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Jenny · Nov 14, 2015

So if I am to understand some of the replies on recent pages correctly the only possible reason to have a bust slider is for the purpose of pervy fan service and as a flat chested adult woman I can't help but shake my head and laugh.

Maybe I'm naive but to me the entire point of any game having female character creation is so that women like myself have the ability to make a character that can best represent me. Just because a byproduct of that is that men can also make and use female characters and make a "waifu" or any other reason doesn't invalidate that the entire point of female character creation is to allow both genders the choice.

The decision to remove the slider is not some major game breaking change however a huge aspect of RPG's for me is immersion and while this game may not have the best character creation system out there its still a game in which player customization is a huge factor and not being able accurately represent myself through my character is immersion breaking and I shouldn't be punished for wanting to use the system as intended because of the hypothetical chance that some other user would use it for some other reason. If you want to argue that more options for either gender should have been included into the game originally fine, but the conversion is about the removal of a actual feature that was included.

Klossen · Nov 14, 2015

Censorship defended through moral justification that you're somehow safeguarding the sensitive senses of the person exposed to the media. I guess the 90's moral wave really is back, but this time the censorship is justified through keeping people from becoming sexist instead of keeping people from becoming violent like it was 20 years ago.

zakujanai · Nov 14, 2015

From the title I was hoping that'd fixed the faces to not look like blow-up dolls.

It's there a weight slider? Can you make your character obese? If not, anyone claiming the boob slider is about making a character that truly represents them can fuck right off.

Uraizen · Nov 14, 2015

Why would you remove something that was already fully functional and contributes to the character creation?

Dice// · Nov 14, 2015

zakujanai said:
From the title I was hoping that'd fixed the faces to not look like blow-up dolls.

It's there a weight slider? Can you make your character obese? If not, anyone claiming the boon slider is about making a character that truly represent sthen can fuck right off.

Very well and very concisely said, actually

NoKisum · Nov 14, 2015

But can I get some dreadlocks though?

ZombiePlatypus · Nov 14, 2015

RPGCrazied said:
And found it! Don't know who this dude is, but he obviously was there in person and overheard it from the NoA or 8-4?

Wow. Good job Nintendo. "We're not gonna censor our game. We're just gonna censor it."

I don't even understand the whole strictly a "family console" argument either. I thought Nintendo was trying (as uphill of a climb as it might be) to position the WiiU as a console "with something for everybody." I believe Reggie himself said those words in the latest Direct.

If they were going to really have a console with only squeaky clean games, then what's up with games like Bayonetta, RE: Revelations, and Devil's Third?

zakujanai said:
From the title I was hoping that'd fixed the faces to not look like blow-up dolls.

It's there a weight slider? Can you make your character obese? If not, anyone claiming the boob slider is about making a character that truly represents them can fuck right off.

Why does it have to be an all or nothing situation here?

Dice// · Nov 14, 2015

NoKisum said:
But can I get some dreadlocks though?

Character customization in this regard would be great. I remember a gaf topic about it....

RM8 · Nov 14, 2015

zakujanai said:
From the title I was hoping that'd fixed the faces to not look like blow-up dolls.

It's there a weight slider? Can you make your character obese? If not, anyone claiming the boob slider is about making a character that truly represents them can fuck right off.

I don't think I've seen obese characters, or very skinny ones. They all look super same-y and super ugly. But of course the boob slider is the element that breaks this character creation system, lol. Legit question, can you have any male form that isn't the generic athletic build? Because again, that'd mean I can't accurately make myself (too skinny). Immersion ruined, skinny shaming, etc.

rpmurphy · Nov 14, 2015

Obesity is a disease.

RM8 · Nov 14, 2015

rpmurphy said:
Obesity is a disease.

Overweight people, then? Skinny guys like myself?

ZombiePlatypus · Nov 14, 2015

RM8 said:
Overweight people, then? Skinny guys like myself?

Is everyone in the game strictly one body type? If that's the case, yeah that's pretty lame, but that's no reason to cut back even further on how a player can represent themselves within the game.

Hours Left · Nov 14, 2015

RM8 said:
I don't think I've seen obese characters, or very skinny ones. They all look super same-y and super ugly. But of course the boob slider is the element that breaks this character creation system, lol. Legit question, can you have any male form that isn't the generic athletic build? Because again, that'd mean I can't accurately make myself (too skinny). Immersion ruined, skinny shaming, etc.

