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US House votes to adopt AHCA (Republican health care); bill moves to Senate
- Thread starter CrocMother
- Start date
Getting a bit tiring to deal with the "they're all demons" response.
A faction of the precariat class in America -- the one typically uneducated -- fell for cat calls on jobs restoration campaigns and to a world that was instead of dealing with a world that is. The power of a jobs cult beats reason, and for people in America losing everything, they're already not of sound mind to be clear and critical when they're thinking in terms of survival value.
Guy Standing talks about this issue of the precariat. Simply put, the economic system of the 20th century has entirely broken down and this has created chaos in neoliberal societies. The only ones with a self-narrative are the political right, and this should legit scare the shit out of you, because their narrative is a cesspit of lies.
Yes, people supporting neonationalism tend to be racists, bigots, and vile fuckin' people. But let us understand that this society is failing the majority of people en masse, and the least educated among us are in fact the most vulnerable for the fucking crows looking to gouge their eyes. You don't even need sympathy or compassion for these people: understand the depths of the problem and you can see how people fall into this stream. The issue is trends more than anything, because Donald Trump was literally 30 years in the making for America.
Be more mindful of the trends and breakdowns, because until those get fixed, people will continue to line up for execution disguised as restoration.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Left wing populism hasn't worked since FDR because that was the last time everybody but whites were second class citizens. You'll never get past the problem of convincing people you aren't taking their tax money and giving it to illegal immigrants.
It doesn't even have to be illegals. Look at how quick people get mad at the idea of tax money going to any "other." That constant isolationism in terms of American ideals has become terminal for society.
Amibguous Cad
Member
I'm losing my health insurance if this passes.
I live in a red state.
Fuck you.
Maybe start caring about the people these policies are supposed to effect instead of treating this like a game.
(I mean, I voted for Hillary and have volunteered for dems, but even if I didn't this would be beyond reprehensible).
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
You should be more pissed at the people that voted for this.
Aaronology
Member
I don't know why this ire is directed at me; I don't care. I give zero fucks about the people who voted for this. I'm sorry you're losing your health insurance if this passes, but I unapologetically take considerable consolation from the fact that many of the people responsible for your predicament will also be losing theirs.
Angelus Errare
Banned
He did, Aaron voted for Hillary. Your anger should be directed at all your fellow red state'ers who voted against their best interest because like...they're the reason you're losing your health insurance.
Or continue to point your anger at everyone but those responsible.
shawnbuddy
Member
Pretty fun to see Trump turn around and praise Australia's Medicare universal healthcare system right after passing this plan. Feeling like you're going crazy because things can't really be this bizarre is fun, right?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Yeah. Basically the only way this changes if people feel the pain they brought onto themselves and vote differently next time.
roflwaffles
Member
I feel for you, but yeah, anger should be directed at the people who elected Trump into office.
We're on your side and we don't want you to lose your health insurance, but the blame needs to be put on those who let this get so far.
Jmanunknown
Member
I understand what you are saying but unlike Obamacare, Trumpcare's obvious goal is not to cover more people it is to cut costs so that trump can fund his tax cuts for the wealthy. So I agree they are similar in their approach in some aspects but the end goal of both bills could not be more different.
OriginalThinking
Member
In the past I've rejected the notions of good and evil. But the GOP are seriously making me reconsider that position.
Jmanunknown
Member
Would you mind quoting where I said they are all demons oh wait let me help you can't because those were not my words. I wish people like yourself would stop trying to be so sanctimonious especially when your mischaracterizing what I actually said.
Rice-Eater
Member
Boy I know I shouldn't have but I did it anyways. I just wanted to hear what the other side thought so I went to Fox News's website. I clicked on a article about this subject and then a video of Sean Hannity played. I'm like "OK, lets me see how he spins this". He kept rambling on about how bad Obama Care is and how he lied about keeping your doctor and yada yada. I skipped ahead, same shit. I kept skipping till I reached the end, the same exact shit. Their was no defense of this new bill, the dude was just trying his hardest to reinforce how bad the ACA is even if this new bill is actually worse.
Just what do Republican voters think? I have a hard time believing that outside of the hardcore Trump base that the rest have absolutely no problem with this.
