Sorry, but the belief in a "silent majority" is quite delusional.
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Germany now expects up to 1.5 million migrants in 2015
- Thread starter leatherhat
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Sorry, but the belief in a "silent majority" is quite delusional.
yes, the 50,000 refugees that are expected to arrive in Finland by the end of 2015 will take over the culture of a country of 5.4 million completely, it's only a matter of weeks really! Women rights will be revoked, Sharia law replaces the judicial system, everyone panic!
I love how little confidence many people have in their own culture that they think it to be so defenseless and unappealing to others that they would immediately replace it with theocracy. Something thatobviously!every single refugee plans to do right after arrival.
....and the US isnt much better:
How many of those actually applied to the US and passed the process? Or did you want an open border scenario.
Right and what if its a 50k refugee enclave like what has occurred in France?
Chairmanchuck
Member
This is horrible to the real victims of rape.
I wrote here before but a friend of a friend (Chinese) was raped by a refugee. Thank god the police quickly caught him, but nevertheless.
You dont lie about such things. Seriously!
To asses the actual risks we would first need statistics on how many of those refugees have a cultural background that could hinder their cultural integration. I am not aware of up-to-date statistics/studies on that issue. We can only look at the general world views present in the major countries of origin like Syria (relatively secular state with what appears to be center-right, relatively mild conservative Islamic religious education and practice), Afghanistan (probably the most problematic cultural background), and Albania (relatively irreligious society).
In any case, the number of refugees with a practically problematic cultural background will be—quite obviously—vastly lower than the total number of refugees. It's still a potential issue that needs to be addressed with smart ways of cultural integration of refugees into their host societies. But to fear an unmanageable cultural conflict seems unwarranted and hyperbolic to me.
then the state fucked up somewhere along the way. Allowing the formation of mini-ghettos can't be in the interest of anyone, integrating the refugees properly into society is key
Yes. Smart societal and cultural integration is the only practical way forward, as well as further attempts to host refugees closer to their states of origin by funding efforts there and increasing political pressure on states that do not enough. Unless we really want to be a society that forces people at gunpoint back into the countries where they came from.
As I thought I didn't manage to put it together well. I find it weird/odd/ironic that maybe the Finns themselves might be the ones to "restrict" an aspect of their own culture in response to the rapes, while that is often something that stereotypical is what they are afraid of will being introduced by the immigrants by taking over Finish culture.
I might over or underplay what Finns actually think since I'm not Finish.
Hope it's clearer now.
Portugal offered to receive almost 5k refugees - 50 accepted
And this is why the notion of quotas is foolish idealism.
And this is why the notion of quotas is foolish idealism.
on the other side, preventing the formation of mini-ghettos would be a huge and incredibly expensive undertaking.
I can only imagine, just from the perspective of the legal right to having an interpreter alone makes it sound incredibly daunting to spread refugees into the population.
Frankfurter
Member
Could you paraphrase what the article is about? Why were only 50 accepted and who accepted those 50?
GunslingerVit
Banned
An die "besorgten Bürger":
Haha, spot on.
Since when has this ever even been about "they took our jobs"? Guess if you can't properly address the real concerns you need to create a straw man to make fun of instead.
Also wie ihr so ständig macht?
GunslingerVit
Banned
Must have been a mistake to assume that two sentences by a comedian could cover and address all the issued concerns satisfyingly.
Who is "ihr"?
Then maybe don't do drive-by posts of shitty Facebook memes?
Die armen besorgten Büger, denen hier im Thread Angst und Bang vor den bösen brandschatzenden, vergewaltigenden und mordenden Asylantenhorden ist.
GunslingerVit
Banned
To be honest, the majority of 'arguments' in here are unreflected, biased and fear-mongering posts that you will find on Facebook as well. I don't see any real debate or discussion here.
Oh hey another strawman. Keep striking those down, gotta reduce your cognitive dissonance somehow right. And in case you haven't noticed, this is an international forum. For the sake of including non german-speakers, I suggest you keep it in english like everybody else.
That might well be true, I haven't really followed the thread. But that's no excuse to shit it up even more, weighing up bullshit with more bullshit doesn't make things more balanced.
BTW I'm out of this thread. If the mere suggestion of taking a moderate position on an extremely complex topic gets you flamed, there's clearly no potential for any worthwile discussion left.
From the rough translation provided by Google Translate it seems that the main reason is that asylum seekers simply do not want to be moved to other countries. So it's "only 50 refugees" that accepted to be moved.
Not wow, not surprising at all. This just shows the people arguing earlier in this thread how reality works.
