• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2014 |OT2| We need to be more like Disney World

Status
Not open for further replies.

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
eBay Huckster, let me begin by clarifying my position. I believe that IRC s. 36B only authorizes tax credits for those who have enrolled in an insurance policy on an exchange established by a state, and not on an exchange established by HHS. I believe this because that’s what the text says. This interpretation is not “tortured,” despite that resort must be made to several definitions to understand the section. Instead, my interpretation is the only straightforward interpretation of the section. Here are the relevant provisions of section 36B:

IRC s. 36B(a) said:
In the case of an applicable taxpayer, there shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this subtitle for any taxable year an amount equal to the premium assistance credit amount of the taxpayer for the taxable year.

This is the key operative provision of section 36B. It tells us who gets a credit (“an applicable taxpayer”) and the value of the credit that person is entitled to (“equal to the premium assistance credit amount”). Those phrases I’ve bolded are defined terms.

Who gets a credit?

IRC s. 36B(c)(1)(A) said:
The term “applicable taxpayer” [generally] means, with respect to any taxable year, a taxpayer whose household income for the taxable year equals or exceeds 100 percent but does not exceed 400 percent of an amount equal to the poverty line for a family of the size involved.

Simple enough.

What is the value of the credit?

IRC s. 36B(b)(1) said:
The term “premium assistance credit amount” means, with respect to any taxable year, the sum of the premium assistance amounts determined under paragraph (2) with respect to all coverage months of the taxpayer occurring during the taxable year.

Again, the bolded are defined terms, and these terms are what cause trouble. First, a taxpayer cannot have any “coverage months” if he or she has not enrolled in a qualified health plan through an “Exchange established by [a] State under section 1311” (see below). If a month is not a “coverage month,” then the “premium assistance amount” for that month is not included in calculating the “premium assistance credit amount” for the taxable year (see above, s. 36B(b)(1)).

IRC s. 36B(c)(2)(A) said:
The term “coverage month” [generally] means, with respect to an applicable taxpayer, any month if—
(i) as of the first day of such month the taxpayer, the taxpayer’s spouse, or any dependent of the taxpayer is covered by a qualified health plan described in subsection (b)(2)(A) [see below] that was enrolled in through an Exchange established by the State under section 1311 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, and

(ii) the premium for coverage under such plan for such month is paid by the taxpayer (or through advance payment of the credit under subsection (a) under section 1412 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act).​

Note that the reference to “the State” in 36B(c)(2)(A)(i) refers to the state within which a qualified health plan is offered in the individual market (because of its reference to 36B(b)(2)(A)).

For a moment, let’s pretend that a “coverage month” is any month during which an applicable taxpayer is enrolled in a qualified health plan, regardless of who established the Exchange from which the taxpayer purchased the plan. That doesn’t solve the problem, because the method of calculating the “premium assistance amount” also requires that the plan be enrolled in through an “Exchange established by the State”—otherwise, its formula will spit out an amount equal to $0.

IRC s. 36B(b)(2) said:
The premium assistance amount determined under this subsection with respect to any coverage month is the amount equal to the lesser of—
(A) the monthly premiums for such month for 1 or more qualified health plans offered in the individual market within a State which cover the taxpayer, the taxpayer’s spouse, or any dependent (as defined in section 152) of the taxpayer and which were enrolled in through an Exchange established by the State under 1311 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, or

(B) the excess (if any) of—
(i) the adjusted monthly premium for such month for the applicable second lowest cost silver plan with respect to the taxpayer, over

(ii) an amount equal to 1/12 of the product of the applicable percentage and the taxpayer’s household income for the taxable year.​

(Regarding subsection A, note the subtle change in language between the two phrases relating to States. The first is “within a State,” and the second is “by the State.” It’s obvious why the latter phrase exchanges “the” for “a,” since it’s referring back to the State identified in the first phrase. Likewise, it’s obvious why the former phrase uses “within” instead of “by”—the ACA does not call on states to act as health insurers. But why does the latter replace “within” with “by,” if Congress meant to say “within” in each? Courts presume that Congress, in using two different terms, intends two different meanings.)

