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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED

Pasedo

Member
Buy what you want and be happy with it. But just be aware that if you come to a discussion forum asking opinions on which is a better TV, you may not be happy with the answers. Your viewing environment and habits may align with LCDs strengths and that is fine. But with that said, I am quite sure you must have, at minimum, an inkling suspicion OLEDs are objectively and measurably better than all the various varieties of LCDs (even the QLED ones)

This is not breaking news.

Yeh youre all right. Truth is in my eyes i like what ive seen from the Sammy Q9. Even more so than the Sony lcd lineup. To me the colours pop out and bitch slaps me across the face. I guess im looking for technical validation to reinforce the impending parting of my hard earned cash and that somewhere along the line the manufacturer wasnt targeting me with mind altering microwave technology that tricks my eyes into believing its a better picture.
 

Madness

Member
Yeh youre all right. Truth is in my eyes i like what ive seen from the Sammy Q9. Even more so than the Sony lcd lineup. To me the colours pop out and bitch slaps me across the face. I guess im looking for technical validation to reinforce the impending parting of my hard earned cash and that somewhere along the line the manufacturer wasnt targeting me with mind altering microwave technology that tricks my eyes into believing its a better picture.

To be honest, the Q9F has a near perfect DCI, but factually, there is no validation you will find. The A1E and C7 are superior televisions in a lot of ways. It is just the way current technology is. If I could get an LCD that has double the black levels of the Z9D, and like 4000 nits of brightness, I would get it over an OLED. But there is no television like that. And televisions that come close are so high in price, I would rather get the OLED. But in the end, buy what you want/like/need. I always gauge price versus picture quality versus utility. As a gamer who wanted 4K and HDR, a 65" KS8000 at $1079 last year was a no-brainer with its input lag. I actually find the A1E to be much better looking than the C7 even when calibrated, but the cost difference isn't worth it. Would rather get a C7 and get an Atmos soundbar and maybe a dedicated UHD player for same price etc.

Samsung Tizen is garbage as an os. Their build quality has gone downhill. Honestly, look into the Sony X930/940E if you prefer the nit brightness. But I just don't know where you are seeing this massive color variation tbat blows you away with the Samsung. Especially when calibrated.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Yeh youre all right. Truth is in my eyes i like what ive seen from the Sammy Q9. Even more so than the Sony lcd lineup. To me the colours pop out and bitch slaps me across the face. I guess im looking for technical validation to reinforce the impending parting of my hard earned cash and that somewhere along the line the manufacturer wasnt targeting me with mind altering microwave technology that tricks my eyes into believing its a better picture.

To be fair, the Samsung QLEDs are great TVs with a lot going for them. The problem as I see it is they are too expensive for what you get. A Q9 is OLED money, which is just crazy talk imo
 

Pasedo

Member
To be honest, the Q9F has a near perfect DCI, but factually, there is no validation you will find. The A1E and C7 are superior televisions in a lot of ways. It is just the way current technology is. If I could get an LCD that has double the black levels of the Z9D, and like 4000 nits of brightness, I would get it over an OLED. But there is no television like that. And televisions that come close are so high in price, I would rather get the OLED. But in the end, buy what you want/like/need. I always gauge price versus picture quality versus utility. As a gamer who wanted 4K and HDR, a 65" KS8000 at $1079 last year was a no-brainer with its input lag. I actually find the A1E to be much better looking than the C7 even when calibrated, but the cost difference isn't worth it. Would rather get a C7 and get an Atmos soundbar and maybe a dedicated UHD player for same price etc.

Samsung Tizen is garbage as an os. Their build quality has gone downhill. Honestly, look into the Sony X930/940E if you prefer the nit brightness. But I just don't know where you are seeing this massive color variation tbat blows you away with the Samsung. Especially when calibrated.

I guess its what our individual eyes are receptive and sensitive to. Like how some people dont notice a decent amount of AA over the best AA in a game. Some dont even care for any AA and still think the game looks amazing. Like Nintendo games. Perhaps the general public doesnt have this type of receptiveness to the slight variations within the top flagship models. Id probably classify myself in this category as im more a gaming/pc hardware guy and know very little about television and its tech. In saying this forums like this and reading about arguments and discussion from real people most definitely helps my decision. So thanks Gaf. Btw still haven't decided. Perhaps hold off to next years line up.
 

