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Crossing Eden · Jul 6, 2017

Schopenhauerian said:
Agree with the above (and with Cara Ellison's suggestion, as noted below). There are folks who approve of the improvement in Lara's visual design, but have specific objections to her characterization, in the latest game in particular:

Interestingly, it turned out that Pratchett herself may have had problems with the extent to which Lara's motivations/mental life (in ROTTR) is fixed obsessively around her father. Unfortunate that Crystal Dynamics apparently insisted on that type of effective simplification/trivialization of Lara's agency/motivations/mental life:

I was actually planning on starting a thread soon about how a lot of women in gaming that are more positive examples are often chasing the ideals/identity of their parents as a primary motivator instead of being their own person. Thanks for the links.

jiggle · Jul 6, 2017

Usually a fan of Nomura's work
But I'd like to know what he was smoking when this thing happened

Laiza · Jul 6, 2017

LordKasual said:
Seriously people

Quiet isn't even notable in the scheme of bad shit from Japan

I'd take Quiet over the sea of bad created characters you'd get from simply walking into a lobby on a game like PSO2

The thing that makes quiet more egregious is how much she stands out in a game with otherwise believable designs.

Same thing with Cindy. Cindy stands out like a sore thumb. PSO2 is absolutely chock-full of idiotic designs, but at least they're consistently idiotic and you know what to expect at this point. Quiet and Cindy are standout bad designs in otherwise serious games.

O.v.e.rlord · Jul 6, 2017

DiipuSurotu said:
My pick:

Quiet from the Metal Gear series. Seriously the way they depict this "character" is borderline offensive!

What's yours GAF?

You mean the best right. Cause I love her both design and character. Fucking burned alive! Then infected with super bugs to get powers and gets her skin back. She's awesome.

QuantumSquid · Jul 6, 2017

Toxi said:
In addition to the sadly standard thigh gap, Brachydios Armor brings giant armored pigtails to the table. Words cannot describe how stupid this is.

What's wrong with a thigh gap?

Inuhanyou · Jul 6, 2017

I think i have a pretty high tolerance for T&A and other forms of sexualization of females in media.

This goes past that into pure cringe and embarrassing status. You have truly driven off the proverbial cliff when every other iteration of Ivy is tasteful by comparison.

Also in the running : any Mortal Kombat female from 4 to 8

Morrigan Stark · Jul 6, 2017

Tubs_McNubs said:
Given the wealth of options, I can't believe there are people saying reboot Lara Croft is one of the worst female character designs. Come on guys...

These people think that if a lady doesn't give them a boner, they're worthless. I bet they'd actually enjoy your "monstrosity", lol

Toxi said:
I think it looks like an incoherent mess (though to be fair, I don't think any of the Zinogre stuff besides the hunting horn looks good; even the monster itself is a bit too overdesigned for my tastes). Impractical armor is fine if it actually looks elegant and interesting. Zinogre armor feels lazy, like they just threw all the Zinogre details onto a standard armor template.

I'm with you. MH armour designs have always been atrocious for both genders, but significantly worse for females.

The worst is the Wroggi set. If you're a dude, you get to be a cool cowboy, but if you're a girl, you get to be... a stripper?

SMH

ShadowSwordmaster · Jul 6, 2017

I always found Sun Shangziang look in DW6 to be pretty bad.

Machina · Jul 6, 2017

I just knew this thread would revolve around sexualization more than anything else, because why wouldn't it lol

Crossing Eden · Jul 6, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
But i think that should be fine though? There have been plenty of art and stories that talks about sexuality. I know there's a problem in games with using women as sex objects meant to sell to an audience, but sex in games i feel should be discussed as long as it's equal and respectful? Not even saying that most of the examples in this thread are that lol.

The problem is that despite all of these sexualized designs, almost none of them have anything to do with any expression of genuine sexuality. Like, literally none.

M1nion said:
You mean the best right. Cause I love her both design and character. Fucking burned alive! Then infected with super bugs to get powers and gets her skin back. She's awesome.

