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[The Verge] Microsoft is bringing AI characters to Xbox

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
AI is coming whether you like it or not. And when looking at all the trash writing in games these days it may do just fine. In terms of breaking us out of all the woke nonsense, I wouldn't count on it. AI is what you train it on and allow. IF you feed it a bunch of garbage then it will output garbage. I completely expect western gaming companies to feed it rubbish and restrict it from all kinds of ideas based on whatever is the most cutting edge popular woke bullshit. Best gaming stories will continue to come from countries where they don't give a shit about all that nonsense, like Korea, Japan, and Eastern Europe.
Yup.

Gaming employees are fucked because the bar is set so low in most writing and voice overs no wonder companies are taking a shot at AI. Lets face it gamers. Gaming creative isn't exactly Academy Award winning content. Most content is junk, predictable and the same tropes are used for 40 years.

Months back someone posted that Resident Evil clip where AI did the woman's lines. It sounded great. There is no way the average person can tell it's a bot doing it.

Like any industry affected by robot work, hey all you got to do is prove to bosses you can do a better job than a plastic box churning out bits and bytes and youll keep your job. You know they old claim..... "Humans will always outdo a robot. Humans can learn and adjust and nothing can beat human ingenuity" Ok, prove it.
 

Darsxx82

Member
I am not going to make any assessment until I verify the benefits or counterparts of using AI for this purpose.

Based on examples already used in mods for Skyrim and GTA... things seem promising.

The most beneficiaries will be Studios with fewer resources that will be able to allocate more budget to other sections. I also see cuts in development time and deeper and larger worlds.

I find the lack of a certain "soul" as a counterpart a bit stupid when I see the vast majority of NPC, quests and conversations in games Of today tend to have less "soul" and humanity than that of a floor-cleaning robot.

Nor does it go against the possibility of a mix where the scripts and conversations of the main and basic story are written by a human, leaving the rest to AI.

Imagine in GTA where each NPC can be more than a puppet with the same depth as a vase or a garbage can in the environment.
 

Chukhopops

Member
I thought that ai gta mod was quite cool actually. If it’s something like that where additional ai content can be built around hand crafted systems and gameplay I can imagine more interesting and immersive things to do in the games themselves.
People are just running their basic « MS bad » script without understanding what this technology can do.

Company I work for is running a POC where we feed our product database and support tickets into a learning model and it’s really impressive what this stuff can produce, despite our product being really complex (insurance). This could make NPC interactions a lot more interesting than 1-2 lines of text in a loop.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Nor does it go against the possibility of a mix where the scripts and conversations of the main and basic story are written by a human, leaving the rest to AI.
True.

Thats the part where a lot people assume that if AI is involved, it means AI takes over 100% of everything and every employee loses their job.

That is so false.

The past 30-40 years a lot of paper pushers lost their job because PC programs did a lot of the processing. But that doesn't mean there's zero people left. You still got people needed to analyze the data, recognize errors, and all the coder guys behind the scenes who implement and maintain it all. It's not like once it's up and running it is Terminator being self running forever.

It's just a change in jobs. Will there eventually be a net loss in jobs? Maybe.

But I think the fear is one part everyone will lose their job, and one part the fun and glamour will diminish if AI bots do some of the groundwork.
 
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Fredrik

Member
Ai writing, whilst not amazing, is already better than the vast majority of secondary dialogue/NPC side quest natter in most games. It doesn't need to best a top tier writer, all it needs to do is be better than the F tier writers who seem to write the droll non main quest stuff. Im pretty sure Jeff from accounting could write better dialogue than most the final fantasy 16 side quests.

Even then, by the time this actually see's practical use in a game, the quality will be a good few generations better than it is now. Use cases could include; when you walk past those 2 NPC's that hangout near the black smith chatting to each other, they won't repeat the same lines over and over, but will be responding to world events, your actions, local events, their own lives, dynamically. When you talk with them, they'll always have something new to say. The worlds they populate will suddenly become much more rich and believable. There's SO much that can be done with these tools for gaming.
Yup.
It’ll take some time to learn that NPCs might actually talk a lot about nothing worthwhile without starting to repeat themselves when their dialogue tree is at the end. We’ll probably be standing there confused listening to a nobody character for minutes thinking something important will be said soon. Right now anyone who has more to say than ”good day” usually trigger a quest or give you some hints.
 
Hot take: I don't 100% knock them for this.

