Roddslayer
Member
Just wait till you see the lawsuits from the games of this year...
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'Killzone: Shadow Fall' Class Action Lawsuit Can Proceed, Judge Rules
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
Doctor_Thomas
Member
It's not though. Every single frame that is displayed on your screen was still 1920x1080 pixels. It's disingenuous to say it's upscaled. It's not taking a sub-1080p image and increasing the resolution. It works with a sort of vertical interlacing, approximating alternative lines based on the last frame and current display. It's may take less power and it make not give an optimal result but to claim it's upscaling is wholly incorrect as it's still a 1080p image.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I hope it doesn't. Misrepresenting stuff to us gamers is...
Fuck it. I simply don't care.
Carry on.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Far Cry 4 is full 1080p on PS4 but the hybrid reconstruction anti aliasing applied creates nasty edge artefacts that stand out worse than KZSF MP's.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I agree. The more transparent companies have to be the better.
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
What happened with the lawsuit with Sega & Aliens. Has there been any resolve?
Machinehead
Member
Then that means this person is going to lose the lawsuit, doesn't it? I don't see a problem with filing it if he truly believes he's been lied to.
I know people may feel this guy is using valuable judge time and public money to assess the case but again: if someone thinks he has a valid complaint, it is a matter of the law deciding if it is or not, and acting accordingly. It may help other people build their cases when they feel they are being fooled by false advertising. I know I'd file a lawsuit against other publishers if I lived in the US and if this lawsuit was ruled for the plaintiff.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
SP certainly looked better than MP to me, but I always assumed that was because it was running closer to 30FPS, so Guerilla had to have implemented better visual effects. MP looks great for a launch title, 1080p or not.
How about no. Every single frame the MP is displaying a full 1080p of information. There is zero upscaling. The only downside is slight blur when the calculation breaks down. This is similar to motion compensation most videos employ. Are you going to bitch about that too?
I oppose the existence of such a trial.
The Order better watch out what it has on the back cover as the resolution.
I think the best way is to stop talking about resolution if you are not running native 1080p, but funny thing is KZ MP does run in native 1080p. It cannot be put in the same league as scaling a 900p image to 1080p, as the previous information is rendered in native pixel mapping.
Also, does the plaintiff want every buffer to be 1080p? Because some buffers to construct the final image will not be full-hd. Does he want at least one buffer to be full HD? Maybe the games UI overlay will be 1080p, would that count? Would a constantly present still image at the right corner in native resolution void the 1080p claim, as it would steal the screen space? Would he allow other pixel re-projection techniques? Does he want a freshly rendered pixel for the whole screen?
The Order better watch out what it has on the back cover as the resolution.
I think the best way is to stop talking about resolution if you are not running native 1080p, but funny thing is KZ MP does run in native 1080p. It cannot be put in the same league as scaling a 900p image to 1080p, as the previous information is rendered in native pixel mapping.
Also, does the plaintiff want every buffer to be 1080p? Because some buffers to construct the final image will not be full-hd. Does he want at least one buffer to be full HD? Maybe the games UI overlay will be 1080p, would that count? Would a constantly present still image at the right corner in native resolution void the 1080p claim, as it would steal the screen space? Would he allow other pixel re-projection techniques? Does he want a freshly rendered pixel for the whole screen?
WonkyPanda
Member
At this stage, probably not. Sony's in-house counsel is more than likely handling this issue. It's not like this adds extra fees on Sony's end. If this advances and discovery begins, Sony would most likely seek aid from an outside firm to assist in the proceedings. This can obviously lead to extra costs. However, it's pennies compared to what they'd fork over in losing the class action.
test_account
XP-39C²
I hope he wins, only to get a refund for his copy back. Would be funny, spending hundres of dollars, maybe thousands, to get $60 back. Seems ridiculous if he should get more money since he didnt had any financial loses buying and playing the game, as the judge also pointed out. If the court want to punish Sony for this, make them pay a fee to a charity organisation instead. Its crazy if one private individual should get rich on this.
Best looking MP graphics on consoles.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Ubisoft shitting bricks right now.
The only time Class Action lawsuits should be used, are if you are trying to make a point. Like trying to hold a company accountable, so they don't do it again (so they don't think they have precedent). Because sadly, the whole "vote with your wallet" doesn't work, when the majority of people buying this are casual consumers that aren't as wired in to these issues, and tend to forget about these things a year or two when the next game comes out.
So sometimes it takes a minority to make some noise. And if one thing has been shown to work, it's that even big companies don't like bad PR. Because in their mind, they think it can do damage in the long run by ruining their reputation and it spreading to the casual consumer.