Yea man the one woman in the game, (who's actually real), being burned alive and then being nicknamed Quiet and conveniently falling in love with the player because the story makes no fucking sense is awesome. Which reminds me:

Hi, i'm the manifestation of the player's guilt since they couldn't prevent me from being raped, tortured, and killed over an extended period of time, nine years later, the player character is still guilty. So they imagine how I was before that time, but doesn't realize it yet, this is how the player remembers me, the person who used to also pretend to be an underage girl:

Kinsei · Jul 6, 2017

jiggle said:
Usually a fan of Nomura's work
But I'd like to know what he was smoking when this thing happened

It looks like he bought an 8 pack and then thought to himself that the plastic holding them in place would make a great dress.

PK Gaming · Jul 6, 2017

LuchaRider said:
The narrative loophole is just another name for "Artist vision" making a context and a lore problem and instance where a character should/have/must wear of be in certain ways is just another way of justify it and normalize stuff.

No, that's not what i'm getting at. I'm not talking about Quiet tier "she wears this because she needs to" justification. I'm talking about what themes the game conveys through visuals alone. Like how a major part of the

9S

character arc revolves around sex and violence, such as when

2B chokes him to death, only for the game to reverse that later on, with the obvious implication being that he wants to both fuck and kill 2B.

It's complicated and i'm barely scratching the surface of it, but the characters being sexy lends itself to the game's aesthetics, rather than hurts it. Because unlike like dumb fanservice, it doesn't feel out of place.

Apt101 · Jul 6, 2017

Trickster said:
Still don't know how what NRS was smoking when they made this

It's an even more boring version of the JLU design.

SolidSnakex · Jul 7, 2017

Springy said:
Those games were extremely popular, and that design has become synonymous with that popularity. So, I'd agree with you that 90s Lara's attire is 'iconic,' but I think the idea that a skin tight tube top and short shorts can be iconic says more about the audience being considered than the design by itself.

Well, I think that gets into another discussion. Is showing skin inherently bad? With the two current character designs threads we see that there's some frame of thought that fully covered = good while revealing = bad. Like I said, there were no shortage of revealing designs at the time yet somehow hers came out. So, there has to be something about it that clicked with people in a positive way.

Twookie · Jul 7, 2017

jiggle said:
Usually a fan of Nomura's work
But I'd like to know what he was smoking when this thing happened

Haha damn I was looking for this picture but I couldn't remember the name of the character!

Design is suuuuuuper dumb

Springy · Jul 7, 2017

Machina said:
I just knew this thread would revolve around sexualization more than anything else, because why wouldn't it lol

Because it's more often than not the driving force behind the visual design of female characters, so, yeah, it would tend towards being well-represented.

SolidSnakex said:
Well, I think that gets into another discussion. Is showing skin inherently bad? With the two current character designs threads we see that there's some frame of thought that fully covered = good while revealing = bad. Like I said, there were no shortage of revealing designs at the time yet somehow hers came out. So, there has to be something about it that clicked with people in a positive way.

There's context. There's always context. Even back to the first game, Lara's male foil, Larson, was sensibly dressed for expeditioning.

In the opening cut scene, she hikes through snowy mountains in a heavy shawl, before throwing it off to shoot wolves and reveal the hot pants.

luulubuu · Jul 7, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
But i think that should be fine though? There have been plenty of art and stories that talks about sexuality. I know there's a problem in games with using women as sex objects meant to sell to an audience, but sex in games i feel should be discussed as long as it's equal and respectful? Not even saying that most of the examples in this thread are that lol.

Exactly. You got totally my point. Sex, sexuality, problems related to sex, violence and every other variant should be a subject to discuss and a matter to learn in every aspect of life, then it should be treated in media and then in videogames, the problem comes when is it used as a marketing stunt more than an aproximation to a debate.

But yeah, you totally got my point (lovely avatar btw)

Laiza · Jul 7, 2017

hououinkyouma00 said:
I have not meant to disrespect any females in this thread but my point still stands that designs arent automatically bad if they are sexy. I apologize if I have offended any females.

Referring to human beings as "females" instead of "female gamers" or "women" or even the not-really-great-but-still-not-as-bad "girls" is not a good look. Do not negate the subject or reduce us to animals, thank you very much.

