Yeah, what is the resolution on this? 720p, 900p, or 1080p like the patched PS4 version? Ubisoft seemed kinda unclear about what the actual resolution was.
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Xbox One's Scaler May Be Applying a Sharpening Filter to All Sub-1080p Games
- Thread starter madmackem
- Start date
Yeah, what is the resolution on this? 720p, 900p, or 1080p like the patched PS4 version? Ubisoft seemed kinda unclear about what the actual resolution was.
ionicbluebird
Member
So how is the upscaling on PS4? Both consoles could use this Lanczos scaling algorithm. PS4 could probably do it in software as it has the GPU power to spare.
Anyone have a clue as to how much of a CU it would take to upscale Lanczos style?
Anyone have a clue as to how much of a CU it would take to upscale Lanczos style?
Depends.
For Microsoft I believe they use a specific ASIC (If we're lucky it's a FPGA) for the scaling - so it's essentially impossible for them to implement.
For Sony I think it's all done in software - so they could simply implement the Lanczos scaling feature and be done with it.
Durante and madshi would be the key consultants for the upscaling chip - madshi is the guy behind madVR; currently the best video software renderer available for quality.
It's 900p.
Chobel
Member
Is sharpening filter applied?
ionicbluebird
Member
That's interesting... though I think the PS4 does have hardware scaling, as it has similar display plane hardware as the One; plus Yoshida claimed as much (someone asked if PS4 had a scaler)... it's probably not as good as Lanczoz though...
Well, this video should make you the judge of that.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Why would Sony opt for software when GCN comes with a scaler by default exactly? Not only that but it's been known that PS4 uses hardware for scaling. http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-displayscanout-engine-dce/
Killing_Joke
Member
That is ugly. Crushed blacks is the worst. All games are suffering from this?
Ok... So now in this case both are boned.
It'll all depend on AMD then and their implementation of scaling. I'm assuming they can edit the scaling algorithm via updates so ps4 should still be fine.
They do have the spare GPU processing power available to implement Lanczos so that isn't a problem for them (Sony).
Problem is that it would affect the tflops available to devs. I haven't heard anything much about the ps4 scaling so can't really say if Sony needs to change theirs as much as Microsoft clearly has to.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Compare.
yep. Anyone that says there are negligible differences needs to get their eyes fixed. When I PC game, resolution is the absolute last thing that I compromise. Luckily I have a 7970 now, but when I was running with a 5850 I would drop any effects I could while still maintaining native res
Chobel
Member
After seeing this video and all the other games, I don't think the sharpening and crushed black are optional when upscaling, all Xbox One games are stuck with these filters.
BishopLamont
Banned
PS4 looks more like the HD console of choice each and everyday, seriously MS, get your shit together.
ionicbluebird
Member
Honestly, due to the sharpening I can't see much of a difference between versions. I would have liked a comparison of X1 AC4 to PS4 900p AC4 though.
Do we know if the scaler is programmable or not? I can't imagine it's locked down to the point that it has no changeable parameters, and AMD can't possibly be dumb enough to put in a hardware-locked scaler that reliably damages image quality.
Chobel
Member
You don't see a difference because of that stupid IGN video player, as both version are downscaled to 720p. Wait for DF article to judge the difference.
Nervous Sausage
Member
That CoD screenshot comparison is very telling and so many games I've played and seen on Xbox One looks like that. On a side note, i remember in 2005 reading an interview where somebody from Microsoft said that with the Xbox 360, the age of jaggies is going to be a thing of the past, yet here we are. Looks like Playstation will be my console of choice this generation for the first time since the PS1. Just the thought of putting up with this horrible image quality on nearly every game for the next 5+ years makes me cringe. All Microsoft had to do was keep Kinect optional and beef up the GPU and everything would've been fine.
They looked pretty close to me. Noticed more shading on the PS4, like self-shading from his buttons and stuff. Why was the one enemy wearing completely different clothes?
haZethew0rld
Member
DR3 looks really dirty.
Im glad im not the only one spotting this, anyone who has cod the best way to see it is in the lobby. Im really pissed at this its spoiling my enjoyment of some of the games effected by this magic scaler. I wonder if any sites will pick this up and contact ms for a statement, its spoiling the xboxone for people although most sites dont seem to give a fuck about tech side of things now.
polyh3dron
Banned
I just played a bit of Killer Instinct and it reminded me of the jaggies I saw on the early PS2 games like Tekken Tag Tournament and Ridge Racer 5. Glad I have a PS4 for multiplats.
brain_stew
Member
None of that is correct. Both systems have dedicated scaling hardware in their GPU, just like the 360 and WII as well as any GPU released in the last 5 years.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Where was this confirmed?
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
That comment section made my head hurt. MS definitely made a good business move here, catering to... that.
I'm just glad I have other options.
Come now, Tekken Tag on PS2 (US version) was ridiculously clean for a PS2 game.
Here's a capture from a PS2, in fact:
Parapraxis
Member
Guys, this is a Non-issue.
And don't you dare fucking think it IS.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91092740&postcount=13503
Yeah, I didn't realize that thread was a bit of a circlejecrk when I stumbled upon it, I really hope I am not banned =/
And don't you dare fucking think it IS.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91092740&postcount=13503
Yeah, I didn't realize that thread was a bit of a circlejecrk when I stumbled upon it, I really hope I am not banned =/
Whiteshirt
Member
Same here, the last few months have really flipped my world view around.
