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NYT: Donald Trump Won't Follow NATO Charter, Defend Baltic States

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Mimosa97

Member
Putin is laughing all the way to the bank. His goal is to destroy the EU from the inside by massively backing up far-right political parties in Europe and disband NATO so that he can pretty much do whatever the fuck he wants in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East.

We have two dangerous despots today in the World. Erdogan and Putin. The first one wants to revive the ottoman empire and become caliph. The second one wants to revive the Soviet Union without the communist aspect and harvest what's left of the american hegemony.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Putin is laughing all the way to the bank. His goal is to destroy the EU from the inside by massively backing up far-right political parties in Europe and disband NATO so that he can pretty much do whatever the fuck he wants in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East.

We have two dangerous despots today in the World. Erdogan and Putin. The first one wants to revive the ottoman empire and become caliph. The second one wants to revive the Soviet Union without the communist aspect and harvest what's left of the american hegemony.

And the Nu Left. The Nu Left loves Putin.

While I don't fully agree with your analysis, the cult of Putin is a creepy, creepy thing that reaches an absurd amount of people.
 
Putin is laughing all the way to the bank. His goal is to destroy the EU from the inside by massively backing up far-right political parties in Europe and disband NATO so that he can pretty much do whatever the fuck he wants in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East.

We have two dangerous despots today in the World. Erdogan and Putin. The first one wants to revive the ottoman empire and become caliph. The second one wants to revive the Soviet Union without the communist aspect and harvest what's left of the american hegemony.

If this is such a dangerous situation as you put it, then why aren't NATO members spending the required 2% of GDP on military? Only 5 (predominantly small) members are paying their fair share. That's what Trump is pointing out. Not fair for the American taxpayer to entirely foot the bill.

Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. should be doing a lot more.
 

Xe4

Banned
My understanding is that there were always Russian troops at Sevastopol under a treaty. So not sure what you're talking about in terms of an invasion. And I'm not really interested in speculation of what would've happened under some other circumstances - that's irrelevant. I maintain that US and Russia are equally responsible for how this Ukraine situation began and how it's ended up since. I've talked about that a lot over the past couple years on GAF, so we don't even need to get into all that really.

Well, I'm literally talking about the annexation of Crimea, which everyone but Russia and Russian supporters agree was an invasion.

And I don't think the US and Russia played equal parts in thr Ukraine situation. The US supported peaceful protests going on in the country, while Russia supported the puppet government. After the puppet government was literally kicked back to Russia, they responded by engaging in hostilities in the eastern side of Ukraine. Seems pretty clear cut to me.
 

Kimawolf

Member
Why should America be beholden to Western or eastern Europe? We have our own problems to deal with not only in the U.S. but in South America, Africa as well.


Why can't western Europe handle their own shit? Every world problem should not involve the U.S. somehow being invoked for help, especially Western Europe. Why not just make a freaking EU military and then you'd not need us. Seems like the thinking is its just easier to let the U.S. Basically take the lead/financial support for a lot of it
 

Jonm1010

Banned
If this is such a dangerous situation as you put it, then why aren't NATO members spending the required 2% of GDP on military?
This is one of those questions that has a complex answer and frankly, above all else, says more about the person asking the question then it does anything else.

How exactly are you supposed to convince others your opinion is worth two shits if you are openly asking those same people to educate you about nuances within the relationship that you have failed to obtain youraelf? Not to mention while using that ignorance to inject your own assumptions in the blank space that the content you seek should of filled.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
If this is such a dangerous situation as you put it, then why aren't NATO members spending the required 2% of GDP on military? Only 5 (predominantly small) members are paying their fair share. That's what Trump is pointing out. Not fair for the American taxpayer to entirely foot the bill.

Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. should be doing a lot more.

France is doing a lot (and has been over the 2% for quite some time now).
Heck, they're like the only ones doing anything in the shitshow that is central Africa.
 