Toxi · Jul 7, 2017

jiggle said:
Usually a fan of Nomura's work
But I'd like to know what he was smoking when this thing happened

cuate · Jul 7, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
I'm not saying that the women are solely sexualized, (although being able to self destruct 9S is a good example of how framing matters and that two or the same thing aren't necessarily equivalent:

Just that for the most part, the designs of women are more sexualized than the men. The guy who appears nude literally doesn't even have genitalia. Yet 2B for some reason is wearing a thong leotard that also has a cleavage window because reasons.

i like how his legs are freaking toothpicks whereas 2b thighs are bigger than her torso. so typical.

Gator86 · Jul 7, 2017

chrominance said:
Reboot Lara Croft: looks like a normal woman wearing a tank top and pants
(some of) GAF: BORING, NON-FEMININE, GREY, UNATTRACTIVE, LITERALLY THE WORST DESIGN

Basically. It's dumb as hell. It's not some abomination because she's not wearing that shit green tank top and those shorts.

Antiwhippy · Jul 7, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
The problem is that despite all of these sexualized designs, almost none of them have anything to do with any expression of genuine sexuality. Like, literally none.

Yea man the one woman in the game, (who's actually real), being burned alive and then being nicknamed Quiet and conveniently falling in love with the player because the story makes no fucking sense is awesome.

I mean i agree. Sex in games is still incredibly immature, both in presentation and the way it's explored.

Syf · Jul 7, 2017

I'd like to give a shoutout to Kerrigan's high heels in StarCraft 2, although I'm pretty okay with the rest of the design. Makes no sense why she suddenly has heels as a zerg lol.

JackelZXA · Jul 7, 2017

cabelhigh said:
Sure! Totally! I think that's a very valid critique. I think what I meant was that sexualized characters aren't inherently agent-less, but by framing them from a male perspective (i.e. as a sex object) it dimishes their agency and is no longer a female story but a story about a female told from the perspective of a man. See the controversial

Sansa/Ramsay Bolton rape scene

from Game of Thrones, where the story doesn't focus on how the woman feels about the horrific act being commited to her, but instead focuses on another man in the room and how it effects him.

There's nothing inherently bad about a female character who is sexy who also has a complex character arc and uses her 'sexiness' to further that arc; it's when the sexiness is the sum total of her character, or gets used to demean her character or diminutize her in relation to the male characters, who aren't sexualized, that I believe things begin to break down.

I'd say the sansa seen is telling both stories simultaneously. Reek's story is visual (as he is robbed of his speech and agency) and Sansa's is told through the audio. They only show the visuals of her story briefly and then cut away but still maintain the audio. It'd be very difficult to show a traumatic rape without any sexualizing imagery, actually. Her resolve is broken when it becomes a physical situation, so I'm not sure depicting the visual aspect of that, even on her face, would have done more than make things worse. I think restricting her scene to audio allows them to create a shared scene where two stories and two perspectives are being told at once in the last few seconds of the episode. They're both robbed of their agency in one way or another, and I don't think in the context of how the story progresses from there into the next season for the both of them that anything is particularly lost in how it was handled.

bloodforge · Jul 7, 2017

yanipheonu said:
It isn't just the usual anime Otaku pander. It isn't just the stripperiffic outfit.

It's the little bulge on skin under the string on the hip that makes it that much more skeevy. :/ Gotta make sure we know it's really tight.

Oh it gets worse. If you watch the gameplay demo the back of her shorts is actually see through so you can see her thong.

DiipuSurotu · Jul 7, 2017

jiggle said:
Usually a fan of Nomura's work
But I'd like to know what he was smoking when this thing happened

Judging from the timeline he must have been smoking his scrapped design documents for Versus XIII

Toxi said:

...including the trash basket

Jacqli · Jul 7, 2017

Plumpbiscuit said:
[IMG.]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--9HuQfeLDVg/UZA8iXczdNI/AAAAAAAAAUg/pPnu6KtVPM0/s1600/composite2TR9.png[/IMG]

Bland, boring, generic, grey, uninspired, uncreative, unattractive, non-feminine, terrible.

I think her design is fine and I find her quite attractive, the problem lies in her personality and that is a much more serious issue in my opinion.

Anyway, my answer is Haydee:

I bought the game and no regrets. And while the mod section has some incredible models (like 2B) and recently also modded maps, I am always surprised when I see breast enlarger mods. Or the pubic hair option. 10/10

Foldedpencil · Jul 7, 2017

Gooch: The Destroyer said:
Actually, I love this character. Glad to hear her voice actress in Persona 5. Best girl.

