Is such a thing even possible?
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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
jeff_rigby
Banned
So how will Version 2 disks (UHD) game disks work? Two versions of the game, one for the Launch XB1 and one or the Slim and Scorpio? Same questions for PS4 Launch, 2015 "C" version and Neo? Sony and Microsoft are saying that no version of a game can be made that doesn't run on both the PS4 Launch and Neo. Are you now going to tell me there won't be a Version 2 disk for games?
Scorpio 4k game assets can be huge requiring more than 50GB, NEO games have to include both Launch and NEO runtime especially the assets. So two or three disks for a game rather than one version 2 disk? Sony and Microsoft have to have known that the new iterations NEO and Scorpio were going to create massive games that would need larger disks.
Why have a category for them now? .
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/content-protection/content-protection-rom4.php said:
The above covers all UHD media with HDR right?http://atsc.org/newsletter/high-dynamic-range-planned-for-atsc-3-0/ said:
This can't be quoted enough. I have no idea why this thread isn't locked yet.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes.
Two reasons:
It's magical.
And there's enough confusing looking data to make people scratch their heads and be unsure.
Adam Tyner
Member
It doesn't sound like there will be any. Downloads of higher quality assets are an obvious probability; we've already seen that this gen with Xenoblade Chronicles X. The inability to fit all of a game's content onto a single disc didn't stop Halo: The Master Chief Collection either, to name another recent example. Downloads were the solution there as well.
Remember, the Xbox One and PS4 only use a game disc for the initial install and subsequent authentication; the content on the disc only matters so much.
You said HDR is currently part of THE Ultra HD standard. Quote from THE Ultra HD standard docs where it mandates HDR support. This is something that would encompass streaming, broadcast, downloads, optical media, etc., so don't reference documents for individual standards like UHD BD, UHD Premium, or ATSC. Maybe such a document does exist, but I've never heard of it.
You make it sound like HDR has always been a part of Ultra HD and certain displays were just coming up short, but that's not the case at all. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, and in any event, it's not important enough to this discussion to get overly hung up on semantics.
There won't be any! There won't be any until game support for the original Xbox One is coming to an end. Developers will have to make do with what they have. That's my take on it anyway.
They want to sell new products. They are not going to produce drives compatible with a non-finalized format years before it is even put to use. They don't have two lines, they have one: Standard BD drives. And when UHD hits you simply drop that and make one for those. Or maybe they don't? Maybe it IS cheaper to make normal drives, who knows.
That's not what I meant by PlayStation Type C.
I was referring to rumors in the late 1990s about a PS1 with more RAM and/or VRAM and a quad speed CD drive. The extra RAM was supposed to be there so Namco could port Tekken 3 to the home without downgraded graphics and animation.(although in reality that would've also required the 1.5x faster CPU that the arcade board had).
There would also be a separate RAM upgrade unit for existing PS1 consoles, even though they'd still be stuck the 2x speed CD drive. Other games would also take advantage of the Type C upgrade aside from Tekken 3. The thing was that older PS1 games were not programmed with Type C code so wouldn't load faster.
Electronic Gaming Monthly and IGN were among the sources of this rumor, although other mags and other websites reported it as well. There was also much discussion in various places on the internet in '97.
Obviously, tt never panned out. Here is some of the rumored info from the time.
http://www.ign.com/articles/1997/02/28/new-information-on-the-playstation-c
It was either BS, or Sony just kept in in R&D. Either way, it never happened. Namco's port of Tekken 3 was great, but still a downgrade from the System 12 arcade.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Why is this still going?
jeff_rigby
Banned
1) Because it's possible and a good subject for debate.
2) Information, hopefully of interest, is being brought to the thread and being discussed
3) UHD blu-ray like HD in the past uses the same software stack that will come with ATSC 3.0 and for HD Blu-ray was supposed to come for ATSC 2.0.
4) UHD blu-ray provides 4K media for the new 4K TVs like HD did for 1080P TVs, Sites like Netflix couldn't do 1080P justice until recently and won't be able to do justice to 4K for years to come.
5) UHD capable brings with it standards for delivery and DRM that all media will use regardless of resolution. The Launch XB1 and PS4 as UHD Capable are designed with this in mind.