But this is not the kind of incident that needs it. Like come on. This actually makes it worse for consumers that will have more legitimate incidents. Like, I think how MS is handling MCC is a disgrace. That is a clear case of a game being shipped broken. And it's still having major issues that impacts a lot of consumers. And MS isn't really doing shit. They haven't even publicly said they will accept refunds for this. You can try to get a refund on your own, but even then, CS are told to give you the run around, and try to deny a refund. There are some people on here that were denied a refund. And while it's a luck of the draw, that's not acceptable. MS is handling this really poorly. And since the media isn't doing anything to help (by not covering this, or holding them accountable with their reviews or giving them bad press over it)....that's when a class action lawsuit makes sense to me. But just throwing around at any little thing you can to make some money, fuck that. Terrible (and in the end even if you do win, don't lawyers make the most out of this anyways?)
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying a class action lawsuit even works or does what I suggested. I was just saying, that's the only thing I can really see it being beneficial for. But maybe it's not. *shrugs*
So sometimes it takes a minority to make some noise. And if one thing has been shown to work, it's that even big companies don't like bad PR. Because in their mind, they think it can do damage in the long run by ruining their reputation and it spreading to the casual consumer.
But this is not the kind of incident that needs it. Like come on. This actually makes it worse for consumers that will have more legitimate incidents. Like, I think how MS is handling MCC is a disgrace. That is a clear case of a game being shipped broken. And it's still having major issues that impacts a lot of consumers. And MS isn't really doing shit. They haven't even publicly said they will accept refunds for this. You can try to get a refund on your own, but even then, CS are told to give you the run around, and try to deny a refund. There are some people on here that were denied a refund. And while it's a luck of the draw, that's not acceptable. MS is handling this really poorly. And since the media isn't doing anything to help (by not covering this, or holding them accountable with their reviews or giving them bad press over it)....that's when a class action lawsuit makes sense to me. But just throwing around at any little thing you can to make some money, fuck that. Terrible (and in the end even if you do win, don't lawyers make the most out of this anyways?)
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying a class action lawsuit even works or does what I suggested. I was just saying, that's the only thing I can really see it being beneficial for. But maybe it's not. *shrugs*
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Actually the Judge denied the majority of Sony's motions to dismiss the claim in significant part. Only one point was agreed upon, so all the plantiff has to do is drop or amend that point to move the case forward.
Either way this case is almost certainly going to court outside of unusual circumstances.
Those are just the compatible video modes. Potentially misleading to some, but different from claiming that a game runs at native 1080p.
Man, when are people going to bring up lawsuits against actual broken on release games like our latest all star team of Halo MCC for MP, AC Unity for the plethora of bugs or even The Evil Within for its poor on disc version running at sub 1080p, sub 25fps with massive screen tearing?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The entire lynch pin of this case is that Guerilla games claimed native 1080p and plaintiff is arguing the multiplayer is not rendered at native 1080p, the specific argument is posted upon earlier in the thread.
WonkyPanda
Member
What are you talking about? Most cases settle or terminate, via MTD/SJ, AFTER discovery.
Attorneys' fees are paid out of the pool for a class action. It's a contingency fee. He could get kicked extra cash as the class representative, but you're framing this the wrong way.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Yeah but seriously... if this were to be a settlement costing Sony/GG millions of dollars and then their next project couldn't get the funding it deserved, I'll weep. Weep hard.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Yes but the Judge in question isn't impeding this case to a significant degree as in the balls still in the plaintiffs or Sony's as well if they wish to settle.
WonkyPanda
Member
I don't understand what this sentence means. Can you clarify?
Reading GAF discuss legal matters, I think I'm beginning to understand how developers feel when they read us discuss technical points of game development.
Cringing pretty hard over here.
Spoiler alert: this shit will never go to trial. Everyone, calm down.
Exhibit A.
Cringing pretty hard over here.
Spoiler alert: this shit will never go to trial. Everyone, calm down.
Exhibit A.
There are many old DLP televisions that also claimed 1080p but were actually doubled 960x1080 using wobulation which doubled the horizontal resolution through a sort of interlacing. People weren't suing over that.
WonkyPanda
Member
Although I agree with most of what you've said (it's why I try to stay out of threads about legal matters), I'd be cautious of saying this can never go to trial. Odder things have happened before. But, yes, the chances of this ever seeing a jury are very, very slim.
You're right, I shouldn't have said never. Someone who files a CA for something like this probably isn't the most logical person to accept an out of court settlement offer even if counsel urges them to do so.
That being said, I'm going to take your advice and dip out of the thread before it gets crazy. I'm going to remember this thread the next time I think about discussing technical aspects of video games and keep my mouth shut.
The multiplayer renders in 1080p native. Fucking god damn, there is no upscaling happening. Upscaling happens when you take a finalized render, and blow it up to be higher resolution using no actual game data other then the image you're scaling. There are a fuckton of parts in the graphics pipeline in EVERY GAME FUCKING EVER EVEN IF YOUR PC HAS IT SET TO 1080P that aren't fucking 1080p assets or render targets.
Everything in real time rendering is approximations. You're guessing what the color of the pixel should be based on game information. Killzone absolutely is doing this every frame in multiplayer to generate a native 1080p image. However it is using old image data combined with some new object data to guess what the colors of half the image pixels are, in a different way then the other half of the screen.
