• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Why was there backlash for DmC Dante? He was just as good.

Cidd

Member
It is definitely funny for people to shit on nuDante for being edgy
4446451-3959098548-vJ8pO.gif

cuz old Dante sure wasn't


Did you have a problem with it in Deus Ex Human Revolution?

Feel like people are giving Kamiya way too much credit as some 'creative satirical rock and roll genius'

I think you're misinterpreting what "Edgy" is.
 

Darrenf

Member
The DE is pretty good. I still don't like the characters or anything but the gameplay is magnificent, but just be sure to enable Turbo and Hardcore before starting.
I just read up on Hardcore Mode, I'll definitely enable that. I'll try out Turbo as well. Thanks for the recommendation.
 

gafneo

Banned
There's not really that much to discuss at this point. The actual shitty thing about this whole situation is that Capcom basically created two fanbases and pit them against each other. All that waffling and evasiveness about whether DmC was a spinoff or the future of the series was infuriating.

How could Capcom know what the future of DMC was? People bashed DMC2 so much for being easy. They then made DMC3 and got crap for it being too hard. They ended up rereleasing it with an easy mode. Soon after, people complained saying DMC4 was too bland and same old. After they gave us DMC with a new hair cut. All hell broke loose. People are never satisfied. Capcom did their best.
 

nded

Member
They put no effort into formatting that wall of text for a proper discussion to made. Should I just write an equally non legible amount of stuff to have arguements with tons of things I disagree with?

Oh, so you want people to have a "meaningful discussion" with you but don't want to actually listen to them.

How could Capcom know what the future of DMC was? People bashed DMC2 so much for being easy. They then made DMC3 and got crap for it being too hard. They ended up rereleasing it with an easy mode. Soon after, people complained saying DMC4 was too bland and same old. After they gave us DMC with a new hair cut. All hell broke loose. People are never satisfied. Capcom did their best.

I'm not saying Capcom did it on purpose, it probably just ended up happening because of poor decisions and them reacting even more poorly to the resulting backlash.

Also, people didn't bash DMC2 because it was too easy, they bashed it because was a pretty bad game; worse than DmC's initial release, in my opinion. DMC3 and 4 sold well enough because fans of the series typically put a premium on the gameplay and mechanics which remained consistently good despite these games' very real flaws.
 
To be fair to Ninja Theory, I do think Capcom put them in an position where there was no winning with regards to the changes they made. Based on the fact that Capcom farmed it out in the first place to "broaden the Western audience", not changing Dante probably wasn't ever on the table.

I mean, Ninja Theory may be a lot of things, but I don't think they're anime-phobic. The games they made previously were basically a wuxia game and the single most retold story in Japanese culture (The Journey to the West), I can imagine that there were probably some big fans of DMC on-staff that were pretty sore about Capcom's insistence in chasing a probably non-existent audience*.

*By which I mean this supposedly statistically significant portion of Western gamers who wanted to play DMC-style action games, but weren't because they were "too anime" or "too Japanese". I'm sure survey respondents said that, but I'm also fairly sure that most of the ones that did weren't actually interested in DMC-style gameplay to begin with, and there was never an "expanded audience" to capture. DMC4 was probably swinging close to market cap for the series as it stood.

This has been Capcoms entire misdirection as well as other japanese devs last gen.
They were trying so hard to capture an audience that wouldn't have been interested anyway.

I recall when it came to Resident Evil that the shift was to capture COD money but COD fans want COD and no amount of gameplay changing is going to make them come your way.
 
You're...not serious? Are you?

Dude is completely hopeless.

I can never get used to people hearing articulate criticism of something they like, then reading it as "you shouldn't like this."

Christ. I'm not a huge fan of the series, but It too was curious what the backlash was all about, and I thank those couple of posters who laid it out completely in this thread. I also wish luck to anyone hoping to actually discuss that stuff going forward, because goddamn. There are some people who are the embodiment of anti-discussion who seemingly live to bring discussion to a halt. Good fucking luck, because goddamn.
 

gafneo

Banned
Oh, so you want people to have a "meaningful discussion" with you but don't want to actually listen to them.

I don't own people to want anything from them. I was simply stating that we were having a meaningful discussion because she said what I talked about made no sense. I was sarcastic about getting through. I am not going to compile anyone's giant novels into a discussion. I'm not getting paid for all that work.
 
