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GotchaForce · Feb 28, 2011

Love Bioware rpgs: KOTOR, Jade Empire, ME1/2, heck even liked Sonic rpg (despite it's flaws). I spent 100+ hours in the original DA and that's without dlc content (well, if Shale counts). I see the same resentment towards "dumbing down" and "agro PR" that ME2 had and that turned out to be widely regarded as one of the best games of last year (best supporting cast since FF6 imo). I have faith in Bioware.

truly101 · Feb 28, 2011

Gvaz said:
Yeah, about that for DA2...

That's not from the demo, by the way. That's generally what you see from them posting about DA2 on the Bioware blog.

DA:O didn't have any fucking exploring either. That game was pretty linear in where your characters could go.

tmacairjordan87 · Feb 28, 2011

vocab said:
I think you are just mad that you never could play games that required a brain and working hands.

You're mistaking me not wanting to play old boring dice roll driven rpgs as not being able to. But again, whatever keeps your elitist ego inflated.

Xilium · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
I've spent the last six console generations playing games that you pull out of the box and put in the machine, then play. I've never seen anything like DA:O's bullshit. Yet when you look up how to fix all the bugs, there are answers that entail moving files around and installing mods.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles? There's only one truthful answer to that question.

End users can't fix bugs on consoles. If they could, they would.

Also, many PC problems can be associated with outdated drivers or under spec'd rigs. The games aren't nearly as unstable as some would have you believe (unless it's from Bethesda/Obsidian) but since PC gamers have the capability to fix bugs or bad design choices, they tend to do so.

Gvaz · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
DA:O didn't have any fucking exploring either. That game was pretty linear in where your characters could go.

I never said it did, I was just contesting that DA2 doesn't have any exploring, and it looks like this aspect carried over from DA:O.

Gully State · Feb 28, 2011

I've had no problems with DA:Origins on PC. And let's not kid ourselves, gamebreaking bugs exists on console only games too. In Madden 06, there were 2 game breaking bugs that totally ruined multiplayer. One was that presnap receiver icons were swapped b/t FB and RB for running plays specifically and fatigue not working right as well. Consequently EA Tiburon's solution to this was to tell the community to play multiplayer by turning fatigue off.

truly101 · Feb 28, 2011

So this will be the first locked OT before the game comes out? Revenge of Shit Mountain indeed.

Ashodin · Feb 28, 2011

Ahahahaha, they are at 1 mil 176 thousand, there was no way they would have gotten that today AT ALL.

It was 900,000 two hours ago!

The Technomancer · Feb 28, 2011

Hm, I'm going to watch this thread carefully. As much as many people will cry "omg dumbed down", there will be at least a few who, after playing past the tutorial, will be able to articulate if they feel the new combat removes depth.

Mister_Bubbles · Feb 28, 2011

Brilliant.

ElectricBlue187 · Feb 28, 2011

tmacairjordan87 said:
You're mistaking me not wanting to play old boring dice roll driven rpgs as not being able to. But again, whatever keeps your elitist ego inflated.

So....why exactly are you interested in this game? I've heard God of War 3 is pretty fuckin sick if you just want to mash a few buttons for fuckawesome combos brah and it doesn't have all this lame-o dice rolling fantasy rpg bs either, you'll love it.

tmacairjordan87 · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
So this will be the first locked OT before the game comes out? Revenge of Shit Mountain indeed.

Why? It was created to troll and whine about the game and that's 90% of what's going on here. If anything, a new one will be needed for people will actually play the game to seriously talk about it.

Jinfash · Feb 28, 2011

Is this the real OT? I'm confused.

dalemurphy · Feb 28, 2011

Gvaz said:
Yeah, about that for DA2...

That's not from the demo, by the way. That's generally what you see from them posting about DA2 on the Bioware blog.

I'm referring to the towns, treasure, side quests, etc. The dungeons in Origins were nothing special and were usually slightly confusing and repetitive, so making those more straightforward is fine with me.

The Technomancer · Feb 28, 2011

tmacairjordan87 said:
Why? It was created to troll and whine about the game and that's 90% of what's going on here. If anything, a new one will be needed for people will actually play the game to seriously talk about it.

I really think its going to get better when the game is out and people actually have something to talk about. This is basically just pre-game banter.

