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How to get away with murder?

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BigBoss

Member
Join the Israeli army. Israeli soldier kills 13 year old Palestinian girl and is acquitted of all charges.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2?CMP=twt_gu

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.

After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.

"They did not charge him with Iman's murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times," he said. "This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children."

The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

Capt R's lawyers argued that the "confirmation of the kill" after a suspect is shot was a standard Israeli military practice to eliminate terrorist threats.

Following the verdict, Capt R burst into tears, turned to the public benches and said: "I told you I was innocent."

The army's official account said that Iman was shot for crossing into a security zone carrying her schoolbag which soldiers feared might contain a bomb. It is still not known why the girl ventured into the area but witnesses described her as at least 100 yards from the military post which was in any case well protected.

A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".

"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

The prosecution case was damaged when a soldier who initially said he had seen Capt R point his weapon at the girl's body and open fire later told the court he had fabricated the story.

Capt R claimed that he had not fired the shots at the girl but near her. However, Dr Mohammed al-Hams, who inspected the child's body at Rafah hospital, counted numerous wounds. "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs," he told the Guardian shortly afterwards. "The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head. One bullet was shot from the right side of the face beside the ear. It had a big impact on the whole face."

The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.

Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.

The transcript

The following is a recording of a three-way conversation that took place between a soldier in a watchtower, an army operations room and Capt R, who shot the girl

From the watchtower "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward." "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death." "I think that one of the positions took her out." "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

From the operations room "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

Watchtower "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot from one of the army posts

Watchtower "I think that one of the positions took her out."

Captain R "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Capt R then "clarifies" why he killed Iman

"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Reading a book about Nazi Germary at war right now so my shock gauge is a bit off right now..

And totally off subject was I the only one who was expecting to see an OJ pic when they clicked on the thread?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Yeah. I don't... it's been a while since I read a depressing Israel army thread, I don't know if I have the stamina to stay in this one long enough to read the people who are going to defend this.
 
Shanadeus said:
Oh, thought this was an advice thread.
It still can be. Here is how you do it: you pick one man up by his ankles, and you hit another man with him. They both die and there's no murder weapon.
thank you, George Carlin
 

Dali

Member
Kinitari said:
Yeah. I don't... it's been a while since I read a depressing Israel army thread, I don't know if I have the stamina to stay in this one long enough to read the people who are going to defend this.
Let's play "How Will They Justify It"!

My money's on marginalizing it by saying US soldiers do horrible things too. I got a feeling some may pull the "the little girl was in a secure area and he did what he was trained to do" card, but I really feel like US does it too is going to be where it's at.
 
PhoncipleBone said:
It still can be. Here is how you do it: you pick one man up by his ankles, and you hit another man with him. They both die and there's no murder weapon.
thank you, George Carlin

That only works if you need to murder 2 people though. If you only need to murder 1 person then a frozen sausage is the weapon you want. After you beat him to death with it you can cook it and eat the murder weapon. Grilled sausage is delicious.
 
salva said:
Damn, he should be arrested. Can't let murderers get away.

PrsqL.jpg


I think you already know what must be done
 

Dali

Member
I <3 Memes said:
That only works if you need to murder 2 people though. If you only need to murder 1 person then a frozen sausage is the weapon you want. After you beat him to death with it you can cook it and eat the murder weapon. Grilled sausage is delicious.
I've thought about icicles since I was a kid. Always seemed so obvious I always wondered why I'd never heard about them being used before.

But the real practical answer is "in a car".
 

Spire

Subconscious Brolonging
In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Should have also been bolded, I think. Just fucking disgusting.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
I <3 Memes said:
That only works if you need to murder 2 people though. If you only need to murder 1 person then a frozen sausage is the weapon you want. After you beat him to death with it you can cook it and eat the murder weapon. Grilled sausage is delicious.
I dunno, you could kill someone with a kitchen knife or some other kitchen utensil. Then cook a stew on the dead person and invite a bunch of people over for dinner.
 
Shanadeus said:
I dunno, you could kill someone with a kitchen knife or some other kitchen utensil. Then cook a stew on the dead person and invite a bunch of people over for dinner.


Lacks irony. Unless the people you invite over for dinner are the murder investigators.
 

Biff

Member
What's disgusting is that the thread title and first line haven't been edited by a mod yet...

At least keep the thread OP neutral :\
 
Israel has the right to defend themselves when they are attacked by little schoolgirls!

What a fucked up story but sadly, it happens all the time. Israelis soldiers are known for their brutality. I saw a documentary about their use of 'non-lethal weapons'. One of them consists of a huge rubber bullet re-enforced with a little steel rod. It's considered by the army to be non-lethal, but it kills pretty much anyone who receives one to the head. And they aim for the head.

In the documentary, a couple of foreign journalists got killed and critically injured by those 'safe weapons'.
 

Dali

Member
ChefRamsay said:
What's disgusting is that the thread title and first line haven't been edited by a mod yet...

At least keep the thread OP neutral :\
This isn't Fox News. I don't think he's not compelled to be fair and balanced. Besides, if this were a thread about any other murderer getting off, would you be making the same request?
 

Shorty

Banned
Jews doing to Palestinians what Germans did to them.

I know it's a hyperbole but I'm sick of the victim image Israel tries to maintain and every time someone criticizes their actions you're labeled an Anti-Semite and a holocaust denier. Killing schoolgirls now? I can not express my disgust over this.

I think it's just a fact of life that most human beings suck when empowered. Be it Germans, Israelites or whatever.
 

Biff

Member
Dali said:
This isn't Fox News. I don't think he's not compelled to be fair and balanced. Besides, if this were a thread about any other murderer getting off, would you be making the same request?
Hmmm.. By saying yes, I'm agreeing that the soldier is a murderer?