6) The papers I have read and cited indicate the game consoles are designed and will implement UHD blu-ray with digital bridge, Playready ND, DVR, Vidipath, Video chat, Miracast, Browser VR, ATSC 3 Antenna TV, ATSC 3.0 VR, The FCC's DSTAC Downloadable security scheme with apps written by the manufacturer, OpenVX and more. As has been pointed out implementation is not guaranteed so this is worthy of debate also.
1) Because jeff_rigby can't let go
2) Because jeff_rigby can't let go
3) Because jeff_rigby can't let go
4) Because jeff_rigby can't let go
5) Because jeff_rigby can't let go
6) Because jeff_rigby can't let go
I'm afraid it's not Jeff. Not talking about PlayStation 4, although I am fairly confident it's not either.
Thing is, we can talk about the technology till we're blue in the face (no pun intended) but the existing Xbox One simply can't read or display the denser data on a true 4k Blu Ray. There are actually dozens of reasons why, from optics to electronics to standards.
Now there's an unlikely pathway for BOTH systems to maybe output a 4K video stream, but even that is nontrivial and likely won't happen since it would still need more than mere firmware changes.
And even if we ignore the tech, why wouldn't either company have added the upgrade as a competitive advantage? Both fight tooth and nail for advantages over the other in the marketplace. 4k would be and IS a big bullet item for this audience.
And why would Samsung's (very simple, lightly featured) standalone player be $400 and sitting moribund in stores because of lack of demand? And why would the movie companies not BEG for this upgrade path to be true, so they could take a tiny niche 4k disc business and make it instantly mainstream?
Captain Zyrain
Member
Not going to lie, I wanted this thread to be real. I'd love UHD playback on my Xbox One. It's gonna be a big selling point for me to switch to an Xbox One S though.
So, knowing my luck, as soon as I upgrade, they'll say "SURPRISE! IT REALLY WAS BUILT IN ALL ALONG! MAGIC!"
So, knowing my luck, as soon as I upgrade, they'll say "SURPRISE! IT REALLY WAS BUILT IN ALL ALONG! MAGIC!"
Read what stinkles said.
Captain Zyrain
Member
That's why I said "MAGIC!" Cause I know it's not going to really happen, but I also have the worst luck.
Marty Chinn
Member
Man, you've really asked for it now. He's going to throw so many white papers at you showing how it's all connected. You done fucked up with this post.
jeff_rigby
Banned
If you followed the discussion on reading version 2 disks, It's about the shorter mark length creating reliability issues requiring a firmware update or more powerful DSP and firmware update. BLu-ray drives that can read at the maximum USB 2 speed of 8X MUST HAVE a more powerful DSP on board than the 4X drives on the market in 2010 or they wouldn't be able to read a data stream at 8X speed.
Cerny stated the PS4 Southbridge contained a ARM Trustzone CPU. Almost always a Trustzone CPU has cryptography accelerators on the AXI bus. For the launch XB1 the project was called Kryptos and if you look that up, it's about encryption. Again, the Launch XB1 and PS4 are offically UHD Capable which requires something like a Trustzone TEE. If you read the content owners (Movies) requirements for 4K DRM, it requires a trusted boot, trusted execution environment where HDCP 2.2 takes place in the TEE. BD+, AACS2, Player, and codec must also take place in the TEE with HDCP 2.2 mapped to the HDMI port. For both the XB1 and PS4 with HDCP 2.2 taking place in the TEE, the HDMI port just has to support the timing required by HDMI 2 and pass negotiation to the HDCP 2.2 routine running in the TEE. This requirement for UHD media is for all UHD media and will also soon apply to HD (1080P) media.
UHD Media uses HTML5.0 for the UI (Finalized 2014) and HTML5 <video> MSE EME which is still not finalized. For Open platforms that support UHD, they have to wait till the APIs are published as a candidate status and free to use. PCs and the game consoles are going to be open platforms which is now possible due to embedded DRM. Because they will be open platforms they can no longer use Playready 2 which is just hidden inside the app, when the PS3, XB1 and PS4 get firmware updates allowing external drives, file save and copy etc.