This is an issue because there is no way to distinguish between real (attempted) crimes and made-up ones. A female friend of mine was almost taken away in broad daylight by a group of refugees. While I don't doubt her, it's easy to make something like this up. Also, it's pretty much impossible to punish the people responsible.
Not really "wow"-worthy. Swedish police and government are just incredibly stupid. "Hey, let's close the border for 10 days to let them know we cannot take more, after that surely not more will come." "Oh, we should tell these immigrants to leave or we will deport them, then they will surely be prepared and abide by our laws."
I have never lived in a country before where people have been this naive.
Forsete
Member
System is buckling under the pressure.
https://www.msb.se/sv/Om-MSB/Nyhete...yheter-fran-MSB/Nationell-lagesbild-vecka-48/
Report for week 48 from the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency.
So, when will these new measures that the government announced come into effect? April?
https://www.msb.se/sv/Om-MSB/Nyhete...yheter-fran-MSB/Nationell-lagesbild-vecka-48/
Report for week 48 from the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency.
So, when will these new measures that the government announced come into effect? April?
polls: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...gegen-weitere-amtszeit-merkels-a-1065082.html
Should Merkel run for a fourth term?
Yes 44 %
No 48 %
Is Merkel handling the refugee crisis right or wrong?
Right 40 %
Wrong 47 %
Should Merkel run for a fourth term?
Yes 44 %
No 48 %
Is Merkel handling the refugee crisis right or wrong?
Right 40 %
Wrong 47 %
ClosingADoor
Member
That's not just here or online. It seems with this discussion you are either a Nazi wanting all refugees gone or death, or a left wing lunatic wanting the whole world to move in and give them all your money.
It's kind of sad really, since we do need to help a lot of people, but also look into the troubles that this situation can cause and address them properly. But with all the yelling at each other - even between politicians who need to fix this stuff - nothing is really done. Everybody is too afraid to upset their voters to work together towards a solution.
An die "besorgten Bürger":
Funny how that's so much more racist and ridiculous than people fearing immigrants "steal their jobs" implying they're all poor when they basically get Hartz IV and often already studied something, have no ties and are too dumb to speak English which many refugees speak very well.
Evolution of Metal
Member
What is Sweden supposed to do? Arrest all of them and transport like prisoners? That is how all EU countries work: you inform people to abide laws at first, especially if those people haven't broken any laws before that. Those immigrants were allowed to enter Sweden.
Clearly it didn't work, but now immigrants, who stayed, have broken laws. Now you can justify using force to deport them.
A bit surprised by how high the "right" percentage still is.
I mean first we invite everyone over and now we'll basically pay Turkey to keep the refugees in their country. That's not a good handle to me but more like emergency solutions.
Also I love this nebulous "culture" that they're protecting. If I have to think of a case of "loss of culture" (that's not war related obviously, loads of cultural items were destroyed in the wars) I'd point at Halloween being so dominant. Yet that was driven by pure profit motives, they wanted to sell costumes twice per year (instead of only on Fasching). How many kids still go out on St. Martin's day to sing for candy when it's so much simpler to demand treats on Halloween? The only cultural impact I see from all the muslims is that food places will certify their meat as halal.
Crimson Kopite
Banned
Multiculturalism is a wonderful ideal usually espoused by college kids who can go home to their safe neighborhoods for Winter break. Everyone wants migrants to be safe and welcomed into society, yet how many of those people rattling the sabre of progress are moving in to lend a hand?
It apparently took Merkel an extra month to realize what everyone with a brain realized from the start; economic migrants, many of whom are young, able bodied Muslim men who pour through borders with forged passports (or completely undocumented), to enter a state which will provide them the most social benefits is nothing more than a ticking time bomb. This has nothing to do with "All Muslims = Terrorists" or "Brown people = Bad". It has to do with inherent pressures that build when you have varying groups of people who either
1) Don't speak the native tongue
2) Don't want to assimilate in any way and accept the norms of their new home
or both coming en masse to a society that is foreign to them.
Add in existing populations that are increasingly weary and skeptical of taking on more people, and the objectively terrifying statistics on Sharia acceptance among the Muslim community, and it's clear to see this entire situation has been floundered by Merkel from the start. I also place significant blame on the media for spending the month of October framing Hungary as being a bunch of racist assholes for wanting to protect their sovereignty and borders. It's not racist to be a realist.
We should help people. I have sympathy. I'm not worried about Europe "losing culture", but I firmly believe Merkel's open arms policies at the start of this crisis will have one of the longest and most significant effects on Western politics and society that any leader has made in 50 years. 14,000 migrants "disappearing" is just another strand in this tangled and dangerous web that has no end.