So, Congress, in expressing how much of a credit an applicable taxpayer is entitled to, stated that that figure is the sum of the “premium assistance amounts” (which require that a qualified health plan be enrolled in through an “Exchange established by [a] State”) for all “coverage months” (which also require that a qualified health plan be enrolled in through an “Exchange established by [a] State”). This was no slip of the pen.

Note that at this point, I haven’t said one word about threats, incentives, or the Spending Clause. I don’t need to. The text is enough, and the text is clear. (If you think that one or more other provisions create an ambiguity, point them out (or refer to a source that does so), and I'll address them.)

Responses

Now I’ll respond to the other points you raise.

The entirety of the elected GOP voted in favor of H.R. 4 in the 112th (itself a slight modification of H.R. 705), which was scored by the CBO on the premise that subsidies were universal in scope several months into a political landscape in which states had already declined to set up their own - an indication that at worst, they believed that subsidies *might not* be restricted to state exchanges in moving to capture more revenue from their repayment.

This gets several things wrong. First, H.R. 4 (enacted as Pub. L. 112-9) says nothing (and implies nothing) about whether credits are available to applicable taxpayers who are covered by qualified health plans enrolled in through an Exchange established by HHS. Instead, it simply amends one subsection of 36B to increase the amount that a taxpayer eligible for credits would have to pay back if the advance credits exceeded the credit to which he or she was entitled. But, I don’t think your point in raising the law was to say otherwise. Second, I’m not sure that a single state made a decision regarding establishing a health care exchange by mid-2011, when this statute was enacted. Not even Texas made a decision until July 2012. Third, the only Cost Estimate by the CBO I’ve found related to H.R. 4 is this one, which says nothing about the change to section 36B, which was added to the bill later.

In particular, you can feel free to explain, in as plain a form of language as possible, how Chevron deference does not apply to this case, given that:

  • everyone except for the plaintiffs (and the relevant organizations filing amici curiae) - a group which includes a substantial number of governments and their officials otherwise overtly opposed to the existence of the law - seems to be in agreement that "subsidies go to all states" was at least a plausible interpretation of the sections in question, given that...
  • ...rather unlike NFIB v. Sebelius, there appears to have been no credible threat made by members of Congress or the Cabinet to deny subsidies to states that did not opt to create their own exchanges, as Sargent's post details.
It seems to me that taken together, both of these points imply that Congressional intent was not unambiguous (in which case the SCOTUS should grant "Chevron"), unless you are seriously arguing that Congress made a clear-cut threat that, simultaneously, no one seems to be able to find with any measure of clarity.

A court grants deference to an agency’s interpretation of a law only when the law is ambiguous and the agency’s interpretation is a reasonable one. In this case, the law is not ambiguous (see above), so no deference is due.

You can point to people misreading and misunderstanding the text of the law all day, but that doesn’t change that the text simply leaves no room for debate. We don’t need to rely on how others have interpreted the text—we have the text and can read it for ourselves. “Established by [a] State under section 1311” cannot mean “established by the Secretary of HHS under section 1321 (or 1311, for that matter).”

EDIT: Response to Fourth Circuit in King

Because you complained that I haven't addressed the Fourth Circuit's holding in King, let me do so now.

The Fourth Circuit held that the law is ambiguous as to whether tax credits are available on exchanges established by the federal government, and the IRS rule is a reasonable interpretation of the statute. In reaching the former conclusion, the court relied on a number of provisions in the ACA outside of section IRC section 36B. First, it interpreted the requirement that an "Exchange . . . be a governmental agency or nonprofit entity that is established by a State" as definitional--i.e., transforming any exchange, regardless by whom established, into an exchange established by a state. This doesn't make sense, for a couple of reasons: (1) the subsection is titled "Requirements," not "Definitions;" (2) "Exchange" is defined elsewhere in the statute; and (3) this reading would permit a state to create a for-profit entity to serve as the Exchange, since the for-profit entity would be transfigured into a nonprofit by virtue of this purported definition.

