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Are my friend's criticisms of Third Strike legitimate?

Shmuppers

Member
I have a friend on Steam that doesn't like Street Fighter 3 Third Strike, for the reasons mentioned below.

(Paraphrased from a conversation on Steam chat)

-Yun/Chun Li are too good, break the balance of the game

-Parries are bad game mechanic. "to successfully jump in, all you need is to tap forward;
any knockdown game is murdered because all you have to do is tap forward+ LP + LK
and you counter 90% of their options

-Any non-EX fireball thrown greater than half screen only serves to feed the other person meter

-Red parries make blockstrings nonexistant

"Parries are fun, hype, but as a game mechanic they tear away too much of the game."

Is any of this legitimate, or salt?
 

Ryu1999

Member
Viscant wrote a great article about why parries are bad for Street Fighter.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/951196/#Comment_951196

"Once again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is something I've been saying for years, but I don't think people even know the definition of mind games anymore. "I thought you were going to do this but you did that" is a mind game in the same way that Green Eggs and Ham is a book. In other SFs/other 2-D fighting games a distance character will make sacrifices of damage (either for or against) in order to achieve the desired position. In almost all versions of SF2, playing Dhalsim involved a fair amount of getting hit on purpose just to get some kind of other objective. This is not in any game with parries. Why would it be? There's not even a Dhalsim like character in the game because distance fighting is mostly irrelevant.

Also even in the mid-range game, there are FAR fewer multi-level setups. For example, ST Vega. A lot of the time I'm poking, I'm not trying to get any damage. If you happen to run into something, that's fine. I'm just trying to move you out of that space. In 3s, this doesn't exist. Why would you back up? You can't damage me from back there. What would I gain by you jumping? You still have access to your strongest defensive option in the air and for some characters, you have multiple offensive options in the air also. I gain nothing from moving you. This is why there is no Vega-type character in SF3. He'd be less than useless. These are the types of things that this kind of game eliminates.

Also, even the most basic element of position is useless in this game except for combos. Because fireballs are mostly useless, you can't really use the stage as a weapon in this kind of game. For example in ST, on Ken's stage if I have a dominating FB, half the fight for me is trying to put you in the corner and then trying to stand on the dock pillar. By ceding that position to me, you probably lost the round right there. There's nothing even REMOTELY close to that in any game with a parry. This dumbs the game down tremendously. You no longer have to worry about stopping my drive for position and avoiding this kind of strategy. You no longer have to think about whether or not I'm sacrificing damage for position or going out of my way for some kind of throw/move that will put you in the corner. This strategy is dead.

And on the topic of character variety, you completely missed the point. For the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you. (You're wrong by the way since 3 of the 4 characters you listed play as semi-grapplers, but again, let's say for the sake of argument that I agree) These character archetypes are in other 2-D games, but all those other types of characters that can't be put into a game with a parry are in too. Even pretending I agree with you, that's less than 1/2 the character variety that shows up even in half-assed 2-D games like CFJ and CvS1. For better games like ST, CvS2, a couple versions of KoF, that's probably less than 1/3.


As I've been saying before, this is why 2-D fighting is mostly dead. Why would you even bother putting out another 2-D fighting game when even the enthusiasts of the game don't really understand what makes 2-D fighting work.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com"
 
Evo moment 34 says "No!".

The funny thing is Daigo didn't even play that much of the game compared to pretty much any other Street Fighter.

Also everyone loves to bring up that moment yet won't admit it also completely kills a lot of offensive options. The game is basically about who has the best pokes.

So yeah the complaint is legitimate. But people will disagree while basically saying nothing. Post #3 says it best.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
3rd Strike makes the game very different to traditional Street Fighter. It's true that the game's mechanics removes quite a bit that's a big part of Street Fighter, but at the same time it adds a lot that you won't find in other games.

Yun/Chun-Li being good is no different from other fighters with dominant top tier characters.

Parries do not make jump-ins free. Jumping is still really risky in this game, just a little less in other games.