Microsoft's choices with regards to Xbox 360 gamma and Xbox One post processing bullshit has to definitely be focus grouped shit. They also know a lot of idiots will try to justify their decision...I lost my shit when I read someone say that because their 720P projector looked amazing on a 110" wall, resolution isn't really all that important. The one thing I've learnt from all of this resolution crap is that people are really blind to things like aliasing and poor texture filtering.
PS4 owners, do you prefer a natural image that isn't artificially sharpened? Well here you go.
PS4 owners, do you prefer too much sharpening, crushed blacks. Well just put your TV in vivid mode.
Xbox owners, do you prefer too much sharpening and crushed blacks? Good, good
Xbox owners, do you prefer a natural image that isn't artificially sharpened? Tough shit.
This is crying out for a DF article
PS4 owners, do you prefer too much sharpening, crushed blacks. Well just put your TV in vivid mode.
Xbox owners, do you prefer too much sharpening and crushed blacks? Good, good
Xbox owners, do you prefer a natural image that isn't artificially sharpened? Tough shit.
This is crying out for a DF article
Well that's like, your opinion man.
It's in issue ESPECIALLY for it being marketed As a nextgen console. I'm just glad that 720p movie aren't treated the same way... Oh wait actually come to think of it can someone please check to see if they are. THAT would be a major issue for a supposed entertainment box.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Yeah, but if they give everyone the option to set things up correctly, then some media outlets will do just that.
Then you won't have reactions like in that IGN comment section.
MS is doing this on purpose and it's fucking diabolical.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Makes sense if the sharping is due to some post process effect applied by the scaler if the game is running non-native resolutions?
Didn't 360 have some problems with crushed blacks if the game wasn't gamma corrected properly as it used gamma 2.0 profile instead of the standard 2.2?
Backfoggen
Banned
When I snap shit to Ryse it's sharpened too.
Microsoft had a policy for 360 requiring developers to implement 2xAA in all games. If I recall correctly, this was actually a certification requirement, although it was lifted eventually (it could also be waived within reason, specially by first parties). This was also before FXAA was developed. That is probably the reason for marketing speeches about jaggies being a thing of the past and such.
In my opinion this is what we have now. Microsoft is probably forcing a mandatory sharpen/contrast filter for all games rendering under 1080 as a certification requirement. This destroys IQ and gives you headaches, but makes native resolution less obvious, something very important since they are not competitive in the performance department.
Judging by mainstream reviews, it is working.
In my opinion this is what we have now. Microsoft is probably forcing a mandatory sharpen/contrast filter for all games rendering under 1080 as a certification requirement. This destroys IQ and gives you headaches, but makes native resolution less obvious, something very important since they are not competitive in the performance department.
Judging by mainstream reviews, it is working.
Chobel
Member
I think you're into something here, but your theory doesn't explain why Ryse isn't using sharpen/contrast filter.
Come now, Tekken Tag on PS2 (US version) was ridiculously clean for a PS2 game.
Here's a capture from a PS2, in fact:
My mind was blown when I saw tekken tag on the ps2 since I was so used to seeing the arcade version. It really looks a full iteration ahead
Ryse is detected by the Xbone as 1080p,the game is internally rendering at 900p,then upscale by the game itself rather than relying on the scaler chip.
eso76
Member
Crytek stated that their game is rendered at 900p and upscaled to 1080p using THEIR OWN software scaler.
It doesn't rely on the consoles hardware scaling, that's why it's not 'sharpened'.
Chobel
Member
I know that, I was asking him about his theory in which he said that MS is forcing All devs (TRC) that are rendering under 1080p to use sharpen/contrast filter.
eso76
Member
ah, ok.
I don't think it's a requirement, i think that's just how the console's scaler works.
They certainly designed the scaler to sharpen the image to contrast the muddy upscaled look xbone games would have compared to native 1080p.
Depending on your tv scaler, you might want to set the console to output in 720p for 720p games to avoid the sharpening filter.
ChainsawFilms
Member
That's very interesting....
So.... Ryse does the scaling in software, 900->1080, and looks good. Snap it, image shrinks, ths OS automatically scales things, and the hardware scaler does it's thing - sharpening / crushing?
On the plus side, seems the HW scaler can be turned off if the devs want to. Bad news is most probably won't bother with a custom solution.
Almost certainly the HW scaler can be updated to not crush and sharpen, but it's gone this far through development and launch, you suspect this is the MS Secret Sauce to Make Up The 30% (lol, as it it were only 30%). They like the look this gives, they kept that awful crushed blacks / over saturated look on the 360, so maybe that's just The XBox Look.
Thing is, you do know some people will prefer it over a natural look.
ChainsawFilms
Member
I think you'd need a really shit TV to mess up the scaling as much as the console itself. From the screenshots I've seen, I'd DEFINITELY run the console in 720, let the TV handle things, and on those games higher than 720, rejoice in the Free AA
Of the native 1080 games, do any exhibit the crushing / over saturation?
polyh3dron
Banned
My memories must have come from playing a Japanese import before the PS2 was even out in the US officially. It didn't get the name "Tekken Jag Tournament" for nothing.Come now, Tekken Tag on PS2 (US version) was ridiculously clean for a PS2 game.
Here's a capture from a PS2, in fact:
720p + The Secret Sauce Scaler =The Xbox Look
The crushed blacks are ruining the console for me, with KI being the main offender, it just looks god damn awful.
Has anyone put this to MS at all? It needs sorting sooner rather than later. Also glad it's not just me who spotted this, I've gone through so much settings in the passed days, it's killed any enjoyment with the console so far.
Has anyone put this to MS at all? It needs sorting sooner rather than later. Also glad it's not just me who spotted this, I've gone through so much settings in the passed days, it's killed any enjoyment with the console so far.