I guess but given the difference in tone from the same person after a year seems more like a marketing thing.
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Inside the Scorpio Engine: the processor architecture deep dive
- Thread starter Space_nut
- Start date
Even though Zen as an architecture is much more powerful and capable, i still think Jaguar is the little engine that could. What the CPU has brought us in terms of gaming experiences this gen are nothing short of greatness in many cases. You don't need an overtly powerful CPU to make impressive games if the creativity and optimization of the developer is on point.
Speaking of optimization, i also think that shitshows like just cause 3 are specifically down to the developer not giving a crap to work around those limitations and less to do with the CPU itself
I know its an unpopular opinion, but i don't care.
I don't think Engineers care about marketing.
Tripolygon
Banned
Not only that but this gen has given us better performing games than last gen.
You can praise Scorpio without putting down the competition (props to MS for getting people to think that they are the only ones to do semi custom designs properly).
Quite.
By most accounts the original PS4 had the more extensively customized GPU out of the two.
Because they know 'Jaguar' is a dirty word for the audience of these articles, and that there was an expectation/hope that the extra year for Scorpio would let them move on from that.
Tripolygon
Banned
When you are speaking to developers at GDC, not when you talking to consumers that read Digital Foundry. They pushed the Xbox One as a more balanced console at the start of this gen.
By far. The only times base PS4 is sub 1080p is when they are trying to push 60fps, otherwise PS4 hits 1080p with room to spare in a vast majority of cases(outside of exceptions like the order which wanted to push graphics more than anything at 4xMSAA)
Last gen you could not go 2 seconds without sub HD games and barely 30fps at the same time 3 years in. Hell at launch, and it only got worse from there.
Only first party on PS3 really were able to nail it, and on 360 while it was better, there were always still compromises because MS fucked up with the ED RAM 10MB cache.
about the same as XB1 to PS4, except with more RAM and a slightly higher clocked CPU.
The bandwidth disparity between Pro and Scorpio is also there, but there was also a bandwidth disparity between the ESRAM complication and the GDDR5 of XB1 to PS4, so we can't really quantify it
MS did a lot of custom work for the OG XB1 gpu as well. DME's with the esram made devs use bandwidth in the 120+gb/s range using the ddr3 65gb/s bandwidth. Turn 10 stated that a while back
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I'm yet to be convinced YOU understand them.
The way I read it, in one they mention "some tweaks", and at the very end he downplays the very changes they made as nothing major. In Scorpio the wording is "key changes to the core", which sound like much deeper customization contrary to "some tweaks". I am just referring to the quote, they could be the same, couldn't care less, as long as the machine delivers I am fine, and if it hits 399.95, even better, we will see about that I still have my doubts. So it could be marketing, it could be a big difference, it could be nothing, but at least the quotes, if this was on trial say a different thing, to me, a none tech expert, just an enthusiast.
The ESRAM is a change but you can just look at it from the perspective of dumping a large group of transistors and connecting it with a bus. It even has to be directly addressed, so isn't integrated into the design like you'd expect for a cache.
You could argue that acting like a cache would be detrimental to the design goals but Intel had a lot of success in mapping its Crystalwell EDRAM solution as an L4 cache.
Conversely, some of the changes in the PS4 are much more close to the core of how the GPU operates. It is arguable whether those changes were effective but they changed the design of the GPU itself more extensively than Microsoft's design.
Tripolygon
Banned
There is no doubt that the console will deliver, if you've been impressed with what PS4 Pro is able to deliver with 4K HDR then you will certainly be impressed. Who would have thought this gen would turn out like this? We are getting 4K games with HDR on consoles.
And Freesync to boot.
Caayn
Member
Don't waste your energy. He's like a salesperson in an electronic store that heard a term and keeps repeating it in every sale pitch.
If no one steps-up their APU game, the chances are high that they'll continue partnering with AMD. Especially now that AMD has put their CPU performance back on track.
Sadly yes, and not even clocked that much higher. Not enough for a 30fps -> 60fps increase when CPU bound.
Sure but this isn't your usually type of tech interview especially with pre launch info and it doesn't explain the drastic change in explaining the same thing a year after. Also danhese007 point.
geordiemp
Member
For CPU limited games, 10 %, so read anything like Witcher 3 where people hope to get 60 FPS (LOL).
For games where there is no jump in frame rate from 30 to 60, then Scorpio is much stronger and may not need checker boarding, and if you have a 4K 65 inch or take screenshots you will be able to see it.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
So they mention they have some Vega optimization features and then only detail one that they don't have...