Mr_Zombie · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
I've spent the last six console generations playing games that you pull out of the box and put in the machine, then play. I've never seen anything like DA:O's bullshit. Yet when you look up how to fix all the bugs, there are answers that entail moving files around and installing mods.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles? There's only one truthful answer to that question.

Yeah, because there are no game patches on consoles nowadays... oh wait, yes there are, so you're wrong. The point is, often PC gamers can fix things themselves, through fiddling with files or unofficial fixes, mods etc. Console gamers don't have that luxary and have to wait for official patches.

tmacairjordan87 · Feb 28, 2011

ElectricBlue187 said:
So....why exactly are you interested in this game? I've heard God of War 3 is pretty fuckin sick if you just want to mash a few buttons for fuckawesome combos brah and it doesn't have all this lame-o dice rolling fantasy rpg bs either, you'll love it.

Why are YOU here? I'm going to play the game and am slightly looking forward to it. You and many others have made it clear you won't. Brah.

iavi · Feb 28, 2011

tmacairjordan87 said:
Whatever elitist reponse you want to say, it doesn't bring them back. If it makes you feel better then run with it. I'm personally in favor of it. Watching gameplay rather than participating in it is not why I play games, though they didn't go far enough in DA2. I still think they're being hamstrung by trying to appease an extremely small base while at the same time appeasing to console players, and while doing so pissed the small base off anyway.

While I agree with you, to some extent, throwing away what made Dragon Age Dragon Age is NOT what should've been done, and it hasn't been. That's a silly revolutionist mindset that really just means you want to play a different IP altogether.

kai3345 · Feb 28, 2011

tmacairjordan87 said:
You're mistaking me not wanting to play old boring dice roll driven rpgs as not being able to. But again, whatever keeps your elitist ego inflated.

Ok, then don't fucking play them.

But quit saying "Gamez need to be moar EZ" because developers are going to listen, and theyre going to think thats. what people want. Theres a million fucking action games out there, go play one of those. But, like you said, RPGs are few and far between these days, so quit trying to fucking ruin them.

Lostconfused · Feb 28, 2011

The_Technomancer said:
I really think its going to get better when the game is out and people actually have something to talk about. This is basically just pre-game banter.

Pretty much. The demo was a poor show so the latest bit of information left the discussion on a sour note.

Karish · Feb 28, 2011

Best OP in GAF history.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

vocab said:
Seriously, you're the biggest troll in this thread. Making shit up to prove that you have no clue about PC gaming. Good job.

You got me. I didn't really have to do that.

Because it was on a console!

Xilium said:
End users can't fix bugs on consoles. If they could, they would.

I'm glad they can't, because if they could, developers would be a lot lazier, and there would be a lot more bugs for them to fix. Like the ones BioWare left in Dragon Age, because they're accustomed to the PC environment where end users are willing to fix them.

Mr_Zombie said:
Yeah, because there are no game patches on consoles nowadays... oh wait, yes there are, so you're wrong. The point is, often PC gamers can fix things themselves, through fiddling with files or unofficial fixes, mods etc. Console gamers don't have that luxary and have to wait for official patches.

I'd rather not have to debug their game OR wait for a patch. Like console gaming was before this generation, and still is for the most part.

WanderingWind · Feb 28, 2011

kai3345 said:
Ok, then don't fucking play them.

But quit saying "Gamez need to be moar EZ" because developers are going to listen, and theyre going to think thats. what people want. Theres a million fucking action games out there, go play one of those. But, like you said, RPGs are few and far between these days, so quit trying to fucking ruin them.

Word.

Red · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
I've spent the last six console generations playing games that you pull out of the box and put in the machine, then play. I've never seen anything like DA:O's bullshit. Yet when you look up how to fix all the bugs, there are answers that entail moving files around and installing mods.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles? There's only one truthful answer to that question.

You're completely missing the point. Of course fixing problems on PC is more common, because it is im-fucking-possible to do it on consoles. If there's a bug with your game, you simply have to deal with it. In some cases that means not being able to play the damn thing at all (who here remembers Dead Rising 1's freezing problem?).

PC gives you the ability to fix those problems.

Duane Cunningham said:
You got me. I didn't really have to do that.

Because it was on a console!