Second, the court interpreted the (actual) definition of "Exchange"--"an American Health Benefit Exchange established under section 18031 of this title [i.e., 1311 of the Act]"--to transform an exchange established by the Secretary of HHS into an exchange established by a state. Third, the court recites the government's argument that the requirement that HHS establish "such exchange" under section 1321 means that HHS establishes a state-established exchange. The D.C. Circuit panel in Halbig addressed both of these arguments cogently, as I pointed out here:

Halbig said:
The phrase "such Exchange" has twofold significance. First, the word "such" . . . signifies that the Exchange the Secretary must establish is the "required Exchange" that the state failed to establish. In other words, "such" conveys what a federal Exchange is: the equivalent of the Exchange a state would have established had it elected to do so. . . . If we import [the statutory definition of "Exchange"] into the text of section 1321, the provision directs the Secretary to "establish . . . such American Health Benefit Exchange established under [section 1311 of the ACA] within the State." This suggests . . . that the Secretary[, in establishing an Exchange,] . . . acts under section 1311, even though her authority appears in section 1321. Thus, section 1321 creates equivalence between state and federal Exchanges in two respects: in terms of what they are and the statutory authority under which they are established.

The problem confronting the IRS Rule is that subsidies also turn on a third attribute of Exchanges: who established them. . . . Of the three elements of [section 36B of the IRC]--(1) an Exchange (2) established by the State (3) under section 1311--federal Exchanges satisfy only two: they are Exchanges established under 1311.

Two additional points about 1321. The title of the subsection containing the "such Exchange" language is "Failure to establish Exchange or implement requirements." So it would seem that an "Exchange established by the State" and an exchange established by HHS are mutually exclusive--HHS only steps in when the state fails to establish an exchange. In addition, note what it is the Secretary of HHS is instructed to do: "establish and operate such Exchange within the State." There's that phrase again: "within the State." So, Congress knew how to refer to a state-specific Exchange as an Exchange "within the State," yet, despite its use of the phrase earlier in 36B to refer to the availability of qualified health plans on the individual market, Congress declined to do so in defining the value of tax credits available to an applicable taxpayer.

The court also refers to the government's arguments concerning reporting requirements and "qualified individuals," both of which were addressed in Halbig (and which I quote because I'm tired of writing--in case that wasn't clear already from the sloppiness of this Edit):

Halbig said:
The government first argues that we must uphold the IRS Rule to avoid rendering language in 26 U.S.C. s. 36B(f) superfluous. . . . As relevant here, section 36B(f) also requires "each Exchange"--i.e., both state and federal Exchanges--to report certain information to the government. . . . The government contends that these reporting requirements assume that credits are available on federal Exchanges, and it argues that the requirements would be superfluous, even nonsensical, as applied to federal Exchanges if we were to reject that assumption.

Not so. . . . [H]olding that credits are unavailable on federal Exchanges would not convert the specific reporting requirements concerning credits into an "'empty gesture.'" . . . Those requirements would still allow the reconciling of credits on state Exchanges; as applied to federal Exchanges, they would simply be over-inclusive. Over-inclusiveness, however, remains a problem even if we were to agree that section 36B allows credits on federal Exchanges. Section 36B(f)(3), after all, mandates reporting "with respect to any health plan provided through the Exchange," . . . even though only plans purchased by taxpayers with incomes between 100 and 400 percent of the federal poverty line may be subsidized. . . . A weakness common to both views of the availability of credits hardly serves as a basis for choosing between them.

FN5. Appellants also suggest that the information collected from federal Exchanges could be useful for the "Study on Affordable Coverage" mandated by the ACA in that same section.

. . .

If this provision is given its plain meaning, then the 36 states with federal Exchanges . . . have no qualified individuals. That outcome is absurd, the government argues, because in its view section 1312 restricts access to Exchanges to qualified individuals alone. . . . The absence of qualified individuals would mean that federal Exchanges have no customers and therefore no purpose. . . .

The government, however, tilts at windmills. It assumes that when section 1312(a) states that "[a] qualified individual may enroll in any qualified health plan available to such individual and for which such individual is eligible," . . . it means that only a qualified individual may enroll in such a plan. The obvious flaw in this interpretation is that the word "only" does not appear in the provision. We have repeated emphasized that it is "not our role" to "engage in a statutory rewrite" by "insert[ing] the word 'only' here and there." . . . On this reading, giving the phrase "established by the State" [sic] its plain meaning creates no difficulty, let alone absurdity. Federal Exchanges might not have qualified individuals, but they would still have customers--namely, individuals who are not "qualified individuals."

