Actually it was smart by MS to exclude it. Waste of die space for Scorpio. Depending on how you look at it the negative the GPU is almost a straight Polaris. The positive is that it kept the die space close to the pro letting them be competitive on price. Also helped to get high clocks to hit 6tf.
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Inside the Scorpio Engine: the processor architecture deep dive
- Thread starter Space_nut
- Start date
Actually it was smart by MS to exclude it. Waste of die space for Scorpio. Depending on how you look at it the negative the GPU is almost a straight Polaris. The positive is that it kept the die space close to the pro letting them be competitive on price. Also helped to get high clocks to hit 6tf.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
That is actually one of the downsides of these mid gen upgrades, it would be nice to get games that actually take full advantage of the Pro and Scorpio to see what they could really do.
MaulerX
Member
Ok good. Sticking to my original prediction of $399 to $449.
Maybe for a higher HDD size configuration. I'm not seeing $499 as the base model though.
Don't do this to yourself. 499
No I'm not joking these are the real specs so what is the problem?
do you think that the fp16 number should be completely ignored just because some people don't understand them?
That is the difference according to Sony between a Pro and a PS5. That's why they were not concerned with going crazy with marketing and making owners pressured to buy one to get a mandatory superior experience
When they want you to upgrade they'll surely let you know
CrimsonEclipse
Member
No FP16/No Exlusives.
Scorpio am cry.
Scorpio am cry.
There's nothing inside this thing that warrants a 500$ pricepoint from the hardware they revealed. This thing comes across like it was designed with a 399$ pricepoint in mind every step of the way.
Sorry, yeah I meant whatever their next multi-plat game is. Sony may have them tied up with BB 2 at the moment.
JamesHolden
Banned
The fact that Nvidia completely neutered FP16 performance in my GTX1080 so as not to compete with it's Titan line of compute centric cards, has completely throttled my PC gaming experience. I'm surprised Microsoft is making the same mistake in Scorpio. /S
Dictator93
Member
It is good information to put out there as it is of course true, but its relevance on a large scale --- to the point where it needs mentioning every time people talk about the specs differences --- is maybe quesitonable?
In its current form as I understand it, we know that fp16 was used by the frostbite team to speed up 30% of the resolve portion of checkerboarding (so 1 step in one part of checkerboarding process). That is not a whole lot of added performance when you compare it to the rest of the 33,3ms render time. Should we expect more from other devs? Or perhaps is it perhaps that fp16 has a more limited scope in its usage than just doubling performance for free?
Eitherway, I feel that it comes accross as pre-emptively defensive to mention it everytime.
Beyond3d
Are you me? "Post time (Today, 05:39 PM) " hahaha
Huh? No. The PS4 Pro is still $399 and doesnt even have a UHD Drive. Lol
Yeah so far I don't really see why this can't be $399 or $449. The only thing I can't really figure out is why Digital Foundry estimated it at $499. Suits Microsoft either way, I suppose, who have spoken as the product and price as premium more than once. Hard to know whether they're preparing people for the bitter pill of a high price, or whether they're trying to surprise people with a low one. One thing's for sure, if this really is $499, I think it will kill a a lot of the hype around the product.
Tripolygon
Banned
Did you even understand what you copied?Beyond3d
The same time it will take Scorpio to do a single FP16 calculation, PS4 Pro would do 2. But in the grand scheme of things, Scorpio has no use for double rate FP16 because it is already a powerful console.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Well it's multi-platform game, they will probably just port over the patch, probably wouldn't be hard to do. But this is From, so who knows if they will or not.
Sony is making a good profit on each unit. We saw specials as low as 340 for the pro. Sony could easily drop to 349.99. But they want to make lots of money on hardware this generation. MS could easily hit 399.99 if they decide to break even on the hardware. We know the uhd drive is 15 dollars more. That leaves 35 for the ram and cooling which is very reasonable.
Again only for a specific process from the entire gpu rendering pipeline
Anyways GDC next year will be fun
Licenses​ also. I'm sure Dolby Atmos and whatever else isn't free.
Dinky Dino
Member
Yup. I'd like to see a broad range of how new multiplats run on release to see how it fares. But it's still 7-8 months off so that's quite a wait
I'm actually really excited to see how effective Dolby Atmos for Headphones actually is once they release the damn Dolby app to configure it.
The Dolby app is on windows 10. Never used it tho.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Well I already have a Pro and games like Ratchet & Clank and Horizon look fantastic on my 4k TV, so I'm very happy with it, although I do look forward to a bigger leap when PS5 is released in 2-3 years time.
I wonder if Play Anywhere and their whole combined Xbox/PC development initiative influenced this decision? I would think having everything coded in fp32 would ease cross platform development and compatibility?
I think the quote mentions it was the memory savings that were the biggest increase which single rate fp16 should still be able to take advantage of?
I think the quote mentions it was the memory savings that were the biggest increase which single rate fp16 should still be able to take advantage of?
