Only that he has gone through with it already, in my opinion. His teasing and the new design scream that Wii U Link will be unisex/gender-ambiguous. Link will be able to be seen as anything according to one's subjective perception.
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Aonuma: That was Link in the Wii U Zelda trailer, denies 'female' rumors
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Only that he has gone through with it already, in my opinion. His teasing and the new design scream that Wii U Link will be unisex/gender-ambiguous. Link will be able to be seen as anything according to one's subjective perception.
Spehornoob
Member
Have we run out of ways to explore these things with a male Link? Is there literally no other bit of exploration we could do with the lore or gameplay elements without changing Link to a female?
If not, then it could be argued that changing Link to a girl would be an unnecessary change to a character who's been fairly consistent for 25 years.
giving effeminate, but not necessarily gay males representation? Last generation some Japanese publishers seemed terrified that their males weren't manly enough, be it the redesigned raiden, the rebooted Dante or Chris, steroid, Redfield.
Are people actually arguing a woman couldn't hold a shield? Wtf?
The iron knuckles were actually women in OoT. There are plenty of in-universe examples of women holding heavy objects.
And even if this character was too weak, it would still be a Link-like characteristic. Link is usually too young/wimpy and often has to misuse objects that are too heavy (like the hylian shield on young Link) Link wasn't strong enough so he uses a goron bracelet or power glove/bracelet. This has always been a common occurance to prevent game progression.
Link has always been realistically weak and young. @__@ (except in cartoon Zeldas where realism never matters.)
OoT is about ageism and how screwed up it is for Link. And Link proves all the haters wrong by saving the world with just the courage he holds despite his age/appearance. We're talking about a ten year old here. A character who is a girl could do the same against sexism too.
Also Twilight Princess was written by a woman and it is about the wrongs of intolerance and ignorance.
with Ganondorf and Zant being intolerant and Midna and Link eventually becoming tolerant. (After they start understanding each other.)
The iron knuckles were actually women in OoT. There are plenty of in-universe examples of women holding heavy objects.
And even if this character was too weak, it would still be a Link-like characteristic. Link is usually too young/wimpy and often has to misuse objects that are too heavy (like the hylian shield on young Link) Link wasn't strong enough so he uses a goron bracelet or power glove/bracelet. This has always been a common occurance to prevent game progression.
Link has always been realistically weak and young. @__@ (except in cartoon Zeldas where realism never matters.)
OoT is about ageism and how screwed up it is for Link. And Link proves all the haters wrong by saving the world with just the courage he holds despite his age/appearance. We're talking about a ten year old here. A character who is a girl could do the same against sexism too.
Also Twilight Princess was written by a woman and it is about the wrongs of intolerance and ignorance.
with Ganondorf and Zant being intolerant and Midna and Link eventually becoming tolerant. (After they start understanding each other.)
stufte
Member
We don't need a female Link. We do need NEW compelling female characters from new IPs. Trying to force a gender change into an established character is shallow, when a new female character can stand on her own and become a beloved character from the get-go.
Or lets just make Link female. IDGAF. I'll play it either way, because it doesn't matter what gender he is.
Or lets just make Link female. IDGAF. I'll play it either way, because it doesn't matter what gender he is.
I see your point and it's a valid one, I'm not saying it has to be 100% realistic but at least for what I see there is some ground...for example Link needs two arms to wield the biggoron sword, which is a very heavy non-magical sword. That is an example of some real world contamination. As far as the picture, it does seem huge...but isn't that a mighty darknut? there's a chance that armor and weapons were forged especially to be possessed or controlled by evil...unless I'm missing something..
nobody is arguing that.
Dice//
Banned
I think you're reading, like, waaaaaaaaayyy too much into this.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Taking a stance against needless change is a fairly weak one as by definition such a stance shouldn't exist if said change is needless IE doesn't matter.