If this is such a dangerous situation as you put it, then why aren't NATO members spending the required 2% of GDP on military? Only 5 (predominantly small) members are paying their fair share. That's what Trump is pointing out. Not fair for the American taxpayer to entirely foot the bill.

Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. should be doing a lot more.

I believe in NATO and find the lack of military spending of its allies, including my home country, disgraceful. This is a legitimate concern and something that the US could address as a policy. It could find traction among the European political establishment and population if it's put in rational terms. For example, terrorism and ISIS are turning popular thinking around in the countries you mentioned.

However, this is not some measured policy position - this is Trump being his usual bullying self, making overblown statements from a position of sheer ignorance. Some NATO members feel genuinely threatened (with good reason) and suggesting that the next US president might just throw them to wolves out of spite is not helping anyone (except would-be usurpers.)
 
This is one of those questions that has a complex answer and frankly, above all else, says more about the person asking the question then it does anything else.

How exactly are you supposed to convince others your opinion is worth two shits if you are openly asking those same people to educate you about nuances within the relationship that you have failed to obtain youraelf? Not to mention while using that ignorance to inject your own assumptions in the blank space that the content you seek should of filled.

Dude. Stop it with the ad hominem. This is a very simple question. If NATO requires member countries to spend 2% of GDP, then why aren't they?

France is doing a lot (and has been over the 2% for quite some time now).
Heck, they're like the only ones doing anything in the shitshow that is central Africa.

Perhaps not France... data I saw put them at 1.8% I believe, but that's slightly outdated.
 
Why should America be beholden to Western or eastern Europe? We have our own problems to deal with not only in the U.S. but in South America, Africa as well.


Why can't western Europe handle their own shit? Every world problem should not involve the U.S. somehow being invoked for help, especially Western Europe. Why not just make a freaking EU military and then you'd not need us. Seems like the thinking is its just easier to let the U.S. Basically take the lead/financial support for a lot of it
With great power comes great responsibility. Isolationism is a fool's gambit.

Whether you, Trump, or anyone else likes it or not, the United States is in the unique position of the steward of the world.
 
Well, I'm literally talking about the annexation of Crimea, which everyone but Russia and Russian supporters agree was an invasion.
I don't think that's true. But ok.
And I don't think the US and Russia played equal parts in thr Ukraine situation. The US supported peaceful protests going on in the country, while Russia supported the puppet government. After the puppet government was literally kicked back to Russia, they responded by engaging in hostilities in the eastern side of Ukraine. Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Yeah, Yanukovych was definitely a puppet. As is Poroshenko. Nothing changed there. US should absolutely support peaceful protests (but I think it went too far with Vicky on the ground giving out cookies - that's just plain interference and meddling). I think the people in the east had every reason to be concerned after the (then) new government made an attempt to abolish Russian language in the state shortly after Yanukovych's ousting. That was a terrible thing to do and I can empathize with their feelings of marginalization after that very petty (and provocative) move. I don't know who would rush to be a part of that and NOT look to be self-governing after a move like that.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Perhaps not France... data I saw put them at 1.8% I believe, but that's slightly outdated.

IIRC, they wanted to go down to 1.8% in 2015, but went back up to 2.1% after the terrorist attacks and the engagement in Syria.

With Trump as President, is there a chance Russia becomes our new ally and the US turns its back on Europe?

If he's willing to give up on the middle east, maybe.
So no.
 
How exactly is he going to do that ?

I mean, starting a war is something that a President can easily do without congressional approval, unlike making laws. A president can put troops and resources into a war long before congress gets a vote on the matter, and at that point Congress would have to sacrifice all the soldiers already there in order to end it (which would be massively unpopular amongst the people they need to reelect them), since they can only cut funding.
 

trembli0s

Member
He's an idiot but he's an idiot who's making Europe take notice.

Nobody in Europe gave two shits about funding commitments when Obama gently criticized them in the last year.

