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The Official Halo 3 Thread
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Mr Vociferous
Member
I'm 100% certain it's a new version of Lockout.alisdair said:
The biggest piece of evidence to suggest that this is, in fact, Lockout, is that they have not denied it despite the collective assent amongst the community. Let's say we got it wrong and it's not Lockout - if you were in their shoes wouldn't you attempt to flatly answer the claim? To set proper expectations? Especially after the Sidewinder/Avalanche incident?
Well, I might be making a few assumptions, but I'd bet money that it is Lockout. I think Frank handled the Dutch image as best as you can in his situation. At this point, they're used to getting thrown under the bus by European publications now, so when these journalists stopped by to play the new maps, I'm guessing that Bungie expected something like this to happen. That they've been able to wrangle any question about the maps name/shape is an impressive display of sleight of hand.
Mr Vociferous said:
I agree with this. Regarding the image, Frankie laughed and said he didn't recognize what it looked like, but hasn't confirmed/denied that it'll be Lockout.
I really hope it is, since Midship was like my least favorite map. =/
Actually, I hated all the maps in Halo2, but that's because I suuuuucked. X3
Oh I almost forgot. since it's only 5:20 in Bungieland, I can safely say this:
in before shitstorm!
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Whenever any of the Bungie gophers wake, any chance of of telling us when, time wise, we can expect to see the updates?
If it's late in the evening, my UK timezone may force me to wait until tomorrow morning.
If it's late in the evening, my UK timezone may force me to wait until tomorrow morning.
ice cream said:
I'm guessing people were talking about the Dutch magazine cover. Conveniently, someone at the HBO forums took the picture apart to reveal that it's quite an obvious fake.
This doesn't mean that the map won't still be Lockout, of course.
Shake Appeal
Member
Why aren't maps free yet? I have people waiting to download these to play them with me.
I don't know that I agree with that. Would most people really be disappointed if it was Midship instead of Lockout? Really? I think Frankie in particular would cackle with delight if he'd manage to misdirect the analysts.Mr Vociferous said:
Having re-read your DLC guesses, I now don't think it's Midship. Two quotes: "littered with fusion cores" and "chilly, isolated structure" don't really fit. Midship only had fusion cores in one place, and I can't see why they'd litter the remake with them. And it was inside, so hopefully fairly warm, as opposed to snowy Lockout. Oh well
alisdair said:I don't know that I agree with that. Would most people really be disappointed if it was Midship instead of Lockout? Really? I think Frankie in particular would cackle with delight if he'd manage to misdirect the analysts.
Having re-read your DLC guesses, I now don't think it's Midship. Two quotes: "littered with fusion cores" and "chilly, isolated structure" don't really fit. Midship only had fusion cores in one place, and I can't see why they'd litter the remake with them. And it was inside, so hopefully fairly warm, as opposed to snowy Lockout. Oh well
The quotes from Moonlight Sonata really do lead you to believe that it is Lockout.
However, the quotes from Purple Reign can lead you to believe that it is Midship, but they also said that Purple Reign is a new map, so...
The Lamonster
Member
oh snap! Bungie took SWAT down early and now the Heroic pack still isn't free?
those poor, poor Manbabies are having a bad week
those poor, poor Manbabies are having a bad week
The Lamonster
Member
This thread will slowly fall apart until we get some info. It's part of HaloGAF's DNA.Sai-kun said:so some peeps I was playing with a few nights ago were raggin' on my lovely Splazer. >:{ I showed them!
Spartan Laser Defense Force...assemble!
...*cough*.
Hey where's my map reveal pls.
I love it :lol
Mr Vociferous
Member
Don't fret brotha, I adored Midship as well and I feel good that we'll see it (in one form or another) eventually. I think Purple Reign sounds like its playing well, similarly to Midship/Sanctuary - so hopefully that brings the small-map symmetrical game back to Halo.alisdair said:Having re-read your DLC guesses, I now don't think it's Midship. Two quotes: "littered with fusion cores" and "chilly, isolated structure" don't really fit. Midship only had fusion cores in one place, and I can't see why they'd litter the remake with them. And it was inside, so hopefully fairly warm, as opposed to snowy Lockout. Oh well
I saw some arguments about Lockout and Midship here last night and about what makes Halo's multiplayer maps work, so I thought I would chime in my own (highly-subjective/opinionated) $0.02 before the attention swings fully toward the new map. I agree with Ramirez and others who feel that the multiplayer maps in Halo 3 generally can't hold a candle to the ones in Halo 2. It's an unfair comparison because we have 23 maps to choose from with Halo 2, while only 14 in Halo 3, but I think it's reasonable, as fans, for us to examine why.
Certainly it's not because Halo 2's combat system, core mechanics and weapon/vehicle systems were superior - they weren't, in fact, I'd argue that they were at a low point in the series with those systems. Halo 2 had severe power weapon issues, excessive auto-aim/aim assist, worthless vehicles (in the light of certain weapons) and the overly-aggressive lunge melee. It was broken in many respects and this actually hurt some of the more interesting maps (Containment/Relic).