I'm glad they can't, because if they could, developers would be a lot lazier, and there would be a lot more bugs for them to fix. Like the ones BioWare left in Dragon Age, because they're accustomed to the PC environment where end users are willing to fix them.

I'd rather not have to debug their game OR wait for a patch. Like console gaming was before this generation, and still is for the most part.

Kinspiracy · Feb 28, 2011

Haha that was hilarious. Love the A A A A gif.

With that said, this is a day 1 for me. I loved the demo, and I've liked or loved every Bioware title I've played.

Rahxephon91 · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
I think the issue is that the masses are stupid, so a game that panders with them in mind is by default a negative. Which is why DA2 is a button masher with graphics that are on a sega CD level.

People who use the word "massess" are really annoying. Yeah, because you are above everyone when it comes to taste. And really graphics like the Sega Cd? This is just getting silly now.

wow tam banned? Wasn't he a jr. Tough luck amigo. How many more will this thread consume?

I did actually really find the op funny. Wish we had more threads poking fun at games.

loganclaws · Feb 28, 2011

tmacairjordan87 said:
You're mistaking me not wanting to play old boring dice roll driven rpgs as not being able to. But again, whatever keeps your elitist ego inflated.

I don't usually do this but you seem really confused. First off, drop that elitist bs right now since it's the lowest form of rebuttal and it doesn't help your argument the least bit. You seem to have no grasp on what the issue at hand is.

When you strip a game of its core elements that define its genre, the game is no longer in that genre and the entire experience is diluted. Fans of WRPGs generally appreciate the level of player input in the overall experience (C.H.O.I.C.E.), so the more choice is stripped from the player the further away the game slips from being a good RPG. Of course companies can always appeal to the lowest common denominator (you) and get away with it because you're totally fine with the game playing itself.

itxaka · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
You got me. I didn't really have to do that.

Because it was on a console!

I'm glad they can't, because if they could, developers would be a lot lazier, and there would be a lot more bugs for them to fix. Like the ones BioWare left in Dragon Age, because they're accustomed to the PC environment where end users are willing to fix them.

Wow. You dont really have a clue about what you are talking about do you?

Do you know what do consoles have now that they didnt have before? Internet connection. Now think about that and try to link it with the increase in bugs this gen.

Mr_Zombie · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Like console gaming was before this generation, and still is for the most part.

Here's a list of game breaking bugs from Television Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreakingBug
Read it and wake up from your dream of bugless console games. Just because you haven't encounter them doesn't mean there were none.

The Technomancer · Feb 28, 2011

Yikes, he went down fast. I kind of wish he hadn't, Junior or not he was kinda refreshing.

Sir Garbageman · Feb 28, 2011

To point this thread in another direction, what class do you guys plan on playing and what type of party composition? It's pretty clear what roles each of the party members will be filling from the info reveled and the demo.

I'm thinking of using my same strategy from DA1 and going 2 mages, 1 tank, 1 dual wielding rogue.

So my party will probably be:

Main PC spirit healer / force mage
Anders
Aveline
Isabela

WanderingWind · Feb 28, 2011

loganclaws said:
I don't usually do this but you seem really confused. First off, drop that elitist bs right now since it's the lowest form of rebuttal and it doesn't help your argument the least bit. You seem to have no grasp on what the issue at hand is.

When you strip a game of its core elements that define its genre, the game is no longer in that genre and the entire experience is diluted. Fans of WRPGs generally appreciate the lever of player input in the overall experience (C.H.O.I.C.E.), so the more choice is stripped from the player the further away the game slips from being a good RPG. Of course companies can always appeal to the lowest common denominator (you) and get away with it because you're totally fine with the game playing itself.

Yeah...you also can't chide somebody for throwing around "elitist" and then go on to call them the lowest common denominator without coming across as a dick.

EDIT: Aw. He got banned? I liked that junior.

Snuggles · Feb 28, 2011

Wow, didn't see that coming.

This is probably the wrong thread for this, but I am actually kind of curious about the extent of the differences between PC and console versions this time around. It was pretty major with Origins as we all I know, but I imagine that there must be a lot more parity this time around.

I only ask because I could just rent it for PS3 and get the gist of it without having to wait for a PC price drop, that would be the perfect solution for me.

Aw. He got banned? I liked that junior.