They've made 60 changes, then here's a list of the changes we already mentioned in other articles, no details on the 60 changes..
There are Polaris features, like...
I thought these would be details they should be digging into with this new article.
...............
The only real tidbit here is that they expect titles that hit 720p on Xbox One to possibly hit checkboard 4k on Scorpio. So, Battlefield/Battlefront I would assume.
They've made 60 changes, then here's a list of the changes we already mentioned in other articles, no details on the 60 changes..
There are Polaris features, like...
I thought these would be details they should be digging into with this new article.
...............
The only real tidbit here is that they expect titles that hit 720p on Xbox One to possibly hit checkboard 4k on Scorpio. So, Battlefield/Battlefront I would assume.
i think that depends on how long it takes to be supported en mass by TV manufacturers.
I'm also very curious whether or not such a thing is even possible to update via firmware on Pro in any capacity. Freesync 1(aka standard VRR)should be in theory atleast possible, where as Freesync 2 is def not.
kingwingin
Member
So do devs have to update their 900p/30fps games to 1080/60 or is this automatic?
Would be sweet if the bc team could get 360 titles goimg at 1080p
Would be sweet if the bc team could get 360 titles goimg at 1080p
Tripolygon
Banned
Yesssss this is pretty massive, it wasn't long ago people were doubting console will be getting stuff like Gsync and FreeSync. I hope Sony is able to add support for this via update just like they did with HDR for OG PS4.
Devs have to update their games by default both 360 and XB1, there is no way to automatically unlock the framebuffer for games. Dynamic resolution games should benefit and games with wobbly FPS.
LordOfChaos
Member
The only thing that's automatically upgraded is anisotropic filtering afaik, to 16x. Resolution and framerate would only automatically change if it was an unlocked framerate and a dynamic by load resolution, otherwise the dev would have to test and patch in unlocked/60fps or higher resolutions.
Metalingus5150
Member
I feel like the customizations made to the consoles, PS4,XB1,Pro and Scorpio, are more about hitting their targets rather than push above them.
RedAssedApe
Banned
4.2 waffles vs. 6 waffles
What reason would you have to be upset with facts?
BritBloke916
Member
Scorpio is a nuclear GPU bolted onto a antique CPU. Expect much prettier games but don't expect automatic FPS doubling.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
On paper:
Scorpio is 50% more powerful than Ps4 Pro,
or in other words
Ps4 Pro is 30% less powerful than Scorpio.
Its always important to mention it both ways to avoid stupid fanboy arguments that make math teachers cringe.
So on paper Scorpio is 1.5 Pros.
Or a Pro is 0.7 Scorpios.
Percentage-wise the difference is pretty much just as big as the difference between Ps4 and XboxOne.
Both platforms have a few tricks up their sleeves, so its hard to say how noticeable the visible differences will actually be.
Thanks to Checkerboarding Ps4 Pro might be able to hold up pretty well when it comes to image quality/resolution. But Scorpio has some advantages when it comes to memory which might lead to visible differences in texture quality.
It also depends a lot on the developers and how much time the spend on optimization for each platform.
But what I read so far makes it sound like Scorpio is incredibly easy to develop for and it shouldn't be a lot of work to make use of the extra power.
I'd still hope that Microsoft has an exclusive title ready to show of all the tricks Scorpio got. Exclusives always make hardware sing best.
It'll be a true feast for graphics whores like me when Horizon, Uncharted, God Of War, Gran Turismo, Forza 7 and whatever else Microsoft has clash later this year for the graphics crown of 2017.
Thank you very much.
And another question: is the scorpio going to push Playstation to release ps5 faster? Like one year? It would be (for me) a middle finger to the people how bought the pro.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I'm not...
geordiemp
Member
For anything CPU bound, its 10 %. How often the Achilles heel for both Pro and Scorpio raises its head depends on the game.
Ps5 and Xb2 will come when ZEN and Vega are cost effective to be in a console APU as they are both 2017.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I can't imagine that Sony wants to abandon the Ps4 user base prematurely.
Those hoping that Sony quickly releases the Ps5 and takes back the title of "most powerful console" will be disappointed.
Unless Ps4 really gets crushed in sales by Scorpio because of this power difference, I don't think Sony is in any kind of hurry to release Ps5 and I'd be surprised if we see it before 2020.
MilkyJoe
Member
No, they take a long time to develop, and the backlash would be just. 2019/20 you'll hear about it.
geordiemp
Member
If Zen and Vega can be back compat, my guess is 2019.
Ps4 was 2013, pro was 2016....Ps5 = 2019. Thats 6 year gen, with half refresh....