Moving on from an irrelevant point. Aside from Aonuma's vague comments in the trailer, the game was shown as a shaking up of the Zelda formula (as what we've been told) by the "open-world" vibe expressed. Arguably such "shaking up" would be a perfect time to test and flesh new things out, one of these so happens to be a female Link (which we already established (atleast I hope we did) wouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things).
Whether Link or not is a male or female in this upcoming installment is ultimately irrelevant, but again the issue is the steadfast opposition against an irrelevant possibility.
Vermillion
Banned
The series is about magic. And if you're that concerned, the Power Bracelet exists.
But as you say, its been 25 years so it is understandable why many would see Link as male. I mean you could apply the if they were a female/male from the beginning it would make no difference theory to practically any character. You are still putting a weighting (" things that matter") on the why when there really shouldn't be one. If they feel Link should be male forever then fair enough. They don't really have to come up wit a mystical reason as to why especially as I suspect many wouldn't even accept said reasons.
Something I was thinking about last night, just as a thought experiment, what would happen to the series if this game did have a female Link? Not even concerning fan reaction, but just where would you go from there?
Suppose this game has a female Link. Does the next mainline Zelda game also feature a female Link? If it does, does it feel like that's the new status quo? If it doesn't, does it make it look like female Link was just a one-time experiment, or worse a token gesture? Do you just alternate between genders every other game?
I'm curious about this: if you're going to change the status quo of a long-standing series, what's the best way to go about it? (the same applies to, for example, a female Doctor or Bond)
Suppose this game has a female Link. Does the next mainline Zelda game also feature a female Link? If it does, does it feel like that's the new status quo? If it doesn't, does it make it look like female Link was just a one-time experiment, or worse a token gesture? Do you just alternate between genders every other game?
I'm curious about this: if you're going to change the status quo of a long-standing series, what's the best way to go about it? (the same applies to, for example, a female Doctor or Bond)
yes I already addressed that 2 posts ago, I was just explaining my train (wreck) of thought since apparently I'm coming off as a chauvinist caveman
LordOfChaos
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They should just let me be Zelda.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Again the "feeling Link is a male" has no credibility when the other side brings up how a female Link can fit harmoniously with the fundamentals you have quoted. So ultimately, why is it the "feel" argument is still being repeated and pushed forward when it is trivial in comparison to female Link supporters?
I actually give credence that in that people saying a Zelda or non-Link-but-female protagonist would be better than just a female Link. That argument has weight to it because it deals with the aforementioned fundamentals. "Feeling Link is a male" does not.
Dice//
Banned
I actually think Nintendo have been taking strides with Zelda anyway.
Zelda herself has been portrayed as a much stronger character in her own right in a few games as of late, often helping in combat or just generally being less of a damsel in distress. And the fact that 3 of the playable characters in Hyrule Warriors are female is proof that Nintendo is making an effort.
With that in mind surely it's forgivable if they decide to leave one of their biggest and most popular icons as is?
Sometimes change for changes sake isn't the best option. Some things are okay to leave alone. I'd like to see someone have the front to create new games and characters with different leads rather than trying to fit them in with existing ones.
Zelda herself has been portrayed as a much stronger character in her own right in a few games as of late, often helping in combat or just generally being less of a damsel in distress. And the fact that 3 of the playable characters in Hyrule Warriors are female is proof that Nintendo is making an effort.
With that in mind surely it's forgivable if they decide to leave one of their biggest and most popular icons as is?
Sometimes change for changes sake isn't the best option. Some things are okay to leave alone. I'd like to see someone have the front to create new games and characters with different leads rather than trying to fit them in with existing ones.
Just read them. I apologize for not having done so before (I have a tenancy to get wound up on these issues) since you have a really interesting and ambitious take on what Link should be as a symbol of gender fluidity. If that's truly what Aonuma is trying to do with this new Link, if Link can become the literal "link" between all genders of all players, then that's even more progressive than changing his established sex. I hope that that's what all this teasing is leading to.