Just what do Republican voters think? I have a hard time believing that outside of the hardcore Trump base that the rest have absolutely no problem with this.
Escape Goat
Member
Not in its current form. They'll pull it more towards the center but they're going to lose the Freedom caucus when it goes back to the House. And Democrats aren't going to offer up any votes.
But Trump is desperate to win so I won't underestimate his ability to defy political gravity. But reconciling the more centrist pull of the Senate with the Freedom Caucus doesn't seem possible. Not without help from Dems and even some Republicans are like "This whole thing is crap".
nephilimdj
Member
Obama wanted to hurt Austalia;s health care with the TPP, it was a war on patents (ie drugs). Also was pushing to open half a dozen American owned hospitals around Australia, payed for by Aus goverment.
Trump has been pretty openly saying he wants to lower drug costs
Muppet of a Man
Member
His characterization of this new "precarious proletariat" (prec-ariat) is spot on:
He says there are 3 sub-groups materializing within it: the atavists (i.e., the uneducated working class who have a penchant for becoming bigoted right-wing numbskulls who yearn for a return to the real or imagined glory of their ancestry), the disenfranchised (i.e., ethnic minorities, LGBTQ, etc. who've never had a place at the table to begin with and who need to hang on to anything they've managed to get access to for survival's sake), and the new progressives (i.e., people from the middle class who've accomplished all the traditional and far-reaching milestones they've been advised by their parent's generation to engage in to get ahead, only to realize that their is no future for them that is even at par with their parent's middle class lifestyle...only the endless debt which was required to get the credentialization to reach that point and the endless grinding of underemployment to attempt to stay above water to pay it all back).
I think the atavists are a lost cause at this point. They are the new breed right-wing nativist Republicans. I definitely agree that they've been screwed in terms of viable economic opportunities, but they could have joined the other 2/3's of the precariat in trying to forge a new future instead of trying to vindictively undermine them.
It is the duty of the remaining 2/3's of the precariat to right this ship. The disenfranchised and the new progressives need to band together and stop bickering to stop the bigger threat: this new right headed by the 2 headed dragon of the young atavists and the old incumbents of power of the previous (3rd) industrial revolution.
A hard revolution is not viable without lots of death and destruction being the end result, and no one wants that. The current system of Rentier Capitalism (what Milton Friedman's Neoliberalism of the 80's and 90's eventually devolved into current day, where obtaining and sitting on intellectual property and equity is more important to controlling power and wealth than actually innovating/inventing the future) is also unsustainable. So, it's going to have to be an evolution away from the current system into a new one.
We all need to define what that new system will look like. Guy Standing suggest basic income as a way to level the playing field. Adding to that, I think a system that also mandates that all employees are afforded equity and where total executive compensation would be pegged to a max ratio with the median total compensation of all employees and contractors combined would be even better.
I was wondering about that. If the Senate change it up it has to go back to the House again to be voted on?
So basically it's a long way from being law yet?
Sorry for assuming you were, then. Many people are quick to do so, even on this forum.
Hope you understand my misunderstanding in doing so. I jumped the gun here.
I agree with a good deal of this. Unfortunately, the atavists here will likely face the problem of confirmation bias and doubling down on beliefs despite opposing evidence. In this sense, they are a lost cause, which is why it's more important to understand who they are and what made them what they are, which is not what we're doing at the moment; we're just demonizing them as bad. We're not linking their beliefs and attitudes to conditions and conditionings, which is really how this whole problem is unfolding.
We're also seeing a battle play out between the disenfranchised and the progressives, and this can be seen as recent as the Hillary vs. Bernie purity tests. The former group knows they are oppressed and exploited, yet the latter is really desperately looking for a ladder to where we escape the arena we're in almost entirely. That direction does indeed seem to be the endgame, but the problem today is we don't have that vision of a "politics of paradise." Mark Blyth, who has similarly talked about all of these similar issues, has regarded the current image of the Democratic party as just an opposition block, which they are. They are an opposition to the madness of neonationalism, but one of the most dangerous chinks in their armor is a lack of a vision forward. Barack Obama warned about this specifically with automation; no Dem is touching this, and until they do, this country will emit much more conservative uprisings then it needs. They are, to paraphrase Blyth, "on life support" when it comes to escaping the depths of the mess we're in. This means we'll just be handing the direction to neonationalists who at least have a vision, however bullshit, however misleading, however dangerous.