Here's the truth: these writer strikes are going to jeopardize the pipeline for games development one way or another, just like they are with films and TV shows. And if I'm being painfully honest, most of these writers aren't as talented as they think they are. A decent AI could do their job with much less of the fuss and unpredictability, and for these corpos who always want to save money on production, well, that's an obvious boon to them.

I have also said that game production costs in general need to be tamed; we can't have a AAA industry if the average cost for a AAA game is shooting up by $50 million - $100 million per generation. That, and not all methods to try expanding revenue and profits to account for those growing costs are necessarily valid or worth it for many companies. If you want to see AAA & AA games get made faster, and take a bit more risk in design, those are things AI would help with a lot. If you want to see indie games get more ambitious without requiring massive budgets, that's also something AI will help with.

However while I'm not 100% against AI in gaming (or other industries like film and television), it HAS to be ethically regulated. Either at the industry level, or the government level, and I'd always prefer the former over the latter. There have to be mandates for companies retaining a certain amount of actual people on staff in all areas. Better yet, these companies should be offering means to train employees to work with the AI tools over the long-term, not just necessarily training their (non-human) replacements. The number of actual people they should have staffed would scale with the size of the company, and its sub-units (development studios, in this case), but it has to be a good number and one where we aren't seeing a massive drop in employment numbers within the industry.

As well, I would say the larger companies should have a higher ratio of human employees to AI tools/replacements than smaller ones, since the larger ones can theoretically afford that overhead. I'm sure the governments around the world wouldn't mind offering subsidizations for companies that maintain at least a minimum quota for human employees (though ironically, assuming AI could ever have human emotions, you'd wonder if they would look at the humans as 'diversity hires' the way certain people (rightly or wrongly) look at other people today as the same), as well.

So, yeah. I'm actually not 100% against this, but I do also see how it could completely destabilize the workforce if there isn't some regulation in place (either at industry level, government level, or both) to prevent corporations from getting too greedy and cutting as much of their human labor as possible just to make their shareholders, investors and BoDs dance in joy.

True.

Thats the part where a lot people assume that if AI is involved, it means AI takes over 100% of everything and every employee loses their job.

That is so false.

The past 30-40 years a lot of paper pushers lost their job because PC programs did a lot of the processing. But that doesn't mean there's zero people left. You still got people needed to analyze the data, recognize errors, and all the coder guys behind the scenes who implement and maintain it all. It's not like once it's up and running it is Terminator being self running forever.

It's just a change in jobs. Will there eventually be a net loss in jobs? Maybe.

But I think the fear is one part everyone will lose their job, and one part the fun and glamour will diminish if AI bots do some of the groundwork.

TBF it will still be EXTREMELY easy to spot even the best AI-powered writing from that of the most talented human writers out there. The thing is, there aren't that many talented writers who would be producing work at a level that an AI simply cannot match (and won't match for years, decades or even a century). The pool of writers at that level is very small, in every industry, gaming included.

So for the typical stories I don't think most will recognize the difference between human and AI, and that's unfortunately where the bigger problem of the standard of quality being lowered over time, comes back to bite us in the proverbial ass. It would've staved off this type of indistinguishable replacement, much longer. But across multiple industries, the standards for good writing just declined massively, so we'll probably see AI catch up with and surpass a lot of these modern writers in the span of a few years if it's not happening already.

Which is a big factor motivating the writer strikes, BTW. Yes there are some who are very talented and (rightfully, as am I) worried about companies abusing AI to run them out of a job. But there are a lot of writers who simply suck, and are scared of "mere" AI easily replicating or surpassing them, making them fully expendable in the field and forced to change careers. When if anything, you'd think for those types of writers the motivation would be to get better at their craft, but nope 🤷‍♂️.
 
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Davevil

Member
giphy.gif
 
The people worried about AI replacing everyone's job and ruining everything are the same people that were saying this about Photoshop back in the 90s. Look it up.
I mean there was an entire industry of artists that would actually touch up/modify/restore/enhance/colorize/etc negatives and photos by hand that was wiped out by the advent of digital photo editing.
 

MarkMe2525

Member
Hot take: I don't 100% knock them for this.

Here's the truth: these writer strikes are going to jeopardize the pipeline for games development one way or another, just like they are with films and TV shows. And if I'm being painfully honest, most of these writers aren't as talented as they think they are. A decent AI could do their job with much less of the fuss and unpredictability, and for these corpos who always want to save money on production, well, that's an obvious boon to them.

