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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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Resilient

Member
Just started to take learning Japanese seriously. I've learned bits and pieces but nothing beyond Hiragana and Katakana and maybe some verbs. Now I'm basically in a private school and the teacher barely speaks english. We're already on to Kanji which I know isn't a big deal but it's fun and I want to keep learning. Any solid advice for a beginner?

And also totally off topic but where can I watch older J-Dramas? Like IWGP and the old GTO etc. I can't find them anywhere and I miss them :( (PM if you need to concerning this! Thanks!).

you picked a good time to start!

how much time do you have on your hands, and how many hours a day, and days per week do you commit to studying?
 
you picked a good time to start!

how much time do you have on your hands, and how many hours a day, and days per week do you commit to studying?

I'll spend about 2 hours a day, sometimes less for studying. We only have one class per week, Saturday's from 9-1230. Sometimes 9-2. Since it's 101(this school goes from 101-104 all the way up to 404), things are super simple right now so unless I want to stay ahead, one hour a day is plenty of time right now to dedicate to studying/homework but down the road, I can commit a few hours a day with no issues. I love the language and love learning so I won't mind sacrificing other things to learn. I think my favorite thing is the teacher and assistants barely speak English in class. I also like that we use Genki. Lots of informal lessons are taught. It's also all year round and whatever teacher you started with in 101, you'll be with them (and whichever classmates remain) until 404! That's 4 years of getting to know everyone and learn together along with having the same teacher.

The OP hasn't been updated so I was wondering what were some good sources and where I could watch things without subs. Shows, news etc. Also just general advice.
 

Resilient

Member
I'll spend about 2 hours a day, sometimes less for studying. We only have one class per week, Saturday's from 9-1230. Sometimes 9-2. Since it's 101(this school goes from 101-104 all the way up to 404), things are super simple right now so unless I want to stay ahead, one hour a day is plenty of time right now to dedicate to studying/homework but down the road, I can commit a few hours a day with no issues. I love the language and love learning so I won't mind sacrificing other things to learn. I think my favorite thing is the teacher and assistants barely speak English in class. I also like that we use Genki. Lots of informal lessons are taught. It's also all year round and whatever teacher you started with in 101, you'll be with them (and whichever classmates remain) until 404! That's 4 years of getting to know everyone and learn together along with having the same teacher.

The OP hasn't been updated so I was wondering what were some good sources and where I could watch things without subs. Shows, news etc. Also just general advice.

Yeah the OP is pretty bare bones. Well it depends on how far you want to take your learning now. The last few pages are really good for discussion if you want to see how everybody is approaching their study. Porcile and myself are doing a brute force method at the moment which requires min 4hours per day, optimally 6.

What do you want to achieve right now? Are you happy to progress at the pace of your class? Do you want to get N1 in the next 1, 2 or 3 years? Are you moving to Japan? There is a lot of info to be had from the thread, just depends on what you wnt to achieve and then it's a matter of one of the others who is studying similarly to you trying to help you out.

A good start would be, as mentioned a few posts backs, these books A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and A Dictionary of Intermediate Grammar, which will both give you a strong foundation for your grammar studies.

I can recommend work books/text books etc but it depends what you're after; do you want to start studying JLPT N5, N4 or N3 content? That's why I've asked what you want to get out of this study. You can fast track all this stuff using a method that I'm an expert posted, but only if you want to commit that much time to it for a fair few months.
 
Yeah the OP is pretty bare bones. Well it depends on how far you want to take your learning now. The last few pages are really good for discussion if you want to see how everybody is approaching their study. Porcile and myself are doing a brute force method at the moment which requires min 4hours per day, optimally 6.

What do you want to achieve right now? Are you happy to progress at the pace of your class? Do you want to get N1 in the next 1, 2 or 3 years? Are you moving to Japan? There is a lot of info to be had from the thread, just depends on what you wnt to achieve and then it's a matter of one of the others who is studying similarly to you trying to help you out.

A good start would be, as mentioned a few posts backs, these books A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and A Dictionary of Intermediate Grammar, which will both give you a strong foundation for your grammar studies.

I can recommend work books/text books etc but it depends what you're after; do you want to start studying JLPT N5, N4 or N3 content? That's why I've asked what you want to get out of this study. You can fast track all this stuff using a method that I'm an expert posted, but only if you want to commit that much time to it for a fair few months.

Over the years, I've bought various books but never taken them seriously. I have about 6 books published by Kodansha and I have the "Dictionary of" books you mentioned. I'd say I have a couple dozen books, mostly recommended by Japanese teachers and professors. I'll crack those two open tomorrow and check them out. I didn't see the post even though I looked a couple of pages back for Im An Expert's method.
 

Resilient

Member
Over the years, I've bought various books but never taken them seriously. I have about 6 books published by Kodansha and I have the "Dictionary of" books you mentioned. I'd say I have a couple dozen books, mostly recommended by Japanese teachers and professors. I'll crack those two open tomorrow and check them out. I didn't see the post even though I looked a couple of pages back for Im An Expert's method.

Yeah if you have them that is good.

Honestly I just threw those books out there cause I have no idea what your status is and why you want to study and want you want to achieve. So it was better than nothing. Do you want to start learning Kanji? Do you want a large vocab? Do you want to articulate yourself better and learn to read? It just depends on what you want

Experts method for Kanji, Vocab and Grammar can be found at post 8330 and the listening strategy is on page 8588. they require probably 6 hours per day for 3 months though and will likely take excel you quite far past your class that you just started.