Does it alter image quality? Yes. Is the image native 1080p and not upscaled in any god damn way? FUCK YES.
This is stupid and I'm mad.
Everything in real time rendering is approximations. You're guessing what the color of the pixel should be based on game information. Killzone absolutely is doing this every frame in multiplayer to generate a native 1080p image. However it is using old image data combined with some new object data to guess what the colors of half the image pixels are, in a different way then the other half of the screen.
Does it alter image quality? Yes. Is the image native 1080p and not upscaled in any god damn way? FUCK YES.
This is stupid and I'm mad.
I think 1080p has become just a targeted buzzword that it creates confusion due to its various flavors.
Shadow Fall = 960 by 1080 resolution "with a "high-quality temporal upscale."
Halo 2 Anniversary = 1328x1080 resolution "with horizontal scaling."
If 1080p is going to be a standard, should i be clarified to assume that native = 1920?
Shadow Fall = 960 by 1080 resolution "with a "high-quality temporal upscale."
Halo 2 Anniversary = 1328x1080 resolution "with horizontal scaling."
If 1080p is going to be a standard, should i be clarified to assume that native = 1920?
TheRealTalker
Banned
Goodness Sony can't seem to catch a break
either they are getting slammed for something stupid or some random occurrence screws them up
:/
either they are getting slammed for something stupid or some random occurrence screws them up
:/
test_account
XP-39C²
What do you mean that i frame the wrong way? That he wont potentially spend much money on the lawyers if he wins? Doesnt that depend on how much money the class action lawsuit grants? And couldnt it be possible that the judge rule in a way to say that the guy is only going to get a refund for the game?
thelastword
Banned
The point is that a native TRUEHD image is 1920*1080p. Such an image does not use a base 960*1080p image and attempt to reconstruct it across alternate frames. Even then, be aware, that it attempts to reconstruct the image as best as it can from prior information, the results can never match a true 1080 image just mimic it.
In essence, this is just a fancy way of saying, it's not the real thing, just like an upcaled image is not the real thing. I do agree that's it not traditional upcscaling, but that's besides the fact, the base image is still 960*1080, that's why the image is as blurry as it is.
An image is 1080p despite what type of anti-aliasing is used on it, a 1080p image that uses the worse form of fxaa is still a 1080p image.
In any case, the anti-aliasing used in farcry is superior to many forms of AA which came before it, especially some forms of AA which were much more expensive. The slight artefacting present which you barely see, is exceedingly less detrimental as opposed to presenting a supremely blurry image or an image filled with heavy shimmering and shader aliasing.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Killzone multiplayer is fucking god damn native 1080p. It isn't fucking "temporal upscaling", it is TEMPORAL REPROJECTION. Every pixel color in a 1080p framebuffer is being calculated in Killzone MP. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
You can bitch about image quality results when using temporal reprojection, but there are fucking no missing pixels in the 1080p framebuffer when the game is done rendering.
R_thanatos
Member
well don't get them ideas , but the way this one goes will open or close the floodgates , that's for sure !!!
WonkyPanda
Member
I thought I was pretty clear: class actions are predicated on contingency fees. Attorneys' fees are pulled from the pot.
Per your second question, the answer is: No. This is a class action, not a suit in an individual capacity.
Why so sore?
My bad for doing a quick search and lifting "temporal upscaling" from Polygon.
Is the argument of scaling vs projecting the concept of creation vs prediction? Because that could be a semantic debate.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Judge should be disbarred, no, the whole damn U.S. justice system be thrown out. What a joke. My tax dollars are paying for these peoples salaries? I'm certain there are literally thousands of greater injustices that go unattended.
There should be an online petition to agree to not participate in this...its frivolous and I don't want my 3 dollars.
The game kinda sucked, but graphics were a strong point in SP and MP.
And THE GAME WORKED, MP WORKED!!! that's almost a miracle today, I'd gladly participate in a suit against EA for BF4 which didn't work right for a year
The game kinda sucked, but graphics were a strong point in SP and MP.
And THE GAME WORKED, MP WORKED!!! that's almost a miracle today, I'd gladly participate in a suit against EA for BF4 which didn't work right for a year
ridiculous - you're just as bad as the douchebag with the lawsuit
Ah yes, wobulation. Had forgotten about that one.
I agree. They delivered one of the best looking, most polished, and most heavily supported next-gen games yet. They should praised for the work they did on SF. There are so many other games which deserve infinitely more shit than this.
WonkyPanda
Member
Honestly, what are you even implying? That Judge Chen should be disbarred because Sony's MTD was insufficient to meet the burden of the movant? Are you suggesting the converse be true? Do you have issues with the underlying purpose of favoring discovery? Could you even imagine what you're implying? A system where the burden isn't weighed against the movant, where discovery isn't favored? That's asinine.