I don't own people to want anything from them. I was simply stating that we were having a meaningful discussion because she said what I talked about made no sense. I was sarcastic about getting through. I am not going to compile anyone's giant novels into a discussion. I'm not getting paid for all that work.

???????????????

You just dismissed a huge list of reasoning for no reason.
 
Y'know, I've had the impression for a while now that Capcom have had absolutely no idea what to do with Devil May Cry as a franchise. The first game was intended to be Resident Evil 4, so it was basically a happy accident. No-one knew what the hell was going on in 2s development, 3 had Reuben Langdon basically translate the script himself and ad lib jokes that wouldn't work in English and 4 finally had the budget to pull off something spectacular...Before they decided it was taking too long and rushed it out the door, leaving us with the infamous backtracking section. The next decision was to get rid of the whole thing and start anew, which completely severed the fanbase in half and made the future uncertain.

EDIT: There was also the anime. Remember that?
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't own people to want anything from them. I was simply stating that we were having a meaningful discussion because she said what I talked about made no sense. I was sarcastic about getting through. I am not going to compile anyone's giant novels into a discussion. I'm not getting paid for all that work.
This is the sophisticated version of "too long didn't read".

Would you like me to compartmentalize each aspect of that post so we can discuss them one at a time?
 

gafneo

Banned
This is the sophisticated version of "too long didn't read".

Would you like me to compartmentalize each aspect of that post so we can discuss them one at a time?

If you would like to summarize it, that would be more helpful. The conclusion will speak for itself.
 

Sesha

Member
They put no effort into formatting that wall of text for a proper discussion to made. Should I just write an equally non legible amount of stuff to have arguements with tons of things I disagree with?

Your reading comprehension is suspect then, because I'm pretty sure in my post that I lament multiple times why nobody talks about the various features DmC introduced that are actually novel and unique and interesting, like the incredibly awesome Ricoshot, the fact that in-game speed increases at S rank and above, or the incredibly extensive stat-tracking system.
 

demidar

Member
This is the sophisticated version of "too long didn't read".

Would you like me to compartmentalize each aspect of that post so we can discuss them one at a time?

I think you'll still get naught :V

That said, I don't have anything against NT. They were dealt a bad hand and did the best they could (Tameem notwithstanding >_>). I put the fault mostly on Capcpom.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
You know, ive been reading these post on how DmC Dante isnt a great character and how the combat in the newer game isnt as good but im wondering why people continue to even try? This happens to every DmC thread,even if that thread has nothing to do about the characters or the combat. Those post do nothing for me because i liked the game. So those crticism to me arent critisims. You guys liked the old games, we get it, I did to. But i hate that people are trying to convince other people over and over that DmC Dante is a bad character and that og Dante is so much better or how the combat in the older games was way more complex. I know it was way more complex, and i still liked the newer game more. Honestly, by just observing these post you can tell that fans of the older games are bitter that their favorite character has been replaced with someone that they dont like and will never like, and will find every negative aspect of his character to dislike. But anyways, it seems like both versions of DMC are on life support, so it seems neither party is going to get what they want.

It's an exchange of ideas. Proper discourse. I completely understand people being tired of the discussion on both sides and deciding to not bother. That's probably the smarter approach.

But the intent of my post wasn't to tell you what to like. It was to suggest that maybe people have legitimate issues that they want to convey and it's not all stemming from irrational hatred. These people value certain things that you might not, and vice versa, and that's okay. But to dismiss these things as unimportant is just silly, especially considering how Ninja Theory addressed a number of them in the DE.
 

Jpope

Neo Member
Dante lost a lot of style when he lost the white hair and gained an obnoxious personality.
I'm your prom date you ugly sack of shit.
They added way too much edginess to the character without bringing any new cool things for 'em. Also it irked me that his initial new design was based off the Director of the game
 

Curufinwe

Member
It is definitely funny for people to shit on nuDante for being edgy
4446451-3959098548-vJ8pO.gif

cuz old Dante sure wasn't


Did you have a problem with it in Deus Ex Human Revolution?

Feel like people are giving Kamiya way too much credit as some 'creative satirical rock and roll genius'

You don't know what the word edgy means.
 

Astral Dog

Member
DMC4 is the worst DMC. Remake is as DMC as DMC gets. You are desperestly trying to find faults but fail to prove a point. Both games are campy action games. Only real difference is one is Japanese art, other is European.
Im sorry but no, how could DMC 4 be worst DMC with some of the very best characters in the genre? With DmC and DMC 2 around?
 