It just comes down to what you want to do, there are plenty of people who can help you achieve it in the thread at the moment.
 
While I have all three grammar dictionaries, is Remembering the Kanji Vol. 1 worth picking? I know it's the Heisig method (which I've seen some either recommend or don't) and doesn't teach you the readings (which is Vol. 2?), but is it a good resource to try and learn the necessary Kanji?
 

Porcile

Member
Never used it, but could you imagine putting in two or three months work completing the first book, and after all that time still not actually be able to read any Japanee? I think there are many better ways of learning kanji both casual and intensive. Honestly you just have to do some research and find the one which you think best suits your approach and goals, but do make sure you're actually learning some Japanese when you find that method.
 

Resilient

Member
Heisig is horribly out dated. I regret buying it, it was a waste of my time. It will probably be a waste of yours too

If you like that style of learning, some people here use Wanikani but again I dot personally like that style of study. Like Porcile said it just depends on what you know will work for you.

When you finish RTK you will not know much of anything.
 

Nocebo

Member
I didn't want to create a thread and this seems like the best place for help so, can anyone tell me what the Japanese quote at the start of this song is?

https://youtu.be/-Y0u0IC24js

I believe it is from a film.
Perhaps you heard it watching Kill Bill? I get hits on google for kill bill when I google the text.

武士たる者 戦いに臨んでは
ただ 己の敵を倒す事に 専念すべし
一切の喜怒哀楽 更に 情けは無用なり

邪魔だてする者 それが例え神であろうと
仏であろうと これを斬るべし

これ即ち 戦いの根本に隠れし極意

bushi tarumono tatakai ni nozonde ha
tada onore no teki wo taosu koto ni sennen subeshi
issai no kidoairaku sarani nasake ha muyou nari
jama date suru mono sore ga tatoe kami de arouto
hotoke de arouto kore wo kiru beshi
kore sunawachi tatakai no konpon ni kakureshi gokui

Translation (not mine):
For those regarded as warriors, when engaged in combat the vanquishing of thine enemy can be the warrior's only concern. Suppress all human emotion and compassion. Kill whoever stands in thy way, even if that be Lord God, or Buddha himself. This truth lies at the heart of the art of combat.

While I have all three grammar dictionaries, is Remembering the Kanji Vol. 1 worth picking? I know it's the Heisig method (which I've seen some either recommend or don't) and doesn't teach you the readings (which is Vol. 2?), but is it a good resource to try and learn the necessary Kanji?
I've never used remembering the kanji. But it aims to use visual representations for radicals and kanji parts to make a story to remember a kanji with right? I think this is in essence a good way to try and remember kanji as a kanji is/was like a picture. I have Japanese children's kanji book that explains kanji in a similar way. For example 集 is supposed to be a bunch of birds sitting in a tree.
To me this seems like a pretty natural and logical way to help memorize kanji. But you don't need to follow a book to use this technique if you understand the concept.
 

Kansoku

Member
Remembering the Kanji sole purpuse is, well, help you remember kanji, and only that. It doesn't teach you anything (well, maybe that radicals exist), and serves only as a tool for you to get familiar with kanji and have an easier time remembering them if you don't want to go for the bruteforce method of writing them a lot everyday.

When I started learning I had the mindset that, first I want to learn their writing systems and the sounds of the language, before going into any grammar or vocab. To me it seemd useful, so I learnd hiragana and katakana, while learning their sounds, and other stuff, like the nasal g, devoicing, mora, etc. Then I used RtK to get familiar with kanji (as learning them with their readings by themselves wouldn't be good, and would be a lot of work), so that I could start seeing them not as a bunch of random scribbles, but as something that made sense.

Right now I remember nothing of what I "studied" with RtK, but, I found it helps a lot with leaning vocab. Their meanings and readings, I'm picking up wilhe doing vocab, but I have an easier time reconizing the kanji, distinguishing similar ones, search kanji that i dont know or don't remember, etc.

So keep that in mind. I did 20 new kanji per day, I wrote them, manually put them in an Anki deck, and reviwered them Keyword->Kanji on AnkiDroid, so that I always would write the kanji on the screen before checking the answer. It took me 6 months (2200 kanji after all). I picked the book but by the end I pratically only used the Kanji Koohi site (looking at it now, they had a redesing and I can't find the place where people submitted their mnemonics). Kanji Damage follows pretty much the same methodology, so you might look into that as well. And maybe you can just get an Anki deck/spread sheet of the material in them.
 
Yeah if you have them that is good.

Honestly I just threw those books out there cause I have no idea what your status is and why you want to study and want you want to achieve. So it was better than nothing. Do you want to start learning Kanji? Do you want a large vocab? Do you want to articulate yourself better and learn to read? It just depends on what you want

Experts method for Kanji, Vocab and Grammar can be found at post 8330 and the listening strategy is on page 8588. they require probably 6 hours per day for 3 months though and will likely take excel you quite far past your class that you just started.

It just comes down to what you want to do, there are plenty of people who can help you achieve it in the thread at the moment.

I would ideally want to work for a company that deals with Japan. So maybe not live there but travel to Japan and live in the US. Translate documents or interpret for natives/English speakers. Let's say I do go for the N1 and pass but have no degree on my resume, are there any job prospects open to me (without knowing someone)?
 