EX fireballs are treated a bit different compared to SF4. Yes, they can choose to parry it, but it can help you dash in if that's what they choose to.

I don't get the red parry complaint at all. Block strings are just as strong as any other SF game. A successful red parry doesn't lead to a guaranteed punish either, the opponent still has options after a parry.

It's not surprising that the parry system turns him off since it's pretty polarizing. Personally I think it's cool, but it's not something I'd want in every fighter, but it makes 3S what it is with how things revolve around it. The neutral game and wakeup game can offer a lot other fighters can't in terms with the different set of mindgames it can create.
 

Crayon

Member
I'm not crazy about the parry system. Fun for casual play but at the end of the day it's a shallow mechanic. The fact that you can weave them in all over the place with no consequence really puts a damper on it.
 

remz

Member
-Parries are bad game mechanic. "to successfully jump in, all you need is to tap forward;
any knockdown game is murdered because all you have to do is tap forward+ LP + LK
and you counter 90% of their options

so not true. so massively oversimplifying the game and decision making involved. I guess your friend comes out of top of 90% of his knockdowns due to this knowledge?
 

petghost

Banned
They are certainly not unpopular opinions. I personally love the game but recognize it doesn't include some of the classic sf strategy some people expect and that genei jin and chun are whack. Still a one of a kind experience that I love.
 
so not true. so massively oversimplifying the game and decision making involved. I guess your friend comes out of top of 90% of his knockdowns due to this knowledge?

Did you seriously just call Viscant "his friend" like he isn't one of the better fighting game players to ever play?

Dude is an Evo champ ffs. I love how this thread is basically going exactly how I expected. At best people are just saying "lol he's wrong" yet they can't seem to actually explain how he's wrong anywhere nearly as he's explains his own points.
 
I have a friend on Steam that doesn't like Street Fighter 3 Third Strike, for the reasons mentioned below.

(Paraphrased from a conversation on Steam chat)

-Yun/Chun Li are too good, break the balance of the game

-Parries are bad game mechanic. "to successfully jump in, all you need is to tap forward;
any knockdown game is murdered because all you have to do is tap forward+ LP + LK
and you counter 90% of their options

-Any non-EX fireball thrown greater than half screen only serves to feed the other person meter

-Red parries make blockstrings nonexistant

"Parries are fun, hype, but as a game mechanic they tear away too much of the game."

Is any of this legitimate, or salt?

Not everyone can parry first of all so it's not brain dead in that sense.

Yun and chun are broken yes but if 3rd strike was released during the patches era I'm pretty sure they would be corrected.

3S and alpha 3 are the SF games I enjoy the most despite being broken.

Alpha 2 and SI are underrated.
 

nded

Member
I think it's a little overrated, personally. Its status as one of the last great sprite-based fighters shields it a bit from scrutiny.
 

remz

Member
Did you seriously just call Viscant "his friend" like he isn't one of the better fighting game players to ever play?

Dude is an Evo champ ffs. I love how this thread is basically going exactly how I expected. At best people are just saying "lol he's wrong" yet they can't seem to actually explain how he's wrong anywhere nearly as he's explains his own points.

how many times has viscant won 3S? isn't he an mvc3 player...


edit: also, if you read that quote isn't from Viscant to begin with.
 

cantona222

Member
Why are you focusing on 3rd strike? are the mentioned points not in SF3 & SF3 2nd impact? I am not that familiar with SF3, so just wondering.

So parries are not in SF3 or SF3: 2nd impact?
 

Shmuppers

Member
Viscant wrote a great article about why parries are bad for Street Fighter.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/951196/#Comment_951196

"Once again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is something I've been saying for years, but I don't think people even know the definition of mind games anymore. "I thought you were going to do this but you did that" is a mind game in the same way that Green Eggs and Ham is a book. In other SFs/other 2-D fighting games a distance character will make sacrifices of damage (either for or against) in order to achieve the desired position. In almost all versions of SF2, playing Dhalsim involved a fair amount of getting hit on purpose just to get some kind of other objective. This is not in any game with parries. Why would it be? There's not even a Dhalsim like character in the game because distance fighting is mostly irrelevant.

