them. Teach them (what you have learned) and ask them to act upon it.

Hadith: Bukhari (CARD)

Muslim women have the right to have education from their husbands and if not, to go elsewhere to get it. An early Muslim scholar, of the Maliki school of law, named Ibn al-HÆjj, otherwise a strict critic of the over-liberal behaviour of the women in Cairo, wrote:

If a woman demands her right to religious education from her husband and brings the issue before a judge, she is justified in demanding this right because it is her right that either her husband should teach her or allow her to go elsewhere to acquire education. The judge must compel the husband to fulfil her demand in the same way that he would in the matter of her worldly rights, since her rights in matters of religion are most essential and important.

al-Mudhkal

Women can be educated by men. The Prophet sent Umar Ibn al-Khattab to teach the women of the Ansar:

It is reported by Umm `Atiyah thaat when the Messenger of Allah came to Madinah, he ordered the women of the Ansar (Muslims of Madinah) to gather in one house, and sent Umar Ibn al-Khattab to them (to convey the teachings of Islam). He asluted them while standing at athe door of the house and they returned his greeting. Then he said, `I am a messenger of the Messenger of Allah, sent especially to you.'

Hadith: Bukhari



And women taught men too, not only the wives of the Prophet but many others later were teachers of men, e.g. Aishah bt. Sa'id Ibn Abi Waqqas, who taught the first compiler of Hadith, Malik; and Sayyida Nafisa, granddaughter of al-Hasan, the Prophet's grandson, who taught Imam Shafi'i, and much later a woman taught Ibn al-Arabi, the famous Sufi thinker and greatly influenced his thought.

According to the Prophet*:

It is the duty of every Muslim (male or female) to seek knowledge.

Hadith: Bukhari?



Women's views were listened to, respected, and usually supported, by the Prophet* as we have seen. Another example is when the Prophet's pilgrimage to Makkah was stopped by the Makkans who made an agreement with him that he and the Muslims could return the following year. He told the people to shave their heads and offer their sacrifices where they were, but they did not obey, so he asked his wife Umm Salamah, and she advised him to lead them by doing so himself. He took her advice, and it worked. His successors, even the rather male chauvinist Khalifah Umar, did their best to follow his example in this. Umar, trying to regulate the exorbitant demands for mahr marriage gifts that women were making had to retreat after a woman stood up and disputed with him, quoting the Qur'an to support her case:

Umar forbade the people from paying excessive dowries and addressed them, saying: `Don't fix dowries for women over 40 ouces. If ever that is exceeded I shall deposit the escess amount in the public treasury.' As he came down from the minbar (platform), a flat-nosed lady stood up from among the women audience and said:

'It is not within your right.' Umar asked: `Why should this not be of my right?' She replied, `Because Allah has proclaimed, "Even if you had given one of them (wives) a whole treasure for dower, take not the least bit back. Would you take it by false claim and manifest sin?' (Qur'an 4:20)

When he heard this, Umar said: `The woman is right, and the man (Umar) is wrong. It seems that all people have deeper wisdom and insight than Umar.' Then he returned to the minbar and said, `O people! I had restricted the giving of more than four hundred dirhams in dower. Whosoever of you wishes to give in dower as much as he likes and finds satisfaction in so doing, may do so.'

Hadith: Ibn al-Jawzi

Umar also used to seek the counsel of Shaffa the market inspector, pay due regard to her and hold her in high esteem. (Ibn Hajar al-Isabah quoted by Hasan Turabi)



So, to conclude, these are the ideals to which Muslim women can aspire and frequently have done in the past. In a truly Islamic society, they are guaranteed

- personal respect,

- respectable married status,

- legitimacy and maintenance for their children,

- the right to negotiate marriage terms of their choice,

- to refuse any marriage that does not please them,

- the right to obtain divorce from their husbands, even on the grounds that they can't stand them (Mawdudi),

- custody of their children after divorce,

- independent property of their own,

- the right and duty to obtain education,

- the right to work if they need or want it,

- equality of reward for equal deeds,

- the right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power,
 
perfectchaos007 said:
And this is why there's so much amnisty between shiites and sunnis and all muslims in between? I'm pretty sure catholics and protestants were this way for a while until we were content with letting the other just do their own thing...