Resilient

Member
I would ideally want to work for a company that deals with Japan. So maybe not live there but travel to Japan and live in the US. Translate documents or interpret for natives/English speakers. Let's say I do go for the N1 and pass but have no degree on my resume, are there any job prospects open to me (without knowing someone)?

How soon do you want to get the N1? There are ways but when it comes to the bolded to get the N1 (hardcore study) and you should check out what Expert posted. It may work for you, it may not. Depends on how soon you want it. You can get it within a year based on what he has explained.

I don't know enough about job prospects in Japan aside from my field. but you said you don't have any qualifications. So I have an idea that it might be hard as would any job. You could always try being a JET? There are other people more experienced that will give better info than I can.
 
How soon do you want to get the N1? There are ways but when it comes to the bolded to get the N1 (hardcore study) and you should check out what Expert posted. It may work for you, it may not. Depends on how soon you want it. You can get it within a year based on what he has explained.

I don't know enough about job prospects in Japan aside from my field. but you said you don't have any qualifications. So I have an idea that it might be hard as would any job. You could always try being a JET? There are other people more experienced that will give better info than I can.

I'd say in about 3 years I'll go for the N1 so winter 2018 (that's the last one right? After N2?).
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Too many posts, no time. Glad to see the thread active. I might msg gromph and ask him if it's ok to make a new thread because I agree the op needs to go.
 

upandaway

Member
Doubt there'll be any problem creating a thread for proper title/OP change, saw other communities do it too (like the VN thread). Some communities are too small to wait until the post limit

Even better if the new thread is made outside of Community and moved in later
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Yeah itd be better to start it in off topic first. I'm swamped till 12/15 but after that I could do it. I might not be the best though because i have a propensity to be banned and a perm is probably not far. But ill do it next week if no one else wants to.
 

Porcile

Member
Reading through the OP, the last section just makes me laugh. I have no problems with mnemonics and continue to use them passively (I don't write them down or anything, they're just quick references in my head) for remembering which radicals make up a kanji, but I love how his elaborate and time consuming RTK method entirely revolves around learning 2000+ fairly useless English meanings for single kanji characters, and then when it comes to actually learning Japanese he's like "You don't. So fucking what?". Awesome.

Like when he first saw 自転車 was he like "What the fuck is a self revolving car? Oh, I guess that must be a Robotic Gyrocar or something."

+1 vote for a new thread.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
If anyone has any recommendations for resources they'd like included in the new op, just let me know. The thing that will take time for the new op is I'd like to have an actual beginner guide at the top rather than all the hardcore shit. So I'll have to write that up. All the things you guys have posted these last few weeks will definitely help.
 

Resilient

Member
If anyone has any recommendations for resources they'd like included in the new op, just let me know. The thing that will take time for the new op is I'd like to have an actual beginner guide at the top rather than all the hardcore shit. So I'll have to write that up. All the things you guys have posted these last few weeks will definitely help.

lets be honest, our beginner shit is going to be pretty sloppy. i can help and post some resources i felt were useful when i was trying to start learning seriously but thats about it.

im sure a few of us can contribute to a podcast list too. maybe when the others wake up, they'll have something more useful.
 

hitsugi

Member
There are a billion ways for a beginner to approach the language, and then a billion separate resources for each method. It is definitely overwhelming for someone new.

I know Genki is commonly recommended, but lately I keep reading Genki isn't so hot if you're entirely self-study.. so... perhaps a rough outline of a pure self-study plan (expert sort of already laid this out?) in the next OP for beginner / intermediate level would be helpful
 
Apparently we have a bunch of jlpt1 masters in this thread, yet no one posts anything related to high level study.

Uh, I'm a JLPT N1 passer, not a "Master." Even though I have taken and passed all JLPT levels (before they made N5), I can only confidently explain grammar points up to N3 level. Maybe it's my style of learning...I did the grammar book and worksheets thing for a while but I'm a lazy fuck who absolutely detests studying. I play best by ear and I can usually tell when something is wrong in Japanese, but I may not know how to fix it.

I love learning, though. I learn best hands-on with context, so reading, listening, writing, translating, and speaking real Japanese is my best teacher. Before I took the N1 exam I had 6 years of using the language professionally. Being thrown into the fire of real world, professional Japanese is a magnitude of times harder than any JLPT exam.

So my advice for high-level study is basically just to "get down and dirty with real Japanese" and well...it's just common sense. Probably not what most people would want to hear.

Let me make one thing clear, absolutely, positively, do not use songs for study. Songs are incredibly stylized, symbolized, and molded by their genre. Think about this logically in English. If someone tried to learn English using country music, or hiphop, or rock, how different their experiences would be. Would they ever hear that kind of English anywhere outside those songs? Songs are something you can enjoy on the side and delve into much later, but do not try to dissect songs and learn from them. Don't. do. it.

Don't. do. it.

You will waste your time. Don't tell me about how easy and slow your favorite anime or drama song is. Please, trust me. Don't do it.

I agree with most of what you posted, except this point above. Yes, songs can be incredibly stylized. But that doesn't matter because what you "lose" in the stylization you make up in the sheer amount of vocabulary and kanji that you absorb--passively! Songs are a great way to delve into a language. They're easy to pick up. They're fun. That's why they make great learning tools. My Japanese hubby who is incredibly fluent in English (with no awkward Japanese accent despite never having lived outside of Japan) said he first got into studying English after listening to the Beatles song "Imagine." He liked singing it, despite not knowing the meaning. That encouraged him to start learning English.