Zen and Vega will be common place in 2018 in PC land, they will be mature by 2019.
Not at all we won't see ps5 until 7nm node is mature enough for a large apu and profits on the PS4 decline sharply. I think 2020-2021 sounds about right.
So what is this back & forth about?
LordOfChaos
Member
I think people are overestimating how much the Scorpio will disrupt the balance of the force here. The PS4 is a juggernaut this generation, and the XBOs weaker hardware was but a fraction of that. Sony still has an extensive exclusive pipeline, while Microsoft is still dropping studios. There's also that tens of millions of peoples friends already have one or the other, which is another big buying factor.
At most Scorpio will probably mean price drops, but not an accelerated next generation from Sony, they'll be all too glad to ride this one out where they're so far ahead. The Pro already does its job of hitting 4K appeal, native or not, while the true next generation will be in the works to take better advantage of it rather than just doing what current 1080p games do at a higher res, and more CPU to throw at game complexity.
anothertech
Member
It's also likely 218gbs vs 218gbs usable RAM bandwidth like gamasutra pointed out.
No RPM Vega feature is one of the biggest take away from this article. So basically Pro is more Vega than Scorpio.
Will be interesting if df comparisons next year show Pro checkerboard games with higher iq than 4k native Scorpio games because of the focus. I think heads will explode.
No. Sony would not have had to worry about reacting in such a manner even if they only had PS4 slim IMO, but that's just my personal opinion.
I just think people are overestimating the impact of these iterative units in general and how much people care about upgrading.
Hawk269
Member
It is possible, but I doubt Sony is overly worried. It would have to take a monumental shift in sales for Sony to get an itchy finger and release a PS5 before it is really ready. I think some people are hoping for a Power race and them one upping each other, which can happen. I think Sony has been clear to a certain extent that Generations for them still exist and that when PS5 comes out, it will be like a typical release where all new games that wont work on the previous hardware.
I am also not convinced that Sony will have PS4 Back Compatibility with PS5. The whole reason both Sony and MS stuck with Jaguar or custom Jaguar is to ensure compatibility, Sony is not known for the technical software ingenuity to ensure compatibility using a whole new CPU...so I would not 100% bank on it.
Of course Sony could always release a PS4K device next holiday with a further up clocked Jaguar and a Vega inspired 8tf GPU with 12gb of RAM and a UHD drive to compliment calling it a 4k device. At this point anything is possible. But again, it would take Sony to start losing the sales battle for them to move any timelines forward and I don't see that happening. I see Scorpio getting a lot of new customers because of it's technical ability and having the best 3rd party versions of games, I see plenty of current Xbox One players jumping on it. I personally know of about 10 PS4 owners, only 2 of them that also have a One and they all seem to indicate they are moving to Scorpio. That is not to say that is across the board, but I do see some PS4 fans jumping ship, but again it would have to be a giant tsunami of sales shift to scare Sony regardless and I don't see that happening.
Could you imagine at this year's E3 Sony having a similar video like MS did at the end of their E3 presser where they announced the existence of Scorpio? That would totally destroy and neuter what MS has been working on all this time.
"Holiday 2018, the World will experience the most powerful game console ever created, with 8tf of GPU power, 8 Core processor and the best 1st party games any where, Project Nodlehs will usher in a New Generation and will play all your PS4 games and stunning Native 4k games along with UHD Movie Playback...and if you have PSVR you will experience high fidelity VR only Project Nodlehs can deliver. Coming Holiday 2018"...end of Sony E3 Conference 2017, Crowd goes nuts, Gaf has meme's of Scorpio in a coffin, internet melts down.
It has hardware for video they mention it in this article
Liabe Brave
Member
No, FP16 is not just for one specific process. Frostbite itself uses it for more, as per the links danhese007 posted above. And other developers have said that almost all pixel shaders can use FP16. (I did overstate the figure previously; the 35% savings was for pixel shaders, not the entire engine.)
A little less than that, generally. The only element that's 50% higher is memory bandwidth; memory size, total GPU power, and others are in the mid-40s, and CPU power is about 10% higher.
I don't think this really holds.
In my view, Sony released Pro with jaguar because on the short notice of an iterative unit, the turnaround for a machine has to be pretty quick and cheap. So keeping the architecture the same with some upclocks makes the most sense in addition to the fact that keeping compatibility between iterative devices is very important.
That doesn't mean BC with other AMD architectures is not possible, just not in the time frame Pro needed to be out, same for Scorpio...
this is without mentioning that Zen would not have been ready by that time period in the first place