I'll just say that any political thread should begin with a neutral OP. War included, no matter which countries are fighting. After that, bash or support the soldier/country/regime/leader on trial.. Fair game.
Shorty said:
Jews doing to Palestinians what Germans did to them.

I know it's a hyperbole but I'm sick of the victim image Israel tries to maintain and every time someone criticizes their actions you're labeled an Anti-Semite and a holocaust denier. Killing schoolgirls now? I can not express my disgust over this.

I think it's just a fact of life that most human beings suck when empowered. Be it Germans, Israelites or whatever.
Hahahaha!! Where did ANYONE bring up anti-Semitism?! The accusations of accusations of (not a typo, read that carefully) anti-Semitism and/or holocaust denial are puzzling.
 

Gaborn

Member
Disgusting, although I do seem to remember the Palestinians have used kids as suicide bombers before. I think you could justify shooting to wound her in that situation but 17 bullets is totally unethical and inexcusable.
 

Dali

Member
ChefRamsay said:
Hmmm.. By saying yes, I'm agreeing that the soldier is a murderer?

I'll just say that any political thread should begin with a neutral OP. War included, no matter which countries are fighting. After that, bash or support the soldier/country/regime/leader on trial.. Fair game.
Gaf is generally self-regulating when it comes to objectivity in the OP, but it's not a hard rule. This isn't the BBC. We aren't obligated to come across as objective. If the OP wants to be provocative to spur discussion then why not. I mean this is a forum after all. As long as the facts are straight I don't see the problem. Just look at damn-near every gay legislation/news thread. They wear their heart on their sleeves in the OP and no one says anything about it.

...of course you open yourself up to the classic thread-backfire when you do this, but maybe that's one of the reasons why GAF is generally self-regulating.
 
shagg_187 said:
Wednesday 16 November 2005
Don't mean to derail the thread, but I saw this too. This is actually the second time I've seen the article posted online today, which would seem to indicate that it was posted somewhere else (digg, reddit, et cetera). Where'd you see it?
 

Shorty

Banned
ChefRamsay said:
Hmmm.. By saying yes, I'm agreeing that the soldier is a murderer?

I'll just say that any political thread should begin with a neutral OP. War included, no matter which countries are fighting. After that, bash or support the soldier/country/regime/leader on trial.. Fair game.

Where did ANYONE bring up anti-Semitism?! The accusations of accusations of (not a typo, read that carefully) anti-Semitism and/or holocaust denial are puzzling.
What? I'm not talking about the incident at hand. I was talking about Israel's general attitude which consists of playing the Anti-Semite card quite frequently. And it gets really annoying.
 

Gaborn

Member
j_k_redtail said:
Don't mean to derail the thread, but I saw this too. This is actually the second time I've seen the article posted online today, which would seem to indicate that it was posted somewhere else (digg, reddit, et cetera). Where'd you see it?

Huh, going on that date I did a quick google and I came to this wikipedia page with a bunch of helpful links looks like there were a number of child suicide bombings in 04/05. Given that situation it's really hard to blame someone for shooting someone running into a security zone with a bag. I think it's much easier to blame them considering the number of times she was shot but... yeah. As tragic as that is I can understand what the fear was.
 

danwarb

Member
Gaborn said:
Disgusting, although I do seem to remember the Palestinians have used kids as suicide bombers before. I think you could justify shooting to wound her in that situation but 17 bullets is totally unethical and inexcusable.

She'd dropped her bag and was shot as she ran away, it seems.
In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.
 
Gaborn said:
Huh, going on that date I did a quick google and I came to this wikipedia page with a bunch of helpful links looks like there were a number of child suicide bombings in 04/05. Given that situation it's really hard to blame someone for shooting someone running into a security zone with a bag. I think it's much easier to blame them considering the number of times she was shot but... yeah. As tragic as that is I can understand what the fear was.
?? Are you responding to me, or was this a misquote?
 

jett

D-Member
ChefRamsay said:
What's disgusting is that the thread title and first line haven't been edited by a mod yet...

At least keep the thread OP neutral :\

Yes, that is what is disgusting.

I have many words for you right now but I'm pretty sure they would all get me banned.
 

Biff

Member
jett said:
Yes, that is what is disgusting.

I have many words for you right now but I'm pretty sure they would all get me banned.
Private message me then? I'd love to hear them!

I won't share, I promise :D
 

Gaborn

Member
danwarb said:
She'd dropped her bag and was shot as she ran away, it seems.

she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive.

Yeah, that's not faulty logic at ALL. Again, there had been a recent history of suicide bombings. She was in an area she was not supposed to be, especially if she was carrying her school bag. It's not like she regularly took that route to go to school (or a military outpost would be a lot less jumpy presumably). I think it's totally inexcusable they shot her multiple times, that's just brutal but if you can reasonably perceive a threat in that situation given the circumstances? I understand where they were coming from.

jk redtail - sorry, I wasn't paying close attention, I should have quoted Shagg instead for the date.
 

Verano

Reads Ace as Lace. May God have mercy on their soul
fucked up shit however Druze soldiers are dangerous due to their patriotism for Israel and nationalistic ideals.

Also, don't mistake Jews for Druze because this israeli soldier was a Druze, not a jew. get your shit straight jew conspiracy theorists of GAF.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Gaborn said:
Huh, going on that date I did a quick google and I came to this wikipedia page with a bunch of helpful links looks like there were a number of child suicide bombings in 04/05. Given that situation it's really hard to blame someone for shooting someone running into a security zone with a bag. I think it's much easier to blame them considering the number of times she was shot but... yeah. As tragic as that is I can understand what the fear was.

I would almost agree with you, except she dropped her bag, ran away frightened, and then was shot as she was fleeing. At least that's apparently what happened.
 
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