This is also reminds me...during a placement exam during my stint as an exchange student, there were only 2 of us in the class who knew the Japanese word for "chase". The word had not been introduced in any Japanese textbooks up to level 3 at that point, as far as I knew. I asked the other girl (who also knew), how did you know it? She replied, "Gravitation!" and we immediately sang in unison 「ねぇ・・・追いかけて、追いかけて 白い風・・・・」 (Translation: Chase the white wind). We burst out laughing, as we found out we were fellow fujoshi who knew the opening song of a popular yaoi anime by heart. Even anime songs can be helpful at unexpected times!

I believe any form of media that is enjoyable for the learner and encourages him to learn is fair game. Be it J-Rock, manga, games, or what-have-you. The two things that helped me the most in picking up the basics were: 1) a teacher, 2) manga. I like having a teacher for language learning for structure and to point out mistakes that I wouldn't be able to spot otherwise. As for manga, I absolutely loved reading them when I was a teen and would sacrifice all my lunch money to buy the latest, un-translated volume of my favorite series. So what if I didn't understand 75% of the text? I had a paper dictionary handy (no internet in the dorm back in the day) and PICTURES to give me context clues. I was invested enough in the story that going to extreme lengths to understand it was not a hindrance to me. I was lucky most of my favorites were shoujo manga since the genre uses useful, everyday Japanese that I could immediately put to use. Learning from action-packed shounen manga was 10x harder and 5x less useful. But if that's what floats your boat...

TL;DR: I don't think using songs to study Japanese is a waste of time. If you love J-Pop or J-Rock, it will make it easier for you to pick up the language.

Although if someone is using songs to study for JLPT N1, I would suggest they aim for a much lower level...for now.
 

Nocebo

Member
I agree. Where else can you pick up words like 黙示録 and 失楽園 in an easy and fun way than in an uplifting song?
 

Nocebo

Member
Eh? In all seriousness songs are not a bad tool for learning at all. They're designed to be catchy, so sentences can easily get stuck in your head. Which is a good thing. It is no surprise that children are often taught using songs.
 

Kansoku

Member
Yes, songs are great. It's kinda like anime/manga. Everywhere you go people say you shouldn't use anime/manga for learning, because they either are extremely rude, or overly polite, or that no one talks like that in real life, or whatever argument. The things is, you can totally use it, you just need to have common sense. I really doubt that any serious learner would think that they are a good depiction of the use of the language, or that they should imitate it.

Songs are even less problematic. You still need to have common sense. I'm not going to listen to Asriel hopping to learn anything other than gothic shit and weird metaphors. And even if I try to get vocab from it, I know better than to use it seriously in my day to day life. I'm not some 12 year old kid that is obsessed with Naruto and try to use juutsus with my tomodachi to improve our kizuna. I'm not going to tell my boss that I can't go to work today because "The crimson blood moon cries tears of sorrow, and thus it signals my fate is intertwined with the threads of the lord of the 4th Hell Circle, which makes my right arm burn with the deepest flames of hell". And of course normal songs are not representation of "normal" Japanese. Poetic language, use of metaphors, I have yet to see a song that don't use 倒置法. But that doesn't matter, there are still lots of benefits for using them.

Obviously there's vocab. There are stuff that doesn't appear as frequent in other media, but there's also a lot of creative use of vocab trough metaphors, expressions, slang, or even vocab with meaning that doesn't come up as often. The interesting is the grammar tho. Songs are grammatically correct. In any language. Well, generally. They might not be what is used day to day, but they are correct. And it's interesting to see how they play with it. You might even learn some uncommon usage of a grammatical point, or maybe even make some sense of some grammar due to a weird usage in metaphors or whatever.

But above all else they are fun. It's fun to listen to them. It's fun trying to dissect the lyrics. I'm always listening to music (a lot of what I listen to is Japanese and it was the little spark that made me decide to learn jgo), and even if I'm not actively listening and trying to understand, it's still helpful because I get more familiar with them, the lyrics get clear and clear, and I often get the urge to sing along. My listening got better for it. I still don't understand much because my overall ability with the language is pretty poor. I was SUPER stoked when I was listening to androp's Nam(a)e (casually, not paying a lot of attention), and kinda understood the first verse, and I was like "wait, what. Did I hear what I thought I heard?" and went to check out the lyrics and search the vocab and grammar I didn't know, and I got the overall meaning right. Or how the first couple of times I watched indigo la End's 幸せが溢れたら MV, didn't understand what that dialog, tried to translate the lyrics later, got the overall meaning, forgot half of the stuff (every time, I go look at what しどろもどろ is, and I always forget), thought I understand what it meant. Then recently, I went back to it I understood the dialog, even thought I can't hear what she's saying in the middle (I understand いろんなこと○○は忘れたち, not sure on the たち tho), and it changed my understanding of the song from "They were childhood friends (for some reason the first two verses made me think of that), were super close, started dating, the guy did something bad and ran away, time passes, he sees her, remember of the past, sees how he still loves her, but it's too late, she is basically 'You're dead to me' and stuff", to "They were a couple, she has a diseases that makes she forget stuff (Alzheimer or something I guess, not well versed on these things), because of that the guy left her, and when he sees her much later she don't remember him, yet he does and still loves her." Or, last example, how I learned that cellular division is 細胞分裂 trough きのこ帝国's 夜鷹 (and also that nightjars are a thing), tho I can't even pretend to understand what the song is about.