After all, this is how Trump won: it's so easy to just promise a rewind of the clock and to deny the scope of problems facing us, which is precisely what Steve Mnuchin did weeks ago when he said technology will not be an issue in labor until the 2100s. Linking that back to health care, assuming the AHCA becomes law; people need full-time employment to be covered well, and that's fading. Some people, even one user in this very thread, literally proposed a full-time job as the solution here. People lapsing into precarious work and gig economies will likely face gaps in coverage penalties due to unstable living conditions, and as you can quickly imagine, this starts snowballing into toxic situations really fucking fast. Stress, being more like a neurotoxin, will negatively impact the health of people, thus raising their risk of illness, thus preexisting conditions, thus disconnection from care. The issue of precarity is linked to every core issue facing society today.
I do wonder if we will have the wherewithal to create a new vision in a timely manner. The precariat class is expanding rapidly with the dissolution of full-time employment in much of the first world that's gone neonationalist -- Canada had only 5% of jobs made last year to be full-time, and this is a "liberal paradise" -- and the looming automation bomb is going to create an influx of atavists with the loss of people in retail and trucking, just like it has with coal and manufacturing. This is toxic, for in America, trucking is the largest occupation nationwide. And we have no floor for these people...where do you think these people will go? To the Trump's of the world. This should be frightening.
If we're going the other way on key issues like health care, how on God's green earth are we to not have this society in shambles before halfway into this century..? We have absolutely nothing planned for a 21st century world, and everything is crumbling in a similar manner to the pipes in Flint or the bridges in parts of the country. Things like a UBI, however sincere and necessary, are targets to hit long after comprehensive health care reform, and we risk kicking the clock back on that to twenty years ago, to an age where tinnitus was enough to prevent a company from giving you heart meds.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Ya know, it's really funny how much projection there is in this post. I don't do anything, should learn be productive and channel my energy into "useful" things. As I said in my first post no on read, Trump and Republicans have done so many things that Democrats could beat them over the head with like Republicans did for the past ~decade but what do you instead decide to "waste" your energy on instead of channeling your anger into something stupid instead of something useful? What's really important and useful right now is whether someone delegates to their staff to read portions of a large bill while they also read it? I perfectly understand being upset, try and calm down and come back with a clear head because this is a common practices from both political parties, it's common in other jobs, it's commonplace and an acceptable practice literally everywhere because what you're saying isn't making much sense right now.
Start caring? You're mad at the people who voted for Hillary, spent their personal time calling representatives about this garbage but fuck them they need to start learning to care about people?
Be made about your fellow citizens in your state who thought you shouldn't have healthcare. Be mad at the people who did vote but were conned that they still can't realize or don't care enough to get off their ass that they're not willing to threaten and sway the opinion of people they voted it power and have the power to vote out of power. I get his post sounds callous but he's not the reason we're in this situation and he's not the reason this situation isn't getting fixed. Look around you.
the_batman
Banned
that's why Obama embraced the name, he knew it was better than anything the republicans could do on their own
Let it go.
The evidence is in your face. Evil exists. The GOP, ISIS, I don't know how you can deny it.
A significant portion of Americans are evil and many will be screwed by this bill enacted by people they supported because of their hatred of minorities.
Embrace it; The GOP are evil. When in doubt, try to name a ***single*** Republican policy that benefits society in general, instead of only benefiting the rich, allowing discrimination, or ruining the lives of non-white people (whether by deporting them or killing them).
Fuck all Republicans and anyone who voted for them.
NiiloPielinen
Member
IMO there are very few people who I would call truly evil in the world.
People acting in the name of ideology or religion can believe that they are doing the good and right thing while in reality their actions do harm and can be considered evil.
Road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Green Yoshi
Member
Why can't hospitals and doctors take care of people without any insurance and then the federal government pays the bill? But if you want the best service, no waiting times for an appointment and things like dentures covered you will still need an insurance.