No, you can't. Everyone is the exact same body type.

RM8 · Nov 14, 2015

ZombiePlatypus said:
Is everyone in the game strictly one body type? If that's the case, yeah that's pretty lame, but that's no reason to cut back even further on how a player can represent themselves within the game.

I understand that the boob slider is where people draw the line (for some reason). My only point is that, no, your XCX character is most likely not going to look like you. I'm googling around and I can't find many different body types? My body definitely doesn't look like this:

Before clicking the pic, I found it via Google Images but it was posted on the SPOILERS THREAD.

https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/zlCfzTTJ8gU0Nne_yb

It's just a dude in underwear sitting next to some alien dude, though. I'm not sure if it's actual spoilers.

Hours Left said:
No, you can't. Everyone is the exact same body type.

There you go, I can't make myself in XCX.

Jenny · Nov 14, 2015

zakujanai said:
From the title I was hoping that'd fixed the faces to not look like blow-up dolls.

It's there a weight slider? Can you make your character obese? If not, anyone claiming the boob slider is about making a character that truly represents them can fuck right off.

I can't really agree with your second sentence. Sure I agree that the character customization is lacking diversity in some areas especially in the choice of body types but if its already limited how does further reducing that diversity help anything?

zeelman · Nov 14, 2015

Eila said:
It's already a T rated game, so no. It's just another ??? decision form NoA, like censoring a M rated game.

Taking PG-13 content and making it very slightly less PG-13 seems kinda silly to me.

I don't remember anyone complaining about the content in Bayonetta 2 when NOA released it. I don't understand what made them change their minds since then.

RM8 · Nov 14, 2015

zeelman said:
Taking PG-13 content and making it very slightly less PG-13 seems kinda silly to me.

I don't remember anyone complaining about the content in Bayonetta 2 when NOA released it. I don't understand what made them change their minds since then.

Well, XCX is a Nintendo-owned game. Bayo 2 and Devil's Third are published by Nintendo, but they're not series that belong to Nintendo. I think that's the difference, but who knows.

Plus Bayonetta revolves around sexuality and Devil's Third revolves around violence. XCX doesn't revolve around breasts

Windom Earle · Nov 14, 2015

Jenny said:
I can't really agree with your second sentence. Sure I agree that the character customization is lacking diversity in some areas especially in the choice of body types but if its already limited how does further reducing that diversity help anything?

Apparently it helps to not piss people off and also appeases our progressive western culture.

Hours Left · Nov 14, 2015

Jenny said:
I can't really agree with your second sentence. Sure I agree that the character customization is lacking diversity in some areas especially in the choice of body types but if its already limited how does further reducing that diversity help anything?

It's lacking diversity in a lot of areas. This is why many people, myself included, see the bust line feature as something that was primarily included to sexualize the character, not to promote different body types.

For everyone that feels restricted now, and that they can't make a representative character, that's unfortunate, but the intent of this feature was most likely never meant to be representative in the first place. When you take a default "perfect" body that cannot be changed, and all you let people adjust for the female characters is their breast size, I don't think it's hard to see what the thought was behind that decision.

mugwhump · Nov 14, 2015

Hours Left said:
If you think the relative location of a part of anatomy on a person's body, or it's core biological function, is the key factor in equivalence when it comes to sexualization, I don't know what to say, because I disagree.

Dong sliders and breast sliders are both sexual, but dong sliders are a whole lot MORE sexual. Honestly a much more equivalent customization for you to pursue would be a butt slider for men.

As for breasts being the most noticeable aspect of a woman's body, and therefore the easiest one to modify, I'd say that's a representation of your personal bias. (Which everyone has, obviously.)

I did not say it was the most noticeable aspect, I said it was one of them. Please don't put words in my mouth then call me biased.

The effect it has on body type representation is what's irrelevant, because it was never the primary function of the feature to begin with. This isn't some blow to a more varied inclusion of different female physiques, it was a choice Nintendo made to minimize the overt sexualization of the female characters models.
...
The bust slider was included to sexualize the female characters. If Monolith Soft really wanted to make the characters have body definining features to further differentiate the player made characters from each other, they would have. This was simply something they threw in to up the fan service, and hence, a bulge slider would be the most equivalent in this case.