Shit this got bigger than I planned.
 

RangerBAD

Member
What's the difference of using potential versus a plain verb when using ようになる? A difference of "can"?
 

Zoe

Member
I wouldn't say songs ever really helped me with vocab or anything cause my vocabulary sucks, but if there's anything it's good for that would be reading speed. You can become a master at karaoke even if you don't know what you're saying :p
 

eot

Banned
Can you use から to refer to two independent clauses?

For example:
-Why do you want to go to McDonalds?
-Because I'm hungry and because I like hamburgers.

I'm not sure how to say the second sentence because in all the sentence patterns I've learn the entire sentence has the same tense, which is the one the final verb takes. Or can you say something like:

お腹がすいた、ハンバーガーが好きですから。
 

Resilient

Member
What's the difference of using potential versus a plain verb when using ようになる? A difference of "can"?

I've interpreted &#65334;&#12376;&#12375;&#12423;&#12358;&#24418;&#12539;&#65334;&#12394;&#12356;&#12288;&#65291;&#12288;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12427;&#12539;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12288;as meaning "I'm gonna try to/I'm gonna make sure to <achieve verb>" and don't use it when I try to express the potential of doing something &#65308;&#65334;&#12363;&#12398;&#12358;&#24418;&#65310;&#12290;
 
Can you use &#12363;&#12425; to refer to two independent clauses?

For example:
-Why do you want to go to McDonalds?
-Because I'm hungry and because I like hamburgers.

I'm not sure how to say the second sentence because in all the sentence patterns I've learn the entire sentence has the same tense, which is the one the final verb takes. Or can you say something like:

&#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#12377;&#12356;&#12383;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#12425;&#12290;

I think the best way to do this is using &#12375; to link the clauses. &#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#12377;&#12356;&#12383;&#12375;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#12425;&#12290;For some reason this isn't covered in Genki (or even Tobira? I forget) even though it's an extremely basic and common conversational device.
 

RangerBAD

Member
I think the best way to do this is using &#12375; to link the clauses. &#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#12377;&#12356;&#12383;&#12375;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#12425;&#12290;For some reason this isn't covered in Genki (or even Tobira? I forget) even though it's an extremely basic and common conversational device.

&#12375; is Genki II. They put it in place of &#12363;&#12425; when you have multiple reasons for a situation. Maybe that's a different usage.
 

Aizo

Banned
Bringing Jmusic gaf over, kansoku.
I also always forget that same line in &#24184;&#12379;&#12364;&#28322;&#12428;&#12383;&#12425; every time.

Obviously, studying lyrics to learn the language would be odd, and more passive study doesn't have a place in hardcore study methods, but it is fun to read lyrics for songs by artists like &#12466;&#12473;&#12398;&#26997;&#12415;&#20057;&#22899;&#12290;every now and then.
 
What's the difference of using potential versus a plain verb when using &#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12427;? A difference of "can"?

It would be better if you had examples but I guess these will do:

&#9312;&#28023;&#22806;&#12395;&#34892;&#12387;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12469;&#12521;&#12480;&#12434;&#39135;&#12409;&#12425;&#12428;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;
&#9313;&#28023;&#22806;&#12395;&#34892;&#12387;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12469;&#12521;&#12480;&#12434;&#39135;&#12409;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;

In &#9312;, the person couldn't and wouldn't eat salad before, but started eating her veggies after going abroad. In &#9313;, the person ate salad before and didn't hate it, but didn't care about it either way. But after going abroad, she started liking salad a lot and started eating it regularly.

&#9314;&#28023;&#12398;&#36817;&#12367;&#12395;&#24341;&#12387;&#36234;&#12375;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#27891;&#12370;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;
&#9315;&#28023;&#12398;&#36817;&#12367;&#12395;&#24341;&#12387;&#36234;&#12375;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#27891;&#12368;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;

In &#9314;, the person didn't know how to swim before but learned how after moving to a place near the sea. In &#9315;, he already knew how to swim but didn't swim all that often. But after moving to a place near the sea, swimming became a habit for him.

Hope that helps.

Can you use &#12363;&#12425; to refer to two independent clauses?

For example:
-Why do you want to go to McDonalds?
-Because I'm hungry and because I like hamburgers.

I'm not sure how to say the second sentence because in all the sentence patterns I've learn the entire sentence has the same tense, which is the one the final verb takes. Or can you say something like:

&#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#12377;&#12356;&#12383;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#12425;&#12290;

If it were me, I would use &#65374;&#12375; (explanation: https://www.renshuu.org/index.php?page=grammar/individual&id=102)

&#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#31354;&#12356;&#12383;&#12375;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12384;&#12363;&#12425;&#12510;&#12483;&#12463;&#12395;&#34892;&#12365;&#12383;&#12356;&#12290;
 

Resilient

Member
It would be better if you had examples but I guess these will do:

&#9312;&#28023;&#22806;&#12395;&#34892;&#12387;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12469;&#12521;&#12480;&#12434;&#39135;&#12409;&#12425;&#12428;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;
&#9313;&#28023;&#22806;&#12395;&#34892;&#12387;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#12469;&#12521;&#12480;&#12434;&#39135;&#12409;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;

In &#9312;, the person couldn't and wouldn't eat salad before, but started eating her veggies after going abroad. In &#9313;, the person ate salad before and didn't hate it, but didn't care about it either way. But after going abroad, she started liking salad a lot and started eating it regularly.