BumRush

Member
I guess its what our individual eyes are receptive and sensitive to. Like how some people dont notice a decent amount of AA over the best AA in a game. Some dont even care for any AA and still think the game looks amazing. Like Nintendo games. Perhaps the general public doesnt have this type of receptiveness to the slight variations within the top flagship models. Id probably classify myself in this category as im more a gaming/pc hardware guy and know very little about television and its tech. In saying this forums like this and reading about arguments and discussion from real people most definitely helps my decision. So thanks Gaf. Btw still haven't decided. Perhaps hold off to next years line up.

Just want to ask you again since you didn't answer last time. Have you seen the Samsung in conditions that will mimic your home environment?
 

Pasedo

Member
Just want to ask you again since you didn't answer last time. Have you seen the Samsung in conditions that will mimic your home environment?

I have. Had to find a more well lit up store. Lots of light goes into my lounge during the day and in the evening the area is fairly well lit up due to surrounding overhead lights. Im upgrading from a Panny Plasma btw and it just feels dull. Not sure if its just me or it does get dull over time.
 

koopas

Member
Just picked up a Samsung QLED (model QN55Q7FAMFXZC) along with a PS4 Pro.

In going in the settings on PS, beside the HDR setting it says 'Not Supported'

I'm sure HDR is supported on this model TV. I can activate something on the TV that forces HDR but I'm not sure. Am I missing something here?
 

Yjynx

Member
Here is my question about this though: On the TCL P607, game mode turns off the FALD (local dimming). It has better input lag, but my understanding of the x900e is that game mode keeps the FALD on. Doesn't FALD improve the quality of the HDR?

I don't have a 4k TV yet, but one of the reasons I was leaning toward the x900e, even with the higher price, is because in theory it should have a better HDR picture in game mode. It also seems like the Sony set has really fantastic motion handling, amazing 1080p upscaling, and better grey uniformity.

But maybe I am just being seduced by these fancy specs. Has anyone actually seen the TCL P607 in person and been able to compare it to something higher end like the Sony x900e?
From other thread

I actually saw HZD on my friend TCL it looks weird? Perhaps because I use to saw it on sony ZD9 but can someone elaborate this. Can't explain it really well it lack the wow factor? Vibrant? can someone explain this?
 

Paragon

Member
Yes, it's an issue for any TV that will display 8 bit content with a 10 bit panel. It's just a fact of life, the same way watching standard definition content could often look worse on an HDTV, because the increase in resolution and ability to display more/better color exposed more imperfections in the picture.
This is why I am likely to stick with Sony for my next TV.
As far as I am aware, they are still the only manufacturer that has debanding processing built into the display.

Now that image you found is not typical of the sort of banding that you get as a result of video compression - it is significantly worse, because it's caused by S-Log3 gamma encoding. (I would assume, based on the filename)
As a result, I had to turn up the debanding to ridiculous levels to have any effect on this image, which does start blending detail in the darker areas of the picture too - that is not typical for debanding.
So please only compare the sky.

Though the results are not perfect, I think you could say that it's an improvement.
Original:
sourceszu63.jpg

Debanded:
debanded97uw3.jpg
Those dark bands that remain would typically not be visible at all; again, that's a result of your image being taken from an S-Log3 encoding issue, not video compression.

Here's an example taken from the original Planet Earth Blu-ray, which was known for bad banding issues:
Original:
sourcertqx8.png

Debanded:
debandingcboso.png

Every 8-bit source will benefit from debanding on a 10-bit display - even if there is no compression at all.
You could think of debanding as "upscaling", but for bit-depth instead of resolution.
Even when displaying a highly compressed 8-bit source on an 8-bit display, debanding still generally improves image quality.
 

torontoml

Member
So I just bought my B7 yesterday but wont have it unitl at least the 25th because I'm working.

My biggest question is about calibration, I've been using Disney's WOW disc for the last couple years with my 1080p TV. I imagine that will work well for anything not HDR10/DV.

How do I go about calibrating for HDR?
 

