There were other guys that experimentated with polygons on GBA on those days.TacticalFox88 said:
For example Prograph Research:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleV3OIUZmE
Rareware's voxel engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIAy_B7MD7k
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Who had the best graphics: DS or Ps1?
- Thread starter BDGAME
- Start date
For example Prograph Research:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleV3OIUZmE
Rareware's voxel engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIAy_B7MD7k
KeioSquad2
Member
The ds. It has a z-buffer so everything looks where it should in a 3d space. The ps1 could push more poly's, but only the best ones used a software z-buffer and most all had no filter or perspective correction.
sixteen-bit
Member
Wouldn't an LCD from 10 years ago suffer from both incredible lag and ghosting?K.Jack said:
MikeE21286
Member
wsippel said:
now that's nuts
Bel Marduk
Banned
That COP game looks really good for like no reason. Good scale too. Puts everyone to shame.
Also DQ IX looks impressive for a DS game graphically. Problem is that the game looks really generic art wise :x
Also DQ IX looks impressive for a DS game graphically. Problem is that the game looks really generic art wise :x
Bel Marduk
Banned
Goldmund said:
I'm mostly talking about the backgrounds and dungeons and towns and such. To me it seemed very plain and generic. Almost no impressive vistas either. DQ VIII was much better with this.
Risk Breaker
Member
RRT4 vs C.O.P... really? PSX wins for me.
DS is definitely beyond the PSX. Aside from producing games running at higher framerates more often, it offers perspective correct texture mapping (the lack of which ruined the visuals of many a PSX game). It's simply more capable hardware (as it should be considering it was released more than 10 years after PSX). What's more of a shame is that 3DS doesn't seem to be up to the same level as Gamecube, XBOX, or even PS2. Of course, it's still early, so things could change.
_dementia said:
I don't know about the lag on those sets (don't think they had any processing), but the old LCDs Sony used to use in their kiosks were a monstrosity when it came to ghosting. Made the launch PS2 look like a freaking Atari 2600 the way everything was a blocky, chunky mess.
Aeana said:
I was actually thinking the same thing minutes after I posted. LoM is a lot more consistent graphically though.
In Shantae though it really does seem like the game was once episodic and they rushed through the art on the later stages. The first few areas that you open up are jaw droppingly cool, especially the different layers in the forest. The dungeon is still a bit drab but hey, dungeon. Later on the landscape art calms down a bit.
Magicpaint
Member
Really? It happened a lot to me during my Solatorobo play timeAeana said:
Not as bad as Okamiden, but very noticeable? How odd.But yes, DS models are usually more complex (because 3D modelling has come a long way since PS1 days), but the games on average seem to push far less polygons and usually have fewer enemies on screen. DS also struggles with some effects like transparency, that's why something like Tales of Eternia on PS1 has far prettier looking spells than Tales of Hearts.
jett said:The DS obviously, but it's relatively close. You also have to factor the fact that developers are much better today at modeling, animating and texturing than they were 15 years ago.
Actually I'd say the gap isn't that big. Many artists of today don't have to touch low poly stuff at all. iOS is bringing the renaissance of low-poly back though!
Graphics Horse
Member
Wow Asterix GBA is a new one to me, I guess that's by the V-Rally guys?
On your command.Aeana said:
I'd say it's a tie. The DS is better than the PS1 in a lot of areas, the PS1 advantages all contributing to making the top PS1 games look better (in overall) than DS games.
- Renders at 18-bit color: providing a clean image free of dithering;
- Perspective correct texture mapping avoids the "zig-zag" or "wavy" textures seen on PS1 games;
- Polygons shake/snap a lot less in DS games due to higher precision geometry transformations (32-bits versus 12-bits);
- True skeletal animation due to much faster CPU and hardware-accelerated transform & lighting;
- Hardware-accelerated polygon clipping and backface culling.
- Hardware support for cel-shading, outlines, stencil-buffer and reflection mapping;
- Free edge antialiasing.
But the PS1 had some advantages:
- 600~700MB discs (being able to use multiple discs if needed), while most DS games are smaller than 256MBs.
- Supports additive and substractive blending modes, while the DS only supports alpha-blending (like the N64 did);
- Higher polygon throughput (180K tris/s versus 120K tris/s on the DS);
- More flexible rendering pipeline (but harder to program for);
- The top-games had much bigger budgets than DS games;
The DS has a very strange way of dealing with polygons, in that it always runs at 60fps and draws 2048 polygons per frame. Only polygons which are visible on the screen count for that number (after clipping/culling) and anything over that is simply skipped. If you want your game to run at 30fps and get twice the polygons you need to jump through hoops and draw the scene in two passes, sacrificing some VRAM and dropping from 18bpp to 16bpp to do so.
The PS1 would just reduce the framerate if you pushed more than 3000 triangles per frame. So a 20fps game could push 9K triangles per frame (FFIX battles).
The budget/development philosophy was very different: the top PS1 games were bona-fied blockbusters where developers were constantly attempting to out-do each other in technical prowess while even the top DS games are developed with a safer and more budget-conscious approach.
Crash Bandicoot is a great example: there's nothing on the DS like it (but the Wizard of Oz game gets very close - and runs at 60fps). But if you read the article about it, there's nothing preventing a DS game from using the same streaming technique. But it's such a ludicrous and laborious technique that no DS dev would get a budget approved for that.
There aren't much shmups these days, but Shin'en developed a couple ones in the early years of DS lifespan.spats said:
Try check Nanostray 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4TNKofBOh4
Heart of Black
Member
The PS1 was missing a very core component that the N64 & the DS had, something to do with keeping everything from stuttering. Every PS1 game that I ever saw stuttered whenever the camera moved because the system was struggling to make sure the polygons and textures stayed where they belonged.
It ruins games like Chrono Cross for me when I play them on PC with Bleem. It's a lot less noticeable on the PSP, but still very noticeable regardless.
Also the texture flickering problem always bugged me.
I was never a big fan of the PSX from a hardware standpoint.
Edit: Mentioned in better detail above.
It ruins games like Chrono Cross for me when I play them on PC with Bleem. It's a lot less noticeable on the PSP, but still very noticeable regardless.
Also the texture flickering problem always bugged me.
I was never a big fan of the PSX from a hardware standpoint.
Edit: Mentioned in better detail above.
I'd like to add that the DS has a clear advantage over the PS1 in 60fps games: it can use all of its VRAM for textures (the PS1 has less VRAM and must use some of it for front/back buffers), use the highest IQ and still have the entire CPU free for running the game.
On the PS1 the CPU was often the bottleneck. There was an interview about a canned PS1 port of Quake 1, done by Lobotomy (the guys who did the Saturn port). There they said the PS1 graphics chip ran circles around the Saturn's: it could run the same levels from the Saturn version at solid 60fps. But when they added collision and enemies, the CPU couldn't keep up and the game dropped to 30fps.
On the PS1 the CPU was often the bottleneck. There was an interview about a canned PS1 port of Quake 1, done by Lobotomy (the guys who did the Saturn port). There they said the PS1 graphics chip ran circles around the Saturn's: it could run the same levels from the Saturn version at solid 60fps. But when they added collision and enemies, the CPU couldn't keep up and the game dropped to 30fps.
Magicpaint
Member
Great post!M3d10n said:
staticneuron
Member
BDGAME said:
The comparison is pointless not because it is "retro" but because
1. You are comparing a more powerful machine (the DS) with a weaker one (the PS1)
2. You are comparing tech and developer know how that is separated by a decade.
It is one thing to ask what looks people prefer, but to ask which one is more powerful, simply could have been solved by looking at the specs.
EDIT: NVM M3d10n put it best. Serves me right for not reading through thread.
C.O.P looks better, but look other game:Risk Breaker said:
Ridge Racer Type 4 - Ps1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwBh02TFN_0
Race Driver: Create & Race - DS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYaFPCwHKjY
Magicpaint said:
Chrono Cross uses 2d backgrounds, Grandia and Xenogears uses sprites, while in DQIX pretty much everything is polygonal, except for NPCs. It also uses an outline effect on characters that definitely wouldn't be possible on PSX, and the texture resolution is generally much higher than in either of those games
Tain said:
The difference in resolution isn't really that great. Pretty much every ps1 game ran in 320x240, while the DS screens are 256x192. So the games that had the same view across both screens actually had more pixels, though admittedly in a very weird setup.
staticneuron
Member
BDGAME said:
I guess. I am just used to thinking that there should be a separation between technical facts and subjective opinion.
It rarely works out that way nowadays, though.
Not even Crash Bandicoot?nincompoop said:
That game was decent, but I totally agree with you. The DS is pretty capable, but even with Solatorobo, DQ and C.O.P., I don't think the DS could have done Crash Bandicoot.
...Or what M3d10n said
It's all in all equivalent when you play the game. It's just that the OP comparison is off. (like most people trying to make comparisons mind you).
You're comparing old footage in shit compression blown up in the screen vs newer, smaller, quality footage of the best looking DS games. This will push an advantage to the DS right there. Also, for the comparison to be valid, you'd have to compare the same types of games. The end product and what you can do visually is extremely dependant on the genre of game you make. And the more you go back in time, the more this is true.
You're comparing old footage in shit compression blown up in the screen vs newer, smaller, quality footage of the best looking DS games. This will push an advantage to the DS right there. Also, for the comparison to be valid, you'd have to compare the same types of games. The end product and what you can do visually is extremely dependant on the genre of game you make. And the more you go back in time, the more this is true.
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