I have also said that game production costs in general need to be tamed; we can't have a AAA industry if the average cost for a AAA game is shooting up by $50 million - $100 million per generation. That, and not all methods to try expanding revenue and profits to account for those growing costs are necessarily valid or worth it for many companies. If you want to see AAA & AA games get made faster, and take a bit more risk in design, those are things AI would help with a lot. If you want to see indie games get more ambitious without requiring massive budgets, that's also something AI will help with.

However while I'm not 100% against AI in gaming (or other industries like film and television), it HAS to be ethically regulated. Either at the industry level, or the government level, and I'd always prefer the former over the latter. There have to be mandates for companies retaining a certain amount of actual people on staff in all areas. Better yet, these companies should be offering means to train employees to work with the AI tools over the long-term, not just necessarily training their (non-human) replacements. The number of actual people they should have staffed would scale with the size of the company, and its sub-units (development studios, in this case), but it has to be a good number and one where we aren't seeing a massive drop in employment numbers within the industry.

As well, I would say the larger companies should have a higher ratio of human employees to AI tools/replacements than smaller ones, since the larger ones can theoretically afford that overhead. I'm sure the governments around the world wouldn't mind offering subsidizations for companies that maintain at least a minimum quota for human employees (though ironically, assuming AI could ever have human emotions, you'd wonder if they would look at the humans as 'diversity hires' the way certain people (rightly or wrongly) look at other people today as the same), as well.

So, yeah. I'm actually not 100% against this, but I do also see how it could completely destabilize the workforce if there isn't some regulation in place (either at industry level, government level, or both) to prevent corporations from getting too greedy and cutting as much of their human labor as possible just to make their shareholders, investors and BoDs dance in joy.
In the end (which may be awhile away), they will find balance. This seems like it will be a key issue in writers bargaining agreements, and their is a place for AI generated dialog.

I imagine AI generated dialog also becoming a boutique industry in itself. Teams training the AI on the specific lore of the stories universe. Teams pruning Rouge dialog generation that breaks immersion. I can't imagine it will be a "set it and forget it" situation, and will need to be handled with care. This provides job opportunities for people as well.

Of course, I'm just spit balling different ideas and it may turn out to be completely different than what I described.
 
This is why game writers and game actors need to properly unionize to fight back against AI like the WGA and SAG is, maybe those two guilds should expand to include video games.
 

MarkMe2525

Member
I mean there was an entire industry of artists that would actually touch up/modify/restore/enhance/colorize/etc negatives and photos by hand that was wiped out by the advent of digital photo editing.
Color photography completely eliminated a large section of this market as well. My grandmother's first job was realistically painting photos to colorize them. She still has a bunch that she did for herself and family. It's surprising how lifelike they can look with a talented "colorizer" ( I don't remember what they called themselves)
 
In the end (which may be awhile away), they will find balance. This seems like it will be a key issue in writers bargaining agreements, and their is a place for AI generated dialog.

I imagine AI generated dialog also becoming a boutique industry in itself. Teams training the AI on the specific lore of the stories universe. Teams pruning Rouge dialog generation that breaks immersion. I can't imagine it will be a "set it and forget it" situation, and will need to be handled with care. This provides job opportunities for people as well.

Of course, I'm just spit balling different ideas and it may turn out to be completely different than what I described.

What you describe would be an ideal outcome. The AI technology (and tools for people to apply them in the many instances where application isn't autonomous) still has to be written, curated, and managed by people who understand not just the tech but also the fields they are being deployed into. So I suppose there would be instances of people who are, say, masters at fantasy fiction and medieval history, who just find new careers at writing, curating, managing and operating AI systems to generate content with their base of understanding.

These sort of people may not even need to be master programmers themselves, as I'm sure other AI tools would be used to develop interfacing that is much more human-like for them to easily utilize. In the event they could end up in fact fully programming such an AI model so that it phases their own position out, hopefully a very generous royalties & residuals system would be legally in place for them by the company to where they make money on the usage of that model for the duration of their natural life, though probably binding them to some NDAs and the such.

This is why game writers and game actors need to properly unionize to fight back against AI like the WGA and SAG is, maybe those two guilds should expand to include video games.

The WGA already has. At least, with a select number of developer studios, most if not all of whom I believe agreed to their terms or met at a compromise.

I could go on about the over-proliferation of Hollywood writers in gaming these days and probably draw a correlation to drops in game writing quality, but that's a different topic.
 
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NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
Good. Faster dev times, lower budgets, better bug removal, more time for testing, more time available to ACTUALLY RELEASE CREATIVE GAMES. Instead of the endless stream of samey games we get now that are buggy and broken at release.

I will take AI writing over the purple haired san franciscans who write most games now

Your side buzzcut blue-haired female characters will just be modeled by an AI.
They just won’t have a human model, so you can’t cry they made the human model uglier in the game.