Sesha

Member
This has been Capcoms entire misdirection as well as other japanese devs last gen.
They were trying so hard to capture an audience that wouldn't have been interested anyway.

I recall when it came to Resident Evil that the shift was to capture COD money but COD fans want COD and no amount of gameplay changing is going to make them come your way.

Yep. God of War fans don't want DMC. DMC will never be a franchise capable of selling beyond 2-3 m. In fact, that's what the SoulsBorne games sell and it's perfectly respectable.

I think you'll still get naught :V

That said, I don't have anything against NT. They were dealt a bad hand and did the best they could (Tameem notwithstanding >_>). I put the fault mostly on Capcpom.

People blaming NT are just being silly. NT for the most part are good people and we're really lucky that people like Rahni Tucker and TribladeX were involved.

Capcom pushed for a more radical direction, while NT pushed against. Capcom for example was against lock-on. TribladeX revealed a late version of the game actually had lock-on but was removed upon request. There's still references to a lock-on in the game files.
Same with the character design. It's finally when NT made the Jared Leto Joker-esque suspenders Dante that Capcom said "uh, not that radical". Basically Capcom didn't know what they wanted and threw the baby out with the bathwater in the hopes that the title, streamlined gameplay and familiar surface elements would be enough to endear more people to the game.
 

gafneo

Banned
Your reading comprehension is suspect then, because I'm pretty sure in my post that I lament multiple times why nobody talks about the various features DmC introduced that are actually novel and unique and interesting, like the incredibly awesome Ricoshot, the fact that in-game speed increases at S rank and above, or the incredibly extensive stat-tracking system.

Ok, that is one thing I agree with, but I dissagree with long nitpicking rants in general. You want a wish list. Try making a game and fulfilling all your dreams in time ans budget. BtW, NT doesn't have to be ignoring fans to not include past features in the first itteration. They were having budget issues with Hell Blade so they went with a Dark Souls style of combat to save money. Same thing could have been with DMC.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
They put no effort into formatting that wall of text for a proper discussion to made. Should I just write an equally non legible amount of stuff to have arguements with tons of things I disagree with?

All of a sudden paragraphs aren't legible formatting anymore? And you expect people to respect and entertain your laziness by providing tldrs that will allow you to ignore the meat of any discussion?

If you want an honest and thorough discussion with people listening to what you have to say, then you should be prepared to extend that same courtesy. No rant or wishlist was posted. Hell, even skimming it would have told you that.
 

TreIII

Member
People blaming NT are just being silly. Capcom pushed for a more radical direction, while NT pushed against. Capcom for example was against lock-on. TribladeX revealed a late version of the game actually had lock-on but was removed upon request. There's still references to a lock-on in the game files.
Same with the character design. It's finally when NT made the Jared Leto Joker-esque suspenders Dante that Capcom said "uh, not that radical". Basically Capcom didn't know what they wanted and threw the baby out with the bathwater in the hopes that the title, streamlined gameplay and familiar surface elements would be enough to endear more people to the game.

It probably didn't help that this game was likely one of Inafune's last few "brainchildren" before leaving the company. And after his departure, those who were left had to scramble real quick to save the project in some way.

Given what happened, NT probably made the best effort they could with the hand they were dealt. And it's probably just a good thing that other things Inafune was trying to push through, like "Maverick Hunter" (MegaMan X: The FPS), were cancelled before it got too much farther along, instead.
 

Sesha

Member
Ok, that is one thing I agree with, but I dissagree with long nitpicking rants in general. You want a wish list. Try making a game and fulfilling all your dreams in time ans budget. BtW, NT doesn't have to be ignoring fans to not include past features in the first itteration. They were having budget issues with Hell Blade so they went with a Dark Souls style of combat to save money. Same thing could have been with DMC.

You're confusing me. I was talking about this thread, here, right now.
 

Sephzilla

Member
People blaming NT are just being silly. NT for the most part are good people and we're really lucky that people like Rahni Tucker and TribladeX were involved.

Capcom pushed for a more radical direction, while NT pushed against. Capcom for example was against lock-on. TribladeX revealed a late version of the game actually had lock-on but was removed upon request. There's still references to a lock-on in the game files.
Same with the character design. It's finally when NT made the Jared Leto Joker-esque suspenders Dante that Capcom said "uh, not that radical". Basically Capcom didn't know what they wanted and threw the baby out with the bathwater in the hopes that the title, streamlined gameplay and familiar surface elements would be enough to endear more people to the game.

