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[FuturusX]

They aren't pre calculating

The game connects to a cluster of servers and they do heavy operations there and send info back and forth in between the X1.

It's like having a massive CPU with a small high latency link in between it

You really are banging hard on this drum. No game has ever done this. I welcome it. But until we have a working model you really have to give it a rest.

I believe that you have full confidence in Microsoft. That much is true. But with no working model it might as well be talk. Unless they have a working model at E3 - what's the point?

When can we see the first games using this. How many devs are working on games using this. Zero? So we might see a game with this in 3 years? All to help with some grass animations - cool.

 

[ypo]

Awesome. You shoot at something the physics react 2 seconds later. What a beautiful cloud.

 

[weekend_warrior]

That's a cute idea and all to "offload" non-latency important tasks into "the cloud". The problem is when you design an entire platform around that idea, especially when we've seen how well it works with things like Onlive. Your basically making it so games only work as well as your internet connection. Trying to play single player Dark Souls 3 during high internet traffic periods? 20 FPS. If you can play at all. And God help you if you have low Internet caps...

 

[Riggs]

Anyone that has even a small understanding of cloud architecture would know these things are possible, but on GAF it gets lost in all of the fanboy drivel.

Being possible and being functional in a real time work environment are two entirely different things. And you know this with your IT background.

 

[Brad Grenz]

How can lighting be pre-calculated? That makes no sense to me? How does it know which direction I'll be facing by the time the response is sent back from the "cloud"?

Sending light maps for textures

Won't be handling reflected or refracted light.

Depends on the intended use

Right, but now you lighting is no longer fully dynamic, oh, and your player can't see anything for 6 minutes because his 5Mbps DSL is taking forever to pull down 100s of MBs of new light maps. Weird, since you've got all that Blu-ray space and you probably could have prebaked them and put them on the disc, even if that meant doing 6 versions for each area instead of going through the charade of calculating them in the cloud, and let's be honest, it will be faster and cheaper just to pull down one of those six precalculated lightmap sets from cloud storage, in which case you didn't cloud compute anything, you just delivered on demand lighting DLC.

 

[Klocker]

I have searched google scholar for anything related on partial cloud rendering but I couldn't find any papers on it. If someone could point me to some peer reviewed research done on this mater I would appreciate it.

I'm not sure if it is part of the Xbox One architecture Move engines purpose maybe?) or if the decision is server side (imagine local though)
but apparently there is an algorithm for it and I have heard a dev say there would be APIs for that when coding

The decision-making process of when to do that—it only fires on "latency insensitive" loads, not "latency sensitive" ones—still dictates that the majority of workload will still be done locally, client side (i.e. on your Xbox). But that's not always going to be the case.

 

[DopeyFish]

3-4 TeraFlops? Holy mother of ..

again, it's a little exaggerated because it's not being directed at much GPU related except a few instances

so it's a lot of power being dedicated to things that usually don't get that much love (which should make games feel quite a bit different in some cases)

 

[charsace]

Anyone that has even a small understanding of cloud architecture would know these things are possible, but on GAF it gets lost in all of the fanboy drivel.

Companies have been doing these things for a long time. Oracle even wanted to release a PC in the 90's that utilized servers for storage and shared processing power. If you have played a shooter online in the last 20+ years then you have experienced what they are talking about.

 

[HaRyu]

So, lets say cloud computing in this case is suppose to do things like help with graphics? What happens if one loses internet access while playing a game? And I'm not suggesting "OMG, MORE THAN 24 HOURS NO INTERNET". I'm thinking the more likely scenario of "5 to 10 minutes of no internet because my ISP is stupid".

Assuming that they put in some sort of system to NOT kill your game when you lose internet access to "the cloud". What theoretically is suppose to happen?

Would there suddenly be a noticeable drop in graphical quality? I would assume it would be notable? Otherwise... why even bother sending calculations to the cloud?

Or maybe, a noticeable drop in speed?

 

[Klocker]

first games using this. How many devs are working on games using this. Zero? So we might see a game with this in 3 years? All to help with some grass animations - cool.

Greenwalt alluded to it being used in Forza 5 so maybe we will see sooner than later

 

[nib95]

3-4 TeraFlops? Holy mother of ..

Yes lol, 3-4Tflops is an absurd claim really. Essentially an extra GeForce Titan. Obviously that is not viable, not even financially. I mean hell, just look at the damn machine. It's underpowered. They can't afford to subsidise the cost of the console for better hardware, but they can for some random cloud server array? Just don't buy it.

 

[oVerde]

Does that means that Microsoft can offer huge ass open worlds but keep the graphics at a very high level?

Huge living worlds at a very high level o IQ.