Several other provisions in section 1312 imply that non only "qualified individuals" may participate in an Exchange.
 
eBay Huckster, let me begin by clarifying my position. I believe that IRC s. 36B only authorizes tax credits for those who have enrolled in an insurance policy on an exchange established by a state, and not on an exchange established by HHS. I believe this because that’s what the text says. This interpretation is not “tortured,” despite that resort must be made to several definitions to understand the section. Instead, my interpretation is the only straightforward interpretation of the section. Here are the relevant provisions of section 36B:

If this is true, why does the section in 18041 titled “Failure to establish Exchange or implement requirements" not mention this at all despite it being a section totally about the State choosing to set up an exchange or not.

Why wouldn't a section about failing to establish an exchange not mention lack of tax credits?

The fact that you ignore, at the very least, that an HHS run exchange and state run exchange are exactly the same thing in every application in the ACA is mind-boggling.

Second, I’m not sure that a single state made a decision regarding establishing a health care exchange by mid-2011, when this statute was enacted.

This is wrong. From a CBO analyst on the 2011 issue: “We never had the discussion about how many states would set up their own exchange, but if we had had that discussion, I can’t imagine we would have said every state’s going to set up their own exchange,”

On not allowing tax credits on HHS run exchanges.

“If we had had the conversation at the time, I feel strongly that we would’ve come up with some assumption about the share of states that would’ve established their own exchanges and it wouldn’t have been 100 percent.”

“Definitely the notion that all 50 states and D.C. would set up their own exchanges, seems far-fetched to me now,” White says. “I don’t even really remember talking through any debates over what share of states would set up their own exchanges and what states would use the federal fallback. My recollection of the operating environment was that it just didn’t matter whether the states or federal government set up the exchanges, the exchange subsidies and projected enrollment would be the same.”

Furthermore, the vote on 1099 came after mullitple states did in fact back out of setting up their own exchange. Yes, some states decided late but not all. The vote came after some states pulled out.

I'd also like to note that Cannon, one of King's architects, admitted that the republicans in congress voted on 1099 believing subsidies counted for all exchanges. His argument is irrelevant to that fact. He's conceded the point entirely and willingly. His argument is that that fact does not matter, that only the text matters. Literally, his argument is that a technicality can change the law...a misplaced comma can change the law, and fucking typo can change how one interprets any specific law. If the Court accepts his argument, it literally jeopardizes every law ever written. It's so nonsensical.

It's going to be awesome when the appellate court is affirmed 9-0 and we're going to pretend this topic never ever ever happened in a few years.
 
eBay Huckster, let me begin by clarifying my position. I believe that IRC s. 36B only authorizes tax credits for those who have enrolled in an insurance policy on an exchange established by a state, and not on an exchange established by HHS. I believe this because that’s what the text says. This interpretation is not “tortured,” despite that resort must be made to several definitions to understand the section.

This position makes substantially more sense than what I was assuming to be the case (though I still disagree regarding the level of ambiguity at play here), so thank you for the clarification.

I am absolutely not going to fisk the rest of that, because this isn't even my lane to begin with, though I will provide clarification on one point: the scoring in question is referring to their scoring of H.R. 705, which at a cursory glance is textually identical to Pub. L. 112-9 as enacted.

(Also, I'll try to stop the drive-by posts from here on out.)
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
It's going to be awesome when the appellate court is affirmed 9-0 and we're going to pretend this topic never ever ever happened in a few years.

As a courtesy, I remind you that I'm not discussing this topic with you anymore. However, I will say that, whatever the Court rules, I won't pretend I didn't spend an inordinate amount of time discussing the case. If the Court affirms the Fourth Circuit, I'll take my lumps and move on. I may explain where I believe the Court goes awry in that case, but I won't act as if I didn't advocate for the losing side.

This position makes substantially more sense than what I was assuming to be the case (though I still disagree regarding the level of ambiguity at play here), so thank you for the clarification.

I am absolutely not going to fisk the rest of that, because this isn't even my lane to begin with, though I will provide clarification on one point: the scoring in question is referring to their scoring of H.R. 705, which at a cursory glance is textually identical to Pub. L. 112-9 as enacted.

(Also, I'll try to stop the drive-by posts from here on out.)