You've been going on and on about this but you seem to have either missed or ignored my point about a bust slider being easier to implement than other physique options. It requires only that chest armor for females changes, as opposed to, say, a fat slider, which would be harder to implement. That fact, combined with the fact that bust size is one of the more noticeable aspects of female bodies, actually makes the bust slider a pretty sensible pick for a customization option. I won't insist that sexualization had absolutely nothing to do with the choice, because I don't actually know. But you need to stop acting as if sexualization was the only possible factor.

And its removal absolutely is a blow to a more varied inclusion of different female physiques.

I've already said, twice now, that I think removing it was overreacting, so please do not hoist your predispositions on me, like I'm trying to be the fun police.

I'm sorry if I came off that way. For what it's worth I would fully support dong sliders, butt sliders, testicle sliders, whatever. More options are ALWAYS better, as far as I'm concerned.

RM8 · Nov 14, 2015

Windom Earle said:
Apparently it helps to not piss people off and also appeases our progressive western culture.

I don't see why this is even a political issue. This is Nintendo being Nintendo, welcome to decades ago. Maybe because GAF wasn't a thing back then, but were old Nintendo localization changes attributed to politics too? Nintendo (especially NOA) aims to be super family friendly, and they sometimes go overboard. I'd say Mortal Kombat 1 on SNES was a terrible decision, while this is a pretty... unimportant one. But that's just me.

Eila · Nov 14, 2015

zeelman said:
Taking PG-13 content and making it very slightly less PG-13 seems kinda silly to me.

I don't remember anyone complaining about the content in Bayonetta 2 when NOA released it. I don't understand what made them change their minds since then.

People complained about Bayonetta 2 plenty, actually. I imagine that played part in the recent censorings of even M rated games. But there is no winning, because now people are outraged because they censored the content. It's just what we do.
I guess it's easier for Nintendo to ignore the people complaining about any censored content by calling them gross perverts over ignoring people who dislike sexualization in their games.

Windom Earle · Nov 14, 2015

RM8 said:
I don't see why this is even a political issue. This is Nintendo being Nintendo, welcome to decades ago. Maybe because GAF wasn't a thing back then, but were old Nintendo localization changes attributed to politics too? Nintendo (especially NOA) aims to be super family friendly, and they sometimes go overboard. I'd say Mortal Kombat 1 on SNES was a terrible decision, while this is a pretty... unimportant one. But that's just me.

I just repeated what some people are saying in this thread, I don't know Nintendo's reasoning.

flatearthpandas · Nov 14, 2015

Good to know NoA is wasting time with useless shit like this instead of just localizing games quickly and actually releasing them in a timely manner. That's why we ~~hate~~ love them.

mugwhump · Nov 14, 2015

RM8 said:
I don't see why this is even a political issue. This is Nintendo being Nintendo, welcome to decades ago. Maybe because GAF wasn't a thing back then, but were old Nintendo localization changes attributed to politics too? Nintendo (especially NOA) aims to be super family friendly, and they sometimes go overboard. I'd say Mortal Kombat 1 on SNES was a terrible decision, while this is a pretty... unimportant one. But that's just me.

Yes, I quite doubt the change was because they're progressives concerned with equality of sexualization. It's more likely a puritanical attempt to protect their family-friendly image (and considering the many inappropriate outfits that are apparently intact, they kind of failed).

Hours Left · Nov 14, 2015

mugwhump said:
Dong sliders and breast sliders are both sexual, but dong sliders are a whole lot MORE sexual. Honestly a much more equivalent customization for you to pursue would be a butt slider for men.

I did not say it was the most noticeable aspect, I said it was one of them. Please don't put words in my mouth then call me biased.

You've been going on and on about this but you seem to have either missed or ignored my point about a bust slider being easier to implement than other physique options. It requires only that chest armor for females changes, as opposed to, say, a fat slider, which would be harder to implement. That fact, combined with the fact that bust size is one of the more noticeable aspects of female bodies, actually makes the bust slider a pretty sensible pick for a customization option. I won't insist that sexualization had absolutely nothing to do with the choice, because I don't actually know. But you need to stop acting as if sexualization was the only possible factor.