Also even in the mid-range game, there are FAR fewer multi-level setups. For example, ST Vega. A lot of the time I'm poking, I'm not trying to get any damage. If you happen to run into something, that's fine. I'm just trying to move you out of that space. In 3s, this doesn't exist. Why would you back up? You can't damage me from back there. What would I gain by you jumping? You still have access to your strongest defensive option in the air and for some characters, you have multiple offensive options in the air also. I gain nothing from moving you. This is why there is no Vega-type character in SF3. He'd be less than useless. These are the types of things that this kind of game eliminates.

Also, even the most basic element of position is useless in this game except for combos. Because fireballs are mostly useless, you can't really use the stage as a weapon in this kind of game. For example in ST, on Ken's stage if I have a dominating FB, half the fight for me is trying to put you in the corner and then trying to stand on the dock pillar. By ceding that position to me, you probably lost the round right there. There's nothing even REMOTELY close to that in any game with a parry. This dumbs the game down tremendously. You no longer have to worry about stopping my drive for position and avoiding this kind of strategy. You no longer have to think about whether or not I'm sacrificing damage for position or going out of my way for some kind of throw/move that will put you in the corner. This strategy is dead.

And on the topic of character variety, you completely missed the point. For the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you. (You're wrong by the way since 3 of the 4 characters you listed play as semi-grapplers, but again, let's say for the sake of argument that I agree) These character archetypes are in other 2-D games, but all those other types of characters that can't be put into a game with a parry are in too. Even pretending I agree with you, that's less than 1/2 the character variety that shows up even in half-assed 2-D games like CFJ and CvS1. For better games like ST, CvS2, a couple versions of KoF, that's probably less than 1/3.


As I've been saying before, this is why 2-D fighting is mostly dead. Why would you even bother putting out another 2-D fighting game when even the enthusiasts of the game don't really understand what makes 2-D fighting work.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com"

This more or less answers my question. Thank you Ryu1999.
 
-Parries are bad game mechanic. "to successfully jump in, all you need is to tap forward;
any knockdown game is murdered because all you have to do is tap forward+ LP + LK
and you counter 90% of their options
I'm no expert, but this just sound flat out wrong.

-Any non-EX fireball thrown greater than half screen only serves to feed the other person meter
Because we've never seen a failed parry from top players, let alone those who aren't top...

-Red parries make blockstrings nonexistant
Modify your block strings instead of being repetitive

"Parries are fun, hype, but as a game mechanic they tear away too much of the game."
I don't understand how. I guess, if you are trying to play it like Street Fighter 2 instead of Third Strike.

Is any of this legitimate, or salt?

Sounds like salt. If it isn't, I'd love to see them play some noteworthy people and obliterate them.
 

Wiseblade

Member
I have a friend on Steam that doesn't like Street Fighter 3 Third Strike, for the reasons mentioned below.

(Paraphrased from a conversation on Steam chat)

-Yun/Chun Li are too good, break the balance of the game

-Parries are bad game mechanic. "to successfully jump in, all you need is to tap forward;
any knockdown game is murdered because all you have to do is tap forward+ LP + LK
and you counter 90% of their options

-Any non-EX fireball thrown greater than half screen only serves to feed the other person meter

-Red parries make blockstrings nonexistant

"Parries are fun, hype, but as a game mechanic they tear away too much of the game."

Is any of this legitimate, or salt?

Some of those oversimplify the situation, but I agree that parries many many traditional Street Fighter character types irrelevant and emphasises one in particular massively.
 
"Why are you focusing on 3rd strike? are the mentioned points not in SF3 & SF3 2nd impact? I am not that familiar with SF3, so just wondering."


No one's mentioning SF3 New Generation and 2nd Impact because those games are universally considered as bad and broken.
 