Halo 3 has fixed many if not all of these issues. It's the peak of the series in terms of combat mechanics and vehicle interplay. Everything which functions in Halo 3 functions almost exactly as we would hope for, although some still contend with the melee arbitration system. The problem in Halo 3 is with the map design philosophy, as well as the fact that for years Halo fans have been playing the best of the best from the Halo 2 crop. We expected the best from Halo 3 right at the start and that was unfair.
I think the two things which kill maps are improper execution of compartmentalization (as it pertains to line of sight and combat space) and linearity/non-linearity (in regards to choice and combat flow).
One thing Halo 3 does well (that Halo 2 didn't do often) is compartmentalize its large and upper-midsize maps. Valhalla, for me is the best large map in the series for this very reason. Combat areas, choke points and clear visual queues make this map as close to perfection as we're going to get from the series. High Ground, Rats Nest, Last Resort and Standoff seem to do this right as well tapping into the best possible balance for space, line of sight and choice.
The problem then with Halo 3 maps is when this concept is brought aggressively down to lower mid-size and small maps. With excessive compartmentalization, you get restricted combat flow, lack of line of sight and horrible interplay (both infantry-wise and vehicle-wise).
For example:
Walking down the corridors of Guardian, for example, compared to Lockout, feels like you're in one massive corridor. There's no freedom of movement - no option for agile players to move aggressively across the map, bounding from wall to wall during combat. It attempts to emulate this to some degree, but often it feels like there are too many hallways and too little cross-map combat, something BR-start fans who loved Lockout largely despise.
Another example is the The Pit, in my opinion not even a shadow of the symmetrical mid-size map we came to love in Sanctuary. Think about it for a second. Sanctuary had open lines of sight across the map, but it used compartmentalization sparingly. Most of The Pit is compartmentalized theres a massive wall which almost divides the entire map and movement on the map is very linear, you often have little choices but left or right which is something excessive compartmentalization does by its very nature. Sanctuary allowed you a great deal of free movement and choice, and the combat flowed well from marginal compartmentalization at center and along the sides.
Caveat: Now, keep in mind that I actually like both Guardian and The Pit, and Im not saying they should play identically to the aforementioned two, rather I'm comparing design philosophy changes. I obviously could have picked apart the more egregious examples of these problems in Halo 3 maps (Construct, Epitaph and Narrows), where you have only 3-4 ways across the map only and nearly all of the combat is compartmentalized, but I chose to use the better Halo 3 maps to show this rule applies across the board for the most part. It's a philosophy change, not a map problem.
Dont get me wrong, Halo 2 isnt without fault. I found Backwash, Foundation, Elongation and Gemini to largely frustrate Halos style of combat rather than properly employ it. But maps like Lockout, Midship, Ascension, Ivory Tower, Warlock and Turf (among the aforementioned) knew how to use space, choke points and combat flow appropriately so I hope to see more of that in the future. I have high hopes for Ghost Town. Ive heard good things about it and Im really excited for the way it will play. I don't need remakes, I just want the previous design philosophy to return. Id also like a Terminal/Relic-esque map. 1-Flag is easily my favorite gametype and I enjoy it a lot on High Ground and Zanzibar, but neither have the scale of the first two. With Halo 3s vehicle interplay, I cant imagine how awesome that would be.
Mr Vociferous said:Don't fret brotha, I adored Midship as well and I feel good that we'll see it (in one form or another) eventually. I think Purple Reign sounds like its playing well, similarly to Midship/Sanctuary - so hopefully that brings the small-map symmetrical game back to Halo.
I saw some arguments about Lockout and Midship here last night and about what makes Halo's multiplayer maps work, so I thought I would chime in my own (highly-subjective/opinionated) $0.02 before the attention swings fully toward the new map. I agree with Ramirez and others who feel that the multiplayer maps in Halo 3 generally can't hold a candle to the ones in Halo 2. It's an unfair comparison because we have 23 maps to choose from with Halo 2, while only 14 in Halo 3, but I think it's reasonable, as fans, for us to examine why.
Certainly it's not because Halo 2's combat system, core mechanics and weapon/vehicle systems were superior - they weren't, in fact, I'd argue that they were at a low point in the series with those systems. Halo 2 had severe power weapon issues, excessive auto-aim/aim assist, worthless vehicles (in the light of certain weapons) and the overly-aggressive lunge melee. It was broken in many respects and this actually hurt some of the more interesting maps (Containment/Relic).
Halo 3 has fixed many if not all of these issues. It's the peak of the series in terms of combat mechanics and vehicle interplay. Everything which functions in Halo 3 functions almost exactly as we would hope for, although some still contend with the melee arbitration system. The problem in Halo 3 is with the map design philosophy, as well as the fact that for years Halo fans have been playing the best of the best from the Halo 2 crop. We expected the best from Halo 3 right at the start and that was unfair.