And its removal absolutely is a blow to a more varied inclusion of different female physiques.

I'm sorry if I came off that way. For what it's worth I would fully support dong sliders, butt sliders, testicle sliders, whatever. More options are ALWAYS better, as far as I'm concerned.

I've already gone over this in response to other posts so I'm not gonna start all over again. Suffice it to say, we disagree on why this feature was initially implemented, so there's no sense in hashing it out. I would just suggest to maybe give some more thought as to why, of all features they could of chosen, they picked a woman's bust line to allow players to adjust. If you truly think it was primarily due to ease of implementation, then that's your prerogative. But in my opinion, when you look at the current state of video games, I don't think it's hard to see why I'd believe otherwise. And one last thing since I don't feel I made it clear before, I don't think a bulge slider is the one and only way to increase male sexualization in gaming, it's just an obvious example that I think most directly correlates to this particular situation. (One that was successfully implemented in Saints Row for example.)

And I'm glad you're in favor of a more balanced display of sexualization for both genders, I think that's really the only way forward. If we all just gave some thought to how to make gaming a more open and welcoming space for all people, the world would be a better place, and that includes when we delve into the realm of sexualization.

SCReuter · Nov 14, 2015

zakujanai said:
From the title I was hoping that'd fixed the faces to not look like blow-up dolls.

It's there a weight slider? Can you make your character obese? If not, anyone claiming the boob slider is about making a character that truly represents them can fuck right off.

There's a height slider and breast slider. That's basically it.

Here's a YouTube video that explores the game's avatar maker. Skip to 14:15 to see a "celebration of diverse body types."

Jenny · Nov 14, 2015

Hours Left said:
It's lacking diversity in a lot of areas. This is why many people, myself included, see the bust line feature as something that was primarily included to sexualize the character, not to promote different body types.

For everyone that feels restricted now, and that they can't make a representative character, that's unfortunate, but the intent of this feature was most likely never meant to be representative in the first place. When you take a default "perfect" body that cannot be changed, and all you let people adjust for the female characters is their breast size, I don't think it's hard to see what the thought was behind that decision.

I guess we just have completely different viewpoints of it, I personally find nothing inherently sexual about breasts or a bust size slider and just can't believe that the reason for it existing stems down to "sexual the character". While women are in no way shape or form defined by their chest size, as a woman I do like to make my characters resemble my physical appearance for immersion factors.

The fact that many people with varying body types already were excluded from immersion due to that never being an option during the games development, while absolutely a valid issue is different to me because those features were never implemented but the bust slider was and then subsequently removed for the western release. I understand there is a lot of fan-service present in many games and theres an attempt to clean up that image and make it more inviting but I fail to understand how "One cup fits all" is an appropriate message to state and it just seems completely counter productive to me especially with a feature that I personally can't find sexual in any way.

WarioFan63 · Nov 14, 2015

Thoraxes said:
What if someone wants to make their avatar look more like themselves? Males will be able to do so with no issues.

Well it doesn't sound like there's a weight slider, so no I wouldnt be able to make my avatar look like me.

Mik317 · Nov 14, 2015

Jenny said:
I can't really agree with your second sentence. Sure I agree that the character customization is lacking diversity in some areas especially in the choice of body types but if its already limited how does further reducing that diversity help anything?

thank you.

It basically reads like "well I'm not being served so then no one should".

"bu-but I can't make a fat character so its fair" is a dumb argument considering they TOOK OUT the little bit of alteration we had. The base costumization not being super diverse and Dragon's Dogma like, does not make taking out the boob slider right. Even if the intended use was for these mythical basement dwelling dweebs to jerk off, the secondary benefit was for those not into that to be able to create better characters.

The fact that people are going on and on about "well I can't create non buff dudes so it is even" is pointless considering that is complaining about something that did not exist while others are complaining about something that did but was changed because reasons unknown.

Jobbs · Nov 14, 2015

Removing the bust slider is a bit silly. I like having as many options as possible when using character creator. Typically if there is a bust slider I make it [the bust] smaller than average -- Because, generally, I think a slightly more scrappy or athletic character is more interesting as a hero than a buxom one.

Ultimately I guess it's not a big deal.