&#9314;&#28023;&#12398;&#36817;&#12367;&#12395;&#24341;&#12387;&#36234;&#12375;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#27891;&#12370;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;
&#9315;&#28023;&#12398;&#36817;&#12367;&#12395;&#24341;&#12387;&#36234;&#12375;&#12390;&#12363;&#12425;&#27891;&#12368;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;

In &#9314;, the person didn't know how to swim before but learned how after moving to a place near the sea. In &#9315;, he already knew how to swim but didn't swim all that often. But after moving to a place near the sea, swimming became a habit for him.

Hope that helps.



If it were me, I would use &#65374;&#12375; (explanation: https://www.renshuu.org/index.php?page=grammar/individual&id=102)

&#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#31354;&#12356;&#12383;&#12375;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12384;&#12363;&#12425;&#12510;&#12483;&#12463;&#12395;&#34892;&#12365;&#12383;&#12356;&#12290;

LOL i need to learn to read English words gooder. didn't pay attention to the versus.

is this an N2/N1 thing or just a way of combing patterns to express yourself?
 

eot

Banned
I think the best way to do this is using &#12375; to link the clauses. &#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#12377;&#12356;&#12383;&#12375;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12391;&#12377;&#12363;&#12425;&#12290;For some reason this isn't covered in Genki (or even Tobira? I forget) even though it's an extremely basic and common conversational device.

If it were me, I would use &#65374;&#12375; (explanation: https://www.renshuu.org/index.php?page=grammar/individual&id=102)

&#12362;&#33145;&#12364;&#31354;&#12356;&#12383;&#12375;&#12289;&#12495;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12460;&#12540;&#12364;&#22909;&#12365;&#12384;&#12363;&#12425;&#12510;&#12483;&#12463;&#12395;&#34892;&#12365;&#12383;&#12356;&#12290;

Thanks :)
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
So just to return to the song conversation, few points. That blurb I wrote about not using songs was specifically in relation to my study method. For my study method, it is simply a waste of time. If all you did was literally translate the lyrics, fine, but then you're probably completely overlooking the actual usage of the words in the song. So now what do you do, spend more time trying to define the symbolism behind the words? For this study method, that's wasted time.

I posted that example song at the bottom of the post and no one has tried to answer it yet. It wasn't rhetorical. If you were a fairly beginner to lower intermediate person, how would you interpret that example I gave. How much time would you spend on trying to figure it out, only to realize that if you had more base Jgo knowledge on the whole, you wouldn't need to 'translate' it. You'd just know what it means.

Songs are something you can better understand when you have a good foundation. You can come back to them later. Even Kansoku's post says 'yeah songs! ..though I can't understand this part, this part doesn't stick with me, and on the whole I have no idea what I'm listening to.'

Ok.

So then the other argument is oh I love this jpop song and I'm gonna learn it! I mean ok, that's fine, from a casual study perspective. You like songs, you want to learn more about the songs, this is just a fun hobby. No issue with that. Hey, you'll learn a few vocab and random phrases. Ok.

Ok.

So now what..? Now you still need an actual study method to understand the actual language. I even said in my original post that you can delve into and enjoy songs later. But using them in the beginning as a 'fun' way to study this language, IF YOU HAVE THE INTENTION OF LEARNING THE LANGUAGE AND NOT JUST CASUALLY TREATING IT AS A HOBBY, is just not a good long term method.


I'm going to assume this is the general argument (ignore the weebery) for song study(do not ignore that after years the author say they're barely intermediate):
http://www.tofugu.com/2015/04/08/le...this-method-has-taught-me-about-the-language/

Go to the part that says
I&#8217;ve found that another important and interesting lesson you can learn from this process is getting really down and dirty with how many different ways there are to translate the same simple line. Songs are great for this because the differences are partly because the grammar of Japanese is so different from English, and partly because essentially we&#8217;re talking about poetry, not simple &#8220;My name is Linda, pleased to meet you&#8221; textbook phrases.

This is the part I don't want someone tripping over. If you're at a level where you can tackle this shit, then of course. But before you're there, it's a waste of time, because it requires more than just understanding vocab or grammar.

Does anyone remember this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-_and_low-context_cultures
This applies to the language as a whole of course but layer on the fact that most music is the equivalent of poetry and there you go.
 
So just to return to the song conversation, few points. That blurb I wrote about not using songs was specifically in relation to my study method. For my study method, it is simply a waste of time. If all you did was literally translate the lyrics, fine, but then you're probably completely overlooking the actual usage of the words in the song. So now what do you do, spend more time trying to define the symbolism behind the words? For this study method, that's wasted time.

<SNIP>

So now what..? Now you still need an actual study method to understand the actual language. I even said in my original post that you can delve into and enjoy songs later. But using them in the beginning as a 'fun' way to study this language, IF YOU HAVE THE INTENTION OF LEARNING THE LANGUAGE AND NOT JUST CASUALLY TREATING IT AS A HOBBY, is just not a good long term method.

If that's your study method, that's fine. Various language learning methods exist and people learn differently. In fact, my favorite method now that's used in the French language school I'm attending involves no grammar textbooks or worksheets whatsoever. I wish I had learned Japanese with it.