I think NT is entirely to blame for the really bad story and acting though.
 
Dude is completely hopeless.

I can never get used to people hearing articulate criticism of something they like, then reading it as "you shouldn't like this."

Christ. I'm not a huge fan of the series, but It too was curious what the backlash was all about, and I thank those couple of posters who laid it out completely in this thread. I also wish luck to anyone hoping to actually discuss that stuff going forward, because goddamn. There are some people who are the embodiment of anti-discussion who seemingly live to bring discussion to a halt. Good fucking luck, because goddamn.
This isn't exclusive to this discussion. Analysis and critique are frequently treated as if a holy cow had been defiled. The difference between reviewing a product and critiqing a piece of art is indiscernible to many.

Just look at the lack of understanding of the concepts of "edge" and "camp".
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
What is wrong with new Dante you mean?

The thread title is "why was there backlash for DmC Dante?" not "what is wrong with new Dante"? Those are different questions.

Grantd, part of the thread has been sidetracked with DMC fans just hating all change, but that stemmed out of a suggested reason for the backlash.
 

Nottle

Member
Og Dante has a really corny charm about him that I like. Like he is cool to a ridiculous degree and in ways that are dumb. Same reason I like Jotaro from Jojo.
 

gafneo

Banned
The thread title is "why was there backlash for DmC Dante?" not "what is wrong with new Dante"? Those are different questions.

Dante in hisself was only backlashed because of a haircut. Gameplay aside, DMC Dante is same old wise cracking kid who wants to break the rules. In itself you would expect Dante to want a new look. He wants to shock. That's his personality.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Dante in hisself was only backlashed because of a haircut. Gameplay aside, DMC Dante is same old wise cracking kid who wants to break the rules. In itself you would expect Dante to want a new look. He wants to shock. That's his personality.

I wasn't asking you. I was clarifying what the topic is. Your opinion is that the backlash stemmed from a haircut, despite people suggesting the contrary. It's pretty clear that you're just cemented in your position and have no interest in actually engaging in a conversation - you just want to talk at people.

But I certainly would like to hear your reasonings that are founded in something on this topic. If you decide to write them one day.
 

Sesha

Member
What is wrong with new Dante you mean?

What more is there to say? No one will change anyone else's mind. The backlash didn't happen because of the hair nor do people continue to dislike DmC Dante because of the hair, and no amount of rebuttals or counter points will ever be able to dispel that fallacy. The hair discussion is doomed to become just like the "SF3 killed SF" discussion, i.e. something ultimately pointless that is best left unmentioned.
 

IvorB

Member
Same with the character design. It's finally when NT made the Jared Leto Joker-esque suspenders Dante that Capcom said "uh, not that radical".

Oh man, I totally forgot that Jared Leto-Joker travesty was a thing. What an unwelcome recollection. :-(
 

AJ_Wings

Member
I'd like to point out another aspect of the backlash which is the reveal of the developers Ninja Theory whose previous efforts were mechanically lackluster action games. Enslaved directly preceded DmC, a game widely criticized for its combat and systems.

A lot of fans were rightfully worried about Capcom handing one of the most venerable character action franchises to a completely unproven (as of that time) developer instead of the DMC team which was working on Dragon's Dogma at the time.
 

gafneo

Banned
I wasn't asking you. I was clarifying what the topic is. Your opinion is that the backlash stemmed from a haircut, despite people suggesting the contrary. It's pretty clear that you're just cemented in your position and have no interest in actually engaging in a conversation - you just want to talk at people.

But I certainly would like to hear your reasonings that are founded in something on this topic. If you decide to write them one day.

So what is it besides the haircut to disagree with?
 

Sephzilla

Member
There were a bunch of reasons the initial backlash happened.
  • DMC4 sold really well, so there was no reason to reboot the series
  • DMC4's problems had nothing to do with the characters or world.
  • There was no reason to switch dev teams. Itsuno's team had DMC figured out.
  • The reboot of a gameplay focused franchise was handed to a team that was not known for solid gameplay.
  • Radical visual change to a character a lot of people liked. Reboot Dante's look in the initial reveal trailer was honestly bad design regardless of him being a rebooted character or not. I think even NT acknowledged that given that he looks fairly different even in the final version of DmC
  • Tameem coming out and basically bashing original Dante did him no favors.
 