I have personal doubts over whether Nintendo would be that forward thinking just yet, but it's a nice thing to hope for.
stufte
Member
But why do people "feel" that Link should be female? What are the arguments for a gender change beyond feelings?
You still might. All we know about the game is the minute we've seen of it. There is still the possibility of something like that happening.
Would that appease those who want a female Link though?
Version 3.0
Member
I'd say there's fewer people insisting he shouldn't be a girl than those insisting he should be. Most people are just stating a simple fact: he's a boy (again).
Show me the nerd rage that he must not be a girl. Count them up. I'll match you with posts saying he must be a girl, or Nintendo is out of touch / sexist / boring / scared.
jacksepticeye
Member
Aw man that would have been interesting
AnathemicOne
Banned
If you did some research beforehand or looked at 1-2 pages ago, the push for Link being a female is based off speculation derived from Aonuma's intentionally-vague comments, while it was not the starting point it is what ultimately came out of it (arguably).
There is no "feeling" done here, it was thought processes derived from trailer elements (over)analyzed in repeated process. When people presented this conclusion they were met with the steadfast opposition of how "it can't be" and what I (and others) and trying to do here is figure out "why" which has revealed have to do with arbitrary "feeling".
Spehornoob
Member
If Link had been portrayed as a female the past 25 years, then Link would be up there with Samus Aran and Lara Croft as one of the biggest female characters in gaming. It would absolutely be different in terms of brand recognition.
Version 3.0
Member
Disagreeing with "Link should be a girl" is not the same thing as insisting he be a boy.
Super Stardust
Member
Why do people want a female Link? It's like asking for a female Mario. If nintendo is going to make a female main character in the zelda universe then it should be either a zelda spinoff or a new ip thing like hyrule warriors. Legend of zelda is links game, it wouldn't be zelda without him.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think the problem is that a lot of us feel Nintendo resists changing certain things about some of its core franchises.
Its the same reason no one has an expectation that characters will be voiced in this one, even though its starting to be weird in 2015 that a game will have nothing but on screen text; I mean, unvoiced dialogue isn't actually some kind of special feature for the franchise.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Would it? Nothing Link has done speaks of "male" in-game and on the flipside nothing Link has done speaks of "female" in-game. If we are going purely by physical presentation Link has always been portrayed as "pretty elf boy" with a move in character design towards androgyny. If you were to flip that over Link would been portrayed as a "tomboy" with a move in character design towards androgyny.
Arguably both scenarios are equivalent and wouldn't affect brand recognition in a meaningful way.
Reading the thread will do you wonders.
Sure, but then people ask "why" and they are replied with the insisting that he must remain male.
Because it isn't like that, at all. People have already brought up how it makes sense and works with the established lore and the fact that it is NEVER the same Link (obvious exceptions like OoT -> MM and WW -> PH aside) in these games and, honestly, that is reason enough to completely destroy all of the whole "Nintendo may as well turn Mario into a girl and Samus a dude" crap.
stufte
Member
I've read most of the thread before I posted, thank you. The feeling thing can go both ways. As I've said before I don't care if Link ended up being female, but there are more people here flipping out that he isn't female than the other way around. If people want a strong female lead character, compel Nintendo to create one, not just change an existing character female. It's a weak gesture.
Version 3.0
Member
I've posted several times that I'm in favor of a female Link, but this thread has changed my mind. I thought it would be mostly irrelevant if this Link were female, and it would just be a nice little refreshing change.
But now, I realize that if Link were female, then every single other thing about this new Zelda game would be overshadowed by that change. This would be "the one where Link is a girl", and that would dominate all coverage, all discussion, and ultimately define how the game is remembered.
Too many people make too big a deal of it. I'd rather the game be noted for itself, not some silly manufactured controversy. Pass.
Aquamarine
Member
But it's Zelda's legend....+
AnathemicOne
Banned
What I've read in this thread is people are disappointed in Link not being a female (which is understandable given Aonuma's vague comments and failed speculation) but are still intent in buying the game. Where is this "flipping out" you speak of? If you've read the thread you'd know I've already compiled a list of select quotes, may you do the same for me?