I don’t know how people can expect more creativity when the tools are programmed by the same kind of people who makes today’s games. The Bing image creator has been censored in a matter of a few weeks, and whatever end product these AIs can speed up will still be sanitized before release. Oh, passersby in open world games will have different lines everytime you walk around them, what a thrill. That will make your fetch quests that much more interesting, I’m sure.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Well...somebody was gonna do it. My interest....exists.

I would really like to see some voice activated features. Like actually talking to NPC's in game. I don't really expect them to pass the Turing test, but for a first foray into AI games I would support it just to do my part in ensuring that development continues and other players jump on this in a competitive way.
 

K' Dash

Member
Comedy Central Mm GIF by Workaholics

can’t say I’m really excited for the proliferation of AI created content…

it depends, if it removes valuable time so the devs can focus on central story lines and characters, I'm all for it... making NPCs feel alive would be great. We've seen a couple of examples of this already applied to GTA5 and Skyrim.
 

Ellery

Member
I won't be able to influence or control those unable to differentiate between soul and soulless, art and time occupiers, but I know where to put my money
 

skit_data

Member
I personally think this has been the ultimate end goal since a while back.
MS have been focused on picking up big IPs and lots of personell but I think only half of that equation will be sticking around once they've got the machinery going.
 

Sentenza

Member
Cool. Some luddites will be unhappy though.
ResetEra is losing its freaking mind ovwer it.
Which is unsuprising, since as usual morons don' do "nuance".

Like every tool it will have tons of potential good and bad uses.

If people expect devs to start replacing writing with AI-generated content in a Bioware or Larian RPG, they are fucking delusional. That's obviously NOT what people want, [most] devs included.
On the other hand, there are already plenty of genres where "procedurally-generated content" is a sizable portion of the experience, and in these cases this type of tech could have a significant impact in keeping things fresh.
Take as an expample a Mount & Blade or a No Man's Sky where the hundreds of randomly generated NPCs don't share the same fucking twelve lines.
 
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mdkirby

Member
Yup.
It’ll take some time to learn that NPCs might actually talk a lot about nothing worthwhile without starting to repeat themselves when their dialogue tree is at the end. We’ll probably be standing there confused listening to a nobody character for minutes thinking something important will be said soon. Right now anyone who has more to say than ”good day” usually trigger a quest or give you some hints.
Oh for sure there's definitely gonna be a period of player adaptation. Even some games that have 'chatty' NPC's it can be confusing to determine which to bother to pay attention to and which to ignore. Final Fantasy was one of those, tho even those you did pay attention to you would quickly regret :messenger_tears_of_joy:...There'll need to be clever mechanics to indicate WHO you should bother talking with, and WHAT line of questioning you should pursue, particularly if these systems use the microphone so you can ask them anything you want, as opposed to selecting from predefined options. Either way, its gonna be quite interesting times imo, and the various use cases of ai will be in the next gen, what actually offers that 'next gen' feel that players felt has been missing with the current gen.
 

BWJinxing

Member
This sounds like ass creed Valhalla levels of side quest.

Ick. Disposable quest and plot lines.

honestly, why not focus on AI doing the scripting, code optimization.

what good will be all these AI world games when it's locked to 30 fps due to the one s.
 
If people expect devs to start replacing writing with AI-generated content in a Bioware or Larian RPG, they are fucking delusional. That's obviously NOT what people want, [most] devs included.

If people expect devs to start replacing writing with AI-generated content in a Bioware or Larian RPG, they are fucking delusional. That's obviously NOT what people want, [most] devs included.
On the other hand, there are already plenty of genres where "procedurally-generated content" is a sizable portion of the experience, and in these cases this type of tech could have a significant impact in keeping things fresh.
Take as an expample a Mount & Blade or a No Man's Sky where the hundreds of randomly generated NPCs don't share the same fucking twelve lines.
I mean, I expect a lot of stuff like this will be replaced. You really don't need to write each and every fetch quest yourself. Hell, you can give every NPC its own unique generated quest, while doing something completely different not wasting time on that. Like you don't need waste you time writing description for each minor thing. Just throw it to ChatGPT and proof read later. That's it.

The funny part is that it is literally not different from tens or hundreds of people buying models in Unreal Engine Marketplace, instead of hiring people to do that for them :messenger_tears_of_joy: "Marketplaces are taking our jobs". I don't need to search for a freelancer in order to draw me some models for a game - not only I need to spend my money on that, there is no guarantee that I will recoup it. And it will days and weeks for him to complete his job.