Dahbomb

Member
If you would like to summarize it, that would be more helpful. The conclusion will speak for itself.
First of all I would like to say that DmC DE is a good overall action game and better than 90% of games in its genre. This genre is already niche so trying to dogpile each game while propping another doesn't really help the genre much. People like DmC over DMC and that's perfectly fine of course. No one is berating another person for liking DmC.

The DMC fans just don't like being generalized by statements like "they don't like change so they are bitter" or "it's just about the white hair Dante". It's reductive discussion and uses scapegoats and strawmen as arguments. It's drive by post drivel. "Oh that one dude on youtube complained about DmC, yup must be a DMC fanboy who is bitter by the changes and hair". Just like I am sure DmC fans don't like being generalized as NT/Western dev apologists.

Now as to why the original game got its backlash, I am just going to focus on the game play changes. Stuff like character designs, art, soundtrack, writing are extremely subjective and in those categories they are just changes and hard to argue if they are changes for the worst or not (just different). I am also not going to talk about the PR failure related to the game. Game play changes are easier to quantify and compare. Here are but SOME of the changes DmC made to the original series that were perceived as worse changes:

Framerate changed from 60 FPS to 30 FPS

The series was always 60 FPS and for good reason, it was a series known for tight, responsive and fluid game play. DmC the original release on consoles didn't feature that and felt worse for it.

(They fixed this for DMC DE so now even on consoles DmC is 60 FPS)


Removal of lock on

This was another series staple and gave DMC its identity (over say stuff like GoW and Ninja Gaiden). The lock on is what gave DMC that precise feel in combat as you always attacked the enemy that you were locked on to (and it's why the Souls game have it too). The lock on also allowed the player to perform a wider base set of moves that revolved around the lock on. DmC removing lock on lowered its precision and lowered the amount of options available and they had to compensate by making core DMC moves be mapped to a separate button.

Also because core moves like Stinger were done with lock on, DmC had to make a convoluted move input which required double direction input which in these games is a big no no because it's more imprecision. Double input is objectively slower and more convoluted than a single input.

Finally removal of lock on meant that you couldn't see enemy HP bars. This was a quality of life thing.

(They added lock on in DmC DE and allowed Stinger to be used in the single direction input method. Also added HP bars on lock on)


Two buttons for Dodge

Because lock on was removed, they were left with a free button. Instead of putting in a different feature on that button, they just had it be a second dodge button which is identical to the first dodge button. This was a redundant feature and DMC games pride themselves in effecient usage of the controller.

(They replaced the 2nd dodge button with lock on in DmC)


Style system was broken, easy to exploit

Another core aspect of the DMC series was the style system. These games aren't just about killing demons, it's about doing so in style. The style bar is a mechanic built into the game for that purpose. If there isn't incentive to mix up moves then the whole battle system falls apart. DmC's original style system was easy to rank up and worst of all didn't decay below S rank even if you just stood there. This allowed players to farm points for rankings by just shooting enemies to death... very boring game play. It's like trying to play a Tony Hawk game and no matter what you do you will keep getting multipliers and never drop your tricks in the game.

(Style system was completely revamped in DmC and then they added Hardcore mode where the Style meter adhered even closer to the original series)


Difficulty neutered especially at higher difficulties

Barrier to entry for DMC games have been getter lowered over time for the starting modes but at their hardest levels they were still hard games. Without harder content, your options are meaningless if you can don't learn to use them properly. DmC on the other hand added hardly any challenge on the higher difficulties mostly because the scaling was pretty low and there were many easy to exploit mechanics in the game. Bosses were always pretty easy, mostly just damage sponge with very easy to avoid moves. Last boss was a joke if you figured out the gimmick.

(Added more difficulty modifiers in DmC to make it much harder at the top end and even starting out if you wanted. Made the final boss an actual challenge)


Easy to exploit new mechanics

There were 3-4 very easy to exploit mechanics. One was the Demon dodge system which gave you an absurd damage boost for just dodging well. Another was the Parry mechanic that allowed you to disarm enemies on a successful parry. And then there was the a Devil Trigger which was like a win button as it lifted all enemies and gave you absurd damage bonuses. Finally, you had the Arbiter Trinity Smash move aka the boss killer. If you stacked all these mechanics then you end up trivializing all content in the game. You can kill bosses in SECONDS. You can make an enemy encounter a joke by just pulling out Osiris and spinning your scythe to auto parry any attack with 0 timing. This resulted in a very tepid action game for fans of the genre.. bring out Osiris for auto parry, stack damage modifiers and just win. Worst of all the Style ranking didn't punish this playstyle but instead rewarded you even more!