Spehornoob
Member
It would. Much like Samus, Link would be one of the pre-eminent females in gaming. In this industry, that's not something small. It's not something that "just is",
Not to mention, going through the 80s and 90s, there would have been absolutely no romantic overtones with Zelda or any other girls in the series. That almost definitely wouldn't have flown during that time period. So there's a major change right there in that one of the defining relationships in the games, Link and Zelda, would have a very different connotation to it.
The idea that, if Link were a female, that we'd have the exact same series as we do today, with exact same type of recognition, is very, very improbable.
Version 3.0
Member
This is a nice big thread, and there's another even larger. How many examples can you provide?
Damn. I lost all the multi-quotes I had since I'm on mobile. Lots of good points made but I have yet to see anyone qualify why Link has to be male. Meanwhile, I can qualify why I want Link to be female, I'll do that shortly. Needless to say, I'm pretty sure this is the most nuanced discussion I've ever had about The Legend of Zelda.
I want Link to be female because I'm more interested in any possible gameplay and story changes that would arise from it than (most likely) anything else they could change. I want to explore the story of a young girl who's thrust into the role of a hero and to save the world. Maybe she has to use a bow as her main weapon because she prefers it as she's not easily able to wield a sword. Why did someone train this young girl as a warrior instead of teaching her how to sew (or they did both)? Did she do any training before becoming a hero (gender roadblocks) or does she have to learn along the way? Do any generally gender specific roles she's taught come in handy during saving the world? Maybe she's berated by people who don't she can do it because she's a meek not necessarily physically strong girl. Is Zelda still a love interest in this case or just a childhood friend? Would the goddesses or any other entities treat her any differently than they would? Maybe the story can focus on aspects of feminity that are unavailable to male Link.
I have lots of questions and situations that a young Link being a girl might react differently to than if she were male. It's why I don't think making her androgynous is a proper solution. Unless Nintendo were to handle such a thing with even more care than they usually do, the script at some point in the story would dictate the Link we're playing with as male. And it's why I support a toggle or slider or giving the player agency in the decision a lot more than androgynous Link but a lot less than just making her female in addition to screwing with the canon. It's possible introducing variables into that would make Zelda WiiU a rarely touched on or referenced part of the Zeldaverse relegating the decision to possibly make the protagonist female simply an anomaly (unless they were to carry on with that for the rest of the Zelda games). Though such a thing might also have a sufficient impact on the story. Making Link in this installation female would open the canon and a the other opportunities I listed and more. No they wouldn't have to keep to any pattern or standardization in future Zelda games but it would certainly open and keep open any possibilities. I am much more interested in this female Links unique story than I am in most (if not all) other gameplay and story changes they could make to The Legend of Zelda.
I absolutely earnestly encourage people who disagree to explain why they want/need to keep Link male in more extensive arguments. Because sadly, all I see ranges from "Because Link is male, duh" to "Because Link is male in my head". And that's not sufficient to me when I can say both of those and more.
AnathemicOne
Banned
If you read a little deeper into my statements I was specifically avoiding reference to the real-world climate regarding gender equity and whatnot, but since you put it out there I suppose its free game now.
Yes brand recognition would be affected, and perhaps I over-exaggerated in this fundamental when applied to the course of 25 years. But in terms of developer purpose in the game with brand recognition Link's gender wouldn't matter, why? Because developers have stated that Link exists as a self-insert role for the player to possess. Keeping this insight in mind, Legend of Zelda would never be spouted as an upholding of female protags just like Legend of Zelda currently is not acclaimed to be upholding on male protags (unlike say Gears of War or Metal Gear). To summarize, the Zelda franchise will still be what it is today with a female Link.
And if we were to go further, the current real-world climate for gender equity is of a progressive movement gaining more traction compared to any point in human history. With this in mind why wouldn't a female Link be supported (pushed forward?)