Hours Left · Nov 14, 2015

Jenny said:
I guess we just have completely different viewpoints of it, I personally find nothing inherently sexual about breasts or a bust size slider and just can't believe that the reason for it existing stems down to "sexual the character". While women are in no way shape or form defined by their chest size, as a woman I do like to make my characters resemble my physical appearance for immersion factors.

The fact that many people with varying body types already were excluded from immersion due to that never being an option during the games development, while absolutely a valid issue is different to me because those features were never implemented but the bust slider was and then subsequently removed for the western release. I understand there is a lot of fan-service present in many games and theres an attempt to clean up that image and make it more inviting but I fail to understand how "One cup fits all" is an appropriate message to state and it just seems completely counter productive to me especially with a feature that I personally can't find sexual in any way.

If you look at some of my previous posts, I stated I wouldn't have removed the bust slider, even though I feel it represents a lack of equality in the character creation. Even if the reason is mainly for sexualization as I've surmised, I don't think that's inherently wrong, as long as the same treatment is being shown to the male characters as well.

I'm sorry you feel like you're being short changed. I'd love to believe that the primary thought behind the bust slider was to let players feel like they're able to most accurately represent themselves, or the persona of the character they wished to portray in the game, but given all the other evidence, and the state of gaming today, I can't reasonably do that.

Weltall Zero · Nov 14, 2015

Yarbskoo said:
You have an alternative? Another female-exclusive feature that affects the shape of the body with such prominence and variability?

You said that breast size was one of the most prominent distinguishing features between females. At no point did you say that this feature itself must be "female-exclusive". Nor does it make any sense to the conversation, really: the vast majority of character creators offer the option of facial hair for males without an equivalent option for females, and nobody accuses them of discrimination for not including a goddamn boob slider.

PtM · Nov 14, 2015

Jenny said:
I can't really agree with your second sentence. Sure I agree that the character customization is lacking diversity in some areas especially in the choice of body types but if its already limited how does further reducing that diversity help anything?

Simple: The bust slider being one of only two makes it so much more present, and makes its intent clear. The removal avoids a bad first impression.

And since the actual implementation is lacklustre, they probably didn't feel too bad about it either.

Jenny said:
While women are in no way shape or form defined by their chest size,

Fuz said:
Dice// said:

I'm not wearing a bra right now and it took me doing a FULL karate chop (impersonating Laura) to get my tit's to jiggle anywhere NEAR her point. Tit jiggle in game's is a caricature of reality, it's just silly looking.

Click to expand...

Same size?
Also, if so, wanna marry me?

Welcome to the patriarchy.

@Hours Left: http://www.would-of.com

SkeptiMism · Nov 14, 2015

Jenny said:
So if I am to understand some of the replies on recent pages correctly the only possible reason to have a bust slider is for the purpose of pervy fan service and as a flat chested adult woman I can't help but shake my head and laugh.

Maybe I'm naive but to me the entire point of any game having female character creation is so that women like myself have the ability to make a character that can best represent me. Just because a byproduct of that is that men can also make and use female characters and make a "waifu" or any other reason doesn't invalidate that the entire point of female character creation is to allow both genders the choice.

The decision to remove the slider is not some major game breaking change however a huge aspect of RPG's for me is immersion and while this game may not have the best character creation system out there its still a game in which player customization is a huge factor and not being able accurately represent myself through my character is immersion breaking and I shouldn't be punished for wanting to use the system as intended because of the hypothetical chance that some other user would use it for some other reason. If you want to argue that more options for either gender should have been included into the game originally fine, but the conversion is about the removal of a actual feature that was included.

I'm not really gonna touch the debate here otherwise, but I find it really hard to see how someone wouldn't actually agree that the boob slider is pandering.

Like, yeah if there were actually other options other than height and weight (edit: no wait that's wrong too as you can't change your weight?), then sure it probably wouldn't be pandering. But considering it's pretty much the only thing there is other than those height and weight, how can you think it's pandering? Like, do you really think they added a boob slider of all things, just for women to have more diversity and be able to feel more immersed?

I'm not saying removing it is a good thing - I dislike that they removed it (I don't really care that much though) - and I do agree with you that it does remove the little diversity there is. But it's just that - the diversity was more of a byproduct while the pandering was the goal.