Thanks for clearing up the CBO issue. I won't look into it right now, since I'm tired. But I do want to say that, regardless of whether this is your "lane" or not, I think it's good that you (and others) ask questions. It gives me an opportunity to clarify my position, which, in turn, gives others a chance to more accurately critique my position.

Also, I added a lengthy (though incomplete) response to the Fourth Circuit's holding in King as an edit to my previous post.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
"But pollster Conway said she also worried about Bush’s own vulnerabilities in a race against Clinton. “I think Jeb Bush has done practically everything right, by the way, but I worry that the Hillary people are pushing a Jeb candidacy,” she said. “They want the argument: ‘Do you want the third Bush or the first woman?’ We do have this love affair with change.”

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/...-by-hillary-clinton-114697.html#ixzz3QDfVl2Vk
 

Diablos

Member
Its saying goldwater is to cowboy for the presidency and was gonna lead us in to nuclear war.

Its the same as the 3am phone call add
Yeah but the 3am phone call ad is way more watered down.

How are Democrats going to compete with the Koch brothers in 2016 btw? That's pretty damning news...
 

ivysaur12

Banned
2020 Electoral College Projections

Based on EDS’s projections, California (+1), Colorado (+1), Florida (+1), North Carolina (+1), and Texas (+3) are in line to gain at least one seat. In some cases, EDS found that Arizona, Oregon, and/or Virginia may also pick up an additional seat.

On the other side of the ledger, Alabama (-1), Illinois (-1), Michigan (-1), Minnesota (-1), Ohio (-1), Pennsylvania (-1), Rhode Island (-1), and West Virginia (-1) are positioned to lose a seat, and in at least one projection New York also lost one.

Rhode Island's been overrepresented for years. Jim Langevin's been serving for years (since 2001), but he's only 50. David Cicilline is 53.

Could Jack Reed retire? He'd only be 70, but it'd be his 5th Senate election and he'd be 78 by 2028. He's very popular and has a great committee seat. Langevin takes his seat, and Cicilline runs in the new At-Large district. Or they fight it out.

EDIT: And on the other seats --

Alabama has 6 Rs, 1D
Illinois has 8 Rs, 10 Ds
Michigan has 9 Rs, 5 Ds
Minnesota has 3 Rs, 5 Ds
Ohio has 12 Rs, 4 Ds
Pennsylvania has 13 Rs, 5 Ds
Rhode Island has 2 Ds
West Virginia has 3 Rs

Alabama will continue to pack Democrats into Birmingham (its 7th now, with a D+20 PVI), so they will lose a Republican. Illinois could go either way, but given the makeup of the legislature, they'll probably consolidate some of the Egypt areas for more packed Republicans downstate. Ohio and Pennsylvania also pack their Democrats into large D districts (and I don't see the Ohio legislature changing anytime soon. Pennsylvania maybe but eh), so they'll probably lose a Republican either way. Rhode Island will lose a Democrat. West Virginia will lose a Republican.

It could go either way with Michigan and Minnesota, but I would guess that Minnesota would become slightly more at parity (with more competitive districts) and would lose a Democrat while Michigan would probably do the same, but still lose a Republican.
 
"But pollster Conway said she also worried about Bush’s own vulnerabilities in a race against Clinton. “I think Jeb Bush has done practically everything right, by the way, but I worry that the Hillary people are pushing a Jeb candidacy,” she said. “They want the argument: ‘Do you want the third Bush or the first woman?’ We do have this love affair with change.”

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/...-by-hillary-clinton-114697.html#ixzz3QDfVl2Vk

That sure is a typical Politico article.

Hillary will be fine. I love how they note her high unfavorables while not noting her high favorable ratings in the exact same polls. Likewise Obama's approval ratings are not "lagging" and barring another foreign policy issue for the WH to fuck up, his numbers should remain steady thanks to an improving economy.

Demographics simply make it hard for a GOPer to beat a popular democrat. Could Romney/Jeb Bush/etc beat O'Malley or Joe Biden? Sure. But Hillary will energize enough of the party to take advantage of the demographic shifts. Especially if Obama is popular enough in 2016 to help campaign.
 
As a courtesy, I remind you that I'm not discussing this topic with you anymore. However, I will say that, whatever the Court rules, I won't pretend I didn't spend an inordinate amount of time discussing the case. If the Court affirms the Fourth Circuit, I'll take my lumps and move on. I may explain where I believe the Court goes awry in that case, but I won't act as if I didn't advocate for the losing side.