I'm surprised since it seems you equate "learning Japanese through songs" as using songs solely as your teacher. I doubt somebody who has zero knowledge of Japanese grammar basics could even attempt to understand, much less translate a song. As for the link you posted, I find the "Learning Japanese From Songs" method by the Tofugu writer too involved, and based on the outdated Grammar-Translation method of language learning. As you point out, Japanese does not translate well to English.

However, I still think Japanese songs are a great way to complement Japanese studies at any level. Does it even matter if the person didn't understand 100% what the lyrics were about? I find new meanings in my favorite songs that I've heard hundreds of times.

I get the feeling from your posts that serious learners of Japanese should forego the fun but banal aspects of Japanese learning (songs! anime! manga!) and get right to the meat and bones. Maybe that would work for some people. The serious, &#12460;&#12522;&#21193; ones? Personally, it would just make learning the language more tedious than it already is for me. You underestimate the sheer amount of vocabulary (and even a bit of grammar) that a learner passively (read: effortlessly) absorbs just by singing/watching/reading things that they love. Even if they don't understand it now, or even if it's way beyond their level, input is input. One day they will encounter a word, a phrase, or a kanji similar to what they had encountered before and they will be able put two and two together because they had prior input.

Again, I would like to clarify that a learner still needs the basics of grammar and vocabulary. There needs to be a solid base to be able to learn from songs and other 'fun' stuff.
 

Kansoku

Member
I agree with what marimorimo said, so I won't repeat much of that. And yeah, I honestly forgot the context of that part, thou I do remember being bothered by it when I first read your post. It's just that it always bother me when people dismiss these things (anime, manga, songs, games, etc.).

I learn English basically trough games. I've been playing games since I was 5 (I'm 20 now). There were no games in Portuguese at the time. The closest was Spanish and a lot of people used that, but I always preferred English, even though I understand nothing. As a kid I used t get stuck a lot in games, so when I had access to Internet, I would check for "Detonados", which is what game walkthroughs were called. But there were very few of them, so eventually I had to use GameFAQs which was in English. And around that time I began playing RPGs, so I had more exposure of English than ever. What i did to understand? Google Translate. It was utter shit back then. It got some nouns correctly, but otherwise, it was awful. Yet it was all that I had. I still remember one time when I was playing one of the MegaMan Battle Network games and didn't know where to go. There was a button that MegaMan would give you a hint of where to go next. I copied the text to GT and got some nonsense, but it was then that I learned what "pier" was. I had to parse this thing and try to make sense of it. I also always watched movies and TV series with subs. I hated Brazilian dubs with passion. That was my listening exposure. And little by little I absorbed the language. By seeing the usage of stuff, things began to be natural for me. Kids have that ability, as it's by that they they get their mother language. I had the luck to be able to learn English with that as well. I was always the top student in my English classes at the school. My parents always tried to put me on specialized language learning "schools" (would it be correct to say cram school?), but I was always above the level of the class I was put it. Textbooks bored me to tears, I didn't do the exercises the teacher asked unless they were being graded. I sill don't know jack shit about grammatical terms. I still don't know what "Past Perfect" is. Yet I could always do things because it became natural to me, because I played games on it, even though I didn't understand shit.

Now I'm 20. I don't have that kid ability anymore. I'm not going to pick up the entirety of the Japanese language listening to songs, watching anime, or playing games. But that does not mean I won't pick up anything from them. That doesn't mean I should disregard them completely. Any correct use of a language can and will be useful. No, you should NOT only use songs, or only anime, or anything. The same way that Genki should no be your only source. I should be a sum of all the parts you are using. The thing is, these things are enjoyable, and when they are part of the sum, they make the whole process more enjoyable. They can break the monotony of study, can see some real and fun application of your actual studies, they can compliment those studies and they can provide different views of the things you learned. To me trying the see where a grammatical point is used in a song than those boring textbook samples. One of the reasons that I hated textbooks is that they want to make hings more interesting and not a full on technical explanation of the grammar by putting these dialogs, but the only thing they did to me is bore me out of my made. They made the process a lot less fun. I hated those "Hi Sally. do you like cats? | Yes John, I like cats. Do you like cats John? | Yes Sally, I also like cats". No one talks like that in real life. The same way that no one talks like anime in real life, but sure it's okay when the textbook does it. I looked into a preview of Genki. I kept seeing it being recommended, so I thought, maybe this is different, maybe this will be nice. Nope, it was the same shit. I read Tae Kim's 2 times, h second one taking notes, and doing a summary. While it's not filled with these awful dialogs, the explanations are very basic and very "it is because it is". It did very little to me, I've been reading trough the Dic of Basic Japanese Grammar, and it's the first time I'm actually learning and "having fun" learning the language. It has the right amount of technical stuff without overusing technical terms (Which is what bothers me a little about Imabi), and it has no frills, it is the straight grammar point. And then I can use songs or whatever to compliment those. To see usages. And that's me. Countless people can do fine with Genki, I couldn't. There's people who can do well with a more brute force approach. I doubt I can, though I never tried. There's people that need more technical stuff then me. There's people that aren't bored of translating NHK Easy News daily. I would be. The thing is, of course they should not be your main focus, no matter how you learn. But to some, they can make the whole process better, and it should not be easily dismissed upfront. It's all on how you use them.
 