Except it comes with Color Delta compression and cache re-balancing much like the other new hw. And bandwidth:compute ratio in Scorpio and Pro is virtually the same, both got memory upgrades to match their compute capacity - basically.Space_nut said:
To be fair - I think it lines up with their design priorities. Scorpio is being advertised as "enhancing your BC transparently" and easy path to 4k from 900-1080 XBOne titles - it makes sense to focus on features that don't require re-architecting parts of the pipeline to fit.dr_rus said:
Pro took a different route from beginning - from image reconstruction techniques to specific support for efficient non-standard rasterization (for VR and other things), FP16 slots into that better - as optimally using these does imply revisiting your render-pipeline as opposed to simply upgrading settings for higher resolution/quality.
Eg. - while the first gen of PSVR titles has featured nice upgrades for Pro - they are actually dramatically under-utilizing what Pro can really do there.
Basically this is MS going back to focusing on being more developer 'friendly'*, where Sony took a step into the "here's a bunch of new stuff for you to play with" again, ie. a more traditional console approach.
*Obviously these mid-gen console-revisions are the anti-thesis of developer-friendly anything - but since 2 of 3 are doing it this gen, and Nintendo did a lot of the same on their last 2 handhelds, it's kind of a moot point to discuss - it's here to stay.
Tripolygon
Banned
Only from their checkerboard resolve shader but they also saw a massive reduction in their LDS memory usage. The frostbite engine has made extensive use of fp16 on PS3. And again like I said Scorpio is still more powerful than PS4 Pro and nothing will change that.
Correct.
What exactly is FP16 doing for Pro though if all the end results are checkerboarding. Dice is using it extensible to try to squeeze results out of the machine. This reminds me of the XB1 Esram latency advantage and cpu clock speed bump. None of those "advantages" changed the end result of game performance because PS4 simple had a better gpu and memory.
If they show this at E3, I will pre-order Scorpio right away!
Would be crazy if The Witcher 3 gets a 1080p60 patch.
NeOak
Member
Will Bloodborne 2 have no stuttering or will it be Stutterborne 2?
You know it will. Sony showing great support for it. I couldn't stand it after 3 hours
wesleyshark
Banned
Entirely on the devs. Witcher 3 will consistently hit its target render, but the framerate would have to be a patch by CDPR, which I'm going to guess won't happen.
I'd love if it did, but I wouldn't expect it.
The end results are checkerboarded 4K. They've been talking about their checkerboarding tech since the first reveal. It comes close to the clarity of 4K without the necessity of the extra GPU power for native 4K. It was literally what the thing was designed to do.
Why act like it's this huge disappointment all of a sudden? Even DF was mighty impressed with the end results of CB4K.
Will Bloodborne 2 have no stuttering or will it be Stutterborne 2?
You know it will. Sony showing great support for it. I couldn't stand it after 3 hours
That's your loss. No worries here.
Who says they'll still go with AMD?
Tripolygon
Banned
You answered your own question. Xbox One never had a latency advantage. Esram has a lower latency than GDDR5 but GPUs don't need low latency memory. Xbox One had a 9% clock speed bump, that is not really an advantage that makes a visible difference. The bespoke features that are on Pro are there to make better use of the 4.2TF GPU, which is less powerful than 6TF GPU in Scorpio.
RaoulDukeGonzo
Member
Love reading the development of the hardware for consoles. Glad to see Nick Baker is still on board. I remember watching an interview with him regarding the Xbox 360 development:
https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Nick-Baker-XBox-360-Architecture
https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Nick-Baker-XBox-360-Architecture
THe only way MS and Sony don't go with AMD next round, is if AMD go bankrupt before PS5 is set to release.
There's literally no reason not to.
Pretty sure AMD has been making their console contracts a priority as soon as they can
Please stop
PeterLegend
Member
So it's still a Jaguar right?
XB1 -
Scorpio -
Unless am missing something here this sounds very much the same in terms of tweaks of course with the Scorpio being more refined so why are they now pushing for this new labelling of "Full Custom CPU", "Custom x86 cores" when customisation are similar between both?
Edit -
This didn't lay my thoughts out well put I just find it funny how hard they are trying to push the custom CPU angle.
Scorpio -
Unless am missing something here this sounds very much the same in terms of tweaks of course with the Scorpio being more refined so why are they now pushing for this new labelling of "Full Custom CPU", "Custom x86 cores" when customisation are similar between both?
Edit -
This didn't lay my thoughts out well put I just find it funny how hard they are trying to push the custom CPU angle.
Its not a question, we knew that's what it was before announcement. But the fact remains that for what MS wants to do with this machine, Jaguar is irrelevant. They don't need anything better to be superior to Pro in terms of hardware as their CPU is already clocked higher.
Because they want to avoid the jaguar labeling, everything has to be shown as customized and new for hype factor.
LordOfChaos
Member
Marketing. What do you think.
Jaguar has become a bad word in some gaming communities (like GAF).
Tripolygon
Banned
Marketing 101.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Customizing the gpu to handle latency, bandwidth, and memory extremely more than a basic model is way better for graphics than fp16 I would bet. How's fp16 working for the switch?
Because Sony did not optimise the GPU with AMD and forgot what profilers are? The same Sony that lead AMD's increased push in Asynchronous compute
?You can praise Scorpio without putting down the competition (props to MS for getting people to think that they are the only ones to do semi custom designs properly
).They had a goal of getting Xbox One games to 4K at the best balance between price & performance that they felt was reasonable for consumers. they reached their goal for performance so the added hardware features wasn't needed.