In case you didn't understand, bringing real-world climate into this in such an explicit manner is a no-go and would definitely bring the conversation into heavy off-topic territory.
In this discussion, the elephant in the room is being ignored: People have difficulty discerning Link's sex.
It is quite evident that Zelda Wii U will feature a Link that is significantly more effeminate than past games, to the point of creating confusion of whether this Link is male or female, or if it is Link at all. This directly points to a unisex appearance, where the sex cannot be easily discerned. You don't do this sort of thing unintentionally, this isn't a chance decision.
Aonuma teased about the topic too. In doing so, he shows exactly the above. He once more underlined that he does not Link to be so clearly defined, and that he wants Link to represent the player.
The new design, along with Aonuma's words make me believe that Zelda Wii U will feature a unisex Link (or genderless, or gender-ambiguous, or any other equivalent). Link has always been 'elvish' but this time this is clearly taken one step further. This time Link blurred the lines.
I think that this time, Link will be able to be seen as both. When the design is made in such a way, that people can't be sure of what they see is male or female, we have a unisex design that can be seen as both naturally. This is evident by the reactions spotted in discussions surrounding the topic. People have difficulty discerning, they need someone to tell them "What's the sex of this Link" and Aonuma replies with teasing and with talking about not clearly defining Link and representing the player.
On a more practical level, look at the design. Assume you know nothing about Link other than what you've seen in this trailer, what do you see? If people did this earnestly, I believe we'd get many different responses. That's exactly the point. By being ambiguous, this Link lets themselves be seen in any way. Wii U Link may lack breasts but that doesn't mean Link can't be female, just as not having facial hair doesn't mean Link can't be male. The other parts of the body will never be shown. This all leads to one thing: Interpret Link's sex as you want. It is left up to the player to interpret it. The player's subjective perception will be what decides Link's sex this time, not a pronoun (which Japanese can and does throw out of the window by the way), not obvious sexual characteristics (which don't exist on Wii U Link or are otherwise unknown, and impossible to know).
I believe this is revolutionary. I may be reading too much into it, but all that has been shown points towards this. I think it's genius. Link's Wii U design transcends the boundaries of sex and gender into the domain of unisex and personal interpretation and perception takes the scene. It's an incredibly creative opportunity that I am convinced Aonuma has identified and taken with the new design.
As to the matter of inclusiveness, a unisex Link is infinitely more inclusive than any female Link, any male Link, or any "pick your sex Link". It's also an original and innovative way of presenting a character in a very broad context. There are precedents in Japanese pop-media. People often slander anime, manga, JRPGs and the like, but unisex or effeminate-male or masculine-female characters are not at all uncommon. There is also a clear precedent with Link's designs. Everyone knows that Link is elf-like, that possesses "feminine" traits but it also that brave young boy, countless games attest to that. In this new game however, I'm seeing something different and I believe it is intentional.
The design is vague, Aonuma's wording is vague, the teasing is vague. That's because Link's sex this time is vague. People will be able to project onto Link what they feel as a person and that will, in fact, actually fit. Link looks like either because Link is neither but can be either or neither or all at once. The design doesn't have to be binary, it doesn't have to be either male or female and that's exactly what the design expresses.
I won't accept this being wrong unless Aonuma flat-out denies all of this and the Japanese release uses sex-specific pronouns.
Otherwise, It's pure genius.
It is quite evident that Zelda Wii U will feature a Link that is significantly more effeminate than past games, to the point of creating confusion of whether this Link is male or female, or if it is Link at all. This directly points to a unisex appearance, where the sex cannot be easily discerned. You don't do this sort of thing unintentionally, this isn't a chance decision.
Aonuma teased about the topic too. In doing so, he shows exactly the above. He once more underlined that he does not Link to be so clearly defined, and that he wants Link to represent the player.