(All of these exploits were nerfed in DmC DE)


Non existent gravity on moves

DMC games always had exaggerated gravity but it did have some. It's a very subtle difference that really differentiates the air combat in DMC games vs DmC. In short it just means that you can spam Rake in air DmC and never come down to the ground. In previous DMC games attacking in air slows down your fall but doesn't stop you in the air. This made air combat have a sense of urgency in the previous games and had an element of skill to them which was all but gone on DmC.

(They didn't really change this in DmC DE but moves that allowed you to go way high into the sky were nerfed)


Red/Blue color coated enemies

DMC games are about combat freedom. You are free to use whatever combat option you want to take down an enemy as long as you do it in style. Red/blur coated enemies spit in the face of that. The game forced you to use specific weapons against specific enemies and interrupted your combat flow if you tried something different. This made encounters against these types of enemies very one note and boring.

(They fixed this in DmC DE by allowing you to attack any enemy with off color weapons but they did less damage and had no hit stun. It wasn't an ideal change but it way better than before)



Most of these issues were figured out during play tests and when they released the demo. Game had more issues at the start. This is where the backlash went extreme. Thankfully the NT team fixed these issues and a lot more in DmC DE but by then it was too late, damage was done. They of course can't fix stuff like art style and writing.

As much as DmC DE fixed, there were still more issues with the game that remained but at the very least the changes made so that it ended up being a very good action game overall. However, if NT had released DmC DE as the actual game then A LOT of the backlash would've been avoided.
 
:( That's a lot of words that he won't bother to read.

I'm starting to think he is this guy

GFx6DXP.jpg


He told me it was ok for Mario to become one of the Jeffersons in future iterations (because art) and so he wouldn't be a hypocrite for being ok with this guy making Dante in his own image.
 

Kamina777

Banned
Capcom catering to a demograpghic that weren't fans of the original series to begin with (ultimately more edgey arthouse hipster than fratboy in my opinion )

the severely dumbed down mechanics

The dev calling original dante "uncool" while pitching a design with the same haircut and necklace as himself.

what took the game off my radar was the director taking a long drag on his cigarette and excaliming he doesn't care when asked about the reservations some people had with the changes they made with lore and character.


The game was made as a fuck you to the fans of the originals before it, its no surprise that people who weren't even fans of devil may cry or any of its other parts find DmC so great.
 

Iorv3th

Member
So what is it besides the haircut to disagree with?

You need to teach a class on trolling at your local university.

This thread is 13 pages long and you have refused to read any of the reasons why anyone disliked the character. (You probably did read it but are having more fun with this hair narrative).
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
So what is it besides the haircut to disagree with?

I'm sorry, but I don't have time to repeat myself from my previous "illegible" post. Feel free to read Sephzilla or DahBomb posts above for more information, but the backlash wasn't just about hair. And the backlash also isn't simple illogical reactionary protest. That was probably a good majority of the first wave of backlash after the initial teaser, but it began to peter out up to and after the release.

I'll add that backlash in this case was a multi staged process, because you saw this shift of backlash from visual design->gameplay and visual design-> mostly gameplay as the game went from development->release->post release. This is natural because the feedback was arising out what was publicly available at any given time. People might still have issues with the visual design, but recognize that there are folks out there who like it. That's not the heart of the argument or the backlash anymore because there are bigger gameplay and design issues to address.
 
Capcom catering to a demograpghic that weren't fans of the original series to begin with (ultimately more edgey arthouse hipster than fratboy in my opinion )

the severely dumbed down mechanics

The dev calling original dante "uncool" while pitching a design with the same haircut and necklace as himself.

what took the game off my radar was the director taking a long drag on his cigarette and excaliming he doesn't care when asked about the reservations some people had with the changes they made with lore and character.


The game was made as a fuck you to the fans of the originals before it, its no surprise that people who weren't even fans of devil may cry or any of its other parts find DmC so great.

The funny thing is the game ended up being great by shifting back to being like the old games.

It was supposed to be a reboot...a new direction, but the new direction swerved back to same direction with a slightly dumbed down gameplay, with a new coat of paint.
 

gafneo

Banned
First of all I would like to say that DmC DE is a good overall action game and better than 90% of games in its genre. This genre is already niche so trying to dogpile each game while propping another doesn't really help the genre much. People like DmC over DMC and that's perfectly fine of course. No one is berating another person for liking DmC.