HooYaH

Member
Just picked up a Samsung QLED (model QN55Q7FAMFXZC) along with a PS4 Pro.

In going in the settings on PS, beside the HDR setting it says 'Not Supported'

I'm sure HDR is supported on this model TV. I can activate something on the TV that forces HDR but I'm not sure. Am I missing something here?

Need to turn on HDMI Ultra Color on the TV input.
 

J-Rzez

Member
Yeh still dont know man. What if they were paid off to use content which favoured oled or the oled screens were calibrated better. Any of these things could very easily tip results one way or the other. There could also be biases by the judges and the events crew who favour one tech over the other so they push their agenda of progressing oled development by ensuring all the right conditions are in place to make oled shine and ensuring the strengths of lcd advancement isnt being displayed to its fullest. Say you rigged it for qled by having an organiser use content that displays hdr content with very bright scenes, picks a video where it minimises bloom from the edge lit panel and ensures theres a fair amount of lighting in the room. Wouldn't people then say the qled looks better than the oled? Trust no one but what you see with your own eyes i say.

You can just go into an electronics store and look at the samsung and see it's flaws. Are best buy employees messing with the settings to make them look worse playing samsungs demo content? If anyone is employing shady tactics it's samsung's own marketing department.

As far as the judges they were back and forth over the E7 and A1E, then they stated one night the Sony looked better, the next, the E7. Regardless, when they viewed they were comparing to a super expensive mastering monitor and comparing directly to that.

By "fair amount of lighting" you would have to say a store showroom, with huge storefront windows during the brightest time of the day, and a massive amount of in store florescent lighting. But many people overestimate how bright their rooms really are.

Finally, I tested all these sets with my own content. You'd have to look really hard, find something super specific to find content to even consider the Q9 competitive, maybe. Play the most common content on it, it will lose to the OLEDs by many of people's eyes. That blooming/halo/flashlighting is present, especially when you view it in a magnolia where the lights are dimmed to more typical rooms. It's super bright edge lighting. What do you expect? It's a physical limitation. Even Sony's 930E will show this off compared to their lesser 900E because it's edge lit vs FALD.

Samsung really, really screwed up this year. I'm sure their QLED sales are tracking way lower than expected. The prices are dropping rapidly for a reason, their TV's are massively overpriced. When a 65" Q7 is $2800 and getting beat out by a $2000 X900E, there's problems. Their Q9 can't compete with the Sony, Panny, and LG OLEDs. And Sony has a better LED at every price point, many times cheaper at the same time.

They're going to have to take the L for 2017, or F in many people's eyes. My wondering is how they're going to come back for 2018? Will they have something that can compete with the OLEDs? Or are they stuck for the next few years now?

Anyways. Your money. You buy what you like. After all, you got to live with it, and you're paying for it.
 

e90Mark

Member
LG posted a FW update on their website for the C6 and E6 which adds support for HLG HDR among other things.

Do you know how long these usually take to be able to do updates from the TV itself for new FW? I did a check and my TV is saying no update found.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Do you know how long these usually take to be able to do updates from the TV itself for new FW? I did a check and my TV is saying no update found.

Ever since I installed the HDR Game mode update from the website the TV's software updater hasn't worked. It's all manual from here on out.
 

BlizzyAzz

Member
I can't seem to find that setting anywhere. Tizen TV

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qled-q7f-q7/settings

HDR SETTINGS
For watching HDR content via an HDMI input it is important to set the 'HDMI UHD Color' on for each HDMI input that will receive the HDR content. This will allow the HDMI port to transmit the bandwidth necessary for HDR. If the 'HDMI UHD Color' is not turned on, some devices might not see the Q7F as being HDR compatible. For HDR content, it is also preferable to set the 'Backlight' to max, set 'Local Dimming' to 'High' and set the 'Color Space Settings' to 'Auto' or 'Native', since HDR does not use the same color space as SDR content.

EDIT: https://youtu.be/voGmbaHfvZU?t=5m14s it should be under system settings "wrench symbol" HDMI UHD Color
 

kipsta

Member
Guys, i need help deciding between these two:

Samsung MU6100 43"
Sony KD43X7000E 43"

Both 4k, both HDR... I can't decide!
 