Crisium

Member
3S has amazing characters, and I like the pace of the game, but parry and other balance issues really bring it down. That's why I want more 3S characters in SFV.
 
Viscant is totally correct for high level play. But this ignores how the game exists in the world. How many of you can reliably parry after all these years? 20% of the time at least? I can't and I have played hundreds of hours of Third Strike.

But a multi-million dollar fighting game can't just be about high level play. It needs a smooth ride on the way to 'pretty good player.'

Parries make a fun game and the artwork is sublime, characters are pretty good.

The game lacks a lot but post SF4 Ultra, I am forgiving it more and more.
 

Alchemy

Member
Why would it be? There's not even a Dhalsim like character in the game because distance fighting is mostly irrelevant.

Which is mostly why I like parries. They break certain playstyles, but I really enjoyed playing Third Strike because of it.
 

JediLink

Member
Did you seriously just call Viscant "his friend" like he isn't one of the better fighting game players to ever play?

Dude is an Evo champ ffs. I love how this thread is basically going exactly how I expected. At best people are just saying "lol he's wrong" yet they can't seem to actually explain how he's wrong anywhere nearly as he's explains his own points.
I think you missed something. That was definitely OP's friend, not Viscant.
 
It might make Third Strike a questionable Street Fighter game for breaking the mechanics so much, but the game and metagame are built around the parry.

Also it is sort of universally acknowledged that Chun-li is overpowered, and Ken and Yun behind her.

Also forward LP + LK is just a grab. I don't see how that counters 90% of anyone's options any more than it doesn't in SFIV.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Parries are great if you place a lot of value in moment-to-moment reads, but terrible if you value space control and long-term consequences.
 
Love the parry system. My friends and I have been playing 3rd Strike for literally years now at my work. (We have a long split in our shift) Just going by my own experience and not some random "pro" player guy. It feels very much like a thinking man's Street Fighter. Especially once you understand each others habits and whatnot. We also play Ultra 4 and KOF. Going back to 3rd Strike and the parry mechanic always feels great.
 

entremet

Member
He's right. Parrying is a shitty mechanic.

The game is still fun to play and art direction and music are sublime.
 

ChouGohan

Banned
Game has my favorite SF graphics, Favorite SF music, and favorite SF cast. But the game is extremely unbalanced, and parries arent good game mechanics
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Your friend is wrong. Third Strike is the best Street Fighter ever made.

Co-signed. Your friend is fucking stupid, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Have him play me online sometime, I will even agree to wreck his shit without parries, if he so desires.
 
Co-signed. Your friend is fucking stupid, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Have him play me online sometime, I will even agree to wreck his shit without parries, if he so desires.

lol yeah, that will definitely help him like the game more... smh

and yes I like 3rd Strike
 
some ligit complaints, but they mostly come down to your preference in fighting games.

the point about yun and chun li is true, and that can be a significant problem, but its 2 characters out of a pretty large roster, its not a detriment to the entire game.

parries caused a way more reaction focused and aggressive game, some people like that, some people will not. it all comes down to how you like to play the games.
i love fast, aggressive, rush down play, so for me parry's are the greatest thing ever, but if you are the type of player who isn't always holding forward you will find some issues with the mechanic.

also holy shit, to everyone who is blindly screaming "third strike is the greatest fighting game ever made" its nice that you like the game but that is not an argument, it just makes you sound stupid.
 
I don't think option selecting forward + throw is a thing. The best you could do is tap forward (somehow timing it perfectly on the first frame your character stands up), let the stick return to neutral within 5 frames, then press LP + LK exactly 10 frames later, when the parry window ends.

Assuming you can even do that with perfect timing every time you get knocked down, as soon as I realize what you're doing, I can walk backwards or backdash and punish your throw whiff.

Keep in mind that after your parry window ends (5 frames if you hold forward/down longer than 5 frames, 10 frames otherwise), you cannot attempt to parry again until 20 frames after your initial parry input.
 
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