Yarbskoo · Nov 14, 2015

Weltall Zero said:
You said that breast size was one of the most prominent distinguishing features between females. At no point did you say that this feature itself must be "female-exclusive". Nor does it make any sense to the conversation, really: the vast majority of character creators offer the option of facial hair for males without an equivalent option for females, and nobody accuses them of discrimination for not including a goddamn boob slider.

I thought we were talking about a male analogy to a boob slider. What were you talking about?

Jenny · Nov 14, 2015

SkeptiMism said:
I'm not really gonna touch the debate here otherwise, but I find it really hard to see how someone wouldn't actually agree that the boob slider is pandering.

Like, yeah if there were actually other options other than height and weight (edit: no wait that's wrong too as you can't change your weight?), then sure it probably wouldn't be pandering. But considering it's pretty much the only thing there is other than those height and weight, how can you think it's pandering? Like, do you really think they added a boob slider of all things, just for women to have more diversity and be able to feel more immersed?

I'm not saying removing it is a good thing - I dislike that they removed it (I don't really care that much though) - and I do agree with you that it does remove the little diversity there is. But it's just that - the diversity was more of a byproduct while the pandering was the goal.

Maybe if I explain it in a different way it might make more sense. When I think of breasts in the stand alone context I don't think of them as some sort of sexual organ but instead of a simple part of the female body that varies greatly between woman to woman no different then hip size, waist size etc... a bust slider when used in the context of well as bust slider... is no different then if there was a peck slider, muscle slider, weight slider etc... it's a simple tool used to allow further customization in a rpg.

Taking the context of what game it is, XCX is not a fanservice type game imo, sure there are optional outfits that are quite revealing but comparing it to games like Senran Kagura and the like is something I can't do. Don't get me wrong I'm sure some people out there would use the slider to jack it all the way up and then proceed to wear those revealing outfits and in that specific case sure you can argue that its outlandish and a tool for unnecessary fanservice but I'd argue that that's an extreme example and not reflective of the overall game or what the fanbase at large would do and refuse to believe the slider was added more for being able to see large breasts in those optional outfits rather then a customization tool for diversity in character creation.

I will give you this, the fact that a bust slider is one of the only handful of ways to customize a character is a very valid point and the question on why weight sliders, muscle sliders etc... weren't added too is definitely worthy of discussion, however I just can't inherently find anything pandering about a basic feature in rpg character customization. Outlandish jiggle physics, overemphasis on certain parts, those are things I consider more inline with pandering, basic customization features I just cannot.

My apologies if this was too long.

BGBW · Nov 14, 2015

pinkurocket said:
has 'fanservice' written all over it.

The bikini costumes (which are still in the game) are fanservice. An option in a character creator really isn't.

KDR_11k · Nov 14, 2015

No sex appeal slider? Saints Row showed how to do it right (on male characters it determines the size of the crotch bulge).

Palculator · Nov 14, 2015

PtM said:
Simple: The bust slider being one of only two makes it so much more present, and makes its intent clear. The removal avoids a bad first impression.

And since the actual implementation is lacklustre, they probably didn't feel too bad about it either.

Arguing that something that is possibly enjoyable by straight men inherently leaves a "bad impression" is unreasonable and doesn't address their complaint about removal of customisation options based on this weird "all or nothing" logic regarding body diversity. Nor does removing the breast slider avoid any of the "bad impressions" people like you would have from the revealing armour sets in this game.

Not that I think the breast slider was included to promote body diversity (lol) but its removal is still an annoying, overreactive reduction of features.

Ridley327 · Nov 14, 2015

flatearthpandas said:
Good to know NoA is wasting time with useless shit like this instead of just localizing games quickly and actually releasing them in a timely manner. That's why we ~~hate~~ love them.

Do you really think that removing the breast slider would have taken up more than a day's work at most? Monolith Soft making the adjustment to Lin's model wasn't exactly labor intensive, either.

gunstarhero · Nov 14, 2015

DXB-KNIGHT said:
Is that the Neogaf logo I'm seeing?

Now I can't un-see it.

theSlacker · Nov 14, 2015

Palculator said:
If they collaboratively worked on this as well then that's cool. I'd be glad they didn't just go ahead and changed whatever they wanted (even with somewhat minor changes like these.) The rest of the post isn't directed at you specifically, Ridley.