This drawing is amazing! Not a fan of over sexualized designs, but this makes me want to play this game. Better than the design of the girl currently in all the Persona 5 promotional materials.

Korigama · Jul 7, 2017

Savitar said:
Based on Nintendo's previous actions they're likely to "color in" some of the bare parts of her to make her look like she's wearing more clothing.

NoA (who dictated that sort of thing to Atlus when they were localizing #FE) aren't localizing Xenoblade 2, NoE are.

psychowave · Jul 7, 2017

Machina said:
I just knew this thread would revolve around sexualization more than anything else, because why wouldn't it lol

Maybe if game devs stopped making 90% of female characters needlessly sexualized we could talk about something else.

Crossing Eden · Jul 7, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
I mean i agree. Sex in games is still incredibly immature, both in presentation and the way it's explored.

And that immaturity bred a really immature subset of the audience that complains about SJWs/PC ruining their games because "muh titties."

psychowave said:
Maybe if game devs stopped making 90% of female characters needlessly sexualized we could talk about something else.

Ain't that the truth. Consider how differently these threads go when it's focused on the men of gaming, a LOT more to say about that with a lot less intellectual dishonesty and even worse, more varied designs...

Laiza · Jul 7, 2017

SolidSnakex said:
Well, I think that gets into another discussion. Is showing skin inherently bad? With the two current character designs threads we see that there's some frame of thought that fully covered = good while revealing = bad. Like I said, there were no shortage of revealing designs at the time yet somehow hers came out. So, there has to be something about it that clicked with people in a positive way.

Of course it's not inherently bad. It's just that,

1. in the greater context of female character representation in the whole of society, it's basically the default to expose excessive and unnecessary amounts of skin

2. this is often done in spite of any characterization, cheapening the character's sense of agency and making her look dumb

3. this is also often done regardless of how the male equivalent characters are treated, to the point where there is a visible and egregious double standard.

Address all three of these and you can have characters running literally butt-naked for all I care.

zoukka · Jul 7, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
The problem is that despite all of these sexualized designs, almost none of them have anything to do with any expression of genuine sexuality. Like, literally none.

Might have to do with the fact that sexuality much like any other subject isn't seriously/maturely being explored in video games 99% of the time. In those rare games they are, these designs are much more sensitive and deservedly scrutinized. In a game like Dragons Crown they are completely fine though.

Alex_Mexico · Jul 7, 2017

E_Darkness said:
I see skindentation, that means it's a good design.

What the hell is a "skindentation"?

Papo Swing · Jul 7, 2017

I knew Quiet would come up, but I don't agree. If anything it is the worst explanation given for a skimpy outfit. In the end it is just a bikini right?

Some of the others here are just ridiculous. Ivy from Soul Calibur is even more offensive if you think about it.

Mobile Suit Gooch · Jul 7, 2017

Foldedpencil said:
This drawing is amazing! Not a fan of over sexualized designs, but this makes me want to play this game. Better than the design of the girl currently in all the Persona 5 promotional materials.

Huh. So Marie made someone want to play Persona 4 Golden...Well, I'll be damned.

Common Knowledge · Jul 7, 2017

Turin said:
Honestly went over my head for years until someone pointed it out a little while ago.

Somebody needs to explain this one to me. I've seen it several times before and for the life of me I can't picture it as anything but her bare crotch showing. What is it really?

NorthAndSouth · Jul 7, 2017

Ugh. The designs of females in Xenoblade Chronicles are just SO bad. It kept me from enjoying the game honestly. Just armour set after set of boob windows, bikinis etc etc. So strange because the actual characters themselves are pretty fantastically written.

Fiora's is so annoying, like her "body" isn't even human? But no worries, she's still got boobs to show off at every opportunity.

Also come on. Sharla is a Healer, so why is the emphasis always on her chest? What's worse is that the same armour sets on male characters COVER THEM COMPLETELY. LIKE ARMOUR SHOULD. You know, for like protecting?

Xenoblade X did so much better, but it seems like Xenoblade 2 will be reverting back to the series roots.

Like this. This is an abomination. She literally looks deformed.