The Launch XB1 and PS4 OS have an OS created in 2012 and updated for game features and will need a nearly complete rewrite of their core to support embedded DRM while the XB1 Slim is using a OS recently written that already includes embedded DRM. Netflix is still 1.1 GB to hide the DRM in the app and does not use an embedded Playready DRM on the PS4, and this is for HD (1080P).
Adam Tyner
Member
My challenge to you: support this statement without referencing quotes from 2013 and without referencing those vague and very likely aren't-telling-the-grand-story-you-think-they-are EU power consumption letters.
Don't tell me what you think will happen. You said "official", so show me something directly from Microsoft or Sony. I'd even be interested in a credible leak or rumor. If the EU power letters are the only things you can point to over the past couple of years, then (at least to my mind) you have nothing.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The 2015 version of the PS4 HAS NO issues brought up by anyone to not support UHD Blu-ray and everyone ignores that. It was the revision that the Forbes article said would support Netflix UHD. Why do you ignore this? It has also not been firmware updated but should have the drive to support UHD BLu-ray if that drive is, as many suggest, only available after the BDA published the UHD Blu-ray requirements.
You and others believe a marketing show that states the XB1 slim will be the first console to support UHD BLu-ray means the earlier version won't. What it really means is that the XB1 slim will be the first console to support UHD blu-ray because it has an OS that will not have to be firmware updated. The other earlier consoles will need a update of the core using APIs from the ARM block for ooVoo, Netflix and all apps, the browser with HTML5<video> support and more.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=916219 which is confirmed by the HEVC profile 10 supported by Microsoft June 2015. By the MS VP stating the XB1 hardware supports UHD Blu-ray, A Sony representative at a Home Theatre 4K projection TV show stating the PS4 supports HDMI 2 then the 2 letters which you dismiss.
1) Trustzone support by AMD, Microsoft and Sony,
2) Playready porting kit 3 for the PS4 which requires Trustzone and HDCP 2..2/HDMI2.
3) HEVC Profile 10 for the XB1 which will be used by all UHD media.
When you look for UHD support you look for the multiple requirements and when you see between the two (XB1 and PS4) all the requirements needed by UHD media from multiple sources and have two letters from two different organizations representing the same game consoles that confirm this you have multiple confirmations. To dismiss this is to set too high a bar.
Just as with the HTML5 coming to the PS3 thread, after a firmware update and UHD Media is supported on the Launch PS4 and XB1, we will have people saying Jeff, like a clock, is right two times a day. Look at the time it took to get a HTML5 webkit browser in the PS3 which started in 2007 then a javascript engine Oct 2010 and a HTML5 browser in 2012. Vita launched with the HTML5 browser at the same time the PS3 got it's HTML5 browser.
lol
There are no indications that they do. You can actually check the different drive parts floating around here. Maybe if you look hard enough you will find some secret sauce that makes them stand out enough to warrant something like stealth UHD support.
Well you just conceded.
Even if that were the only hardware item, and it's not, that would be the end of it .
You are now Tim Langdell to my Edge Magazine.
Xbox, Record that.
Adam Tyner
Member
I've tried explaining this to you before, but it obviously didn't take. (Funny that you accuse other people of ignoring certain things when this particular point has been brought up repeatedly and been ignored by you.) Here's another approach:
Which of these consoles can play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs?
(a) the first PS4
(b) the second PS4
(c) both
(d) neither
Now do you get it?
I remember years ago seeing Blu-ray discs with a sticker on the shrinkwrap reading something to the effect of "Compatible with your PlayStation 3!" How would this work with your outlandish theory? "Compatible with your PlayStation 4 CUH-1200 with the 'C-Chassis'! If you don't know what model you have, look at the first three characters of the serial number and blah blah blah" Maybe the packaging could ask users if it has a purely matte finish or if there's any gloss since the CUH-1200 took that away. That'll be clearer! (That also means I just gave away the answer to my opening question, but it was rhetorical anyway.)
It's nonsense. If there's not a clear point of delineation -- and, no, there is essentially none with the 2015 revision -- you can't introduce a feature like that. How would people possibly know if their specific PS4 is compatible or not? Even if Sony were to broadcast a message to owners of those particular units to let them know, that'd sow a great deal of confusion. Something like the Xbox One S or the PS4 Neo (whatever it's ultimately called) makes this much clearer and more straightforward.