Sunster
Member
you're a radical leftest equivalent to the very worst of terrorists. how dare you suggest such a thing? scum. merica.
Aaronology
Member
"Very few"? What is or isn't evil is more a philosophical concept than I like to bother with, but if we want to strip it down to simply a propensity for intense malevolence and hostility towards other living beings than there are many, many individuals on this planet who'd easily qualify. Is there a polite and non presumptuous way to call an opinion naive? I don't think you have swam in the deeps of far right echo chambers if you think "good intentions" even vaguely describes the extreme opposition to ACA by many.
These people have no ideology, they just use it as a tool for their goal, a country of slaves under the boot of the 1%.
The Salt Life
Banned
They already have medicare, they don't care about what happens to anyone else. They stuck it to Democrats and that's all that matters to them. They are old.
Do you have a source for that? That doesn't seem to jive with numbers I see from time to time.
FreedomFighter
Member
Wow, this is amazing. Of course Aussie's have better healthcare than we do.
US is such a backwards ass nation. Glad Bernie got fodder out of this too.
Green Yoshi
Member
I always forget that illnesses are a punishment by god. My bad. ^^
heheh. If this ever does become law (it won't), it makes me feel good knowing the states that get hit the hardest will be the ones who fucking deserve it.
But fuck this law, because of all the unintended collateral too.
Lol at grouping GOP and ISIS together. The thing is, even if the AHCA might "kill" thousands of people, GOP politicians still aren't "evil". People who prefer smaller goverment and less social welfare aren't evil. Wealthier people who advocate for policies that might relatively hurt poorer people more aren't evil. It's unfortunate that they have the beliefs that they have, but they have every right to have their own opinions of things and you know what? Around half of the Americans support most of their policies.
"Everybody is on their own, no goverment handouts" policies what GOP tends to have are pretty reasonable policies in my opinion. I certainly don't approve them and I realize that I'm very fortunate to live in a country that has great social security, but I also understand that not everyone agrees with what is the responsibility of the goverment.
Semi OT:
I think what is most worrying is the polarization of the American politics. The political system is a mess, both sides accuse each other about everything and the politicians do everything to rile up their base against the other. The amount of fake news, half-truths and false narratives, mostly from the right but a lot from the left as well is ridiculous. Even in GAF the quality of political discussion went way down during the election cycle and it has stayed down ever since. The two party system in USA just doesn't work and that just sucks since there doesn't really seem to be a place for a new party.
/endrant
Steve Youngblood
Member
One of the things I don't understand visiting a site like CNN is that there are several pieces acknowledging that this is a triumphant moment for Trump. I don't get. Not passing an Obamacare repeal was a humiliating failure because republicans have campaigned on doing just that for years. Passing something through the House is hardly some Herculean feat. They shouldn't have had this much trouble to begin with. You don't need to look at this through some binary lens where if you acknowledge that not passing something is a colossal fuck up, then you must acknowledge that passing anything is a soaring achievement. "Governing body passes minimum bar for competency" should not be grounds for praise.
I find it extremely difficult to find support for the AHCA to be anything but evil.
This isn't a case of disliking social welfare because the Republicans put in an exception for just for themselves. One where their pre-existing conditions are guaranteed to be covered by their health insurance providers.
If that is not the definition of evil I dunno what is. Its as close as you can get to "you people outside the castle have to die for our beliefs".
LegendofJoe
Member
There are a few good Republicans. I disagee with Ben Sasse in the Senate on most issues but he's a smart guy and his heart is generally in the right place (for a GOP politician). And Walter Jones in the House, who is pretty much the last holdout of the Republican party that was worth voting for, but yeah they sure as heck aren't the norm.
The above is a myth. Trump's voters were typically on the higher end of the economic scale. They're not losing everything, they're actually some of the most well off people in the world. The people voting on economic issues primarily voted Clinton.
Fuck you got mine
The bar has been lowered so far it's close to dinosaur bones.
Aaronology
Member
Ratings. A triumphant moment is drama and spectacle.
Technically it is a victory for him. The American people are the losers. Let's hope the headline changes when/if the Senate kills it.
The last time you had candidate run on left wing populist ideals was Barack Obama in 2008. It seemed to work pretty well for him (even if that is not how he governed).