DwightSchruting · Jul 7, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
Hello, i'm a mechanic, my body is constantly gonna be exposed to substances that are not good for skin at all, I literally am never seen fixing a car, I do however, have scenes where I get to wipe the windshield:

Hi, I'm the ultimate culmination of my creator's decade long downward spiral when it comes to the representation of women, I literally can't talk or wear clothing or else i'll fucking die, btw, I will literally strip what little clothing I have and pose for you like a fucking animal with dead eyes if you take me with on your missions, please pay no attention to my rape scenes or the fact that I literally spend large chunks of the game inside a cage:

Hi, my designer literally gave up:

Hi, I'm a racist stereotype where turning evil literally turns my skin dark, gives me tribal tattoos, and increases my breast size, I literally turned evil because the hero who i've never met won't love me:

What? Also uncreative literally compared to what?. A long running line of tit ninjas?

This is the best post on this thread hands down.

Also yeah wtf? Lara Croft isn't feminine and that's a bad thing? She's clearly a woman, what else did u need? A pink head wrap?

PK Gaming · Jul 7, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
The problem is that despite all of these sexualized designs, almost none of them have anything to do with any expression of genuine sexuality. Like, literally none.

It does. 100%

The androids are obsessed with sex and violence. The machines too, are similarly obsessed with sex and violence, and there's a particularly famous sequence where

the machine lifeforms imitate the various different ways humans have sex

. One of the androids is very clearly sexually frustrated, because of their

seemingly unrequited feelings towards 2B.

The following is an excerpt from an excellent Nier: Automata analysis. Major Nier: Automata spoilers follow:

After 2Bs death, 9S launches a rage-fueled vendetta against the machines and A2. As he grieves over her, his behavior grows increasingly erratic and violent. The true perversity of this rampage isnt revealed until just before the end of the third playthrough. It turns out that 2B was, in actuality, a specialized Executioner unit designed to murder 9S when he inevitably discovered the truth about humanitys extinction. In fact, 2B had already killed 9S several times in the past he just lacks total recollection of his previous incarnations, or willfully denies it. 2Bs cold demeanor towards 9S, her constant insistence that emotions are prohibited whenever he tried to get close to her (despite the fact that none of the other androids, 2B included, abide by this rule in any other context), all serve to shield her from the pain of her murderous duty.

In one of the games most controversial scenes, Adam captures 9S and, via a text-only interface, expounds on his obsession with conflict and hatred. Immediately following his diagnosis of 9S as someone who wants to both destroy everything and be loved by all, Adam drops this bombshell:

Youre thinking about how much you want to **** 2B, arent you?

At face value, most players assume that the censored word is fuck. But other instances of fuck go completely uncensored its an M-rated (17+) game, after all. However, after finishing the story, many have posited that the four letter word is, in fact, kill, an idea infinitely more profane and more likely to be rejected by 9Ss mind. The Japanese text is likewise obscured. The ambiguity of the statement, especially considering Adams preface, enhances the overlap between ideas of sex and violence among Automatas cast. 9S wants to love 2B, physically and emotionally, but still struggles to repress the lifetimes of anguish shes caused him. The irreconcilable nature of the conflict pushes his grief to insanity.

So yeah, there is a genuine expression of sexuality in Nier: Automata. It's not lip service.

Antiwhippy · Jul 7, 2017

NorthAndSouth said:
This is an abomination. She literally looks deformed.

I mean the dude looks deformed as well. It's just bad at in general lol.

UtterlyPerplexed · Jul 7, 2017

Reboot Lara Croft brought up as a serious entry in a thread clearly titled "Worst Female Character Design in Gaming". God forbid a female lead (who by all intents and purposes is still very comfortably attractive!) accompanied by the claim that it's not a very feminine design. Now I've seen it all...

Let's now go over and see what happens when Tetsuya Nomura is going through his early-mid 2000s phase and has clearly stopped giving a fuck. Enter Shalua Rui from Dirge of Cerberus:

Code:

[IMG]https://abload.de/img/bmsuo.jpg[/IMG]

Stop laughing at the back. This is a serious game with a serious story and she's a serious scientist with a troubled family backstory or some shit, I dunno, I can't bloody remember. Is she the worst in all of gaming? Probably not. She's likely nowhere near the most egregious example I could have pulled, but I just had to bring up what happens when Nomura isn't on a leash.