Then you get into the other obvious issue (which I've mentioned before and again went ignored). Ito suggested that a new model of PS4 would have a dedicated HEVC decoder. Even if it were technically possible for the 2015 version to have its resources rejiggered to permit the level of HEVC decoding that UHD BD demands, that'd require Sony to create/handle/maintain two different methods of HEVC decoding, depending on the hardware at play. How is this worth Sony's time or resources?
Which of these sounds more likely to you?
1) Rigby-logic: there are multiple versions of the PS4 on the market which are all but indistinguishable from one another. A certain percentage of these can play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs while the majority cannot, and there's not a great way for anyone to know which side of that fence they fall on. Sony will later release a new model of PS4 (currently codenamed Neo) with marketing clearly emphasizing Ultra HD Blu-ray playback and perhaps even UHD gameplay, much as Microsoft is doing with the Xbox One S and Scorpio, although that'd result in duplicating engineering efforts and confused marketing. ("Look at this cool thing our new hardware can do! I mean, our old PS4 can do it now too, but only our new-old hardware, not our old-old PS4.")
2) Common sense: even if a certain revision of the PS4 could be made capable of Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, Sony groups all PS4s into "before Neo" and "Neo". Neo is engineered with Ultra HD playback as a key component. By not having to go to great lengths to develop UHD BD playback for a specific PS4 revision, that streamlines engineering efforts, and it streamlines marketing efforts as well. (Old = HD. New = UHD!)
Yet again, we don't actually know that the 2015 revision is even capable of what you're claiming. You think it is, but it wasn't that long ago that you thought every other version was too.
Let's reference the quote in question:
Hmmm, that doesn't seem to jive with what you were saying about HDR earlier.
Let's also quote Forbes' followup:
"Netflix believes" is a long way from "said it would support Netflix UHD".
1) Netflix predicted that there would be hardware refreshes allowing for UHD content before the end of 2015. This obviously indicates that Netflix doesn't believe it's possible with previous versions of the hardware. We didn't get any UHD-capable apps for the revised PS4 either or the Xbox One.
2) Netflix talked with Sony about UHD-capable hardware, but for all we know, Sony was talking about the Neo for 2016/'17 while Netflix was assuming it was for the 2015 refresh. There isn't enough information to say for certain one way or the other.
3) Virtually every recently released UHD TV already has an app to stream Netflix in UHD. If the PS4 and/or Xbox One has it too, you're basically just providing users an alternate way of doing something they can already do right now. In fact, since UHD TV owners can access Netflix content in UHD right this minute, you'd have to "train" them to do it a different way on the PS4/XB1 to potentially no real benefit. Remember, Netflix has been streaming UHD content through other means since April 2014 -- more than two years!
4) Again, common sense, assuming what you're saying were even to come to pass. If I'm on a PS4 with Netflix, I can watch whatever I want regardless. If the system is capable, stream it in UHD. If it's not, stream it in HD. Either way, that content is streaming. The shaky Rigby-logic of a PS4 Wonka Bar having the UHD golden ticket means that I could buy a movie on Ultra HD Blu-ray and have it not play at all. One is a good user experience; what you're expecting is on the complete opposite end of that spectrum.
The first Xbox One S hits stores in August. You're insistent that the firmware update to allow UHD BD playback will be released in the first two weeks of October -- just two months apart! Since there are three S SKUs, the releases of which are staggered, that means in all likelihood, your magic firmware upgrade would be released before all of the S models are even on the market! If the firmware update is being kept under wraps by marketing yet launches before all of the S models are even available for purchase...I mean, the logic doesn't add up.
From a marketing standpoint, there's more to be gained by not having this firmware update at all, assuming it's technically possible in the first place. This is something myself and others have brought up many, many times.
I don't dismiss the letters; just the extreme significance you place upon them and how virtually nothing you're suggesting are in the letters are actually to be found within them. Nowhere do they actually say that every version of every console would be updated by January 2016 to allow Ultra HD Blu-ray playback as you've been claiming. When are we going to get revised documents since Sony/Microsoft failed to make those targets (claims that seemingly only you think were being made)? Those documents also refer to the PS4/Xbox One as being UHD capable in 2013, and that sure didn't happen. For crying out loud, the EU docs define Ultra HD as "having potential of rendering video output with resolutions greater or equal to 4Kx2K (3840 pixels x 2160)". They're not referencing a standard like you believe they are; they just say "video" and "at least this resolution". They don't even have to do play video at that resolution; just "have the potential" of pushing it out.