Yes lol, 3-4Tflops is an absurd claim really. Essentially an extra GeForce Titan. Obviously that is not viable, not even financially. I mean hell, just look at the damn machine. It's underpowered. They can't afford to subsidise the cost of the console for better hardware, but they can for some random cloud server array? Just don't buy it.

It's hellacheap server hardware than micronized TFlops, and cloud computing runs over VMs so the hardware can be a mix of physical pieces from a long range of hardware.

 

[Riggs]

So, lets say cloud computing in this case is suppose to do things like help with graphics? What happens if one loses internet access while playing a game? And I'm not suggesting "OMG, MORE THAN 24 HOURS NO INTERNET". I'm thinking the more likely scenario of "5 to 10 minutes of no internet because my ISP is stupid".

Assuming that they put in some sort of system to NOT kill your game when you lose internet access to "the cloud". What theoretically is suppose to happen?

Would there suddenly be a noticeable drop in graphical quality? I would assume it would be notable?

Or maybe, a noticeable drop in speed?

If nothing... why even bother sending calculations to the cloud?

This is asked in the article, MS guy had no answer.

Because this isn't even happening yet ...

 

[bbjvc]

I really think if MS really going to check on if xbox is connected every 24 hours it would be a stupid move, but I still believe it's just Harrison running with his mouth without knowing the detail.

My interpretation so far is XBOX1 will require internet to active any content to tie in with user account, how often does this content need to access internet is purely based on the content itself, a single player game will still work off-line.

I will give MS the benefit of doubt simply because this is fresh territory, no game console have fully digitalised.

of cause, I may be wrong and the reality is far worse, if that's the case, i simply won't buy it, MS have enough time to explain themselves, and we as customer, still have enough time to understand how it will be before the launch.

 

[shandy706]

That's a cute idea and all to "offload" non-latency important tasks into "the cloud". The problem is when you design an entire platform around that idea, especially when we've seen how well it works with things like Onlive. Your basically making it so games only work as well as your internet connection. Trying to play single player Dark Souls 3 during high internet traffic periods? 20 FPS. If you can play at all. And God help you if you have low Internet caps...

Uh...I don't think you understand what they're talking about. Onlive and cloud assisted games are nothing alike.

 

[BruiserBear]

Is a single launch game using the cloud for computing? I'm willing to bet they're not.

Therefore all of this should be taken as pie in the sky nonsense. When a single game uses such features, then we can start taking it seriously.

 

[longdi]

Just like their new DRM/always connected policies, this is needless fluff where it would have been easier(and better for us,gamers) to build a better specs console than one which is 33% weaker than PS4 on the same silicon budget. lol.

Cloud computing have been hyped for many years but it still haven took over the world.

 

[PsySal]

[deleted]

 

[FuturusX]

Companies have been doing these things for a long time. Oracle even wanted to release a PC in the 90's that utilized servers for storage and shared processing power. If you have played a shooter online in the last 20+ years then you have experienced what they are talking about.

Computational tasks that are highly latency sensitive will not fair well. That's just the reality. Dreams are dreams though.

 

[DopeyFish]

Right, but now you lighting is no longer fully dynamic, oh, and your player can't see anything for 6 minutes because his 5Mbps DSL is taking forever to pull down 100s of MBs of new light maps. Weird, since you've got all that Blu-ray space and you probably could have prebaked them and put them on the disc, even if that meant doing 6 versions for each area instead of going through the charade of calculating them in the cloud, and let's be honest, it will be faster and cheaper just to pull down one of those six precalculated lightmap sets from cloud storage, in which case you didn't cloud compute anything, you just delivered on demand lighting DLC.

it's not going to be hundreds of MBs...

you'd be able to get lightmaps for an entire scene in a few seconds. not minutes.

 

[Kyon]

I really think if MS really going to check on if xbox is connected every 24 hours it would be a stupid move, but I still believe it's just Harrison running with his mouth without knowing the detail.

My interpretation so far is XBOX1 will require internet to active any content to tie in with user account, how often does this content need to access internet is purely based on the content itself, a single player game will still work off-line.

I will give MS the benefit of doubt simply because this is fresh territory, no game console have fully digitalised.

of cause, I may be wrong and the reality is far worse, if that's the case, i simply won't buy it, MS have enough time to explain themselves, and we as customer, still have enough time to understand how it will be before the launch.

um Phil is a Corporate VICE PRESIDENT I believe he knows whats going on more than most. Are you kidding me lol

 

[Winterfang]

People are actually starting to believe this BS?

seriously?





seriously?!

 

[famousmortimer]

I'm starting to learn more about the tech side of things but I'm still basically an idiot. I assume most of us are, on either side of this debate.

The person I trust the most on this forum is Durante. The man, on his own, did what the entire team working on Dark Souls for the PC could not. He knows his shit.