Heh, poor jmac must not have realized that he was doing one of the most ill advised things a junior can do on the gaming side. I guess some just don't have what it takes.

GuitarAtomik · Feb 28, 2011

Big Baby Buddha said:
Yessir I'm sure. Sword & Board and 2 Hander are the only weapon trees. The rest are general warrior trees and specializations.

Here's the thread on the official board that goes through all the trees. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6090138

Ok, maybe I was looking at mistaking the Two-Handed tree for Dual-Wielding.

After looking a bit through that thread, it seems like they just re-shuffled/added skills to be more specific to weapon styles (ie backstabbing being a part of the Dual-Wield tree). I did play as a warrior that switched between Sword & Shield and Dual-Wield so I feel the pain there. That said, I really like the new abilities (from the Rogue class) so I'll wait to see how it all integrates in the full game before judging it worse or better.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

Crunched said:
You're completely missing the point. Of course fixing problems on PC is more common, because it is im-fucking-possible to do it on consoles. If there's a bug with your game, you simply have to deal with it. In some cases that means not being able to play the damn thing at all (who here remembers Dead Rising 1's freezing problem?).

PC gives you the ability to fix those problems.

Okay look, I get it. You're correct. If I willingly bought a broken product for whatever reason (read the reviews and still bought it), and the choices are A. I can't fix it, or B. I CAN fix it, then yes. Of course I'd rather have the means to fix it.

However, I'm saying that PC developers know their audience has the ability to fix it, and take advantage of this fact sometimes. Console developers don't have this luxury and as a result, there are far less crapped up, buggy games.

Gully State · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
I'd rather not have to debug their game OR wait for a patch. Like console gaming was before this generation, and still is for the most part.

It wasn't and it isn't...

In Madden 06, there were 2 game breaking bugs that totally ruined multiplayer. One was that presnap receiver icons were swapped b/t FB and RB for running plays specifically and fatigue not working right as well. Consequently EA Tiburon's solution to this was to tell the community to play multiplayer by turning fatigue off.

Door2Dawn · Feb 28, 2011

Video game snobbery. I think I've officially seen everything.

The Technomancer · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
However, I'm saying that PC developers know their audience has the ability to fix it, and take advantage of this fact sometimes. Console developers don't have this luxury and as a result, there are far less crapped up, buggy games.

That was true last gen and before. But the same mentality of "we can patch it" has infected the consoles to a degree over the last four years.

Coxswain · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
You mean like the ability to upgrade specific skills and alter the equipment of your party? Or a simple macro can complete the demo? Or the huge limitation in what one can wear or use? Or auto attack-loot-approach?

Considering how shallow and largely inconsequential the "skill" system in DAO was, no, it's not a particularly good example of depth. Equipment I haven't been following closely enough to have an informed opinion on, but without knowing anything about it, 1) Not every permutation of equipment adds depth, and 2) Only the mechanical changes are required to preserve depth; it doesn't matter whether you can visually swap armour or not, if the effects are obtained via enchantment or slotting runes or whatever.

The macro is a stupid point and shame on you for dredging it up repeatedly; as I said earlier, the only reason you can't do the exact same thing with DAO (on the same difficulty level as the DA2 level, and in the equivalent stages of the game that the demo is set) is that it doesn't have a Select Nearest Target hotkey.

Your second and third points are Greek to me; either blame it on me not following the game closely outside of what I can play, or that they sound mostly like restatements of the first two points and/or things that aren't particularly different between either DA game.

truly101 · Feb 28, 2011

Door2Dawn said:
Video game snobbery. I think I've officially seen everything.

You mean you haven't encountered video game snobbery before now?

Killzig · Feb 28, 2011

Sir Garbageman said:
To point this thread in another direction, what class do you guys plan on playing and what type of party composition? It's pretty clear what roles each of the party members will be filling from the info reveled and the demo.

I'm thinking of using my same strategy from DA1 and going 2 mages, 1 tank, 1 dual wielding rogue.

So my party will probably be:

Main PC spirit healer / force mage
Anders
Aveline
Isabela

I had enough of Anders in Awakenings so I'll probably roll a mage and go with Carver, the floating Orbs, and Aveline.

Does anyone know how they're handling lockpicking in this one? If anyone can bust locks I'll probably ignore rogues altogether and just take another warrior or mage with me.