Now? Everyone is flipping shit.
 

chadskin

Member
So, the only time article 5 was triggered was to drag other nations into a messy war. I'm not seeing the downside to getting rid of NATO. The US is the biggest bully even as it pays the most for everyone's defense - I want both aspects of that to stop.

Attempts to guarantee other nations' security were what dragged the whole of Europe into WW I - which led to further catastrophes whose effects are still being felt. Now there's a risk that they will drag us into a war with Russia, while other alliances may drag us into a war with China.

Blame George W. Bush for triggering article 5, blame every US president for the size of the military budget, not NATO.

Nations will always seek alliances in the international system, with smaller nations gravitating towards larger nations who are able to a) provide security and b) financial stability and growth. (Unless, of course, they're being forcefully integrated into an alliance like all of Eastern Europe after WWII.) The West is, first and foremost, attractive to nations because of its economic might and economic stability, so much so that the West is able, through NATO, the EU and other institutional frameworks, to coerce nations to observe democracy and humans rights if it wants to gain/retain access. How attractive do you think Russia is in contrast? Not very, I can tell you.

Furthermore, NATO, by design, is not an offensive but a defensive military alliance. If Russia or China decide to attack a NATO member, knowing full well that this will trigger article 5, then it's not the NATO member 'dragging you into a war' but the nation that decided to attack a NATO member.

Attempts to be the world's policeman, the spreader of democracy, and the benevolent empire - all while occasionally overthrowing foreign governments for the benefit of corporations - is a fool's errand.

All of which has more to do with US foreign policy in general than NATO specifically.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Dude. Stop it with the ad hominem. This is a very simple question. If NATO requires member countries to spend 2% of GDP, then why aren't they?



Perhaps not France... data I saw put them at 1.8% I believe, but that's slightly outdated.
If it's such a simple.answer why are you seeking GAF to answer things for you?

Clearly you need to spend some more time understanding the NATO relationship before you start throwing around these conclusive statements you have previously if by your own words, answers to simple questions are alluding you. Not to mention referencing outdated info - by your own words - to build the foundation of some of your statements.
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
Are people pushing Isolationism in here? Those who fail to learn the lessons of the past are condemned to repeat them.
 
If it's such a simple.answer why are you seeking GAF to answer things for you?

Clearly you need to spend some more time understanding the NATO relationship before you start throwing around these conclusive statements you have previously if by your own words, answers to simple questions are alluding you. Not to mention referencing outdated info - by your own words - to build the foundation of some of your statements.

What is the NATO relationship? A majority of European countries free riding (mostly) on the back of American taxpayers?
 
"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."
-G.K. Chesterton
 

Steel

Banned
What is the NATO relationship? A majority of European countries free riding (mostly) on the back of American taxpayers?

There is a problem with some countries not paying their fair share into NATO. However, that does not make it a wise decision to abandon Europe to Russia. Not in the least.

That's like having someone that owes you money and your solution to getting them to pay is to light their house on fire.
 

ccbfan

Member
LOL at panhandler Europe.

It wouldn't even have gotten to this point if the European countries were spending what they promise to spend on their own defense.

Trump is and extremist, a bully, a moron and a racist but he's right in that a majority of European countries are not doing their fair share defending their own country.

Even Bernie Sanders have talked about this.
 

Blader

Member
With Trump as President, is there a chance Russia becomes our new ally and the US turns its back on Europe?

Russia can always be an ally. An ally in lieu of Europe though? Definitely not. A major reason why Russia is struggling economically is because the US and EU realized they could get along just fine without Russia.

Europe is a much more valuable partner than Russia.
 
This is a very simple question. If NATO requires member countries to spend 2% of GDP, then why aren't they?
I think this is a great question. I think if European countries really felt they were really at risk of being invaded at any minute, military expenditures would've increased significantly years ago.
USATodayNATOChart.jpg
If Greece is one of the five countries meeting the required spending, am not sure what excuse the others have really.
Furthermore, NATO, by design, is not an offensive but a defensive military alliance.
I think Afghanistan and most certainly Libya morphed it from defensive military alliance to offensive military alliance.
There is a problem with most vast majority countries not paying their fair share into NATO.
 

guggnichso

Banned
Dude. Stop it with the ad hominem. This is a very simple question. If NATO requires member countries to spend 2% of GDP, then why aren't they?
.