I think the two things which kill maps are improper execution of compartmentalization (as it pertains to line of sight and combat space) and linearity/non-linearity (in regards to choice and combat flow).
One thing Halo 3 does well (that Halo 2 didn't do often) is compartmentalize its large and upper-midsize maps. Valhalla, for me is the best large map in the series for this very reason. Combat areas, choke points and clear visual queues make this map as close to perfection as we're going to get from the series. High Ground, Rats Nest, Last Resort and Standoff seem to do this right as well tapping into the best possible balance for space, line of sight and choice.
The problem then with Halo 3 maps is when this concept is brought aggressively down to lower mid-size and small maps. With excessive compartmentalization, you get restricted combat flow, lack of line of sight and horrible interplay (both infantry-wise and vehicle-wise).
For example:
Walking down the corridors of Guardian, for example, compared to Lockout, feels like you're in one massive corridor. There's no freedom of movement - no option for agile players to move aggressively across the map, bounding from wall to wall during combat. It attempts to emulate this to some degree, but often it feels like there are too many hallways and too little cross-map combat, something BR-start fans who loved Lockout largely despise.
VS.
Another example is the The Pit, in my opinion not even a shadow of the symmetrical mid-size map we came to love in Sanctuary. Think about it for a second. Sanctuary had open lines of sight across the map, but it used compartmentalization sparingly. Most of The Pit is compartmentalized theres a massive wall which almost divides the entire map and movement on the map is very linear, you often have little choices but left or right which is something excessive compartmentalization does by its very nature. Sanctuary allowed you a great deal of free movement and choice, and the combat flowed well from marginal compartmentalization at center and along the sides.
VS.
Caveat: Now, keep in mind that I actually like both Guardian and The Pit, and Im not saying they should play identically to the aforementioned two, rather I'm comparing design philosophy changes. I obviously could have picked apart the more egregious examples of these problems in Halo 3 maps (Construct, Epitaph and Narrows), where you have only 3-4 ways across the map only and nearly all of the combat is compartmentalized, but I chose to use the better Halo 3 maps to show this rule applies across the board for the most part. It's a philosophy change, not a map problem.
Dont get me wrong, Halo 2 isnt without fault. I found Backwash, Foundation, Elongation and Gemini to largely frustrate Halos style of combat rather than properly employ it. But maps like Lockout, Midship, Ascension, Ivory Tower, Warlock and Turf (among the aforementioned) knew how to use space, choke points and combat flow appropriately so I hope to see more of that in the future. I have high hopes for Ghost Town. Ive heard good things about it and Im really excited for the way it will play. I don't need remakes, I just want the previous design philosophy to return. Id also like a Terminal/Relic-esque map. 1-Flag is easily my favorite gametype and I enjoy it a lot on High Ground and Zanzibar, but neither have the scale of the first two. With Halo 3s vehicle interplay, I cant imagine how awesome that would be.
This post is full of so much win.
Since day one, the most talked about aspect of Halo 3 amongst me and my friends has been our general dislike towards mid-to-small sized maps. And again, like Vociferous, we think they are really good maps -- just something was wrong about them. He hit upon what that was extremely well. Would you then agree that Isolation is the closest to nailing the Halo 2 feel of small/mid-size maps?
The Lamonster
Member
Millions of tears were shed. Do not make light of this.fin said:
and thank you for quoting the entire thing just to say that.exfixate said:
Shake Appeal
Member
Vociferous has hammered all of the nails on the head above.
The Lamonster
Member
No worries, man.exfixate said:
I'd say Isolation doesn't follow the Halo 2 formula simply because it's not a fun map. All Halo 2 maps were excellent IMO. I don't exactly know why Isolation isn't fun but most other players I talk to agree with me that while it's certainly pretty, it's also certainly the worst map in Halo 3. I'd bet veto numbers are highest on Isolation as well.
Not to say I don't appreciate buttholes and their purpose in interplanetary warfare
sixthsubset
Banned
mr. vociferous is my hero. everything he says is right. that's like a post i wanted to make but using bigger words
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
The Lamonster said:No worries, man.
I'd say Isolation doesn't follow the Halo 2 formula simply because it's not a fun map. All Halo 2 maps were excellent IMO. I don't exactly know why Isolation isn't fun but most other players I talk to agree with me that while it's certainly pretty, it's also certainly the worst map in Halo 3. I'd bet veto numbers are highest on Isolation as well.
Not to say I don't appreciate buttholes and their purpose in interplanetary warfare
Isolation is easily one of my favourite maps, right after Snowbound and Valhalla. =)
sixthsubset
Banned
The Lamonster said:
well, there's a giant ridge in the middle. and huge tunnels underneath. it kind of sections it off too much. plus there's not alot of cover on top and it's just kind of like a big plain with rocks on it. and when you spawn in the base you have to run all the way up the tunnels to get outside and then once you finally get out you get shot right away from people standing on the big grey thing who have brs and snipers.
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