A lot of people just overestimate their value and importance. Like a lot of creatives are looking down at other too. It is also funny talking about "plagiarism" when people are literally drawing characters from other games or characters designed before them. Why not create new characters instead? Why are you "copying"?
I think a lot of Resetera posters can be replaced with bots and nothing will change much. Same nonsensical takes.
 
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Fredrik

Member
Oh for sure there's definitely gonna be a period of player adaptation. Even some games that have 'chatty' NPC's it can be confusing to determine which to bother to pay attention to and which to ignore. Final Fantasy was one of those, tho even those you did pay attention to you would quickly regret :messenger_tears_of_joy:...There'll need to be clever mechanics to indicate WHO you should bother talking with, and WHAT line of questioning you should pursue, particularly if these systems use the microphone so you can ask them anything you want, as opposed to selecting from predefined options. Either way, its gonna be quite interesting times imo, and the various use cases of ai will be in the next gen, what actually offers that 'next gen' feel that players felt has been missing with the current gen.
I’m thinking they need to rebuild all dialogue and quest mechanics from scratch and simulate the real world instead.
Normally you don’t go talk to random strangers on the streets. And people don’t have ? and ! over their heads heh
Why do we try to talk to everybody in games? It’s not normal. Imagine someone trying to talk to everybody they see on a busy street…
That’s just an 80s mechanic that has survived til now. IRL you usually call a friend or surf the web if you want to know how to do something, only scenario where you ask a random stranger for help is if it’s urgent or if it’s about something you know that person might actually know something about.
 
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Raven77

Member
I mean there was an entire industry of artists that would actually touch up/modify/restore/enhance/colorize/etc negatives and photos by hand that was wiped out by the advent of digital photo editing.

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you advocating against the internet? Because 100's of thousands brick and mortar stores were put out of business by Amazon alone.

Your possible response may be: But the Internet also created jobs.

To which anyone who has a deep understanding of what AI will bring about would respond: and so will AI.

There will be job losses, it's tough. But that's progress.

Your side buzzcut blue-haired female characters will just be modeled by an AI.
They just won’t have a human model, so you can’t cry they made the human model uglier in the game.

I don’t know how people can expect more creativity when the tools are programmed by the same kind of people who makes today’s games. The Bing image creator has been censored in a matter of a few weeks, and whatever end product these AIs can speed up will still be sanitized before release. Oh, passersby in open world games will have different lines everytime you walk around them, what a thrill. That will make your fetch quests that much more interesting, I’m sure.

You don't understand what AI means for games when it comes to creativity.

Lower cost = more appetite for risk taking
More risk taking = more creative games
 
I mean there was an entire industry of artists that would actually touch up/modify/restore/enhance/colorize/etc negatives and photos by hand that was wiped out by the advent of digital photo editing.
And there were people who were growing horses, swtiched off / on lamps on the street and cleaned chimneys. We also had stations where people had to go in order to make an international call. All those jobs were lost! We also needed more soldiers to transport weapons, rather than just using vehicles.
 
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SHA

Member
AI needs parenting, you can't just input neurons inside shallow 3D objects and expect it to behave, it doesn't work like that.
 

Zannegan

Member
AI is coming whether you like it or not. And when looking at all the trash writing in games these days it may do just fine. In terms of breaking us out of all the woke nonsense, I wouldn't count on it. AI is what you train it on and allow. IF you feed it a bunch of garbage then it will output garbage. I completely expect western gaming companies to feed it rubbish and restrict it from all kinds of ideas based on whatever is the most cutting edge popular woke bullshit. Best gaming stories will continue to come from countries where they don't give a shit about all that nonsense, like Korea, Japan, and Eastern Europe.
As to story quality, there is a silver lining here that (assuming the tools aren't too expensive or too tightly controlled), smaller studios of genuinely different perspectives might be able to create large scope games. Big studio games without big studio safe politics.

But that's a best case scenario outcome, and those don't typically pan out.
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
AI-powered story games could be (will be, one day) incredible if done correctly. You could build out entire subplots with NPC who knows specific information and have their own agendas, where natural speaking to them as the player requires some level of thinking and elicits updates to their internal agendas and thoughts as a consequence.

But Microsoft is the worst possible company to push this. They'll make it lowest-common-denominator, use it cynically to just pump out cheaper content and more boring sidequests, or something along those lines. It was only a few years ago that they promised "the power of the cloud" would make xbox games leap beyond the hardware's capabilities and that never materialized either.
 
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