The new design, along with Aonuma's words make me believe that Zelda Wii U will feature a unisex Link (or genderless, or gender-ambiguous, or any other equivalent). Link has always been 'elvish' but this time this is clearly taken one step further. This time Link blurred the lines.
I think that this time, Link will be able to be seen as both. When the design is made in such a way, that people can't be sure of what they see is male or female, we have a unisex design that can be seen as both naturally. This is evident by the reactions spotted in discussions surrounding the topic. People have difficulty discerning, they need someone to tell them "What's the sex of this Link" and Aonuma replies with teasing and with talking about not clearly defining Link and representing the player.
On a more practical level, look at the design. Assume you know nothing about Link other than what you've seen in this trailer, what do you see? If people did this earnestly, I believe we'd get many different responses. That's exactly the point. By being ambiguous, this Link lets themselves be seen in any way. Wii U Link may lack breasts but that doesn't mean Link can't be female, just as not having facial hair doesn't mean Link can't be male. The other parts of the body will never be shown. This all leads to one thing: Interpret Link's sex as you want. It is left up to the player to interpret it. The player's subjective perception will be what decides Link's sex this time, not a pronoun (which Japanese can and does throw out of the window by the way), not obvious sexual characteristics (which don't exist on Wii U Link or are otherwise unknown, and impossible to know).
I believe this is revolutionary. I may be reading too much into it, but all that has been shown points towards this. I think it's genius. Link's Wii U design transcends the boundaries of sex and gender into the domain of unisex and personal interpretation and perception takes the scene. It's an incredibly creative opportunity that I am convinced Aonuma has identified and taken with the new design.
As to the matter of inclusiveness, a unisex Link is infinitely more inclusive than any female Link, any male Link, or any "pick your sex Link". It's also an original and innovative way of presenting a character in a very broad context. There are precedents in Japanese pop-media. People often slander anime, manga, JRPGs and the like, but unisex or effeminate-male or masculine-female characters are not at all uncommon. There is also a clear precedent with Link's designs. Everyone knows that Link is elf-like, that possesses "feminine" traits but it also that brave young boy, countless games attest to that. In this new game however, I'm seeing something different and I believe it is intentional.
The design is vague, Aonuma's wording is vague, the teasing is vague. That's because Link's sex this time is vague. People will be able to project onto Link what they feel as a person and that will, in fact, actually fit. Link looks like either because Link is neither but can be either or neither or all at once. The design doesn't have to be binary, it doesn't have to be either male or female and that's exactly what the design expresses.
I won't accept this being wrong unless Aonuma flat-out denies all of this and the Japanese release uses sex-specific pronouns.
Otherwise, It's pure genius.
IrishNinja
Member
oh man you dont get how souls work at all
Super Stardust
Member
You have a lot of really good points. But just out of respect to the character he should stay male. Maybe they can make a new character that looks like link called Linka or something or just make a game where you play as zelda switched places with link where he's the prince.
Link's identity is widely established. It's not something that could be changed easily. It's easy for us to entertain the idea of a female Link, but it's harder for us to conceive how difficult it is to implement it on something so recognisable.
I don't get the arguments here regarding Mario can't be female. Mario's gender is more useless to the Mario series than Link's gender in the Zelda series.
I don't get the arguments here regarding Mario can't be female. Mario's gender is more useless to the Mario series than Link's gender in the Zelda series.
OK, sure, but what's your point? Zelda is as known as Link at this point.
AnathemicOne
Banned
I've already compiled a list of quotes relevant to the discussion at hand, asking me to do so again is childish and speaks of drive-by post insults. Do yourself a favor and compile a list of quotes for me in this thread that goes against to what I claimed of a "steadfast opposition to a female Link."
Edit: With that I leave this discussion for now as I want to continue my 3rd playthrough of Twilight Princess, will respond to any following posts directed to me if relevant.
If making Link a girl is not respecting his character, I fail to see how making him a prince would respect his character.
t-storm
Member
Oh for fuck's sake, zip it already. I mean really, you should listen to yourself.