It's funny that this is a thread titled "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013". and the goalposts have instead been moved to "well, there's the 2015 revision of the PS4, maybe!" and "but what about Netflix?"
Stinkles has categorically stated that the original X1 cannot support UHD BDs and is in a position to definitively say as much because he works at Microsoft. I hope you realise that you're asserting a Microsoft Game Studios employee is wrong about the optical media playback capability of a Microsoft video game console and, to be frank, understand how absurd that is given your evidence to the contrary is peripheral at best.
Adam Tyner
Member
He's in good company. Jeff also called Masayasu Ito (the Sony EVP who leads the PlayStation hardware group) a liar when he said the PS4's optical drive couldn't read Ultra HD Blu-ray discs.
I appreciate the time you spend on this. Jeff's reasoning is so intentionally confusing that I gave up long ago. He is wrong many times, too, and tries to spin words that it is sometimes embarrassing to read.
That said, Matt and stinkles both said he is wrong so I don't know why a mod didn't lock this thread already.
jeff_rigby
Banned
He is stating other issues too which makes him wrong about UHD Streaming support which crosses him off as an authority. Is this only about UHD Blu-ray or UHD media in general? The XB1 Launch has a Software accelerated HEVC codec.
You must start with the understanding that Media sales and rental (includes games) as well as services, not the sale of consoles, are the profit centers Microsoft and Sony are moving toward; the same for Windows 10. For example, DVR or ATSC 3 support needs a E-Guide that they can charge an on-going fee for. Both Microsoft and Sony have signed with a company that provides this. Microsoft's DVR for the XB1, now on hold, was to support 1080P which means it was designed with ATSC 3 in mind and/or DVB T2 with Mpeg4 in the EU which is now starting to use HEVC in Germany.
What do the game consoles need to support Media? Trustzone TEE, Xtensa accelerators for codecs, HDCP2.2 and a HDMI with clocks to support HDMI2. A drive that supports the 2010 iMLSE that BDXL from 2010 supports.
In order of difficulty to implement:
1) HEVC which required Hardware (Xtensa accelerators) and Software engineers with an understanding of the requirements needed then implementation to test with an eye to features that would be needed. HEVC was finalized in 2013 Both Sony and Microsoft had posted jobs for such a Software engineer in early 2012. Xtensa IVP was available to "Partners" in 2012. Microsoft had test beds with HEVC multi-view running before the XB1 launch.
2) HDMI chip with pass through to HDCP2.2 in the TEE to allow mapping HDCP2.2 to the HDMI chip. HDCP 2.2 was developed in 2012 for ARM and used for Miracast. HDCP2.2 was mapped to the HDMI port and published specs were available Feb 2013.
3) HD blu-ray drive with more powerful DSP to support (2010) iMLSE which should be available in USB drives that are 8X.
4) A complete HTML5 browser with W3C extensions for TV
5) Playready, WMDRM
Remember we have custom designed Game consoles, designed to support everything Microsoft and Sony think is coming. This is a 20 year vision and in the 2006 Hot chip video on who owns the living room the only platform discussed was game consoles. This video was NDA'd till two years ago.
HEVC was by far the hardest to support from both a software and hardware point of view. AMD probably pointed everyone to Xtensa accelerators because they determined it was the best for both Vision processing and Codecs.
1) Microsoft already supports HEVC profile 10 in the Launch XB1. Both consoles have a separate block of GPGPU mentioned by Eurogamer which is likely the Xtensa accelerators.
5) Sony's Intellectual notice has Playready and WMDRM. Microsoft wrote them.
4) Both consoles have a HTML5 browser.
2) only requires a HDMI chip with pass through that supports the HDMI 2 timings as both Consoles have a ARM trustzone TEE. Sony has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip as does Microsoft from Cadence.