This is why I am likely to stick with Sony for my next TV.
As far as I am aware, they are still the only manufacturer that has debanding processing built into the display.

Now that image you found is not typical of the sort of banding that you get as a result of video compression - it is significantly worse, because it's caused by S-Log3 gamma encoding. (I would assume, based on the filename)
As a result, I had to turn up the debanding to ridiculous levels to have any effect on this image, which does start blending detail in the darker areas of the picture too - that is not typical for debanding.
So please only compare the sky.

Though the results are not perfect, I think you could say that it's an improvement.

Those dark bands that remain would typically not be visible at all; again, that's a result of your image being taken from an S-Log3 encoding issue, not video compression.

Here's an example taken from the original Planet Earth Blu-ray, which was known for bad banding issues:


Every 8-bit source will benefit from debanding on a 10-bit display - even if there is no compression at all.
You could think of debanding as "upscaling", but for bit-depth instead of resolution.
Even when displaying a highly compressed 8-bit source on an 8-bit display, debanding still generally improves image quality.

Fascinating.

For as prevalent as it seems like banding is, esp in this transitional period where not everything is yet in HDR, you'd think that would be a more standard feauture.

So debanding is on the A1E?
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
My Sony 65XBR900E showed up, and wow. I watched Planet Earth 2 4k, and what a difference from my Samsung Ku6300.

I highly recommend the tv.
 

KevinG

Member
FYI, DO NOT INSTALL THE LATEST USA LG OLED FIRMWARE. IT MESSED UP HDR GAME MODE, Which is now really dim.

Oh shoot. Thanks for this. Will avoid!

What's the firmware number so I can make sure to avoid it?

If it's 4.31.20, it's too late because my TV was set to automatic update.
 

Colbert

Banned
FYI, DO NOT INSTALL THE LATEST USA LG OLED FIRMWARE. IT MESSED UP HDR GAME MODE, Which is now really dim.

Can you please more specific about the firmware version number? Because my last update was end of June this year and I did not notice anything you describe there.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
My Sony 65XBR900E showed up, and wow. I watched Planet Earth 2 4k, and what a difference from my Samsung Ku6300.

I highly recommend the tv.

Nice, strongly considering the 55".

Have you tried any gaming? Is the input lag noticeable to you (if you're the kind of person who usually notices that)?
 

Mrbob

Member
Do you need an HDMI 2.0 cable for HDR content?

Get an 18gbps cable. I typically buy my cables from Monoprice, bought 4 cables for about 20 dollars shipped and they are doing the trick:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024021&p_id=15428&seq=1&format=2

Otherwise you can search for an 18gps cable from amazon too. If you run your devices through a receiver make sure to buy one extra cable on top of the ones you bought for your devices, as you'll have to run an hdmi out from your receiver to your tv.

Do we know how large UHD movies are usually in size?

Found a list of some sizes here:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=277330
 
When it comes to aspect ratio, always use Just Scam, right? And for gaming and most movies I choose Original, correct?

However just now I had this movie and it had a black border on the top of the screen. When I chose 16:9 it was full screen and proper. But in most other cases Original is the way to go?

OLED B6.
 

Macaco84

Member
I might be nitpicking but I have spotted a couple of vertical bands on my sony xe90 that are particularly noticeable during panning shots and even worse at an angle.

I don't know what to do with it. I already had to return a previous oled with a similar issue.

Is there such a thing as perfect screen uniformity on modern leds? Is minor banding acceptable? The problem is now I have spotted it I can't "unsee" it.
 

teiresias

Member
I might be nitpicking but I have spotted a couple of vertical bands on my sony xe90 that are particularly noticeable during panning shots and even worse at an angle.

I don't know what to do with it. I already had to return a previous oled with a similar issue.

Is there such a thing as perfect screen uniformity on modern leds? Is minor banding acceptable? The problem is now I have spotted it I can't "unsee" it.

The xe90 isn't an OLED TV unless I'm confused. I'm not sure if banding is something that happens on LEDs outside of backlight issues.

Banding on actual OLED panels is still not a completely solved problem though an acceptable panel shouldn't show them in most actual content.
 
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