I can't link to his post because I'm on a phone but earlier today he dropped his knowledge on cloud computing which is something he's been working with for years. He says it's mostly bullshit for games.

I trust him more than PR folks. It's not impossible that ms is cooking something but without a single shred of evidence that this works we have no reason to believe it will.

 

[bbjvc]

No, just the opposite. They claimed SimCity wouldn't work offline because "the cloud" was doing an ton of computations.

That's what i'm suggesting, What MS's example here is game will work fine offline, and will look better with cloud, if that's the case, no matter how minor the enhancement is, it can't be DRM.

Of course if they lying and make the game online only that's another story.

 

[Riggs]

um Phil is a Corporate VICE PRESIDENT I believe he knows whats going on more than most. Are you kidding me lol

Please tell me you are joking dude. People on that level are usually the most uninformed people as far as technical prowess goes. Have you ever worked for a major company that deals with any kind of tech?

Our local regional VP was so fucking stupid it made quarterly meetings worth attending, this was Comcast btw.

 

[nib95]

Right, but now you lighting is no longer fully dynamic, oh, and your player can't see anything for 6 minutes because his 5Mbps DSL is taking forever to pull down 100s of MBs of new light maps. Weird, since you've got all that Blu-ray space and you probably could have prebaked them and put them on the disc, even if that meant doing 6 versions for each area instead of going through the charade of calculating them in the cloud, and let's be honest, it will be faster and cheaper just to pull down one of those six precalculated lightmap sets from cloud storage, in which case you didn't cloud compute anything, you just delivered on demand lighting DLC.

I mentioned earlier that this idea actually seems like it would complicate the development process, and put more potential obstacles and issues in the way, instead of simplifying them. As you rightly mentioned, it would appear easier and simpler to just use the local tools at hand, especially at the behest of added reliability.

 

[shinnn]

Could be possible that Sony bought Gaikai because of they heard rumors about the MS intention? So they thinked this was just streaming games?

Spoiler

let's play the game

 

[Proelite]

Just like their new DRM/always connected policies, this is needless fluff where it would have been easier(and better for us,gamers) to build a better specs console than one which is 33% weaker than PS4 on the same silicon budget. lol.

Cloud computing have been hyped for many years but it still haven took over the world.

idk, Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud is pretty big man.

 

[USC-fan]

it's not going to be hundreds of MBs...

you'd be able to get lightmaps for an entire scene in a few seconds. not minutes.

lol what he size of these lightmaps you are getting in seconds?

Are you on google fiber? Or they just shitty?

 

[kadotsu]

I'm getting kind of annoyed. I haven't found a mention of this on the MSDN sites and this also didn't seem to be on the agenda of the "Windows Azure Technical Briefing for the Games Industry" in Hamburg on 29. April. I would love to see actual documentation for this but my google-fu is failing me.

 

[HaRyu]

This is asked in the article, MS guy had no answer.

Because this isn't even happening yet ...

Oh doh, glazed over that part.

I wouldn't be particularly thrilled if my gameplay experience was tied directly to how reliable my damn internet connection is. Having performance or graphical quality drop because the internet took a shit is almost akin to the old days of tvs having bunny ear antennas, and hoping to god the signal is enough to get a decent picture.

 

[bbjvc]

um Phil is a Corporate VICE PRESIDENT I believe he knows whats going on more than most. Are you kidding me lol

I would say the higher the position he is, the less detail he likely knowing.

 

[charsace]

Right, but now you lighting is no longer fully dynamic, oh, and your player can't see anything for 6 minutes because his 5Mbps DSL is taking forever to pull down 100s of MBs of new light maps. Weird, since you've got all that Blu-ray space and you probably could have prebaked them and put them on the disc, even if that meant doing 6 versions for each area instead of going through the charade of calculating them in the cloud, and let's be honest, it will be faster and cheaper just to pull down one of those six precalculated lightmap sets from cloud storage, in which case you didn't cloud compute anything, you just delivered on demand lighting DLC.

Why would the game be sending the art assets back and forth and not just the numbers to be calculated? Why wouldn't the client just use the numbers it already has to display something instead of stalling and displaying nothing? What you're describing defeats the purpose of parallel design in regards to game systems.

 

[bobbytkc]

it's not going to be hundreds of MBs...

you'd be able to get lightmaps for an entire scene in a few seconds. not minutes.

Not the entire scene. The entire background. The lighting on every character and object in the scene cannot be offloaded to the cloud since these has to be updated every frame. This means there will be some lag time between the change in environmental lighting and the objects in the scene. This can potentially cause headaches in many games.

 

[famousmortimer]

it's not going to be hundreds of MBs...

you'd be able to get lightmaps for an entire scene in a few seconds. not minutes.