The DMC fans just don't like being generalized by statements like "they don't like change so they are bitter" or "it's just about the white hair Dante". It's reductive discussion and uses scapegoats and strawmen as arguments. It's drive by post drivel. "Oh that one dude on youtube complained about DmC, yup must be a DMC fanboy who is bitter by the changes and hair". Just like I am sure DmC fans don't like being generalized as NT/Western dev apologists.

Now as to why the original game got its backlash, I am just going to focus on the game play changes. Stuff like character designs, art, soundtrack, writing are extremely subjective and in those categories they are just changes and hard to argue if they are changes for the worst or not (just different). I am also not going to talk about the PR failure related to the game. Game play changes are easier to quantify and compare. Here are but SOME of the changes DmC made to the original series that were perceived as worse changes:

Framerate changed from 60 FPS to 30 FPS

The series was always 60 FPS and for good reason, it was a series known for tight, responsive and fluid game play. DmC the original release on consoles didn't feature that and felt worse for it.

(They fixed this for DMC DE so now even on consoles DmC is 60 FPS)


Removal of lock on

This was another series staple and gave DMC its identity (over say stuff like GoW and Ninja Gaiden). The lock on is what gave DMC that precise feel in combat as you always attacked the enemy that you were locked on to (and it's why the Souls game have it too). The lock on also allowed the player to perform a wider base set of moves that revolved around the lock on. DmC removing lock on lowered its precision and lowered the amount of options available and they had to compensate by making core DMC moves be mapped to a separate button.

Also because core moves like Stinger were done with lock on, DmC had to make a convoluted move input which required double direction input which in these games is a big no no because it's more imprecision. Double input is objectively slower and more convoluted than a single input.

Finally removal of lock on meant that you couldn't see enemy HP bars. This was a quality of life thing.

(They added lock on in DmC DE and allowed Stinger to be used in the single direction input method. Also added HP bars on lock on)


Two buttons for Dodge

Because lock on was removed, they were left with a free button. Instead of putting in a different feature on that button, they just had it be a second dodge button which is identical to the first dodge button. This was a redundant feature and DMC games pride themselves in effecient usage of the controller.

(They replaced the 2nd dodge button with lock on in DmC)


Style system was broken, easy to exploit

Another core aspect of the DMC series was the style system. These games aren't just about killing demons, it's about doing so in style. The style bar is a mechanic built into the game for that purpose. If there isn't incentive to mix up moves then the whole battle system falls apart. DmC's original style system was easy to rank up and worst of all didn't decay below S rank even if you just stood there. This allowed players to farm points for rankings by just shooting enemies to death... very boring game play. It's like trying to play a Tony Hawk game and no matter what you do you will keep getting multipliers and never drop your tricks in the game.

(Style system was completely revamped in DmC and then they added Hardcore mode where the Style meter adhered even closer to the original series)


Difficulty neutered especially at higher difficulties

Barrier to entry for DMC games have been getter lowered over time for the starting modes but at their hardest levels they were still hard games. Without harder content, your options are meaningless if you can don't learn to use them properly. DmC on the other hand added hardly any challenge on the higher difficulties mostly because the scaling was pretty low and there were many easy to exploit mechanics in the game. Bosses were always pretty easy, mostly just damage sponge with very easy to avoid moves. Last boss was a joke if you figured out the gimmick.

(Added more difficulty modifiers in DmC to make it much harder at the top end and even starting out if you wanted. Made the final boss an actual challenge)


Easy to exploit new mechanics

There were 3-4 very easy to exploit mechanics. One was the Demon dodge system which gave you an absurd damage boost for just dodging well. Another was the Parry mechanic that allowed you to disarm enemies on a successful parry. And then there was the a Devil Trigger which was like a win button as it lifted all enemies and gave you absurd damage bonuses. Finally, you had the Arbiter Trinity Smash move aka the boss killer. If you stacked all these mechanics then you end up trivializing all content in the game. You can kill bosses in SECONDS. You can make an enemy encounter a joke by just pulling out Osiris and spinning your scythe to auto parry any attack with 0 timing. This resulted in a very tepid action game for fans of the genre.. bring out Osiris for auto parry, stack damage modifiers and just win. Worst of all the Style ranking didn't punish this playstyle but instead rewarded you even more!

(All of these exploits were nerfed in DmC DE)


Non existent gravity on moves

DMC games always had exaggerated gravity but it did have some. It's a very subtle difference that really differentiates the air combat in DMC games vs DmC. In short it just means that you can spam Rake in air DmC and never come down to the ground. In previous DMC games attacking in air slows down your fall but doesn't stop you in the air. This made air combat have a sense of urgency in the previous games and had an element of skill to them which was all but gone on DmC.