Culture is more about just food, language, and rituals. It includes cultural values and world views. And in this respect, I actually do see potential for conflict. Not all cultures are compatible, and some cultures aren't as respectful of human rights than others.
This is the point where I become skeptical of naive versions of multiculturalism. I see the key to a peaceful and working society of migrants in integration and—yes—assimilation where necessary. Peaceful coexistence of all cultures is a naive myth. How, for instance, can you built a working society if one group isolates itself from another group through language barriers and clustered neighborhoods, and rejects values like freedom of expression, speech, and religion?
This is a problem that we will likely have with some refugees coming from some cultures. Afghanistan, for instance, seems especially problematic, judging from the data available to us. To be very clear, this does not apply to all refugees. And I am convinced that the vast majority of all of them, no matter the cultural background, are decent people who just seek safety for them and their families, and who are thankful for help. But especially if we will end up having to integrate these people permanently into our society, because their home countries will not stabilize themselves anytime soon, we will have to aware of the challenge of integration that we will have to face.
And I see more opportunity than risk here. Because I am quite confident that our cultural values are more appealing to people once they come into contact with them. Which will only happen if we mandate integration and prevent isolation. Germany's society is full of such success stories, but also has failed in some respects over the last decades. Let's just learn from that.
This assumes that they want to integrate. In my experience there often tends to be an active unwillingness to do so.
Liberty4all
Banned
What's going on in Berlin? Just saw a news alert there was a riot/brawl at one of the refugee centres involving HUNDREDS of refugees?
I don't think there is much reliable information yet. Apparently an argument started between Syrian and Afghan refugees that kept escalating until more than three hundred people were involved.
I think that one was yesterday. Today was one at Tempelhof.
Liberty4all
Banned
Found this one on NBC: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sy...kle-mass-brawl-berlin-refugee-shelter-n470916
It's not saying people are lying about these things, but it's saying that "black peril" is this overblown idea. Of the 150 young teens raped in Finland annually (according to this post) should the refugee programme be suspended because of two instances? Also remember that refugees are themselves vulnerable to sexual assault.
So it's more that people view immigrants disproportionately as criminals over native populations, and immigrants are also are ignored as victims of crime.
jimbobsmells
Member
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...olved-in-mass-brawl-at-berlin-refugee-shelter
More violent than 'normal'? What the hell?
Hesemonni
Banned
Umm..there's atleast 10 cases of rape in investigation where the suspect is a refugee / asylum seeker. Source (unfortunately in Finnish)
Latest rape happened on Friday in Helsinki (Source again, in Finnish).
Absolute numbers of rape cases are completely irrelevant when talking about large numbers of people.
The only potentially relevant statistic would be one about whether refugees commit a statistically significant higher number of crimes than non-refugees or not. As far as I know, nobody has provided any solid evidence for that claim.
The only purpose of anecdotal "evidence"—positive or negative—is to amplify the prejudices that are already prevalent in your own echo chamber.
The only potentially relevant statistic would be one about whether refugees commit a statistically significant higher number of crimes than non-refugees or not. As far as I know, nobody has provided any solid evidence for that claim.
The only purpose of anecdotal "evidence"—positive or negative—is to amplify the prejudices that are already prevalent in your own echo chamber.
Hesemonni
Banned
Here's a study from 2014 titled "IMMIGRANTS AS CRIME VICTIMS AND OFFENDERS IN FINLAND" made by basically a branch of Department of Justice. English summary is on the last page.
There are quite good graphs in the study, but basically in rape crimes people from Africa, the Middle-East and Northern-Africa are well represented.
It's not saying refugee seekers / asylum seekers, but yeah, these things tend to happen in certain groups of populace higher than other groups. According to studies.
I can't read Finnish, but I can, for instance, quote the comprehensive annual report of the German government on the situation of migrants in Germany that states that migrants are not generally more criminal than non-migrants.
https://www.bundesregierung.de/Cont...gebericht-lang.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=4
https://www.bundesregierung.de/Cont...gebericht-lang.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=4
It is not the migration that caused the hike in the number of crimes; what truly matter are poverty, social isolation and relative deprivation. The sad fact is that immigrants, especially refugees of the same origin in large numbers are prone to those causes.
I do not think Germany, or any other country in this world, has the capability to smoothly integrate millions of foreign people into their economy. The kind people of Europe would provide refugees with all the necessary resources, however it takes a lot more than a warm bed and some hot food for a human being to live in this cruel world with his or her dignity. When the refugees realize that they cannot get a decent job, socialize with others or go to universities and have to live in their own niche, a specifically designated refugee community, that is where trouble begins. And I am afraid that it will happen sooner than later.
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