However, for me the issue with censorship has never really been the role of the author in it. I'm not trying to downplay its importance, but I rarely even consider authorial intent when evaluating a product so I don't see why I should be concerned about an opinion I didn't pay a lot of attention to being diluted. I guess "too many cooks spoil the broth" becomes an issue when too many people meddle with a product, but I don't think that critical mass is reached during localisation.

My actual problem with censorship is the condescending nature of a company making a decision about what content I -- or other people like me since I'm not a special unique snowflake -- can reasonably handle or what is appropriate for me. Part of this is probably down to the simple fact of me being German. So for the majority of my gaming life I've had to deal with absolutely ridiculous things like publishers/ratings boards/whoever assuming soldiers dying would be "too much" so they have to be changed to robots, people not getting shot by guns but magicked into submission, and my feeble mind being in constant danger of slipping into fascism if I was exposed to Nazi symbols so those better go. Going so far as to cutting to a black screen saying "Evil things are happening" when violence in Saints Row 2 was shown.

As you can see, these mostly revolve around violence. And luckily this stuff doesn't really get done any more today, which I'm very glad about. The bad thing that I'm seeing now is that sexuality -- which has actually been fine mostly; it's Europe -- is getting censored instead. So this somewhat believable thought that depictions of brutal murders might be upsetting to some has now been replaced with absolutely asinine changes like this removal of bust size customisation. Which is incredibly misguided given how sex-positive we mostly are. A lot of these concerns seem blown out of proportion when you live in a culture that has had legal prostitution since forever, internationally famous red light districts, a long history of nudism and an age of consent of 14.

I know this is a long post for how small these changes are and I don't mean to overemphasise them since I'm still excited for the game and have had it preordered for months. It's just something I wanted to get off my chest for a while and give some perspective as to why someone might be incredibly annoyed with censorship like this. Especially when it comes to sex and banalities like cup size.

Side note: I'm not the only German fed up with this and, for example, we have a sizable Steam group that covers censorship on Steam and sometimes even tries to get/help publishers to get an uncensored version of their game on Steam.

tl;dr: I don't need a company to sanitise my thoughts and decide what's appropriate for me. Even insignificant changes like these are part of a larger problem bugging me for more than a decade now.

This is a great post that seems to have been ignored. Just wanted to let you know it wasn't. Bolded part is the exact problem I have with this kind of thing. I don't really care about being able to pick breast size, it's the fact that the choice itself was removed when it was there before because of other people deciding what was offensive for me/my region.

Dice// · Nov 14, 2015

theSlacker said:
This is a great post that seems to have been ignored. Just wanted to let you know it wasn't. Bolded part is the exact problem I have with this kind of thing. I don't really care about being able to pick breast size, it's the fact that the choice itself was removed when it was there before because of other people deciding what was offensive for me/my region.

Okay... And?
What else was supposed to be there in its place to satisfy you??? I don't really get this line of reasoning; of course it's going to be removed, of course it was there at one point, that's the point of these edits.

Again, the customization for all but the FACE is very minimal. It's height.... and breasts (women only). So yeah, the fact only women had this 'additional breast slider' stuck out and not in a good way.

theSlacker · Nov 14, 2015

Dice// said:
Okay... And?
What else was supposed to be there in its place to satisfy you??? I don't really get this line of reasoning; of course it's going to be removed, of course it was there at one point, that's the point of these edits.

Again, the customization for all but the FACE is very minimal. It's height.... and breasts (women only). So yeah, the fact only women had this 'additional breast slider' stuck out and not in a good way.

Um, nothing? Because it isn't something that should have been removed? Your following sentences seem to imply that it was a given fact that it was going to be removed and should have been. I don't really understand that.

If you want to assign good or bad to it that's all on you and isn't relevant to anything I've said. It's like the people who try to justify a boob slider by saying that the male characters can have facial hair. It just doesn't matter. The only thing about it that I have a problem with is that someone decided for me that me or my region could not handle something that was in the game already and remains in the game in another region and removed it. Something that doesn't effect any other player of the game other then the ones that choose to use it. Even that point doesn't matter to me though.

Palculator · Nov 14, 2015

Dice// said:
Okay... And?
What else was supposed to be there in its place to satisfy you??? I don't really get this line of reasoning; of course it's going to be removed, of course it was there at one point, that's the point of these edits.