(They didn't really change this in DmC DE but moves that allowed you to go way high into the sky were nerfed)


Red/Blue color coated enemies

DMC games are about combat freedom. You are free to use whatever combat option you want to take down an enemy as long as you do it in style. Red/blur coated enemies spit in the face of that. The game forced you to use specific weapons against specific enemies and interrupted your combat flow if you tried something different. This made encounters against these types of enemies very one note and boring.

(They fixed this in DmC DE by allowing you to attack any enemy with off color weapons but they did less damage and had no hit stun. It wasn't an ideal change but it way better than before)



Most of these issues were figured out during play tests and when they released the demo. Game had more issues at the start. This is where the backlash went extreme. Thankfully the NT team fixed these issues and a lot more in DmC DE but by then it was too late, damage was done. They of course can't fix stuff like art style and writing.

As much as DmC DE fixed, there were still more issues with the game that remained but at the very least the changes made so that it ended up being a very good action game overall. However, if NT had released DmC DE as the actual game then A LOT of the backlash would've been avoided.
I think 30fps is always going to be a consideration because new graphical advancements are a toss up.

As for difficulty, style meters, lock ons, dodge controls, red or blue enemies, all these were design choices. Some of which are sacrificed in favour of balancing issues. Maybe since this time DMC had a full 3D cam, they thought it was no nead for a lock on. People bitch about lock on being an easy excuse to dumb down combat. I don't mind it personally because I like to tinker with the settings using either or. DMC2 is probably the most badass Dante to control. I don't think NT were trying to copy every trade mark feature made by the series creator. As artists they want to experiment. DMC RE guy is doing the same type of thing in Bayonetta. That is your game if you like that style. NT isn't Platnum. You have to respect new ideas because sometimes they are for the better. One moment you want to have a less wacky shooting Dante, other days you want over the top Manga. Now we live in a bettet world because we have both.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Those things were design choices that they realized were bad and went back to change them. That's the point. And those things wouldn't have been put at the forefront if there was no backlash to begin with.

There's a big difference between Kamiya experimenting with Bayonetta and NT experimenting with DMC. Bayo is a different IP from DMC and has markedly different expectations. If you put on the DMC name then certain expectations have to be met or you lose your core audience. This isn't a DMC exclusive thing, it applies to pretty much every other IP.

And DMC gets experimented on with every single game. All 5 games are very different from one another. The fanbase is used to change by now even though every time there is some moaning over it like when they showed off Dante in DMC3. Yes folks, there was heavy backlash over DMC3 Dante, you can ask Ruben Langdon ("please give Dante a shirt!"). People got over it because the game was great for them.
 
Please. The backlash was embedded with the first proposed design, and before any information on mechanics were even discussed. The only reality distortion going on is with fans of the original DMC and Dante trying to pass off the corniness of shit like "dark soul with LIIIIIGHT" as intentional tongue and cheek.
People had played Heavenly Sword and Enslaved and that was a perfectly valid reason to distrust NT's ability to deliver solid gameplay. DmC ended up blowing their previous shitty games out of the water with regard to gameplay even though it's still got some flaws worth talking about.
 

gafneo

Banned
Those things were design choices that they realized were bad and went back to change them. That's the point. And those things wouldn't have been put at the forefront if there was no backlash to begin with.

There's a big difference between Kamiya experimenting with Bayonetta and NT experimenting with DMC. Bayo is a different IP from DMC and has markedly different expectations. If you put on the DMC name then certain expectations have to be met or you lose your core audience. This isn't a DMC exclusive thing, it applies to pretty much every other IP.

And DMC gets experimented on with every single game. All 5 games are very different from one another. The fanbase is used to change by now even though every time there is some moaning over it like when they showed off Dante in DMC3. Yes folks, there was heavy backlash over DMC3 Dante, you can ask Ruben Langdon ("please give Dante a shirt!"). People got over it because the game was great for them.

The thing about fans is they know a sequel or reboot will have changes. This is a personal problem I have. Fans are too damandi. NT probably felt victum to the fans outcry and gave in. Fans kill off way too many origional ideas it isn't funny. I want to see fans welcome change for once. They feel glad that they got tweaks, but it made a nightmare for Capcom. Possibly killing off a new DMC by NT.
 
Top Bottom