Because NATO does not require them to do that. The 2% of GDP are a target to be reached. At a meeting in 2014 in wales all NATO states agreed upon to reach this target within the next 10 years.

Since then, 2,5 years have passed.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
I think this is a great question. I think if European countries really felt they were really at risk of being invaded at any minute, military expenditures would've increased significantly years ago.

Did they really mistook Germany for Estonia in that picture?
(Also, as already said, it's missing France)
 

OceanBlue

Member
Even if most NATO nations aren't completely fulfilling their obligations, leaving them to fend for themselves against a hypothetical Russian attack seems dangerous to me.
 

chadskin

Member
If this is such a dangerous situation as you put it, then why aren't NATO members spending the required 2% of GDP on military? Only 5 (predominantly small) members are paying their fair share. That's what Trump is pointing out. Not fair for the American taxpayer to entirely foot the bill.

Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. should be doing a lot more.

Every NATO countries pays its share in direct funding to NATO based on the gross national income.


The goal of spending 2% of the GDP on military is a commitment by NATO members, it's not directly related to the operation of NATO.

To put it differently, the US by virtue of the wars in Iraq and Syria and other international ventures is spending more on military than, say, Germany that didn't take part in either war in any meaningful way and is otherwise not a very active military actor in the world.

Until Russia's resurgence, there simply was no real need to spend 2% of the GDP on military for those countries. That's changing now but again, that the US is spending much more than 2% of its GDP on military has little to do with NATO specifically but more with the US foreign policy in general.
 

t0va

Member
What is the NATO relationship? A majority of European countries free riding (mostly) on the back of American taxpayers?

Good lord you are one-dimensional. If footing the bill was so disastrous for us then why do we do it? Ill tell you, its not purely humanitarian, rather, its because a safe and economically sound Europe yields the US profits that FAR exceed the costs of protection. To leave the baltics and the EU for putins taking would permanently cripple the US economy, causing catastrophic damage at home.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
What is the NATO relationship? A majority of European countries free riding (mostly) on the back of American taxpayers?

Keep digging that hole.

Begging questions like this as your only retort makes you look more and more ignorant on the topic with each subsequent post and usage.
 
Smh this is a sad reflection of American education

Good lord you are one-dimensional. If footing the bill was so disastrous for us then why do we do it? Ill tell you, its not purely humanitarian, rather, its because a safe and economically sound Europe yields the US profits that FAR exceed the costs of protection. To leave the baltics and the EU for putins taking would permanently cripple the US economy, causing catastrophic damage at home.

All Trump did is raise the fact that there is a free-rider problem within NATO. Countries should benefit from Article 5 but should also be able to defend themselves, hence the 2% of GDP spending guideline, which the vast majority of member countries are far from meeting.

I don't think Trump said he would give up on NATO per se. He just wants every member country to respect or work towards respecting the guidelines, otherwise it could be time to re-assess the terms of the NATO agreement.
 

jevity

Member
Mainstream media needs to insta-grow some sizeable balls now and start calling out comments like these for exactly what they are :

A dangerous idiot exposing his own ignorance.

It's that simple.

The man simply does not understand what he is talking about.

The media fails completely EVERY time they assume Trump's knowledge of ANY policy related topic reaches farther or deeper than the average person from his voting base.

He is Palin-level ignorant.

Mainstream media needs to FULLY accept and EMBRACE that FACT.

They need to stop analysing his moronic outburst in ANY way, that even remotely indicates that there is ANYTHING substantial to analyse.

There is not.