The Quran is considered perfect by the vast majority of muslims, the Hadith however, not all of it is considered to be true, but there are books that saved the ones that are believed to be true such as Sahih Al-Bukhari.

The difference between Sunnis and Shias is mainly outside the Quran, its about who was supposed to take over the Islamic state after the prophet died.

There are also differences in practices, which are due to different methods of interpreting the Quran and as a result different fatwas.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
saelz8 said:
Full rejection of verses rarely occurs in religion, reinterpretation does though. This explains the gulfs between practice among states and sects. (Turkey vs Saudi)

I don't want to get too deep into this argument, but Turkey is not an Islamic state. In fact it's a militaristic secular state (speaking poorly of Ataturk is punishable in Turkey, IIRC).
 

Prine

Banned
SmokyDave said:
Aah, the spirit of discussion. Always nice to see.

I know a friend who will be killed if she leaves her muslim husband, hence all muslims treat they're women like this!
 

Veidt

Blasphemer who refuses to accept bagged milk as his personal savior
Prine said:
I know a friend who will be killed if she leaves her muslim husband, hence all muslims treat they're women like this!
:lol
 
Zapages said:
I got it man. :) I am fluent in Urdu. :)

Kehali teka?
I also know some swear words such as paghel and bandar, my classmates in the 5th and sixth grade taught me some but I forgot most of it.

Anyway, back to topic, I have read half of what you posted and I will comment on it when I am done.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
Prine said:
I know a friend who will be killed if she leaves her muslim husband, hence all muslims treat they're women like this!

This isn't a thread about anecdotal observations, this is a thread where the OP posted literal quotes from the holy book of Islam that he perceives to be strongly sexist, looking for responses from people and wanting to start a discussion.

I'm frankly amazed no one has addressed the fact that Mohammed married a 6-year-old girl and consummated the marriage when she was 9 or 10. Interpreting that literally would mean Mohammed would be a pedophile in modern society. That's pretty messed up.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Prine said:
I know a friend who will be killed if she leaves her muslim husband, hence all muslims treat they're women like this!
You're really good at this aren't you. You can't actually tackle the issues at hand so you dodge around them and make off-base attacks at the poster behind them instead. You're way off base too. She re-enforced some of my beliefs about Islam, she didn't create them. You can lay the blame for that at the feet of the south asian muslims I grew up with.
 

itxaka

Defeatist
Nerevar said:
This isn't a thread about anecdotal observations, this is a thread where the OP posted literal quotes from the holy book of Islam that he perceives to be strongly sexist, looking for responses from people and wanting to start a discussion.

I'm frankly amazed no one has addressed the fact that Mohammed married a 6-year-old girl and consummated the marriage when she was 9 or 10. Interpreting that literally would mean Mohammed would be a pedophile in modern society. That's pretty messed up.
I dont think its the same thing now and then. Society evolves, a part of them quickly and pther parts slower
 

Zapages

Member
Nizar said:
Kehali teka?
I also know some swear words such as paghel and bandar, my classmates in the 5th and sixth grade taught me some but I forgot most of it.

Anyway, back to topic, I have read half of what you posted and I will comment on it when I am done.

Kehali teka - you mean how are you, ok? Ka Hal hai, teek ha or Empty ok,

Paghel = crazy = not a swear word
bandar = monkey = not a swear word as well. Just letting you know man. :)

Anyway back on coast mode.
 

Ermc_G6

Member
Does anyone in this thread actually have any formal religious instruction?

Lets see some credentials people.
 
Zapages:

I have read what you posted and I have to say, I really wish that you would have written the relevant parts yourself or at least past only what is relevant to what I am claiming here.

What you posted here is just walking around the bush over and over without hitting it, or in other words, just showing us the other side of the coin, the less negative or slightly more positive parts that speak of women in Islam.

This whole situation reminded me of a quote by George Carlin:
Religion has actually convinced people that there's an INVISIBLE MAN...LIVING IN THE SKY...who watches every thing you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten special things that he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever 'til the end of time...but he loves you


The only thing that I found relative from what you posted is this:

But parents have no right to force young women to marry against their will after they have reached marriagable age.