GuitarAtomik said:
That said, I really like the new abilities (from the Rogue class) so I'll wait to see how it all integrates in the full game before judging it worse or better.

Fair enough, I'm sure you can see why some people feel a little shorted though. I'm curious to see how it all plays out too.

Gully State · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Console developers don't have this luxury and as a result, there are far less crapped up, buggy games.

Console community doesn't have the ability to debug yet buggy broken games are still released on console...(ie- Fallout New Vegas, NBA 2K series, etc...)...Part of the reason why I do most of my gaming on PC this gen. Multiplatform games are buggy across the board at least on PC the community can offer up solutions and the platform holder doesn't cockblock fixes..

loganclaws · Feb 28, 2011

WanderingWind said:
Yeah...you also can't chide somebody for throwing around "elitist" and then go on to call them the lowest common denominator without coming across as a dick.

EDIT: Aw. He got banned? I liked that junior.

Well, I actually mean it in a literal way, he is the lowest common denominator for success in the developer's eyes, theoretically at least. Obviosly a developer like BioWare is aiming to attract the biggest audience.

Lostconfused · Feb 28, 2011

Sir Garbageman said:
I'm thinking of using my same strategy from DA1 and going 2 mages, 1 tank, 1 dual wielding rogue.

So my party will probably be:

Main PC spirit healer / force mage
Anders
Aveline
Isabela

Melee rogue seems to be rather weak judging based on the demo. Ranged rogue is a better choice since archers have an AoE as well. So you have 3 AoE characters, have the tank pick up the group and everyone else just rains death on them.

Snuggler said:
I only ask because I could just rent it for PS3 and get the gist of it without having to wait for a PC price drop, that would be the perfect solution for me.

Id say go with the console version in general. Besides the few visual difference here and there the game probably plays better on consoles.

Edit: Thought this thread would move faster.

Lostconfused · Feb 28, 2011

Door2Dawn · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
You mean you haven't encountered video game snobbery before now?

Not really

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

Coxswain said:
Considering how shallow and largely inconsequential the "skill" system in DAO was, no, it's not a particularly good example of depth.

Oh so when you receive the concrete examples that you challenged all comers to provide they then become, "Not particularly good"? Shocking...

Equipment I haven't been following closely enough to have an informed opinion on, but without knowing anything about it, 1) Not every permutation of equipment adds depth, and 2) Only the mechanical changes are required to preserve depth;

How informed of an opinion is required to understand that the options and mechanics involved in equipping and customizing your party in an RPG is "depth"?

The macro is a stupid point and shame on you for dredging it up repeatedly; as I said earlier, the only reason you can't do the exact same thing with DAO

That game mechanics allow for a simple 5 key macro to play the game on autopilot is not an indication of simplistic game mechanics? Well if you say so.

dalemurphy · Feb 28, 2011

kai3345 said:
Ok, then don't fucking play them.

But quit saying "Gamez need to be moar EZ" because developers are going to listen, and theyre going to think thats. what people want. Theres a million fucking action games out there, go play one of those. But, like you said, RPGs are few and far between these days, so quit trying to fucking ruin them.

Western RPGs are more popular than ever because they are more accessible than ever. You all sound like Ultima/Everquest fans who were bitching about WoW. Accessibility won out, and it will here, too.

However, this franchise won't break through until they improve the action mechanics in DA3. It doesn't need to be as complex as Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta, but it does need to feel good meaning that every hit feels solid and results in the appropriate enemy reaction, you must be able to block/counter/parry/dodge (some combination of these four), and you have to build the enemy AI/characters in a way that encourages a wide variety of tactics.

And of course, they should never take away the ability to pause the action to make tactical decisions, especially for bigger encounters and boss battles.

Calcaneus · Feb 28, 2011

Door2Dawn said:
Not really

How long have you been on GAF?

Oh, and greatest OP ever! I'm jizzing RIGHT NOW!

kai3345 · Feb 28, 2011

dalemurphy said:
Western RPGs are more popular than ever because they are more accessible than ever. You all sound like Ultima/Everquest fans who were bitching about WoW. Accessibility won out, and it will here, too.

because theyre either being turned into shooters or action games

and just because they are more popular/ accessible than ever doesn't make them better than ever

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