3) This should be the easiest with the largest lead time and considering the effort to support HEVC would Microsoft and Sony not contract for a drive that could support the 2010 iMLSE or make one themselves (the Sony blu-ray drive board is made by Sony while the XB1 uses a third party drive. Both are encryption key paired to the Trustzone TEE and Player same as the PS3). The HD player requires the same DRM schemes the UHD player requires but UHD requires they run in the TEE and are more robust; TEE and changes to correct exploits already found and register changes to insure the HD player can't play the UHD media if they are both in the same player (UHD players are backwardly compatible with HD players).
The last generation went on longer than wanted as everyone was waiting till UHD media support was possible and they launched at the earliest possible date which was Nov 2013 as you can see from the above.
Ah, so we've entered the wilful ignorance phase ("I say he's wrong about this so he's also wrong about that."). I think this thread has served its purpose -- which seems to twist and contort whenever you feel as though you're being proven wrong -- long enough. I mean, at this point you're practically plugging your ears and saying "La-la-la-la, I can't hear you!", which means this thread has transmogrified from being potentially informative to genuinely misinformative. Not to be crude, but for someone who purports to be a stickler for the truth, you appear to have a hard time accepting it.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Is this the part where Jennifer Connelly finds all the unopened documents in the secret mailbox?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Please correctly quote me and Ito, Ito said the PS4 drive could not read three layers and there is no HEVC codec in the PS4. There is no HEVC codec in the PS4 until it's firmware updated but all BD drives can read three or more layers. There was no mention of Version 2 disk 33GB/layer. The BD-ROM drive will require a firmware update in any case.
Only because Ito said the PS4 drive can't read three layers did I dismiss what he said. Again for the PS4 to be UHD Capable it must support a HEVC codec and the XB1 does that now. As I have said before to dismiss the PS4 doing the same is to have the Xb1 supporting UHD media and the PS4 not able to do so when Sony has said that UHD is their way back to profitability.
jeff_rigby
Banned
When you quote someone as an authority because of his working for the company in question you must vet him. He could be a salesman or janitor.
In the last two pages only horkrux has pointed out a flaw in my cites that I had covered but dropped after the first page. The articles quoting only a Firmware update needed to support iMLSE were likely guessing. This is obvious if you search for iMLSE and read the multiple articles but not if you only search for the Panasonic-Sony tweak.
Pot calling the kettle black ignoring the two letters saying the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable. One of those letters had the Third tier power level for Naviagation dropping 2017 which matches the date for Neo and Scorpio on 14nm FinFET. Are we to say Neo and Scorpio are not coming because the letter has no weight or does it confirm Neo and Scorpio which gives it weight.
What has been going back and forth is the weight to give to statements at launch that the XB1 has the hardware to support UHD blu-ray, the PS4 will support 4K media, the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port and letters from 2015 released in 2016 saying the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable. ALSO HEVC profile 10 (UHD support) by the XB1 June 2015. This UHD capable in the two letters could refer to the blu-ray drive also but I am conceding that is not specifically spelled out. What are the reasons to ignore the above? They amount to I don't think they say what you think they say against what we all know is that UHD media support is a priority for both Microsoft and Sony.
Adam Tyner
Member
How much of a fee does Microsoft stand to collect every time someone streams a UHD movie on Netflix? How much could Microsoft charge every time someone watches an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc on an Xbox One?
So you haven't been claiming that the 2013 launch consoles can play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs with a firmware update since page one? News to me!
You mean like this?
I feel like jeff_rigby just overwhelms people with technical documents and jargon from them that most people just back away and take his word for it. And then it turns out his knowledge is not much different from people seeing shapes in clouds or constellations and making prophecies from them.
We know who Stinkles is, in point of fact.
Actually, Tyner's already addressed the letters as they relate to your claims of retroactive UHD BD support, which you've yet to respond to.
I'm sure you know your stuff Jeff. The issue is, no one else has the faintest idea what even 1/27 of this means.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
So, the PS4/Xbox One were shipped with the ability to play 4K blu ray, like the original models in 2013? And all it requires is a firmware upgrade, is the crux of Jeff's argument? Cos that sounds a little mad.
jeff_rigby
Banned
So Stinkles is a software development manager and writer not involved with the hardware beyond he should have advance notice of the Slim and maybe Scorpio hardware as it relates to games not media. Microsoft LOCKED down interdepartmental communication to reduce leaks (this from insiders late 2012) and Sony is noted for their ability to keep secrets.