Wait does this mean that they can do that before she reaches a marriageable age?

There is much evidence in the hadith to show that forced marriages are not legal and the wife has the right to have them annulled:

Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad* and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of Allah* gave her the choice ... (between accepting the marriage and invalidating it).

Hadith: Ibn Hanbal

This is the only problem that I have with what you posted, can you give me the Hadiths number?
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
6a00d83451c45669e20120a50b45f7970b-800wi.jpg

I have never ever EVER met a Haitian Woman that thought its ok to get beaten on...
 

SmokyDave

Member
~Devil Trigger~ said:
I have never ever EVER met a Haitian Woman that thought its ok to get beaten on...
You probably spent time with the 71% whose husbands allow them to leave the house and mix with other men.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
BattleMonkey said:
Spend lot of time in haiti?
raised

edit: im not saying Domestic violence dont exist, and women(of ALL walks of life) are sometimes blinded by love/insecurities ect.. that they stay with an abusive husband, but i dont think any of them think its "ok" in the sense of This thread.
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
OP included the following:


And after she becomes an adult, she is equal to a dog or a donkey when it comes to cutting the prayer of a Muslim if she passed in front of him:

Quote:
The prophet Mohammad said:
« يَقْطَعُ الصَّلاَةَ الْمَرْأَة وَالْحِمَار وَالْكَلْب».
A woman, a donkey and a dog cut off your prayer.
Source: صحيح مسلم ج2 ص60


Look at the very same chapter of the same book you quoted from. A'isha is asked about the hadith and she denies it. She mentions that those that say this equate women to dogs and donkeys, and that she was personally in front of the Prophet when he prayed, and that it didn't cut off his prayer.

http://al-eman.com/hadeeth/viewchp....-%E6%C7%E1%CD%E3%C7%D1-%E6%C7%E1%DF%E1%C8#SR1

-----------


@ Zapages:

The Prophet* said:

Paradise lies at the feet of mothers...

This is a false hadith according to Al-Aqeeli, Ibn Adi, Al-Thahabi, and Al-Albani.

There are a few exceptions: women are given exemption from some duties,

- Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,

- Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth, and

- The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.

- They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defence of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.

Or even regular congretional prayers for that matter.

The Prophet* said:

The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.

(Hadith: Ibn Hanbal)

Yup. This is also narrated by Ibn Hibban in his Saheeh and Al-Tirmithi and Al-Hakim. It is an authentic hadith.

Nizar said:
What you posted here is just walking around the bush over and over without hitting it, or in other words, just showing us the other side of the coin, the less negative or slightly more positive parts that speak of women in Islam.

I don't see anything wrong with that. The topic revolves around women in Islam in general. For him to bring up issues that don't necessarily refute what you brought up but shed another light on the issue shouldn't be condemned, for it would be unfair to just focus on the "questionable" issues that you brought up.

Nizar said:
This is the only problem that I have with what you posted, can you give me the Hadiths number?

It is hadith 2469, authenticated by Ahmed Shakir the muhaqiq of the Musnad, as well as Ibnul Qayim.
 
Nizar you try so hard. :lol

try again when you have more time. whom did you change? who ever accepts your view is the only correct view on Islam is moran.

Everything you said can be found in millions of websites on internet. which one did you use? answers to every single question of yours can be found and of course you will never list ayah or hadit about positive thing. you are very afraid of doing so i guess.

keep your cred up at neogaf people here worship you , start the topic for economic problems and terrorism and suicide bombing too. :lol

edit: Darackutny he will not read or speak anything that is other than what he wants to read or speak.
 
I guess I was wrong about the forced marriage, the Quran says: "Do not inherit women against their will" (4:19), and since the Quran is more trusted as a source than Hadith I will have to stick to it and will thus edit out the part that speaks of forced marriage.
 
crazy monkey said:
Nizar you try so hard. :lol

try again when you have more time. whom did you change? who ever accepts your view is the only correct view on Islam is moran.