Kinsei · Jul 7, 2017

Common Knowledge said:
Somebody needs to explain this one to me. I've seen it several times before and for the life of me I can't picture it as anything but her bare crotch showing. What is it really?

She's wearing like three layers. The pink suit that looks like it could be skin, the red sleeves, and the weird yellow half overalls.

It's atrocious.

Toxi · Jul 7, 2017

Morrigan Stark said:
I'm with you. MH armour designs have always been atrocious for both genders, but significantly worse for females.

The worst is the Wroggi set. If you're a dude, you get to be a cool cowboy, but if you're a girl, you get to be... a stripper?

SMH

I do like this fan redesign.

monster_hunter_wroggi_redesign___character_sheet_by_statyk94-d9vd07s.jpg

I think there are some pretty good female armors in Monster Hunter though. Gore Magala and Zamtrios come to mind.

Foldedpencil · Jul 7, 2017

Gooch: The Destroyer said:
Huh. So Marie made someone want to play Persona 4 Golden...Well, I'll be damned.

Is it really surprising? Who is the artist, I think their style is very appealing.

Antiwhippy · Jul 7, 2017

PK Gaming said:
It does. 100%

The androids are obsessed with sex and violence. The machines too, are similarly obsessed with sex and violence, and there's a particularly famous sequence where

the machine lifeforms imitate the various different ways humans have sex

. One of the androids is very clearly sexually frustrated, because of their

seemingly unrequited feelings towards 2B.

The following is an excerpt from an excellent Nier: Automata analysis. Major Nier: Automata spoilers follow:

After 2Bs death, 9S launches a rage-fueled vendetta against the machines and A2. As he grieves over her, his behavior grows increasingly erratic and violent. The true perversity of this rampage isnt revealed until just before the end of the third playthrough. It turns out that 2B was, in actuality, a specialized Executioner unit designed to murder 9S when he inevitably discovered the truth about humanitys extinction. In fact, 2B had already killed 9S several times in the past he just lacks total recollection of his previous incarnations, or willfully denies it. 2Bs cold demeanor towards 9S, her constant insistence that emotions are prohibited whenever he tried to get close to her (despite the fact that none of the other androids, 2B included, abide by this rule in any other context), all serve to shield her from the pain of her murderous duty.

In one of the games most controversial scenes, Adam captures 9S and, via a text-only interface, expounds on his obsession with conflict and hatred. Immediately following his diagnosis of 9S as someone who wants to both destroy everything and be loved by all, Adam drops this bombshell:

Youre thinking about how much you want to **** 2B, arent you?

At face value, most players assume that the censored word is fuck. But other instances of fuck go completely uncensored its an M-rated (17+) game, after all. However, after finishing the story, many have posited that the four letter word is, in fact, kill, an idea infinitely more profane and more likely to be rejected by 9Ss mind. The Japanese text is likewise obscured. The ambiguity of the statement, especially considering Adams preface, enhances the overlap between ideas of sex and violence among Automatas cast. 9S wants to love 2B, physically and emotionally, but still struggles to repress the lifetimes of anguish shes caused him. The irreconcilable nature of the conflict pushes his grief to insanity.

So yeah, there is a genuine expression of sexuality in Nier: Automata. It's not lip service.

To add to that, a certain scene in ending A is also pretty sexually charged, only coming from 2B, showing that she herself has unfulfilled desires as well that are born from her duties.

orborborb · Jul 7, 2017

Some of these are bad, a lot of them are not, but only one did I dislike enough to prevent me from enjoying the game.

Sorry, Bayonetta fans

EmiPrime · Jul 7, 2017

hououinkyouma00 said:
I have not meant to disrespect any females in this thread but my point still stands that designs arent automatically bad if they are sexy. I apologize if I have offended any females.

Thank you Mr Ferengi.

Mobile Suit Gooch · Jul 7, 2017

Foldedpencil said:
Is it really surprising? Who is the artist, I think their style is very appealing.

Shigenori Soejima.

Alex_Mexico · Jul 7, 2017

Trickster said:
Still don't know how what NRS was smoking when they made this

Oh my goodness what the fucking hell is that?? What game is that from? That pic is from the Alpha build right? It has to be.

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