That's a cop out to avoid the valid points I've brought up.

I don't think you'd ever pretend you didn't advocate for the losing side. Just saying we'll all acknowledge how ridiculous this debate has been.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
8687-figure-3.png
 

When fighting the "good fight" becomes a loosing battle.

Even my FOX news loving republican uncle is coming around to Obamacare. It only took him being laid off 3 years prior to the age he wants to retire, but hey he came around. Now I wonder if he's going to be upset that the GOP didn't extend unemployment. Probably not ...
 

Teggy

Member
Did we miss this White House trolling of Fox


Fox News‘ Shepard Smith received a little jab from the White House to go along with his pre-SOTU luncheon. Smith and other Fox News reporters were supposed to receive a place card saying “Fox News,” instead they got an insulting omission. It may have been an honest mistake, but Shep refused to let it go without a brief report on the subject.

Shepard Smith explained it well.

“I sat next to Brian Williams, and we all have these place cards and his said, ‘Brian Williams, NBC News.’ And across from me was David Muir, the new guy on ABC. It said, ‘David Muir, ABC News.’ And then, over next to the president, was Scott Pelley, and it said, ‘Scott Pelley, ABC News.”

Sounds fine so far.

“And I looked at mine, and it doesn’t say anything about news. It just says, ‘Fox.’ And I looked at Bret Baier’s and it said, ‘Bret Baier, Fox.’ But all the rest of them got ‘news.’ I mean, I don’t care — lunch was great.”
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
That's a cop out to avoid the valid points I've brought up.

Nonsense. Here is a list of every response I've made to you on this topic, from the beginning of our discussion in July of last year:

PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

PoliGAF 2014 |OT2| We need to be more like Disney World

I have not shied away from addressing any counterpoint raised against my position. I only stopped responding to you because you made clear that you are unwilling to respect our differences of opinion. If anyone else wishes to discuss this topic, I'm happy to do so. But not with you.
 
Nonsense. Here is a list of every response I've made to you on this topic, from the beginning of our discussion in July of last year:

PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

PoliGAF 2014 |OT2| We need to be more like Disney World

I have not shied away from addressing any counterpoint raised against my position. I only stopped responding to you because you made clear that you are unwilling to respect our differences of opinion. If anyone else wishes to discuss this topic, I'm happy to do so. But not with you.


1. Referencing recent points I've brought up.

2. I said that in the situation if you truly believed the writers didn't intend to give the tax credits, but instead you've decided to argue that is irrelevant and the text of the law, even if by accident, is all that matters. I actually can respect that argument.

I respect opinions but will not respect blatant disregard for the facts. I
 
Health insurance companies and hospitals mounted an aggressive defense of Obamacare's insurance subsidies Wednesday, warning the Supreme Court that eliminating the payments would be "grossly inequitable" to millions of Americans.

Both industries have a lot on the line as the court prepares to hear oral arguments in a lawsuit that aims to cut off the Affordable Care Act's premium subsidies in most of the country.

In an amicus brief filed Wednesday, health insurers said a ruling against the subsidies would have widespread and severe ripple effects, potentially throwing states' entire insurance markets into chaos.

Stopping the flow of subsidies "would create severely dysfunctional insurance markets" in 34 states, America's Health Insurance Plans, the industry's leading trade organization, said in its amicus brief. "It would leave consumers in those States with a more unstable market and far higher costs than if the ACA had not been enacted."

The case before the Supreme Court, King v. Burwell, argues that Obamacare's subsidies—which help the vast majority of enrollees cover part of their premiums—should only be available in states that established their own insurance exchanges. People who live in the states that did not set up their own marketplaces should not be receiving financial assistance, the challengers argue.

AHIP, though, said the state and federal exchanges work the same as a practical issue. The subsidies and the law's individual mandate are part of an interconnected series of policies designed to stabilize insurance markets, AHIP said—irrespective of who runs the exchange in any particular market.

"There is no practical reason to distinguish between state- and federally-operated exchanges in this regard," the brief says. It makes no difference to the market reforms whether the exchange is state- or federally operated. Likewise from the perspective of consumers, State- and federally-operated exchanges perform the same basic functions."