Lighting that updated every few seconds would be awful. Completely awful.

 

[stktt]

Hm. I'll believe it when I see it.

The best stance to take.

 

[perineumlick]

Yes lol, 3-4Tflops is an absurd claim really. Essentially an extra GeForce Titan. Obviously that is not viable, not even financially. I mean hell, just look at the damn machine. It's underpowered. They can't afford to subsidise the cost of the console for better hardware, but they can for some random cloud server array? Just don't buy it.

I'm telling you, this is MS trying to blunt the blow of the PS4's technical advantage. If they really plan to take advantage of this stuff in the near future, fine, I'm all for it, but I can't help but feel that it's an elaborate ruse to offset the perception of the One being underpowered.

 

[DopeyFish]

Lighting that updated every few seconds would be awful. Completely awful.

GLOBAL ILLUMINATION

 

[darkistheway]

Isn't dynamic lighting (that is what SVOGI is?) being yanked from UE4 because no system could really handle it?

And now MS is saying they'll do it over the internet 'latency-insensitive?"

 

[Riggs]

Oh doh, glazed over that part.

I wouldn't be particularly thrilled if my gameplay experience was tied directly to how reliable my damn internet connection is. Having performance or graphical quality drop because the internet took a shit is almost akin to the old days of tvs having bunny ear antennas, and hoping to god the signal is enough to get a decent picture.

All good bro its kind of a long read anyways.

 

[oVerde]

Could be possible that Sony bought Gaikai because of they heard rumors about the MS intention? So they thinked this was just streaming games?

Spoiler

let's play the game

I like conspiracies, I bet with you!

 

[Klocker]

I'm getting kind of annoyed. I haven't found a mention of this on the MSDN sites and this also didn't seem to be on the agenda of the "Windows Azure Technical Briefing for the Games Industry" in Hamburg on 29. April. I would love to see actual documentation for this but my google-fu is failing me.

I think one reason is that the advancements they have been making and research has been pretty secret. I don't think they are quite ready to explain it until they can show it, they were just saying it's there we have it working we are building the tools and infrastructure.... 6 mos form now we may know everything

 

[charsace]

Computational tasks that are highly latency sensitive will not fair well. That's just the reality. Dreams are dreams though.

If something does need to updated every frame are faster than 60fps you could probably do it on the cloud. Online games have been doing it for decades.

No way will they do dynamic lighting through the cloud though.

 

[ShowDog]

Unless they come out with something fairly revolutionary this feature doesn't make any sense. The skeptical people are rightly waiting to see something before getting excited and spreading PR fud. All this talk is straight out of the old Sony playbook when there are no real examples to go along with.

If the Xbox One is supposedly 1.2 teraflops and the average connection is 8 megabits, that makes the Xbox One now... 1.20000008 teraflops? Wheeee

 

[nib95]

it's not going to be hundreds of MBs...

you'd be able to get lightmaps for an entire scene in a few seconds. not minutes.

Lightmaps from my understanding are quite large file sizes, especially those at higher resolutions. You'd have to have some very fast internet to do the kind of file sizes you're talking in a matter of seconds. Not viable except for a tiny minority of people with uber connections really.

 

[Lambda Pie]

cloud computing won't do a thing, people buying this are getting duped.

 

[Deleted member 8095]

cloud computing won't do a thing, people buying this are getting duped.

Source?

 

[i-Lo]

Who needs PC when you've got Xbone as long as it's connected with optimum online condition.

I bet Epic are kicking themselves for dropping Voxel Cone Tracing instead of developing it further. Dat GI.

 

[Riggs]

Unless they come out with something fairly revolutionary this feature doesn't make any sense. The skeptical people are rightly waiting to see something before getting excited and spreading PR fud. All this talk is straight out of the old Sony playbook when there are no real examples to go along with.

If the Xbox One is supposedly 1.2 teraflops and the average connection is 8 megabits, that makes the Xbox One now... 1.20000008 teraflops? Wheeee

This is almost akin to blast core processing, cloud computing is very real so I won't go that far. But if you read the article, he can't even answer basic fundamental questions. They shouldn't be using this as hype unless its viable and effective, and I highly doubt it is as far as real time graphics are concerned. Dedicated servers etc is what this kind of power should be utilized for imo.

 

[InsaneZero]

There is no network-independent universal element in games that could be effectively improved by cloud computing. Stuff like graphics and AI require latency that would be impossible to handle using network infrastructure available today. The only thing that cloud computing would improve are online-based game features, such as the World Tendency in DS.

Now, the real question is why Microsoft is pushing extremely hard on the notion that cloud computing is the future when faced with this information. Well, that's a rhetorical question though.

I hope everybody loved Sim City, because we'll be getting a lot more games like it in the next generation.