There is just a growing, sad hole of deliberate spite and ignorance.
 

ccbfan

Member
Because NATO does not require them to do that. The 2% of GDP are a target to be reached. At a meeting in 2014 in wales all NATO states agreed upon to reach this target within the next 10 years.

Since then, 2,5 years have passed.

The 2% agreement have been made a few times.

It also happened 2006 and also in 2002. Both times a majority of the European countries broke their promise and ignored it. Without a stronger push you really think the ones that's ignored it for the last 14 years would do anything different?

Even if most NATO nations aren't completely fulfilling their obligations, leaving them to fend for themselves against a hypothetical Russian attack seems dangerous to me.

That's where madman Trump is a madman. We can't ignore Russia taking most of Eastern Europes but we need the other members of NATO to do their fair share.
 
All Trump did is raise the fact that there is a free-rider problem within NATO. Countries should benefit from Article 5 but should also be able to defend themselves, hence the 2% of GDP spending guideline, which the vast majority of member countries are far from meeting.

I don't think Trump said he would give up on NATO per se. He just wants every member country to respect or work towards respecting the guidelines, otherwise it could be time to re-assess the terms of the NATO agreement.

Jesus christ, when are you going to stop spinning your best intentions interpretation onto this campaign and their amateur hour circus? Open your eyes.
 

AaronB

Member
With great power comes great responsibility. Isolationism is a fool's gambit.

Whether you, Trump, or anyone else likes it or not, the United States is in the unique position of the steward of the world.

The US' history of interventions in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan; propping up of brutal regimes like Saudi Arabia; and overthrowing of South American governments has been such a smashing success that we can't imagine not trying to be the steward of the world.
 

hawk2025

Member
What is the NATO relationship? A majority of European countries free riding (mostly) on the back of American taxpayers?

Do you want to resolve for me the cognitive dissonance of wanting a stronger military presence and NOT "leading from behind", as per the platform, and thinking we should abandon NATO allies?

Any attempts at all at it?
 

Lkr

Member
All Trump did is raise the fact that there is a free-rider problem within NATO. Countries should benefit from Article 5 but should also be able to defend themselves, hence the 2% of GDP spending guideline, which the vast majority of member countries are far from meeting.

I don't think Trump said he would give up on NATO per se. He just wants every member country to respect or work towards respecting the guidelines, otherwise it could be time to re-assess the terms of the NATO agreement.
You're trying to imply Trump knows what he is talking about and has good intentions. I laugh at both notions
 

OceanBlue

Member
All Trump did is raise the fact that there is a free-rider problem within NATO. Countries should benefit from Article 5 but should also be able to defend themselves, hence the 2% of GDP spending guideline, which the vast majority of member countries are far from meeting.

I don't think Trump said he would give up on NATO per se. He just wants every member country to respect or work towards respecting the guidelines, otherwise it could be time to re-assess the terms of the NATO agreement.
Asked about Russia’s threatening activities, which have unnerved the small Baltic States that are among the more recent entrants into NATO, Mr. Trump said that if Russia attacked them, he would decide whether to come to their aid only after reviewing if those nations have “fulfilled their obligations to us.”
How do you interpret this paragraph? It seems pretty clear-cut to me.
 
All Trump did is raise the fact that there is a free-rider problem within NATO. Countries should benefit from Article 5 but should also be able to defend themselves, hence the 2% of GDP spending guideline, which the vast majority of member countries are far from meeting.

I don't think Trump said he would give up on NATO per se. He just wants every member country to respect or work towards respecting the guidelines, otherwise it could be time to re-assess the terms of the NATO agreement.

The subject in question are the Baltic states, Estonia as one of them upholds its end of the NATO agreement and meets the required 2% put forth by NATO. Why would Donald Trump have to "think about" coming to defend us if we're doing everything we're supposed to?

I agree that every member should make sure to uphold their end of the bargain, but France's national security isn't at risk by bordering Russia at a time when Putin and his Duma are more than happy to play hardball with the rest of the world.

What are WE guilty of? Why is OUR security at risk?
 
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