According to independent estimates, 8 to 10 million people would likely lose their coverage if the Court invalidates subsidies in the federally run exchanges. And most of the payments insurers were planning to receive this year—about $32 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Office—would disappear as well.

But the consequences would spill well beyond consumers who personally lost their subsidies, AHIP argued. The industry organization warned of an insurance "death spiral" if the Court rules against Obamacare: Only the only sickest people would be willing to buy insurance even without financial assistance or a mandate to do so, AHIP argued, which would cause premiums to increase, which would push out more people until only the sickest of the sick remained and insurance became totally unaffordable, if it would be available at all.

"These significant adverse consequences are fundamentally inconsistent with the goals of the ACA, which was intended to achieve nationwide reform and make stable, functioning insurance markets available to all Americans," AHIP wrote.

Hospitals made a similar argument in their amicus brief Wednesday. Neal Katyal, a former acting solicitor general who is representing several large hospital organizations, pointed to the experience of states that tried some of Obamacare's market reforms—such as guaranteeing coverage to sick people—without also providing subsidies or enacting an individual mandate.

Those state-level experiments were all failures. And, Katyal argued, Congress knew that—meaning there's no way it would have intentionally set states up for the same result now.

"It's really kind of crazy to think that Congress would have enacted a scheme like that" by making subsidies available only in certain states while the rest of the law applied nationwide, Katyal told reporters Wednesday.

He noted that Obamacare included cuts in Medicare and Medicaid payments to hospitals, including reductions in the payments they receive to offset the cost of treating uninsured patients. Congress reduced those payments in part because more patients would have insurance and be able to pay their bills. But, Katyal noted, if the Supreme Court invalidates Obamacare's subsidies, those customers would vanish—yet the other payment cuts would remain.

The result would be "a widespread and massive disruption … to the entire health care system nationwide," he said.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-care/can-the-health-care-industry-save-obamacare-20150129

Not that there's as much of a legal argument, I do think it's interesting that the Insurance Lobby and Hospital Lobby basically filed a brief with the SCOTUS yelling "PLEASE DON'T FUCK THE WHOLE SYSTEM UP, YOU WILL WRECK THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY AND YOU KNOW DAMN WELL THIS WASN'T THE INTENTION."

I personally think the legal argument is so bad and would open a pandora's box no one on the high court wants but just in case, I think the economic impact and begging from big business to not do it would be the final nail in the coffin.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
In republicans' neverending quest to destroy education in our country, here's what is happening in Indiana:

http://www.wthr.com/story/27975652/...o-indiana-state-education-board-ritz-protests

Basically, Glenda Ritz (D) won her election for State Superintendent of Public Education, garnering even more votes than Mike Pence, the governor. So what does the GOP do? They have a vote to strip her of her power and remove her as state board leader. Publicly elected official getting some of her power stripped.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
In republicans' neverending quest to destroy education in our country, here's what is happening in Indiana:

http://www.wthr.com/story/27975652/...o-indiana-state-education-board-ritz-protests

Basically, Glenda Ritz (D) won her election for State Superintendent of Public Education, garnering even more votes than Mike Pence, the governor. So what does the GOP do? They have a vote to strip her of her power and remove her as state board leader. Publicly elected official getting some of her power stripped.

Probably not the best idea for Pence to create a martyr.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
In republicans' neverending quest to destroy education in our country, here's what is happening in Indiana:

http://www.wthr.com/story/27975652/...o-indiana-state-education-board-ritz-protests

Basically, Glenda Ritz (D) won her election for State Superintendent of Public Education, garnering even more votes than Mike Pence, the governor. So what does the GOP do? They have a vote to strip her of her power and remove her as state board leader. Publicly elected official getting some of her power stripped.

Hmmm... I'll wait to hear what JustIN has to say before passing judgment. Can't trust the lamestream media.
 
It would have in 2012 as well, good thing that didn't happen.

Obama won Iowa by 6 points in 2012 after much hand-wringing. He won Wisconsin by 7 points. I know it wouldn't be a uniform swing but Democrats would have to crater pretty hard to lose both of them.

Although it'll be really funny in 2016 when I post my map on Facebook again and my apolitical friends from Iowa insist it's a red state on the sole basis that it's farm country.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom