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Walshicus · Apr 22, 2011

I don't know. It'll be nice for Nintendo-only gamers to be able to play the titles the rest of us can... but this seems a bit too little for when it's launching, and will be outclassed when MS and Sony do their refreshes.

Will be good for 3rd parties though, at least until everyone switches to 720/PS4.

lwilliams3 · Apr 22, 2011

brain_stew said:
It always has and IGN don't give the (incorrect) series qualifier here, they say its a tweaked R700. I don't think Nintendo would go that high end but we can only go off the information we have. A 1600SP chip that no longer relies on AFR @ 32nm isn't goiing to consume 250w, but if Nintendo really are going to create a box as large as a 360 then that all but guarantees a 150-200w machine, there's no good reason to go that large otherwise. Considering the CPU should have a modest power draw then that means there has to be a pretty beastly 100w+ GPU in there.

I was wondering about the stated size of the console too. If the system is only going to be a little bit more powerful than a 360/PS3, I don't see why the console would be as big as the original 360. On a related note, how much GPU/CPU power will the system theoretically need to stream images into multiple controllers?

Eteric Rice · Apr 22, 2011

Sir Fragula said:
I don't know. It'll be nice for Nintendo-only gamers to be able to play the titles the rest of us can... but this seems a bit too little for when it's launching, and will be outclassed when MS and Sony do their refreshes.

Will be good for 3rd parties though, at least until everyone switches to 720/PS4.

I think they're trying to hit a middle ground between next gen and this gen. They want to be the PS2 of the next generation.

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

slidewinder said:
They first shipped 32nm silicon like what, 2 weeks ago? There are going to be plenty of 40nm process production lines around for a long time to come.

What part is that? I haven't seen any AMD GPUs at 32nm - It seems like Northern Islands is all 40, and Southern Islands will be 28.

Flying_Phoenix · Apr 22, 2011

Dead Man said:
Abandon for a shitty dual analogue? No. Include a good dual analogue controller? Maybe.

Shooters
Sports
Shoot-em-ups

Far better on a Wii-like controller.

Rest are up for debate.

Kintaro said:
I got a chuckle out of this Game Informer article.

What We Want From Nintendo's HD Console.

Long story short? They want a console like everyone else's with Nintendo games. Which is something I bet the majority of gamers want. I bet if this happens, they will just end up complaining that the console is like the others and it will become the "Nintendo Box" all over again. This time, a more expensive piece of hardware you "dust off" every now and again for Nintendo games.

Why don't people just buy a really nice PC? Console gamers are practically begging their companies to make their consoles as much like a PC anyway.

ReyVGM · Apr 22, 2011

Flying_Phoenix said:
Shooters

Why don't people just buy a really nice PC? Console gamers are practically begging their companies to make their consoles as much like a PC anyway.

Because buying a "nice PC" costs a few hundred dollars every few months.

Esperado · Apr 22, 2011

lwilliams3 said:
I was wondering about the stated size of the console too. If the system is only going to be a little bit more powerful than a 360/PS3, I don't see why the console would be as big as the original 360. On a related note, how much GPU/CPU power will the system theoretically need to stream images into multiple controllers?

It sounds to me like they're just rendering once and then splitting up parts of the framebuffer to send to each controller. Everyone would pretty much get a 480 x 270 slice of the 1920 * 1080 screen if that were true. And if it is, it might mean that every game would be forced to be rendered at 1080p, which is pretty sweet.

Regulus Tera · Apr 22, 2011

That controller is so Ugly

brain_stew · Apr 22, 2011

Krowley said:
I just wish one of you folks with a knowledge of the latest video card tech could point me to an example of the sort of graphical improvement this could potentially offer if the card specs are true. Is there anything on the PC market pushing to that level right now? Sreenshots or youtube vids of something equivalent?

Assuming a target resolution of 720p with modest IQ demands (say 2xmsaa and 4xaf) then anything from The Witcher 2 right through to that UDK tech demo, all depending upon just what that "tweaked r700" statement means.

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

Pocks said:
Take this with a massive grain of salt: One of the biggest gains with dual card setups in PCs is using multiple monitors.

Has little bearing. What does have bearing is that they'll need to compress and packetize the video to send it to the controllers. That's probably h.263 without a built-in codec or h.264 with a built-in codec.

I wonder if they'll send it as an RTP stream controlled by SIP. They could probably control the whole controller interaction with SIP and RTP.

Rated-Rsuperstar · Apr 22, 2011

Fall 2011? lol. I'm sure all the 3rd party games will be glorious with 4 months development time.

slidewinder · Apr 22, 2011

BMF said:
What part is that? I haven't seen any AMD GPUs at 32nm - It seems like Northern Islands is all 40, and Southern Islands will be 28.

None. I was just replying to brain_stew's statement to the effect that "AMD had already shipped 32nm silicon", which referred to CPUs.

Blutonium · Apr 22, 2011

HD Zelda, HD Metroid.

Good God...it...it is glorious.

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

slidewinder said:
None. I was just replying to brain_stew's statement to the effect that "AMD had already shipped 32nm silicon", which referred to CPUs.

Ah. Ok. Just making sure I hadn't missed something.

AniHawk · Apr 22, 2011

Rated-Rsuperstar said:
Fall 2011? lol. I'm sure all the 3rd party games will be glorious with 4 months development time.

the rumor, and the rumor behind the reason for all these rumors, is that 3rd parties have had devkits for months already.

edit: i'm assuming that any 2011/early 2012 launch would just have multiplatform games.

Freezie KO · Apr 22, 2011

Kintaro said:
I got a chuckle out of this Game Informer article.

What We Want From Nintendo's HD Console.

Long story short? They want a console like everyone else's with Nintendo games. Which is something I bet the majority of gamers want. I bet if this happens, they will just end up complaining that the console is like the others and it will become the "Nintendo Box" all over again. This time, a more expensive piece of hardware you "dust off" every now and again for Nintendo games.

So they basically want a PS3... but they want it to deliver the X Factor that only a risk-taking Nintendo can provide... as long as that means it comes with a standard traditional dual analog controller... because you can't make games like Bioshock or Mass Effect work if your two-handed controller is connected by a cord.

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

Rated-Rsuperstar said:
Fall 2011? lol. I'm sure all the 3rd party games will be glorious with 4 months development time.

I doubt we'll see many if any exclusive 3rd party games for this at launch if it is 2011. Lots of 3-way ports on the other hand seems plausible.

Kenka · Apr 22, 2011

Caramello said:
Perhaps you're the right guy to ask here:

Selling for $299: $193 left for system cost and profit
Selling for $349: $243 left for system cost and profit
Selling for $399: $293 left for system cost and profit

Would could Nintendo buy for each of the above?

For what you think is possible, while including costs of other parts (optical drive, storage, motherboard and casing etc) what price would need to be aimed for?

If you're not sure about costs etc, anyone else have input here?

When it comes to the cost per unit, you have to make sure what is your sales projections. If you only sell one wiimote, one nunchuk and one console, then the cost per unit is furiously huge. But if you sell 20 million of them, the cost per unit is also 20 million times less. Nintendo has spent a happy amount of money on R&D these last years. How much of it went into solutions that strictly imply raw calculating power ? No idea at all.

Our conversations should be based on market data. What pool of customers does Nintendo want to court in addition to all the ones they have now ? What could be interesting for prospecting customers ? What could make existing ones ask for more ? The answer is obvious, Nintendo will try to milk its existing customer base while going out loud for the hardcore. I wouldn't be surprised if they go the Cloud way. All investments go in the cloud infrastructure, devices prices are low, people get satisfying graphics. Hardcore and casuals alike don't pay much for their little box at home. Everybody has an internet connexion, right ?

Two questions : what kind of experience does Nintendo want to provide to Wii 2 customers ergonomy and accessibility-wise ? Furthermore, what content would be made available to them ? Also, but it is less important in this discussion, how will they sustain a decent revenue stream ?

I think we would get less gospel if we tackle things that way. What technology can bring new experiences while being inexpensive and appealing to all customers ? I guess the Cloud is one thing we should have an eye on. Wi-Fi based cloud is reliable and you could even play your games outside (if the 6-inch screen rumour is founded).

But I can't say how they intend to not make the 3DS look pale in comparision.

If this Cloud usage turns out to be true, specs inside won't need to be too beefy.

gofreak · Apr 22, 2011

lwilliams3 said:
I was wondering about the stated size of the console too. If the system is only going to be a little bit more powerful than a 360/PS3, I don't see why the console would be as big as the original 360. On a related note, how much GPU/CPU power will the system theoretically need to stream images into multiple controllers?

You don't inherently need a certain amount of power to render multiple 'screens'. Depends how complex the buffers being streamed. And the resolution of the screens.

I'd perhaps be thinking that more RAM would be useful here. Streaming up to 4 NGP-res screens + one 1080p screen = 4x the buffer requirements of a 720p game.

Michan · Apr 22, 2011

The images in the OP are fake. The proof is in the typography.

The Nintendo logo's kerning is completely messed up. Nintendo's logo has nice, even spacing between each letter. The author of this image has used the font "Pretendo", which isn't optimised for those letters being side-by-side.

Kenka · Apr 22, 2011

Michan said:
The images in the OP are fake. The proof is in the typography.

The Nintendo logo's kerning is completely messed up. Nintendo's logo has nice, even spacing between each letter. The author of this image has used the font "Pretendo", which isn't optimised for those letters being side-by-side.

Well done Sir.

Chittagong · Apr 22, 2011

Agree with Michan, and would add that it says Xbox 360(C) which makes absolutely no sense to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of how TM, R and C symbols are used.

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

Michan said:
The images in the OP are fake. The proof is in the typography.

The Nintendo logo's kerning is completely messed up. Nintendo's logo has nice, even spacing between each letter. The author of this image has used the font "Pretendo", which isn't optimised for those letters being side-by-side.

Could the guy that made the slides at Nintendo have used the Pretendo font instead of a SVG logo of some sort for text in his slide?

EDIT: I feel this is still plausible as a slide used for secretive pitches to other publishers.

Mr_Brit · Apr 22, 2011

Does anyone know what wireless transmission system they could use to stream 4 near HD videos simultaneously? It can't be Wifi as it would struggle over distance and suffers from interference and isn't reliable enough. It clearly can't be bluetooth for obvious reasons, what else is there that they could use?

Instro · Apr 22, 2011

ReyVGM said:
Because buying a "nice PC" costs a few hundred dollars every few months.

Well that's not true at all now is it.

Mr_Brit said:
Does anyone know what wireless transmission system they could use to stream 4 HD videos simultaneously? It can't be Wifi as it would struggle over distance and suffers from interference and isn't reliable enough. It clearly can't be bluetooth for obvious reasons, what else is there that they could use?

I remember someone answering this question in the other thread, but I dont recall what the tech was.

gofreak · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Does anyone know what wireless transmission system they could use to stream 4 HD videos simultaneously? It can't be Wifi as it would struggle over distance and suffers from interference and isn't reliable enough. It clearly can't be bluetooth for obvious reasons, what else is there that they could use?

The streams won't be HD, of that I'd be fairly sure. I would trust 01net's explicit qualification that they're not 720p over CVG/IGN's insistence of a HD screen. Remember NGP talk of a 'HD screen'?

Log4Girlz · Apr 22, 2011

Nintendo Stream "You're in the game now". Say it to yourself.

I would fucking love if each screen could play a different little game in situations where you are not using a main-line Stream game. Like, if I purchase a bunch of classic Nintendo games on Wiiware or Streamware it would be cool if each screen can play a totally separate game.

Mr_Brit · Apr 22, 2011

gofreak said:
The streams won't be HD, of that I'd be fairly sure. I would trust 01net's explicit qualification that they're not 720p over CVG/IGN's insistence of a HD screen. Remember NGP talk of a 'HD screen'?

Obviously, I didn't literally mean 720p but somewhere around NGP resolution.

Krowley · Apr 22, 2011

brain_stew said:
Assuming a target resolution of 720p with modest IQ demands (say 2xmsaa and 4xaf) then anything from The Witcher 2 right through to that UDK tech demo, all depending upon just what that "tweaked r700" statement means.

Thanks

Akibastman · Apr 22, 2011

I hope it's fake. It's too expensive and the pads will probably cost 100$ each. And it's less fun than a 4-player split screen. It's like playing DS with 3 friends but with better games.

Michan · Apr 22, 2011

BMF said:
Could the guy that made the slides at Nintendo have used the Pretendo font instead of a SVG logo of some sort for text in his slide?

That's possible, but extremely unlikely. Nintendo's graphic designers will have to conform to rigid guidelines when using the logo. Plus, since the vector is most likely within arm's reach, it would have taken far more effort to download and install the font.

There are many other things wrong about that image, as has been pointed out. But the fact that their branding is botched tells all.

eXistor · Apr 22, 2011

For all the shit Nintendo gets (and sometimes deservedly so) no other company can get me excited about videogames like them. Even after all these years they manage to feel like fun in the way it's supposed to be. Nothing against Sony or MS (I've played infinitely more on my 360 than Wii), but "fun"is not something I associate when I hear those names.

Coming E3 will be interesting indeed.

gofreak · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Obviously, I didn't literally mean 720p but somewhere around NGP resolution.

In that case, I believe there is tech out there for short-distance wireless transfer of 1080p res - which would accommodate 4 NGP-res streams for example. Dunno if you'd run into trouble pumping that up to 60hz though, but I'm sure 30 would be fine...

Does make me think if support for 4 quarter-1080p screens was on the table, it would back up the desire for a beefier GPU. If you wanted PS3/360-level graphics at 1080p on the TV, and support for same on up to 4 controllers at quarter-1080p each, then you'd want something ~4x more powerful than the PS3 and 360 GPUs. Of course, if a game isn't supporting that upper use-case it could spend more power on its single TV screen or whatever, but just as stereo3D compelled Nintendo to beef up 3DS's GPU, this model might have compelled a more powerful GPU than we might otherwise have got.

lwilliams3 · Apr 22, 2011

Esperado said:
It sounds to me like they're just rendering once and then splitting up parts of the framebuffer to send to each controller. Everyone would pretty much get a 480 x 270 slice of the 1920 * 1080 screen if that were true. And if it is, it might mean that every game would be forced to be rendered at 1080p, which is pretty sweet.

gofreak said:
You don't inherently need a certain amount of power to render multiple 'screens'. Depends how complex the buffers being streamed. And the resolution of the screens.

I'd perhaps be thinking that more RAM would be useful here. Streaming up to 4 NGP-res screens + one 1080p screen = 4x the buffer requirements of a 720p game.

That does make sense. Thanks for replying.

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Does anyone know what wireless transmission system they could use to stream 4 near HD videos simultaneously? It can't be Wifi as it would struggle over distance and suffers from interference and isn't reliable enough. It clearly can't be bluetooth for obvious reasons, what else is there that they could use?

That's highly dependent on resolution.

Refer to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels

Mr_Brit · Apr 22, 2011

gofreak said:
In that case, I believe there is tech out there for short-distance wireless transfer of 1080p res - which would accommodate 4 NGP-res streams for example. Dunno if you'd run into trouble pumping that up to 60hz though, but I'm sure 30 would be fine...

Does make me think if support for 4 quarter-1080p screens was on the table, it would back up the desire for a beefier GPU. If you wanted PS3/360-level graphics at 1080p on the TV, and support for same on up to 4 controllers at quarter-1080p each, then you'd want something ~4x more powerful than the PS3 and 360 GPUs. Of course, if a game isn't supporting that upper use-case it could spend more power on its single TV screen or whatever, but just as stereo3D compelled Nintendo to beef up 3DS's GPU, this model might have compelled a more powerful GPU than we might otherwise have got.

What about if the person is playing in SD or 4:3 resolution, would the console still render a 1080p buffer and split it 4 ways whilst also rendering a 640x480 for the TV? Wouldn't that cause problems with games where your touch on the controller is shown on the TV screen?

BMF said:
That's highly dependent on resolution.

Refer to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels

Huh? I know what H.264 is, I'm wondering what technology there is that can stream 4 near HD streams with good reliability, lag and range.

wonderfuldays · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Does anyone know what wireless transmission system they could use to stream 4 near HD videos simultaneously? It can't be Wifi as it would struggle over distance and suffers from interference and isn't reliable enough. It clearly can't be bluetooth for obvious reasons, what else is there that they could use?

WHDI

WHDI (Wireless Home Digital Interface) sets a new standard for wireless high-definition video connectivity. It provides a high-quality, uncompressed wireless link which can support delivery of equivalent video data rates of up to 3Gbps (including uncompressed 1080p) in a 40MHz channel in the 5GHz unlicensed band, conforming to worldwide 5GHz spectrum regulations. Range is beyond 100 feet, through walls, and latency is less than one millisecond.
WHDI Consortium was formed by Amimon, Hitachi, Motorola, Samsung, Sharp, Sony and LG Electronics.

Oh wait. lol

gofreak · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
What about if the person is playing in SD or 4:3 resolution, would the console still render a 1080p buffer and split it 4 ways whilst also rendering a 640x480 for the TV? Wouldn't that cause problems with games where your touch on the controller is shown on the TV screen?

Possibly but there's ways to compensate for that I'm sure. Transform/skew the input to map to a different aspect ratio etc. No expert though...

Grampa Simpson · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Huh? I know what H.264 is, I'm wondering what technology there is that can stream 4 near HD streams with good reliability, lag and range.

8VSB is very well proven.

swerve · Apr 22, 2011

Someone please answer these so that I can become a believer in those images in the OP.

swerve said:
-Why would you want one quarter of the screen streamed to you, rather than a separate image? Having a quarter of the screen streamed to you offers precisely *no* gameplay advancements. It just lets you play when someone is watching TV. It does nothing for 4-swords type gameplay *unless* the machine is capable of rendering 2x1080p images. :/

-What happens in one player or two player games? Why would I want only 1/4 of a 1080 image?

-Why would Nintendo make a game of Mario Kart which had all the action streamed to a local screen, rather than putting the map/weapons/sneaky secrets on the local screen?

-Why isn't there 'tm' or 'tentative name' next to 'Screen Stream'?

Mr_Brit · Apr 22, 2011

wonderfuldays said:
WHDI

Oh wait. lol

That sounds like it would do it but what are the costs of implementing such a system, I doubt that they could get the cost of a broadcasting unit in each console and 1 receiver in a controller below $100.

P.S: No one cares if they have to use a competitor's technology.

ThatObviousUser · Apr 22, 2011

Whatever happens they need to make Chrome as the browser this time around with controller-touchscreen-as-trackpad-and-also-as-a-keyboard support. The browser on this thing could be pretty damn awesome if they did it right.

Mr_Brit · Apr 22, 2011

Andrex said:
Whatever happens they need to make Chrome as the browser this time around with controller-touchscreen-as-trackpad-and-also-as-a-keyboard support. The browser on this thing could be pretty damn awesome if they did it right.

Nintendo and Sony need to stay as far away from their browsers as possible since it's been proven they don't know the first thing when it comes to designing them. I really hope Sony use someone like Google or Mozilla to construct the NGP browser.

brain_stew · Apr 22, 2011

BMF said:
What part is that? I haven't seen any AMD GPUs at 32nm - It seems like Northern Islands is all 40, and Southern Islands will be 28.

Llano integrates a DX11 AMD GPU with a CPU on a 32nm SOI process from Global Foundries and started shipping at the start of the month.

SidVicious · Apr 22, 2011

Michan said:
The images in the OP are fake. The proof is in the typography.

You the man.

neoanarch · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Nintendo and Sony need to stay as far away from their browsers as possible since it's been proven they don't know the first thing when it comes to designing them. I really hope Sony use someone like Google or Mozilla to construct the NGP browser.

But Opera did the Nintendo browser.

I hope they keep developing it, Opera has the best non-PC browser available.

ThatObviousUser · Apr 22, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
Nintendo and Sony need to stay as far away from their browsers as possible since it's been proven they don't know the first thing when it comes to designing them. I really hope Sony use someone like Google or Mozilla to construct the NGP browser.

Well Nintendo's been outsourcing it to Opera, who make what I would call the second best desktop browsers, but whether because the systems were underpowered or for interface reasons, their Nintendo browsers have always been really sub-par.

c_k_i_t3 · Apr 22, 2011

Images in the OP are fake according to Jim Reilly of IGN.

https://twitter.com/#!/jimreilly/status/61331254418743296

Mr_Brit · Apr 22, 2011

neoanarch said:
But Opera did the Nintendo browser.

I hope they keep developing it, Opera has the best non-PC browser available.

Every single console or handheld browser so far has been utterly pathetic. Opera clearly can't design good console or handheld browsers going by their efforts on the Wii and DS so let's hope Nintendo go for someone completely different this time. I'm sure both Sony and Nintendo will go for something Webkit based for the Wii 2 and NGP.

Izayoi · Apr 22, 2011

Andrex said:
Well Nintendo's been outsourcing it to Opera, who make what I would call the second best desktop browsers, but whether because the systems were underpowered or for interface reasons, their Nintendo browsers have always been really sub-par.

With the advent of the 3DS browser Nintendo is no longer working with Opera, though.

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