Kansoku

Member
To quote someone wise:

Now I'm 20. I don't have that kid ability anymore. I'm not going to pick up the entirety of the Japanese language listening to songs, watching anime, or playing games. But that does not mean I won't pick up anything from them. That doesn't mean I should disregard them completely.

Especially since this wise person is not talking about something that involves writing systems ;)
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
To quote someone wise:


Especially since this wise person is not talking about something that involves writing systems ;)

All that is fine. I don't advocate textbook learning either. Brute forcing is so you don't fall in the trap of 'I'm going to watch anime and play games for 5 years and still not be able to read a kids book.' If you enjoy the way you're learning, great. Keep it up. You will never be proficient at Japanese. And if the response is 'I'm not trying to be' then you might as well ignore most of the stuff in these kind of discussions.
 
I don't understand why serious study (if that's what you meant by "brute forcing") can't co-exist with the fun stuff. Especially since the fun stuff is the reason why most people want to learn Japanese in the first place. You seem to think there's some impossible barrier, that if someone didn't follow these exact steps they'll never be proficient. There's no such barrier because people have different learning styles or different circumstances, and I have several first-hand experiences that prove it.

I was a member of a Japan Friendship club in college and I had dozens of friends who were anime/manga/J-Pop enthusiasts. When I was a freshman, these people were already Level 2 or 1 passers. I deeply respected them and often asked for help and advice in learning Japanese. Their answers? Make Japanese friends, read manga (BL at that), even one who swore on using the karaoke to learn kanji. Another friend who was a big advocate of using manga for learning eventually became a Japanese language professor at our university. And when I passed Level 2, and then Level 1, I myself gave others the same advice.

I would always recommend formal study and grammar lessons, which build a foundation for higher-level grammar. But in fact, I know several people who achieved N3 level with zero formal study. They went to live and work in Japan and thus had no choice but to pick up the language. A friend was able to speak it well enough to hold conversations and get by after only 6 months. Are they fluent? I can't say yes, but the fact that they know enough of the language, without touching a single grammar book, to function in Japanese society astounds me. It tells me that even as an adult, the brain has a boundless capacity to absorb a language. And it has more than one way of learning how.
 

Russ T

Banned
I've got a friend whose entire motivation to learn Japanese was to be able to read manga and watch anime and play games in the native language. He's told me that he actually used those things to learn, and then branched off from there. I'm not sure exactly how proficient he is, but he's at least fluent enough to have worked as a programmer in Japan for some bank.
 

Resilient

Member
I'm not trying to be a total smart ass, I'm just trying show you a reason as to why the two (hardcore study and leisure study) can't co-exist by nature.

Uh, I'm a JLPT N1 passer, not a "Master." Even though I have taken and passed all JLPT levels (before they made N5), I can only confidently explain grammar points up to N3 level. Maybe it's my style of learning...I did the grammar book and worksheets thing for a while but I'm a lazy fuck who absolutely detests studying. I play best by ear and I can usually tell when something is wrong in Japanese, but I may not know how to fix it.

<snip>.

So my advice for high-level study is basically just to "get down and dirty with real Japanese" and well...it's just common sense. Probably not what most people would want to hear.

for me, it's about time. I don't have time to "waste" studying something for leisure, or at a slow pace for the sake of enjoying it. but i also have the luxury of not hating the way I'm doing things now. I'm hating that I don't sleep as much as I used to, but aprt from that I enjoy making things and turning it in to &#12364;&#12426;&#21193;. i'm writing this post as i eat breakfast and the i'm going to turn around and study for the next 6 hours. i'm tired, but i'm making progress faster than i did in the last 18 months since I started. i probably, no, likely wasted the last 18 months. that gives me motivation to keep doing things the way i am now.

i spent my entire Saturday studying, and at night when i was done i decided to play Burning Rangers (JP) and Bomberman. I got a warning screen that told me I needed to clear 38 blocks of space and i just ... read it. No dictionary, no confused look. Kanji and all it just read naturally to me. Which was awesome. A month ago I would have inferred the meaning but I would have done it with a dictionary.

Then I loaded Burning Rangers and understood maybe...........20% of what they were saying and that pissed me off. Did I have fun? Yes it was a video game, it was fun. I was annoyed I couldn't understand shit though. But that's why im studying. I'll come back in 1 month with 700 more Kanji under my belt and a firm grasp of Grammar up to N1, and then I'll have more fun. cause I will know more. i could sit there and play it with a dictionary. but that's not fun. and it won't stick. 90% of it won't stick. i might remember i word. i actually remember one but can';t find the meaning. whenever i got hit by fire the guide would say over radio &#12414;&#12363;&#12394;&#12356;! which googling means "boarding; board; meals; catering; cook" ... yeah...no... i even just spent 10min trying to find it on youtube so i could hear it better, and now i wasted my time. already lost 10 min today. that's annoying, cause i could just go and study and then learn that would eventually plus another 1000 or so along the way.

I'd rather do it like that (hardcore study), and make better use of my time. there is nothing wrong with using the songs, but it depends on what you're trying to get out of the language. i don't want to be ready to work in Japan in 3 more years, i want to be ready by July.
 

Porcile

Member
The issue is some of you aren't really making the distinction clear between using media like songs as learning content, and applying learning to media. The latter of which is totally different. Are you using a song to learn actual useful information, or are you more just taking in a few random words and saying to yourself "this is useful!" Big difference.
 
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