Again, the customization for all but the FACE is very minimal. It's height.... and breasts (women only). So yeah, the fact only women had this 'additional breast slider' stuck out and not in a good way.

You seem to have ignored everything me and them said, except for the part that you bolded and underlined which has its meaning changed when isolated like that.

Dice// · Nov 14, 2015

Palculator said:
You seem to have ignored everything me and them said, except for the part that you bolded and underlined which has its meaning changed when isolated like that.

You talk about not being treated like a kid and having your content "PG'd" to your tastes. But you're also not the only player. NoA made a decision, maybe one day they'll shed light on exactly WHY (whether it's game reach with a more "PG" title, or certain laws, or "making the SJWs happy" or whatever).

It's great that guys are happy with boob sliders, but this was a shitty isolation that focused SPECIFICALLY on women and SPECIFICALLY on women's breasts to appease to fans who like that thing; not height, not muscle size (daresay to appeal to female fans who gawk at men). The game hasn't even restricted you to the smallest breast size, they gave an "average" size (which is still nice and big IMO). Also, a lot of these post ignore what women might think, y'know, the gender actually in question here, because I guess men must have their big-tittied women unrestricted to them. But to hell with what women think. Unless the stereotype of single gamers is true and need a virtual girl to look at. ;P

sixteen-bit · Nov 14, 2015

Lmao
https://instagram.com/p/-D-EjryGLY/

theSlacker · Nov 14, 2015

Dice// said:
You talk about not being treated like a kid and having your content "PG'd" to your tastes. But you're also not the only player. NoA made a decision, maybe one day they'll shed light on exactly WHY (whether it's game reach with a more "PG" title, or certain laws, or "making the SJWs happy" or whatever).

It's great that guys are happy with boob sliders, but this was a shitty isolation that focused SPECIFICALLY on women and SPECIFICALLY on women's breasts to appease to fans who like that thing; not height, not muscle size (daresay to appeal to female fans who gawk at men). The game hasn't even restricted you to the smallest breast size, they gave an "average" size (which is still nice and big IMO). Also, a lot of these post ignore what women might think, y'know, the gender actually in question here, because I guess men must have their big-tittied women unrestricted to them. But to hell with what women think. Unless the stereotype of single gamers is true and need a virtual girl to look at. ;P

We seem to be discussing completely separate things, along with a fundamental difference on point of view.

There are a lot of points you are making that I just don't think are relevant to what I am saying as my base argument has nothing to do with equal representation of genders. The fundamental difference of point of view that we may be having here is that I do not think it is a localization's job to "fix" problematic issues in games when bringing them to another region and it just strikes me as condescending. What you are saying is a great point for the original development of a game, and there may be some good counter points to it, like the aforementioned facial hair argument, but that wasn't something I was ever talking about. I'm also not claiming that you shouldn't make these points, it's just that the only reason I engaged with you is because you offered a direct response to something I said.

You also seem to be implying that the only reason someone would argue against changes like this is because they are a male and/or they just want to see big tits. The fact that I would choose slightly smaller breast on my female avatar is irrelevant since even if what you are claiming is true it doesn't matter and shouldn't be any of anyone's business. On top of it not being relevant to my point.

Pellegri Testament · Nov 14, 2015

Dice// said:
You talk about not being treated like a kid and having your content "PG'd" to your tastes. But you're also not the only player. NoA made a decision, maybe one day they'll shed light on exactly WHY (whether it's game reach with a more "PG" title, or certain laws, or "making the SJWs happy" or whatever).

It's great that guys are happy with boob sliders, but this was a shitty isolation that focused SPECIFICALLY on women and SPECIFICALLY on women's breasts to appease to fans who like that thing; not height, not muscle size (daresay to appeal to female fans who gawk at men). The game hasn't even restricted you to the smallest breast size, they gave an "average" size (which is still nice and big IMO). Also, a lot of these post ignore what women might think, y'know, the gender actually in question here, because I guess men must have their big-tittied women unrestricted to them. But to hell with what women think. Unless the stereotype of single gamers is true and need a virtual girl to look at. ;P

I like how you seem to be speaking for all women and have ignored what other women have said in this very same thread about how they like to make their characters look. This topic isn't "just about the guys and their interests", nor was the slider "just" to make large breasted characters, considering the slider did more than just go up.

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