Actually Adam hasn't. He assumes the 2015 PS4 version won't support UHD because the 2013 doesn't and a hard break is necessary to not confuse consumers so UHD starts with the NEO and Scorpio while the XB1 Slim defeats his point. The Slim is Microsoft's 2015 refresh shipping in August 2016 rather than Nov 2015 because the refresh required a complete redesign of the APU while the Sony 2015 refresh was a move to Global foundries and Southbridge update which was easier and could happen sooner and cheaper.
He assumes UHD Game disks will never be released because of Sony and Microsoft restrictions on Game support for all versions of the XB1 and PS4. This BDA rule and listing covering UHD Game media disks make no sense if they only apply to the 2019 iteration or next generation console which will also be backwardly compatible and should also follow the same rules except for games designed to only run on the new console.
You guys fail to see these flaws for some reason and it's getting to the point that you are stretching reason while attributing this to me.
IF this is not the case please cite.
Adam Tyner
Member
It doesn't defeat my point because I've expressly said (repeatedly!) that the Neo, Xbox One S, and Scorpio are exactly the types of delineation that make sense! The Neo would be very clearly distinguishable from a vanilla PS4 -- visually, from a marketing perspective, etc. The same cannot be said for the 2015 PS4 revision.
I'm not saying "never"; I'm saying not for any game being released for the Xbox One or PS4. If early iterations of the XB1 or PS4 can't read the discs, you're making games incompatible with launch consoles to no benefit. Discs on these consoles honestly serve no purpose other than (1) giving collectors something to collect and (2) saving users from having to download the entire content of the game rather than just patches. Neither of these systems read from optical media during gameplay. UHD-capable users could start playing the game with the assets installed from the disc and download UHD-quality assets if desired. This isn't me reaching; this is a thing on PCs and has already started happening in the console realm as well. I've provided examples of those, although you decided not to acknowledge that either. Higher capacity discs don't mean much when it comes to gaming, and with the percentage of users eschewing physical media for games growing larger and larger, they're going to mean even less as time goes on.
I suspected you were going to play that card.
Actually, Tyner said that the Slim is in fact a good example of a hardware refresh that can afford -- from a consumer awareness perspective -- to have new features. Evidently he feels that it doesn't defeat his point.
Edit: Beaten by the man himself.
There won't be version 2, or 3, or 4, of game disks Jeff. Same as there wasn't a version 2 for PC games (oh wait, there isn't a version 1!).
As illustrated by Microsoft's "Play Anywhere" move, the industry is moving away from physical for games as fast as they can.
Sony will hold for a while longer, but they already made it very clear that games would be produced for PS4, with a "Neo" mode.
Either said mode will fit on disc, or it will be an optional download, that's all.
As illustrated by Microsoft's "Play Anywhere" move, the industry is moving away from physical for games as fast as they can.
Sony will hold for a while longer, but they already made it very clear that games would be produced for PS4, with a "Neo" mode.
Either said mode will fit on disc, or it will be an optional download, that's all.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The 2015 PS4 is a slim too just Sony started with a smaller case and hasn't changed the style or Size. For Consumer awareness you have to take into account the parent of an adolescent buying a game. Have you heard the term super idiot as it refers to consumers. Idiot proof is not enough when it comes to discerning between Launch XB1 and XB1 Slim. "Oh that's a smaller XB1." as the only difference seen by a non-gaming adult.
You also have to assume 2.5 to 3 years of Game console sales won't support UHD media and these consoles are as much about media as they are games, perhaps more so for the Slim and Launch XB1.
Well, I would presume it's named the Xbox One S rather than Slim for a particular reason -- because Apple has used the very same suffix among its iPhone line to denote a newer product.
Adam Tyner
Member
If borderline-no one can tell the difference between a vanilla PS4 that can play UHD BDs and a vanilla PS4 that can't, how does that do anyone any good?
No, they aren't. Microsoft has backed away hard from all its media media media media mantra. Sony has put far less effort into media features for the PS4 than it did for the PS3. I realize that you only see game consoles as media hubs and have zero interest in gaming (I'm not sure I've ever seen you post about a game you're excited about or something you're currently playing), but you're projecting.
There's nothing stopping people who really want UHD features from buying a UHD-capable console like the Neo or the S.