Everything you said can be found in millions of websites on internet. which one did you use? answers to every single question of yours can be found and of course you will never list ayah or hadit about positive thing. you are very afraid of doing so i guess.

keep your cred up at neogaf people here worship you , start the topic for economic problems and terrorism and suicide bombing too. :lol

edit: Darackutny he will not read or speak anything that is other than what he wants to read or speak.

As if you have done any better.
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
Nizar said:
I guess I was wrong about the forced marriage, the Quran says: "Do not inherit women against their will" (4:19), and since the Quran is more trusted as a source than Hadith I will have to stick to it and will thus edit out the part that speaks of forced marriage.

Actually, you didn't quote a hadith regarding forced marriages. You just quoted Ibn Abdul Bar and Ibn Qudama. Other scholars have disagreed with this view. Ibn Hazm currently comes to mind.

edit: Darackutny he will not read or speak anything that is other than what he wants to read or speak.

{ إنك لا تهدي من أحببت ولكن الله يهدي من يشاء وهو أعلم بالمهتدين }
 

SmokyDave

Member
Darackutny said:
{ إنك لا تهدي من أحببت ولكن الله يهدي من يشاء وهو أعلم بالمهتدين }
Just in case anybody else finds it extremely irritating that two people obviously capable of speaking english are choosing urdu / arabic in this topic, I will provide a translation...

"You can not guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He will and He knows the right way."

I'm sorry but that is extremely rude. It implies that you are having a discussion that you wish to exclude others from, that's what PM's are for. There's a good reason Nizar provided translations in the OP.
 

RiZ III

Member
Interesting post OP. I don't have much time right now to write too much right now, but I will say that the whole Aisha being married to Muhammad at age 6 is not cannon and is debated. The sources themselves are not consistent. Truth is that the hadith and even Muhammad's biography aren't very reliable sources of information on what really happened since they were written one to two centuries after Muhammad.

Al-Tabari, one of the earliest and most famous Muslim historian, states that Aisha was seven when she married the Prophet. The first revelation of Islam was in 610 CE. Al-Tabari says all of Abu Bakr’s children (including Aisha) were born before the message of Islam. Al-Tabari also said Aisha began living with the Prophet as his wife in 624 CE, meaning she would have been at least 14, rendering Al-Tabari an unreliable source on Aisha’s marriage age.

Also, according to a number of sources, Aisha’s older sister Asma died at the age of 100 in 73 or 74 AH (695 or 696 CE), making her 27 or 28 at the time of hijra (migration from Mecca to Medina in 622 CE). Sources indicate that Aisha was 10 years younger than Asma, putting Aisha’s age at 17 or 18 at the time of her legal marriage to the Prophet, and consummation at 19 or 20. Though some clerics would adamantly reject this view, several historical accounts from Prophet Muhammad’s life imply that that the view that Aisha was seven when she was married is an indication that historical facts were manipulated to support dismal and oppressive cultural norms.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
SmokyDave said:
Just in case anybody else finds it extremely irritating that two people obviously capable of speaking english are choosing urdu / arabic in this topic, I will provide a translation...

"You can not guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He will and He knows the right way."

I'm sorry but that is extremely rude.
It implies that you are having a discussion that you wish to exclude others from, that's what PM's are for. There's a good reason Nizar provided translations in the OP.
Plenty of other threads have people speaking in different languages all the time and noone complains there. Hell, several people have tags in different languages. A bit overreactive?
 

SmokyDave

Member
XiaNaphryz said:
Plenty of other threads have people speaking in different languages all the time and noone complains there. Hell, several people have tags in different languages. A bit overreactive?
I don't know, is it? I haven't really noticed that to be honest. Tags are a different kettle of fish. It just strikes me as a very odd thing to do. If you were in a group of 10 people and they all understood English and 5 understood Arabic, which language would you speak? If you chose Arabic part way through the discussion, how would you expect the 5 people you just excluded to feel? How are they to know if your comments are pertinent to the discussion, irrelevant, complimentary or derogatory?

If I'm making a faux-pas I apologise but I haven't seen it in other topics and it struck me as rude.
 
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