missile said:@SamBishop: Well, I would like to go with you in all the details about why,
what, and whatnot, but that's almost impossible. xD I advice you to read
some of my conversations I had with patsu over at the thread called; 'PS3
Firmware Update 3.21 of preventing piracy by removing Linux', where I've
written various (long) posts about all that stuff. Esp. read my first post.
It appears to me that you want to judge the value of any outcome of the
OtherOS, right? If so, by what means? What is your measure? Profit? Or games
programed per year under the OtherOS?
Many people who have used (and still use) PS3 Linux have gathered a lot of
knowledge and insights, esp. those who have tinkered around with the hardware.
Let me ask you; is knowledge a reasonable value for you? How do you judge that
someone has implemented a matrix-times-matrix multiplication (the so called
4kx4k SGEMM kernel) on the Cell processor performing at 99% of its
peak-peformance (even more efficient than IBMs own implementation), showing
that Cell's architecture with its parallel working DMA engines is actually
superior to any other architecture in existence within this regard? (Larrabee
clocked at 81%). Is this a reasonable outcome for you -- despite it does not
translate straight into ca$h, video games, or flashy pictures?
But to give you a ca$h and video game example; do you know Lingers in Shadows
from Plastic? Guess what Plastic did before the public became aware of them? Do
you know .deTuned from Farbrausch? Guess what Farbrausch did before the
public become aware of them?
Well man, it's not like that the vast majority that have any use for the
OtherOS jumps over here and tell each and everyone what they do with Linux
on the PS3.
So if you follow no interest in any technical aspect of the PS3, i.e. in
operating systems, in new processor architectures, in embedded systems, and
in programming such systems, then the OtherOS feature is not for you. If you
just wanna watch your favorite YouTube videos or play you favorite flash
games, go use a PC.
The OtherOS feature was never target to the average gamer, it was target to
all the computer programming hobbyists and enthusiasts. With the OtherOS
feature Sony has followed a long tradition in supporting all those enthusiasts
starting back in 1997 on the PS1 with Net Yaroze followed by the PS2 Linux Kit
in 2002 and the OtherOS in 2006/7 for the PS3.
It was gimped from the start? mkey.
The hypervisor per se has nothing to do with the RSX. A hypervisor is a
software that virtualizes system resources and controls access to the
hardware. One can have full access to the RSX while a hypervisor is
running.
And that's the reason I highlight outside last post. You obviously don't know
the inner workings of the PS3 under the OtherOS (the hypervisor) and try
somehow to downplay the usefulness of the OtherOS feature. Why? At best you
can say; some people may find this feature (the OtherOS coupled with Linux)
pretty useful, but i don't have any use for it.
Just to let you know, all of the 256MB of video memory can be used under PS3
Linux. So from your perspective I have suddenly the double amount of memory
at my disposal. Well, I'm awesome!
Things would be different (more flourish) with a fully addressable RSX, no
doubt about it! However, this doesn't diminishes the value of the OtherOS,
i.e. of Linux on the Playstation 3, on any global scale.
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread, work has been kinda nuts.
First of all, thank you for responding. This is the kind of discussion I really wanted to drum up with my post and I really can't thank you enough for breaking down that wall o' text with responses. I'll try to respond to them in kind, though, I'll do it by way of your individual points without quoting 'em. Hopefully that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way.
For the first point, I was looking for pure application examples of things. XBMC grew out of having full access, by way of modding or softmodding, to the whole of what the Xbox could do (as I understand it, I'm happy again to be corrected) because it was effectively a really well-boxed PC. The CPU could be used, as it was based off a readily-available Pentium chip, to do stuff people wanted -- namely rendering video with a really slick wrapper and the built-in hard drive. I have no idea of what came out of having the OtherOS available to coders to make stuff and I'd love to know if anything new or PS3-centric that could be carried on was ever made.
Again, I was way out of the loop on that scene, but I was hoping that something in the few years it was available made for something uniquely PS3-oriented, that's all. I measure absolutely nothing; commercial success is actually the opposite of what I'm curious about, I'm just looking to see if there were long-term projects that panned out. Apps, games, anything. I have little doubt that being able to plumb some measure of what CELL as a computing environment could offer to future endeavors might yield something new and interesting, I just wanted to see that bear fruit as an actual program or application. I really do feel the need to make it clear that I'm not attacking anything. I just wanted to know if anything came of having stuff like YDL or other OSes run in the cramped environment that Sony allowed, nothing more.
And yes, to answer your question, I've been well aware of the demoscene and have been in utter awe of what they've been able to do over the years -- with far more limited setups. Nothing geeks me out as seeing a microcontroller pumping out complex music, visuals and greets. Nothing. The guys that are able to do that -- from Farbrausch to Plastic to all the crazy stuff that comes out of Breakpoint is held in my mind to be the same kind exploratory wonder as any of our space programs. It's a feat of absolute metal-level tinkering that most of us can only watch as it spirals out from a few kilobytes to something magical on "ancient" hardware. But I'm dorking out a bit here, sorry.
---
The hypervisor absolutely had nothing to do with locking off the RSX on a total hardware availability level, but I was under the impression that it would open up security risks for whatever reason. Thus, it was locked off, and with it half the memory of the system and any ability to tap into the GPUs power. It was absolutely gimped, as an entire chunk of the memory and the rendering power was likewise walled off for people trying to tap the full computing might of the PS3.
I honestly had no idea the full 512MB of RAM was available to everyone under OtherOS, which is awesome. I was under the impression that because the RSX was effectively locked off, it meant no use of any of its resources. The fact that apparently all of that memory was available is fantastic.
Again, I feel it's important to make it clear (and sorry for the bold) I think it's wonderful that there was a Linux PS3 community and that there were inroads made to allow full access to at least all of the memory. I promise you, I'm not attacking anyone and I'm simply looking for clarification on what I thought was the situation. That's precisely why I was looking to find out if anything had come of being able to run the software on the system, but I fully admit it's coming from a place of looking for stuff where there were real-world applications. XBMC was mentioned purely because that's arguably the most impressive reworking of the Xbox hardware into something that's become a must-have app. The PS3 is insanely powerful for crunching numbers and chewing through HD streams -- in fact that's kinda what the chip does best as I understand it.
Please, please don't misunderstand. I want to know what came of OtherOS, but in real-world terms that folks that never used it could understand. Were there PS3-centric programs that normal folks could use? Were there games or projects that were specific to the CELL architecture? This is the kind of stuff that might help those looking outside in to understand the rage.
That's it, I promise. Otherwise, it makes it seem like a lot of huffing and puffing from a minority that I know doesn't represent the OOS community. Hope that clears things up.
